MOTM

Just got finished building my first 300, and my apartment complex fixed the 
power problem I've had for months, so I don't have to leave the house to 
play!! My sounds are good, my cats are climbing the walls, my significant 
other won't talk to me.... life is great!

BTW: I'm sure that some people out there have designed patch sheets for 
their systems.... What types of programs would be good for drawing up 
something like this?

James, a happy bastard
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Hi group,

It seems like this is "sneak peek" week, but it truly is a coincidence. This
image is my first graphic attempt and I was interested in your feedback.

http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG

It has 5 toggle switches along the right side (which aren't drawn in, there
are just white holes in place). They perform various functions and I'm not
going to explain them in hopes the text and graphics can do it for me. If a
majority of you ask "what's that do" then I guess the image WILL need
further explanation. I'm looking for feedback regarding the numbers around
the pots, the missing numbers, and if it looks ok without them, the lack of
the stage indication (I thought there were too many numbers cluttering up
the panel as it is). Maybe there should be no numbers around the pots, but
SHOULD be numbers for each of the stages. Is the graphic near the bottom
useful? Is it in the way? Stuff like that.

Anyway, this module is quite real, and I think will be a good addition to
Paul's lineup. A 4 stage ADSR is not enough for me.

Regards,

Tony Karavidas
Encore Electronics

http://www.encoreelectronics.com

Designers of "The best MIDI to CV converter on the planet." -Keyboard Oct.
1997

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tony Karavidas <tony@...>
> Hi group,

> It seems like this is "sneak peek" week, but it truly is a
> coincidence. This image is my first graphic attempt and
> I was interested in your feedback.
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG

Wow Tony !!   Very cool.  Since you asked...  In general, the panel is too
crowded for my personal taste.  However, I can see why you would do it that
way to get the time and level pots in rows.  And, if someone was concerned
with real estate, this answers that by cramming a lot into a little space.
For me, I like the feel of the interface with the bigger knobs and spacing.
That was one of the things that attracted me to MOTM in the beginning.  Of
course, that would make the module 4 Units wide instead of 2.  I would make
that trade off, other might not.

> Anyway, this module is quite real, and I think will be a good
> addition to Paul's lineup. A 4 stage ADSR is not enough for me.

I agree wholeheartedly.  I fell in love with EGs controlled like this when
the Casio CZ-101 came out.  I have always liked the concept of stages with
time and level instead of defining what each stage actually is (like a lot
of my stupid Korg stuff).  The looping concept is new to me, but I can see
how this would be a great feature to have.  So, functionally, the module
looks great to me.

Larry Hendry

Tony,

Very cool indeed!  Here's my comments:
- It is kinda tightly packed.  I'd be willing to go for 6 stages to get more room.
- I do like the pairing of the time and level controls
- I don't think the individual stage LEDs are very useful.  If you need a LED, put
one on the output so it brightens in proportion to the signal.
- I didn't get the TCV input.  What's that?
- I also don't get the switch on the lower right.  I initially thought it was for
exponential vs. linear but I don't get the relationship between the three choices. 
Maybe this is because I haven't used Casios...
- The numbers around the knobs are OK but as I said above, reducing the number of
stages might make it look neater.
- An absolutely crucial element for such an EG is the minimum attack time.  I hope
this is in the very few ms range!  
- Are you planning to use the same mechanical stuff as Paul (e.g. panels, paint,
graphics, etc.)?

It would be nice to see the high quality MOTM form factor used in more compatible
modules.  It would be a nice to have high quality competition to the
Doepfer/Analogue Systems/Analogue Solutions and Paia/Wiard/Blacet/FracRac stuff.  I
hope there are others out there, either offered through Paul or otherwise!

Eric

--- Tony Karavidas <tony@...> wrote:
> Hi group,
> 
> It seems like this is "sneak peek" week, but it truly is a coincidence. This
> image is my first graphic attempt and I was interested in your feedback.
> 
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
> 
> It has 5 toggle switches along the right side (which aren't drawn in, there
> are just white holes in place). They perform various functions and I'm not
> going to explain them in hopes the text and graphics can do it for me. If a
> majority of you ask "what's that do" then I guess the image WILL need
> further explanation. I'm looking for feedback regarding the numbers around
> the pots, the missing numbers, and if it looks ok without them, the lack of
> the stage indication (I thought there were too many numbers cluttering up
> the panel as it is). Maybe there should be no numbers around the pots, but
> SHOULD be numbers for each of the stages. Is the graphic near the bottom
> useful? Is it in the way? Stuff like that.
> 
> Anyway, this module is quite real, and I think will be a good addition to
> Paul's lineup. A 4 stage ADSR is not enough for me.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tony Karavidas
> Encore Electronics
> 
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com
> 
> Designers of "The best MIDI to CV converter on the planet." -Keyboard Oct.
> 1997
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail \ufffd Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Can I presume the Loop only mode turns it into a 
multistage LFO?  That's very useful.  If so, please add 
an overall time control for all stages as well as a 
modulation attentuator for TCV.

You might consider an end pulse out as on the Dual 
Universal Slope Generator.  It allows chaining together 
units end to end for even more stages.

The graphics look good.  I would prefer to keep the 
envelope drawing showing the stages.  Numbering each 
stage would be beneficial but I honestly don't see where 
you could fit it.

Large knobs was a reason I bought MOTM, but I generally 
need them for frequency and some modulation inputs, not 
envelopes.  I would rather have the smaller knobs on 
this unit than a 4U panel.

John Loffink
microtonal@...

> Hi group,
> 
> It seems like this is "sneak peek" week, but it truly is a coincidence. This
> image is my first graphic attempt and I was interested in your feedback.
> 
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
> 
> It has 5 toggle switches along the right side (which aren't drawn in, there
> are just white holes in place). They perform various functions and I'm not
> going to explain them in hopes the text and graphics can do it for me. If a
> majority of you ask "what's that do" then I guess the image WILL need
> further explanation. I'm looking for feedback regarding the numbers around
> the pots, the missing numbers, and if it looks ok without them, the lack of
> the stage indication (I thought there were too many numbers cluttering up
> the panel as it is). Maybe there should be no numbers around the pots, but
> SHOULD be numbers for each of the stages. Is the graphic near the bottom
> useful? Is it in the way? Stuff like that.
> 
> Anyway, this module is quite real, and I think will be a good addition to
> Paul's lineup. A 4 stage ADSR is not enough for me.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tony Karavidas
> Encore Electronics
> 
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com
> 
> Designers of "The best MIDI to CV converter on the planet." -Keyboard Oct.
> 1997
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Hi Eric,

The TCV is a "Time Control Voltage." It can shrink or stretch the envelope,
while keeping the relationship of the 15 knobs.

