Homebrew_PCBs

> i finally got around to using soidium silicate(water glass)on a small
> piece of pcb. i hardened it with co2(carbon dioxide), then etched
> with ferric chloride?(sp).i used a tooth pick and put some small
> dots,large dot and a line of water glass on the board, then hardened
> and etched, it came out excelant.i noticed a very small dot that i
> put on there, it was about .005 of an inch. NOW -if i can gat an
> inkjet printer to handle the water glass and a streight through feed
> for the pcb i will be in business.
> if any one has any suggestion on what printer to use i would
> appreceiate it.i dont know which would be best-a pezeio or heated ink
> head. the water glass has some water in it. JUST LOOKIN FOR SOME
> THOUGHTS FROM OTHERS.
> mebo
>

>
> Don't waste your time with a thermo printer.
> I tried with acrylic paint (water solube strongly diluted in the

> floor polish).
> If you have any chance to get this working it is with a piezo.
>
>
> Also keep in mind that anything works "toothpick applied".
> e.g. use colophony resin solved in alcohol or paint thinner.
> works perfectly if applied with a brush (or toothpick).
> dries in seconds to minutes in air (no hardening).
> is a good resist, and a very good flux also as a side effect.
>
> Problem: i won't "toothpick" my pcbs and i found no way applying it
> by printing.
>
>
> Nearly any laquer will work very well as a resist.
> the hard part is to get it printed in a thick enough even enough

> layer.
> i personaly very much wonder why you insist on using water glass.
> (what is the reason?) i would rather try the acrylic paint with a

> I see no advantage in a resist that is water soluble and needs co2
> hardening.
>
> looking forward to any results you get..
>
> ST

> Won't work. Will clog up the cartridge. The software algorithm
> controlling the jets is designed for certain types of ink. You need
> an alcohol based ink. While you are at it, try to develop a
> conductive ink as that do awway with nasty etching. Mike

> Won't work. Will clog up the cartridge. The software algorithm
> controlling the jets is designed for certain types of ink. You need
> an alcohol based ink. While you are at it, try to develop a
> conductive ink as that do awway with nasty etching. Mike

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@c...>

> > Won't work. Will clog up the cartridge. The software algorithm
> > controlling the jets is designed for certain types of ink. You

> > an alcohol based ink. While you are at it, try to develop a
> > conductive ink as that do awway with nasty etching. Mike
>
> BY the way mike, what kind of ink does the piezo printers use???
> mebo

> ok mike , read on the label of the carterage--its got isopropyl
> alcohol in it,looking better all time. that is regular rubbing
> alcohol.
> mebo
>
>

> good thoughts stefan, already had run that through my
> beady little brain. my big problem now is to get the
> cartaridge clean and get the old canon printer hooked
> to a computer. i dont want to ruin my black ink
> cartaridge, i will try to find two or three empty ones
> and disect one to see how to clean and refill with
> what i want. the driver for the old canon bj200 is a
> touch over 3 meg so cant put it on a 31/2 floppy. i
> ahve an old 286 ibm i was planing on useing but it
> doesnt have a cd rom.
> tia
> mebo
>
>

> thanks for the thoughts stefan.the canon is a thermo,
> i am looking for a piezo to try also. yes i have two
> more computers, a intel 350 and an intel 600, just
> thought might set the 286 up out in the shop. the
> canon bj200 carteridge has isopropyl alcohol 67-63-0
> written on it, dont know what that is telling me. i
> mixed a small amout of water glass and propalene
> glycol yesterday and it gelled and set up kinda
> hard,was thinking what chemical i can print(get thrugh
> the ink carterage) with and paint the board with the
> other,run through the printer and have them harden.
> like i have said before "there just has