The switch with the waveforms controls how the unit progresses from one
stage to the next. It is either linear, exponential, or stepped.

The top switch (you didn't ask, but I thought I'd explain anyway) controls
the major mode of the module. "Loop only" (as someone guessed) configures it
as a complex LFO. In "One shot" mode, the stages will progress once only;
the gate will not hold it in any sustain pattern but rather trigger the
module. The "Gated loop" is more like a standard gated ADSR, but the sustain
portion can have a complex loop anywhere between stages 2 through 4 and 5
through 7. The "End gate" switch controls the behavior when the gate is
released. If the switch is up, the module will complete all stages in the
loop, otherwise it will immediately go to the final release time stage.

Yes I agree about the minimum attack time. A goal is to get the attack under
1mS.

Paul and I use different graphics tools and I know the font he uses, but I
don't have the exact one. I'm trying to make it look very close so when it's
in a system, it's a natural addition. The knobs are smaller versions of the
ones he uses, but the mounting of the board is completely different. There
is no information on cost or kit availability yet.

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: alt-mode [mailto:alt_mode@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 6:21 AM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
>
>
> Tony,
>
> Very cool indeed!  Here's my comments:
> - It is kinda tightly packed.  I'd be willing to go for 6 stages
> to get more room.
> - I do like the pairing of the time and level controls
> - I don't think the individual stage LEDs are very useful.  If
> you need a LED, put
> one on the output so it brightens in proportion to the signal.
> - I didn't get the TCV input.  What's that?
> - I also don't get the switch on the lower right.  I initially
> thought it was for
> exponential vs. linear but I don't get the relationship between
> the three choices.
> Maybe this is because I haven't used Casios...
> - The numbers around the knobs are OK but as I said above,
> reducing the number of
> stages might make it look neater.
> - An absolutely crucial element for such an EG is the minimum
> attack time.  I hope
> this is in the very few ms range!
> - Are you planning to use the same mechanical stuff as Paul (e.g.
> panels, paint,
> graphics, etc.)?
>
> It would be nice to see the high quality MOTM form factor used in
> more compatible
> modules.  It would be a nice to have high quality competition to the
> Doepfer/Analogue Systems/Analogue Solutions and
> Paia/Wiard/Blacet/FracRac stuff.  I
> hope there are others out there, either offered through Paul or otherwise!
>
> Eric
>
> --- Tony Karavidas <tony@...> wrote:
> > Hi group,
> >
> > It seems like this is "sneak peek" week, but it truly is a
> coincidence. This
> > image is my first graphic attempt and I was interested in your feedback.
> >
> > http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
> >
> > It has 5 toggle switches along the right side (which aren't
> drawn in, there
> > are just white holes in place). They perform various functions
> and I'm not
> > going to explain them in hopes the text and graphics can do it
> for me. If a
> > majority of you ask "what's that do" then I guess the image WILL need
> > further explanation. I'm looking for feedback regarding the
> numbers around
> > the pots, the missing numbers, and if it looks ok without them,
> the lack of
> > the stage indication (I thought there were too many numbers
> cluttering up
> > the panel as it is). Maybe there should be no numbers around
> the pots, but
> > SHOULD be numbers for each of the stages. Is the graphic near the bottom
> > useful? Is it in the way? Stuff like that.
> >
> > Anyway, this module is quite real, and I think will be a good
> addition to
> > Paul's lineup. A 4 stage ADSR is not enough for me.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Tony Karavidas
> > Encore Electronics
> >
> > http://www.encoreelectronics.com
> >
> > Designers of "The best MIDI to CV converter on the planet."
> -Keyboard Oct.
> > 1997
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>

--- In motm@egroups.com, "Tony Karavidas" <tony@e...> wrote:

> Paul and I use different graphics tools and I know the font he 
uses, but I
> don't have the exact one. I'm trying to make it look very close so 
when it's
> in a system, it's a natural addition. The knobs are smaller 
versions of the
> ones he uses, but the mounting of the board is completely 
different. There
> is no information on cost or kit availability yet.
> 

Tony, the module looks awesome. I'm not sure yet which camp I fall 
into - the "less crowded" or the "gimme all the functionality" camp. 
I am planning to use slightly more crowded spacing for my DIY 
sequencers, however. I'd probably have to lay some knobs out on a 
paper panel mockup and see if I could comfortably reach everything.

Are you planning to use the MOTM power connectors?

Dave

Yes, it's getting the MOTM connectors for good reasons. :)

(And yes, I'm still working on the code for the Expressionist.)

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Bradley [mailto:daveb@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 8:31 AM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: [motm] Re: MOTM compatible module
> 
> 
> --- In motm@egroups.com, "Tony Karavidas" <tony@e...> wrote:
> 
> > Paul and I use different graphics tools and I know the font he 
> uses, but I
> > don't have the exact one. I'm trying to make it look very close so 
> when it's
> > in a system, it's a natural addition. The knobs are smaller 
> versions of the
> > ones he uses, but the mounting of the board is completely 
> different. There
> > is no information on cost or kit availability yet.
> > 
> 
> Tony, the module looks awesome. I'm not sure yet which camp I fall 
> into - the "less crowded" or the "gimme all the functionality" camp. 
> I am planning to use slightly more crowded spacing for my DIY 
> sequencers, however. I'd probably have to lay some knobs out on a 
> paper panel mockup and see if I could comfortably reach everything.
> 
> Are you planning to use the MOTM power connectors?
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

How about making a 10U tall module with the proper 
screw holes in the middle so the module actually took 
up two rows tall, used the larger MOTM knobs, and kept 
the knobs in the desired "rows"??

Steve

> Hi Eric,
>
> The TCV is a "Time Control Voltage." It can shrink or 
stretch the envelope,
> while keeping the relationship of the 15 knobs.
>
> The switch with the waveforms controls how the unit 
progresses from one
> stage to the next. It is either linear, exponential, 
or stepped.
>
> The top switch (you didn't ask, but I thought I'd 
explain anyway) controls
> the major mode of the module. "Loop only" (as someone 
guessed) configures
> it
> as a complex LFO. In "One shot" mode, the stages will 
progress once only;
> the gate will not hold it in any sustain pattern but 
rather trigger the
> module. The "Gated loop" is more like a standard 
gated ADSR, but the
> sustain
> portion can have a complex loop anywhere between 
stages 2 through 4 and 5
> through 7. The "End gate" switch controls the 
behavior when the gate is
> released. If the switch is up, the module will 
complete all stages in the
> loop, otherwise it will immediately go to the final 
release time stage.
>
> Yes I agree about the minimum attack time. A goal is 
to get the attack
> under
> 1mS.
>
> Paul and I use different graphics tools and I know 
the font he uses, but I
> don't have the exact one. I'm trying to make it look 
very close so when
> it's
> in a system, it's a natural addition. The knobs are 
smaller versions of the
> ones he uses, but the mounting of the board is 
completely different. There
> is no information on cost or kit availability yet.
>
> Tony
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: alt-mode [mailto:alt_mode@...]
> > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 6:21 AM
> > To: motm@egroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
> >
> >
> > Tony,
> >
> > Very cool indeed!  Here's my comments:
> > - It is kinda tightly packed.  I'd be willing to go 
for 6 stages
> > to get more room.
> > - I do like the pairing of the time and level 
controls
> > - I don't think the individual stage LEDs are very 
useful.  If
> > you need a LED, put
> > one on the output so it brightens in proportion to 
the signal.
> > - I didn't get the TCV input.  What's that?
> > - I also don't get the switch on the lower right.  
I initially
> > thought it was for
> > exponential vs. linear but I don't get the 
relationship between
> > the three choices.
> > Maybe this is because I haven't used Casios...
> > - The numbers around the knobs are OK but as I said 
above,
> > reducing the number of
> > stages might make it look neater.
> > - An absolutely crucial element for such an EG is 
the minimum
> > attack time.  I hope
> > this is in the very few ms range!
> > - Are you planning to use the same mechanical stuff 
as Paul (e.g.
> > panels, paint,
> > graphics, etc.)?
> >
> > It would be nice to see the high quality MOTM form 
factor used in
> > more compatible
> > modules.  It would be a nice to have high quality 
competition to the
> > Doepfer/Analogue Systems/Analogue Solutions and
> > Paia/Wiard/Blacet/FracRac stuff.  I
> > hope there are others out there, either offered 
through Paul or
> otherwise!
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > --- Tony Karavidas <tony@...> 
wrote:
> > > Hi group,
> > >
> > > It seems like this is "sneak peek" week, but it 
truly is a
> > coincidence. This
> > > image is my first graphic attempt and I was 
interested in your
> feedback.
> > >
> > > http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
> > >
> > > It has 5 toggle switches along the right side 
(which aren't
> > drawn in, there
> > > are just white holes in place). They perform 
various functions
> > and I'm not
> > > going to explain them in hopes the text and 
graphics can do it
> > for me. If a
> > > majority of you ask "what's that do" then I guess 
the image WILL need
> > > further explanation. I'm looking for feedback 
regarding the
> > numbers around
> > > the pots, the missing numbers, and if it looks ok 
without them,
> > the lack of
> > > the stage indication (I thought there were too 
many numbers
> > cluttering up
> > > the panel as it is). Maybe there should be no 
numbers around
> > the pots, but
> > > SHOULD be numbers for each of the stages. Is the 
graphic near the
> bottom
> > > useful? Is it in the way? Stuff like that.
> > >
> > > Anyway, this module is quite real, and I think 
will be a good
> > addition to
> > > Paul's lineup. A 4 stage ADSR is not enough for 
me.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Tony Karavidas
> > > Encore Electronics
> > >
> > > http://www.encoreelectronics.com
> > >
> > > Designers of "The best MIDI to CV converter on 
the planet."
> > -Keyboard Oct.
> > > 1997
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from 
anywhere!

> > http://mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>
>

Tony,

Thanks for the explanation.  I had figured out the looping but TCV and the step
switch didn't hit me right off the bat.  These features have some very interesting
possibilities!

> Paul and I use different graphics tools and I know the font he uses, but I
> don't have the exact one. I'm trying to make it look very close so when it's
> in a system, it's a natural addition. The knobs are smaller versions of the
> ones he uses, but the mounting of the board is completely different. There
> is no information on cost or kit availability yet.
> 
I'm less concerned about knob size than I am about panel finish and color.  Getting
the same powder coat and gloss can keep it from really sticking out in a system (I
almost can't believe I just typed those words.  I usually don't care too much about
asthetics).  I saw a picture of a synthesizers.com module next to some Moog modules
recently and the mismatch of finish really did stick out.

It does look like your board mounting will be different.  I would be nice keep to
the same limits Paul has used with the 4" or so depth.  It would be bad if the folks
with SKB cases couldn't fit your module in the case.

I'd certainly go for at least one of these modules!

Eric


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail \ufffd Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Youch, no!  That might work fine in an SKB case but for cabinets with wood between
rows that would be very difficult!

Eric

--- steve@... wrote:
> How about making a 10U tall module with the proper 
> screw holes in the middle so the module actually took 
> up two rows tall, used the larger MOTM knobs, and kept 
> the knobs in the desired "rows"??
> 
> Steve
> 



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail \ufffd Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Tony,
One of my favorite cv aspects are envelope generators, I wholeheartedly
support your efforts.  I could really 'sink into' an eg like this.  A few
comments (possibly reinforcing previous good comments):
- Because the time and level  'values' are relative, you may want to
eliminate the value numbers and instead label the stages.  (We can assume
that the values are positive.)
- As reinforcement to some previous comments, if you are 'targeting'
incorporation into a motm setup, then the more 'motm-ish' it looks, the
better.  IMO exact motm look is not required, but it would be nice.
Possibly a 3 unit (4 units would take a lot of space)
would be more ergonomic than a 2 unit space.  The 'connection lines' from
switches to sets of knobs is very nice, but it might be possible to put
the switches between the LEVEL knob column and the jacks.  Clear
labeling of the switches would indicate their function (tho' I suppose the
nice envelope graphic would have to go).

 - As previously mentioned, module depth not more that 4 - 5"
would advantageous for those of us that have built 'narrow' depth cabinets
(or SKB cases).

- Pushing limits here: what about individual cv control jacks for TIME or
LEVEL (or both)?  Too big of a panel (even putting the switches below)?

- Instead of "Universal Envelope Generator" how about "Advanced Envelope
Generator" (few things are really 'universal')?

Anyway, the above are trivial compared to the ideas and effort you put
into this - great proposal!

Jeff

In a message dated 8/21/00 10:21:51 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tony@... writes:

> The TCV is a "Time Control Voltage." It can shrink or stretch the envelope,
>  while keeping the relationship of the 15 knobs.
>  
>  The switch with the waveforms controls how the unit progresses from one
>  stage to the next. It is either linear, exponential, or stepped.
>  
>  The top switch (you didn't ask, but I thought I'd explain anyway) controls
>  the major mode of the module. "Loop only" (as someone guessed) configures 
it
>  as a complex LFO. In "One shot" mode, the stages will progress once only;
>  the gate will not hold it in any sustain pattern but rather trigger the
>  module. The "Gated loop" is more like a standard gated ADSR, but the 
sustain
>  portion can have a complex loop anywhere between stages 2 through 4 and 5
>  through 7. The "End gate" switch controls the behavior when the gate is
>  released. If the switch is up, the module will complete all stages in the
>  loop, otherwise it will immediately go to the final release time stage.
>  
>  Yes I agree about the minimum attack time. A goal is to get the attack 
under
>  1mS.

 I think the LFO mode is a GREAT feature. Definitely expands the usefulness 
of have a multistage EG.

Would it also be possible to have it function as a tracking generator (OB 
Xpander style)? I know I'm probably dreaming here, but I'd love to have a CV 
IN modifiable by each level (times defeated or ignored). This "scaling" of 
any CV-able function would be a great tool in a modular synth.

 I love the LEDs for each level! This will help in keeping track of the 
active stage and will look great (IMO). I'm all for the cosmetic-aesthetic 
thing. Especially if it serves a purpose.  : )

 About the only other feature that I can think of to add to this wish list: 
 
 How about a "Split Mode".  Since there are eight stages with independent 
times/levels, how about being able to split the EG in two to use as two 
independent four stage EGs ?

 I'd be willing to lose the env. graphic at the bottom to gain more real 
estate for knobs/jack or what-not. 

 Here's hoping!
  Andrew Sanchez

whats the pricepoint your lookin got hit?, anything over $250 for me for a
envelope generator would be tough to justify
Jim

ixqy@... wrote:

> In a message dated 8/21/00 10:21:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
> tony@... writes:
>
> > The TCV is a "Time Control Voltage." It can shrink or stretch the envelope,
> >  while keeping the relationship of the 15 knobs.
> >
> >  The switch with the waveforms controls how the unit progresses from one
> >  stage to the next. It is either linear, exponential, or stepped.
> >
> >  The top switch (you didn't ask, but I thought I'd explain anyway) controls
> >  the major mode of the module. "Loop only" (as someone guessed) configures
> it
> >  as a complex LFO. In "One shot" mode, the stages will progress once only;
> >  the gate will not hold it in any sustain pattern but rather trigger the
> >  module. The "Gated loop" is more like a standard gated ADSR, but the
> sustain
> >  portion can have a complex loop anywhere between stages 2 through 4 and 5
> >  through 7. The "End gate" switch controls the behavior when the gate is
> >  released. If the switch is up, the module will complete all stages in the
> >  loop, otherwise it will immediately go to the final release time stage.
> >
> >  Yes I agree about the minimum attack time. A goal is to get the attack
> under
> >  1mS.
>
>  I think the LFO mode is a GREAT feature. Definitely expands the usefulness
> of have a multistage EG.
>
> Would it also be possible to have it function as a tracking generator (OB
> Xpander style)? I know I'm probably dreaming here, but I'd love to have a CV
> IN modifiable by each level (times defeated or ignored). This "scaling" of
> any CV-able function would be a great tool in a modular synth.
>
>  I love the LEDs for each level! This will help in keeping track of the
> active stage and will look great (IMO). I'm all for the cosmetic-aesthetic
> thing. Especially if it serves a purpose.  : )
>
>  About the only other feature that I can think of to add to this wish list:
>
>  How about a "Split Mode".  Since there are eight stages with independent
> times/levels, how about being able to split the EG in two to use as two
> independent four stage EGs ?
>
>  I'd be willing to lose the env. graphic at the bottom to gain more real
> estate for knobs/jack or what-not.
>
>  Here's hoping!
>   Andrew Sanchez
>
>

--- In motm@egroups.com, bigw@o... wrote:
> whats the pricepoint your lookin got hit?, anything over $250 for 
me for a
> envelope generator would be tough to justify
> Jim
> 

Just remember, kids - what's the most expensive part of any module? 
That's right, pots, jacks, knobs, and switches. This design uses 15 
pots - enough for any 2 to 3 other MOTM modules. It won't be 
inexpensive. I think Tony will have to find some reasonably priced 
and reasonable quality pots in a smaller form factor than we are used 
to, maybe 1/8" shafts instead of 1/4".

Moe

This is excellent Tony.  What is the circuit based on?

Things on my wish list:

	* manual trigger button (Paul has unfortunately left this off of the LFO
and EG)

	* delay stage (too costly to do with existing controls--i.e. you would lose
a stage or two for the delay as opposed to a dedicated delay).

	* Ditch the LEDs (except for on the output as suggested)

	* Use MOTM panels from Paul

	* Use MOTM-type parts (and design) whenever possible

I guess these are in anticipation of you releasing a kit which you alluded
to.  A 4U module is fine with me to use the MOTM size Alco knobs.   Perhaps
this also allows CV control of some of the stages (either time or level or
both).

Is a kit a potential reality?  If so...  Estimated cost?  Estimated release
date?

Cheers!
Shemp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Karavidas [mailto:tony@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 11:21 AM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
>
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> The TCV is a "Time Control Voltage." It can shrink or stretch the
> envelope,
> while keeping the relationship of the 15 knobs.
>
> The switch with the waveforms controls how the unit progresses from one
> stage to the next. It is either linear, exponential, or stepped.
>
> The top switch (you didn't ask, but I thought I'd explain anyway) controls
> the major mode of the module. "Loop only" (as someone guessed)
> configures it
> as a complex LFO. In "One shot" mode, the stages will progress once only;
> the gate will not hold it in any sustain pattern but rather trigger the
> module. The "Gated loop" is more like a standard gated ADSR, but
> the sustain
> portion can have a complex loop anywhere between stages 2 through 4 and 5
> through 7. The "End gate" switch controls the behavior when the gate is
> released. If the switch is up, the module will complete all stages in the
> loop, otherwise it will immediately go to the final release time stage.
>
> Yes I agree about the minimum attack time. A goal is to get the
> attack under
> 1mS.
>
> Paul and I use different graphics tools and I know the font he uses, but I
> don't have the exact one. I'm trying to make it look very close
> so when it's
> in a system, it's a natural addition. The knobs are smaller
> versions of the
> ones he uses, but the mounting of the board is completely different. There
> is no information on cost or kit availability yet.
>
> Tony
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: alt-mode [mailto:alt_mode@...]
> > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 6:21 AM
> > To: motm@egroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
> >
> >
> > Tony,
> >
> > Very cool indeed!  Here's my comments:
> > - It is kinda tightly packed.  I'd be willing to go for 6 stages
> > to get more room.
> > - I do like the pairing of the time and level controls
> > - I don't think the individual stage LEDs are very useful.  If
> > you need a LED, put
> > one on the output so it brightens in proportion to the signal.
> > - I didn't get the TCV input.  What's that?
> > - I also don't get the switch on the lower right.  I initially
> > thought it was for
> > exponential vs. linear but I don't get the relationship between
> > the three choices.
> > Maybe this is because I haven't used Casios...
> > - The numbers around the knobs are OK but as I said above,
> > reducing the number of
> > stages might make it look neater.
> > - An absolutely crucial element for such an EG is the minimum
> > attack time.  I hope
> > this is in the very few ms range!
> > - Are you planning to use the same mechanical stuff as Paul (e.g.
> > panels, paint,
> > graphics, etc.)?
> >
> > It would be nice to see the high quality MOTM form factor used in
> > more compatible
> > modules.  It would be a nice to have high quality competition to the
> > Doepfer/Analogue Systems/Analogue Solutions and
> > Paia/Wiard/Blacet/FracRac stuff.  I
> > hope there are others out there, either offered through Paul or
> otherwise!
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > --- Tony Karavidas <tony@...> wrote:
> > > Hi group,
> > >
> > > It seems like this is "sneak peek" week, but it truly is a
> > coincidence. This
> > > image is my first graphic attempt and I was interested in
> your feedback.
> > >
> > > http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
> > >
> > > It has 5 toggle switches along the right side (which aren't
> > drawn in, there
> > > are just white holes in place). They perform various functions
> > and I'm not
> > > going to explain them in hopes the text and graphics can do it
> > for me. If a
> > > majority of you ask "what's that do" then I guess the image WILL need
> > > further explanation. I'm looking for feedback regarding the
> > numbers around
> > > the pots, the missing numbers, and if it looks ok without them,
> > the lack of
> > > the stage indication (I thought there were too many numbers
> > cluttering up
> > > the panel as it is). Maybe there should be no numbers around
> > the pots, but
> > > SHOULD be numbers for each of the stages. Is the graphic near
> the bottom
> > > useful? Is it in the way? Stuff like that.
> > >
> > > Anyway, this module is quite real, and I think will be a good
> > addition to
> > > Paul's lineup. A 4 stage ADSR is not enough for me.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Tony Karavidas
> > > Encore Electronics
> > >
> > > http://www.encoreelectronics.com
> > >
> > > Designers of "The best MIDI to CV converter on the planet."
> > -Keyboard Oct.
> > > 1997
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!
> > http://mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>

In a message dated 00-08-21 23:15:06 EDT, you write:

<< This is excellent Tony.  What is the circuit based on? >>


tony,
let me chime in here to also express delight over this proposed module. its 
the nicest thing i`ve seen in a long while as contol voltage modules go. 
really captures that feeling of "unique" i try to look for in modules to 
consider adding to my synth.
hope it is available soon !
best,
dave v.

Sorry, the 10U idea is out.

Tony

This is an incredible idea!!!  IT would overlap 2 sets of rails.  I am
surprised no one has thought of this before.  The electronics are fairly
small compared to all of the room needed for the knobs.  This still makes it
4U total, but it is laid out VERY intuitively.  Bravo Steve!!!  This would
leave some room for some other stuff too since another row would be opened
up--like all of the switches on the right could be moved between the knobs
and jacks since the extra row is now available.

--Shemp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: steve@... [mailto:steve@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 1:11 PM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
>
>
> How about making a 10U tall module with the proper
> screw holes in the middle so the module actually took
> up two rows tall, used the larger MOTM knobs, and kept
> the knobs in the desired "rows"??
>
> Steve
>
> > Hi Eric,
> >
> > The TCV is a "Time Control Voltage." It can shrink or
> stretch the envelope,
> > while keeping the relationship of the 15 knobs.
> >
> > The switch with the waveforms controls how the unit
> progresses from one
> > stage to the next. It is either linear, exponential,
> or stepped.
> >
> > The top switch (you didn't ask, but I thought I'd
> explain anyway) controls
> > the major mode of the module. "Loop only" (as someone
> guessed) configures
> > it
> > as a complex LFO. In "One shot" mode, the stages will
> progress once only;
> > the gate will not hold it in any sustain pattern but
> rather trigger the
> > module. The "Gated loop" is more like a standard
> gated ADSR, but the
> > sustain
> > portion can have a complex loop anywhere between
> stages 2 through 4 and 5
> > through 7. The "End gate" switch controls the
> behavior when the gate is
> > released. If the switch is up, the module will
> complete all stages in the
> > loop, otherwise it will immediately go to the final
> release time stage.
> >
> > Yes I agree about the minimum attack time. A goal is
> to get the attack
> > under
> > 1mS.
> >
> > Paul and I use different graphics tools and I know
> the font he uses, but I
> > don't have the exact one. I'm trying to make it look
> very close so when
> > it's
> > in a system, it's a natural addition. The knobs are
> smaller versions of the
> > ones he uses, but the mounting of the board is
> completely different. There
> > is no information on cost or kit availability yet.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: alt-mode [mailto:alt_mode@...]
> > > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 6:21 AM
> > > To: motm@egroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
> > >
> > >
> > > Tony,
> > >
> > > Very cool indeed!  Here's my comments:
> > > - It is kinda tightly packed.  I'd be willing to go
> for 6 stages
> > > to get more room.
> > > - I do like the pairing of the time and level
> controls
> > > - I don't think the individual stage LEDs are very
> useful.  If
> > > you need a LED, put
> > > one on the output so it brightens in proportion to
> the signal.
> > > - I didn't get the TCV input.  What's that?
> > > - I also don't get the switch on the lower right.
> I initially
> > > thought it was for
> > > exponential vs. linear but I don't get the
> relationship between
> > > the three choices.
> > > Maybe this is because I haven't used Casios...
> > > - The numbers around the knobs are OK but as I said
> above,
> > > reducing the number of
> > > stages might make it look neater.
> > > - An absolutely crucial element for such an EG is
> the minimum
> > > attack time.  I hope
> > > this is in the very few ms range!
> > > - Are you planning to use the same mechanical stuff
> as Paul (e.g.
> > > panels, paint,
> > > graphics, etc.)?
> > >
> > > It would be nice to see the high quality MOTM form
> factor used in
> > > more compatible
> > > modules.  It would be a nice to have high quality
> competition to the
> > > Doepfer/Analogue Systems/Analogue Solutions and
> > > Paia/Wiard/Blacet/FracRac stuff.  I
> > > hope there are others out there, either offered
> through Paul or
> > otherwise!
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > > --- Tony Karavidas <tony@...>
> wrote:
> > > > Hi group,
> > > >
> > > > It seems like this is "sneak peek" week, but it
> truly is a
> > > coincidence. This
> > > > image is my first graphic attempt and I was
> interested in your
> > feedback.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
> > > >
> > > > It has 5 toggle switches along the right side
> (which aren't
> > > drawn in, there
> > > > are just white holes in place). They perform
> various functions
> > > and I'm not
> > > > going to explain them in hopes the text and
> graphics can do it
> > > for me. If a
> > > > majority of you ask "what's that do" then I guess
> the image WILL need
> > > > further explanation. I'm looking for feedback
> regarding the
> > > numbers around
> > > > the pots, the missing numbers, and if it looks ok
> without them,
> > > the lack of
> > > > the stage indication (I thought there were too
> many numbers
> > > cluttering up
> > > > the panel as it is). Maybe there should be no
> numbers around
> > > the pots, but
> > > > SHOULD be numbers for each of the stages. Is the
> graphic near the
> > bottom
> > > > useful? Is it in the way? Stuff like that.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, this module is quite real, and I think
> will be a good
> > > addition to
> > > > Paul's lineup. A 4 stage ADSR is not enough for
> me.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Tony Karavidas
> > > > Encore Electronics
> > > >
> > > > http://www.encoreelectronics.com
> > > >
> > > > Designers of "The best MIDI to CV converter on
> the planet."
> > > -Keyboard Oct.
> > > > 1997
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from
> anywhere!
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> 
>
>
>
>

Thanks. I thought it was kind of unique too.

It's based on an Atmel AVR risc processor. Fortunately it doesn't generate
"audio" but I bet some diehard analog fans will still complain that it's a
microprocessor.

I don't have an estimated price yet. That will be available shortly.

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: davevosh@... [mailto:davevosh@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 8:24 PM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] MOTM compatible module
>
>
> In a message dated 00-08-21 23:15:06 EDT, you write:
>
> << This is excellent Tony.  What is the circuit based on? >>
>
>
> tony,
> let me chime in here to also express delight over this proposed
> module. its
> the nicest thing i`ve seen in a long while as contol voltage modules go.
> really captures that feeling of "unique" i try to look for in modules to
> consider adding to my synth.
> hope it is available soon !
> best,
> dave v.
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>

In a message dated 00-08-21 23:39:40 EDT, you write:

<< Atmel AVR risc processor >>



tony,
just because i don`t have the good sense not to ask (  :^)  ) :
does the microprocessor use a "standard" core ( arm, rx000, etc. ) that is 
licensed or is it completely different ?  while i certainly wouldn`t claim to 
know all there is about microprocessors, i`ve never heard of this one.
best,
dave v.

In a message dated 00-08-21 23:39:40 EDT, you write:

<< I don't have an estimated price yet. That will be available shortly. >>



tony,
great - keep us posted.
best,
dave v.

No it's not a standard core. Here is the starting point for their stuff:

http://www.atmel.com/atmel/products/prod23.htm

It's an 8MIPS core with flash, eeprom, a/d, timers, uarts, etc..

It's my new favorite fast little uP. There are a few supporting C compilers
that perform very well.

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: davevosh@... [mailto:davevosh@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 8:51 PM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] MOTM compatible module
>
>
> In a message dated 00-08-21 23:39:40 EDT, you write:
>
> << Atmel AVR risc processor >>
>
>
>
> tony,
> just because i don`t have the good sense not to ask (  :^)  ) :
> does the microprocessor use a "standard" core ( arm, rx000, etc.
> ) that is
> licensed or is it completely different ?  while i certainly
> wouldn`t claim to
> know all there is about microprocessors, i`ve never heard of this one.
> best,
> dave v.
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>

Ok, here's a slightly modified version:

(Same name, link provided for convenience)

http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG


The numbers around the knobs are gone, the stages have indicators above the
LEDs and the graphic is a little larger. (The name changed a bit too.)


Better...or worse?

Tony

Better in my opinion. A button to trigger the cycle from the panel would be 
a cool addition!

Thomas White


>From: "Tony Karavidas" <tony@...>
>Reply-To: motm@egroups.com
>To: <motm@egroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
>Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:26:02 -0700
>
>Ok, here's a slightly modified version:
>
>(Same name, link provided for convenience)
>
>http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
>
>
>The numbers around the knobs are gone, the stages have indicators above the
>LEDs and the graphic is a little larger. (The name changed a bit too.)
>
>
>Better...or worse?
>
>Tony
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

In a message dated 00-08-22 00:12:06 EDT, you write:

<< No it's not a standard core. Here is the starting point for their stuff: >>


tony,
thanks for the info.
best,
dave v.

I agree this is better.  I think you need some text under the 3 position switch on
the lower left, indicating the transition waveform.  It just isn't intuitive to me
yet with just the waveform.  The momentary switch/trigger button would be a plus and
it looks like you might have room on the lower part of the panel.

Eric
  
--- thomas white <djthomaswhite@...> wrote:
> Better in my opinion. A button to trigger the cycle from the panel would be 
> a cool addition!
> 
> Thomas White
> 
> 
> >From: "Tony Karavidas" <tony@...>
> >Reply-To: motm@egroups.com
> >To: <motm@egroups.com>
> >Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
> >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:26:02 -0700
> >
> >Ok, here's a slightly modified version:
> >
> >(Same name, link provided for convenience)
> >
> >http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
> >
> >
> >The numbers around the knobs are gone, the stages have indicators above the
> >LEDs and the graphic is a little larger. (The name changed a bit too.)
> >
> >
> >Better...or worse?
> >
> >Tony
> >
> >
> >
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail \ufffd Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

I can attest to the fact that there aren't many tools available for this little guy.
 It works OK but the tools are a bit of a pain.  In this application it can work
very well, in fact it might be a bit of overkill.  You could probably do it cheaper
with other parts but probably not faster in terms of development time.

We recently eradicated AVRs from a system I've been working on but it was a wildly
different application.  The tools were a pain but weren't the main reason to get rid
of them.  The system had evolved to a point where the complexity of a set of AVRs
(one on each board in a multi-board system) was no longer necessary.

Hmmm, there are lots of voltage control devices you could make out of an AVR and a
similar panel layout...  I wonder if Tony has some other ideas up his sleeve?  It
seems that you could make a simple sequencer at least....

Eric

--- Tony Karavidas <tony@...> wrote:
> No it's not a standard core. Here is the starting point for their stuff:
> 
> http://www.atmel.com/atmel/products/prod23.htm
> 
> It's an 8MIPS core with flash, eeprom, a/d, timers, uarts, etc..
> 
> It's my new favorite fast little uP. There are a few supporting C compilers
> that perform very well.
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: davevosh@... [mailto:davevosh@...]
> > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 8:51 PM
> > To: motm@egroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [motm] MOTM compatible module
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 00-08-21 23:39:40 EDT, you write:
> >
> > << Atmel AVR risc processor >>
> >
> >
> >
> > tony,
> > just because i don`t have the good sense not to ask (  :^)  ) :
> > does the microprocessor use a "standard" core ( arm, rx000, etc.
> > ) that is
> > licensed or is it completely different ?  while i certainly
> > wouldn`t claim to
> > know all there is about microprocessors, i`ve never heard of this one.
> > best,
> > dave v.
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail \ufffd Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Not to be the culprit of yet another bit of creeping featuritis, but can
this EG be set to output a stage on each successive gate?  That way you
get a little 8-step sequencer for the price of another switch position.
Of course, this implies that reset/reload and whatnot exist, but still
something interesting can be made mini-sequencer-wise.

  I've not yet looked at using Amtel AVR stuff.  Looks interesting.  (It
is hard to get me off my Z8/Z80 rocker though, heh heh..even my PIC stuff 
is a bit off the beaten path).

Crow

/**/

--- In motm@egroups.com, "Tentochi" <tentochi@c...> wrote:

I have to add my voice to oppose 10U high modules, for the same 
reason given before: it only works for rack installations, not for 
custom wood cases like many of us have built. And many more will, 
when flat rails become available.

I hate to be a boo bird, but is everyone who is agitating for a 4U 
module with VC on every stage, willing to cough up $500 for the 
module? I didn't think so. Let Tony keep it down to a design people 
can afford!

Practical Moe

> This is an incredible idea!!!  IT would overlap 2 sets of rails.  I 
am
> surprised no one has thought of this before.  The electronics are 
fairly
> small compared to all of the room needed for the knobs.  This still 
makes it
> 4U total, but it is laid out VERY intuitively.  Bravo Steve!!!

Better.

Dave

--- In motm@egroups.com, "Tony Karavidas" <tony@e...> wrote:
> Ok, here's a slightly modified version:
> 
> (Same name, link provided for convenience)
> 
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
> 
> 
> The numbers around the knobs are gone, the stages have indicators 
above the
> LEDs and the graphic is a little larger. (The name changed a bit 
too.)

> 
> 
> Better...or worse?
> 
> Tony

I'm jumping in a little late and half-cocked here, but...

I'd think I'd like to see it shortened to 5 segments (I.E., loose segments
5, 6, and 7) and have a "trigger out to next EG" added to put another in
series.

I think that the graphic should stay, definately.

LEDs are pretty.

Making the whole thing 3 or 4U wide is better than squashing the knobs
vertically.  I like fat knobs.  (Or is that phat knobs?)

Loops are excellent-- although I don't know much of the loop functionality
is compromised by removing segments-- perhaps more segments could be kept if
they would fit in a very wide (4U) panel.  Most likely, making the knobs
accessable to someone with heavy / large fingers is most important-- that's
part of the MOTM attraction to me.

Because the current MOTM form factor gives us 4 knobs vertically w/ room for
jacks and whatnot below... perhaps you could have a 4U panel with the first
4 time / level knobs in the first 2U, and the latter 4 time / level knobs in
the second 2U.  I don't know where the switches would end up...

Thanks for letting me blurt my random 2 cents!

--PBr

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Tony Karavidas [SMTP:tony@...]
> Sent:	Monday, August 21, 2000 9:26 PM
> To:	motm@egroups.com
> Subject:	RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module 
> 
> Ok, here's a slightly modified version:
> 
> (Same name, link provided for convenience)
> 
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
> 
> 
> The numbers around the knobs are gone, the stages have indicators above
> the
> LEDs and the graphic is a little larger. (The name changed a bit too.)
> 
> 
> Better...or worse?
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

I agree!  Looks great.

I would definitely concur that a trigger button on the panel would be
useful (although not essential).

The per-stage LED's would be much more essential for me.

I find the graphic by the transition-type switch to be perfectly sufficient.

Unfortunately, I seem to be in the minority by saying, PLEASE keep the
smaller knobs!!!  Going to a 4U width seems a bit extreme, the reasons for
not going to a 10U height are extremely good, and I wouldn't want to lose
any of the 8 stages.  Also, I would expect the knobs on an EG to see far
less real-time use than, say, knobs controlling filter cutoff, VCO
modulation attenuators, sub-octave level, LFO shape, etc. (although I
*know* there's gotta be someone out there who tweaks EG settings all the
time and rarely touches the other knobs I mentioned), so the size wouldn't
be as much of a concern to big-fingered folk (to be fair, I'll point out
that I have tiny little violinist's fingers, although that doesn't prevent
me from playing bass guitar).  And, actually, compared to the logically
finger-sized knobs on the other two modulars I'm using (or, for that
matter, on my old Korgs / Yamahas / EML101 / P600), I'm finding the larger
MOTM knobs to be overkill.  Which is not a bad thing, just an unnecessary
thing (for me!).

	-Doug
	 ceres@...

At 05:35 AM 08/22/2000 GMT, "thomas white" <djthomaswhite@...> wrote:

>Better in my opinion. A button to trigger the cycle from the panel would be 
>a cool addition!
>
>Thomas White
>
>
>>From: "Tony Karavidas" <tony@...>
>>Ok, here's a slightly modified version:
>>
>>(Same name, link provided for convenience)
>>
>>http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN2.JPG
>>
>>
>>The numbers around the knobs are gone, the stages have indicators above the
>>LEDs and the graphic is a little larger. (The name changed a bit too.)
>>
>>
>>Better...or worse?
>>
>>Tony

My main reason for the larger knobs is that when I'm twiddling, half the
time I'm not looking at that which I'm twiddling.  So, I want something
that's easy to grab and adjust in small quanties without looking, and
without much danger of accidently running my fingers over the adjacent
knobs.

That said, I would agree that an EG is not likely something that people will
tweak in real-time.  But, this thing can be used as an LFO...

And finally, I have to say that I'm also guilty of wanting aesthetic
consistancy with MOTM parts.  :)  This is significantly less of an issue (to
me) if there are more modules with the same layout-- I.E., Tony establishes
a theme which he sticks to with any hypothetical further modules.

--PBr, of the big-fingered people...  :)

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Doug Pearson [SMTP:ceres@...]
> Sent:	Tuesday, August 22, 2000 10:49 AM
> To:	motm@egroups.com
> Subject:	RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
> 
> Unfortunately, I seem to be in the minority by saying, PLEASE keep the
> smaller knobs!!!  Going to a 4U width seems a bit extreme, the reasons for
> not going to a 10U height are extremely good, and I wouldn't want to lose
> any of the 8 stages.  Also, I would expect the knobs on an EG to see far
> less real-time use than, say, knobs controlling filter cutoff, VCO
> modulation attenuators, sub-octave level, LFO shape, etc. (although I
> *know* there's gotta be someone out there who tweaks EG settings all the
> time and rarely touches the other knobs I mentioned), so the size wouldn't
> be as much of a concern to big-fingered folk (to be fair, I'll point out
> that I have tiny little violinist's fingers, although that doesn't prevent
> me from playing bass guitar).  And, actually, compared to the logically
> finger-sized knobs on the other two modulars I'm using (or, for that
> matter, on my old Korgs / Yamahas / EML101 / P600), I'm finding the larger
> MOTM knobs to be overkill.  Which is not a bad thing, just an unnecessary
> thing (for me!).
>

OK, what about this one?

http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN3.JPG

It has Crow's idea about a step input for a mini-sequencer function. I've
added it to the second switch and it's called "STEP." That switch went from
a two position to a three position. You can now step through the events for
each rising edge on the gate. So in this mode, gate is like a clock.

The functionality seems to fit well in the current h/w design. Yes, it's
more software....

Also, I'm looking for a word to call the switch now labeled "SHAPE." It
really should be something like "TRANSITION" because it describes how this
progresses from event to event.

Any ideas???

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Old Crow [mailto:oldcrow@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 5:53 AM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: RE: [motm] MOTM compatible module
>
>
>
>   Not to be the culprit of yet another bit of creeping featuritis, but can
> this EG be set to output a stage on each successive gate?  That way you
> get a little 8-step sequencer for the price of another switch position.
> Of course, this implies that reset/reload and whatnot exist, but still
> something interesting can be made mini-sequencer-wise.
>
>   I've not yet looked at using Amtel AVR stuff.  Looks interesting.  (It
> is hard to get me off my Z8/Z80 rocker though, heh heh..even my PIC stuff
> is a bit off the beaten path).
>
> Crow
>
> /**/
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>

In a message dated 00-08-22 19:09:43 EDT, you write:

<<  what about this one?
  >>



tony,
still looking very intriguing!
best,
dave v.

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Tony Karavidas wrote:

> OK, what about this one?
> 
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN3.JPG

  That's the ticket.  FWIW, I like the 2U panel using slender knobs.  I'm
not so hooked on the MOTM style guide that it is the only game in town.
(Though it is a _good_ game).

> Also, I'm looking for a word to call the switch now labeled "SHAPE." It
> really should be something like "TRANSITION" because it describes how this
> progresses from event to event.

  'Slope'?

Crow

/**/

I sounds like a lot of people don't get the maximum benefit out of their
modulars (sorry I stuck the reply on your message Paul).  EGs (and LFOs) are
incredible to play in real-time when connected to a sequencer or
arpeggiator.  This gives amazing movement to parts.  It can also give subtle
changes in feel all the way through complete sound change transformations.
This is a great tool also to use for techno, ambient, trance, dance, etc.  I
know a lot of people who do this.

Perhaps you just haven't tried it before???  Or your music is a little more
static that it should be?

There are lots of knobs and jacks and modules I wonder What the hell are
those for?  And then when I try it or it is explained to me, it is like a
revalation!

Cheers!
Shemp

> That said, I would agree that an EG is not likely something that
> people will
> tweak in real-time.  But, this thing can be used as an LFO...
>
> And finally, I have to say that I'm also guilty of wanting aesthetic
> consistancy with MOTM parts.  :)  This is significantly less of
> an issue (to
> me) if there are more modules with the same layout-- I.E., Tony
> establishes
> a theme which he sticks to with any hypothetical further modules.

Looks good.  Still waiting for a trigger button.  ENVGEN4.JGP???

--Shemp

> OK, what about this one?
> 
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com/motm/ENVGEN3.JPG
> 
> Any ideas???
> 
> Tony
>

Hi Andrew,

Yes this email did get lost in the slew of emails, sorry. The idea of
splitting is cool, but it is so different than what's available. It would
need independent gates, a dual DAC, independent outputs. It's a major change
to the underlying architecture.

The tracking generator is also a cool idea. I really don't want (or have the
room) to add another two switches. *Maybe* a tracking generator could be
implemented if a certain combinations of switch positions were used...say
"One Shot" and "Finish Loop." Normally if you are in one shot mode, the
second switch from the top doesn't do anything. You could then use the TCV
input into the tracking generator. It's just an idea!

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ixqy@... [mailto:ixqy@...]
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 3:24 PM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] MOTM compatible module
>
>
> In a message dated 8/21/00 10:21:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
> tony@... writes:
>
> > The TCV is a "Time Control Voltage." It can shrink or stretch
> the envelope,
> >  while keeping the relationship of the 15 knobs.
> >
> >  The switch with the waveforms controls how the unit progresses from one
> >  stage to the next. It is either linear, exponential, or stepped.
> >
> >  The top switch (you didn't ask, but I thought I'd explain
> anyway) controls
> >  the major mode of the module. "Loop only" (as someone guessed)
> configures
> it
> >  as a complex LFO. In "One shot" mode, the stages will progress
> once only;
> >  the gate will not hold it in any sustain pattern but rather trigger the
> >  module. The "Gated loop" is more like a standard gated ADSR, but the
> sustain
> >  portion can have a complex loop anywhere between stages 2
> through 4 and 5
> >  through 7. The "End gate" switch controls the behavior when the gate is
> >  released. If the switch is up, the module will complete all
> stages in the
> >  loop, otherwise it will immediately go to the final release time stage.
> >
> >  Yes I agree about the minimum attack time. A goal is to get the attack
> under
> >  1mS.
>
>  I think the LFO mode is a GREAT feature. Definitely expands the
> usefulness
> of have a multistage EG.
>
> Would it also be possible to have it function as a tracking generator (OB
> Xpander style)? I know I'm probably dreaming here, but I'd love
> to have a CV
> IN modifiable by each level (times defeated or ignored). This
> "scaling" of
> any CV-able function would be a great tool in a modular synth.
>
>  I love the LEDs for each level! This will help in keeping track of the
> active stage and will look great (IMO). I'm all for the
> cosmetic-aesthetic
> thing. Especially if it serves a purpose.  : )
>
>  About the only other feature that I can think of to add to this
> wish list:
>
>  How about a "Split Mode".  Since there are eight stages with independent
> times/levels, how about being able to split the EG in two to use as two
> independent four stage EGs ?
>
>  I'd be willing to lose the env. graphic at the bottom to gain more real
> estate for knobs/jack or what-not.
>
>  Here's hoping!
>   Andrew Sanchez
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>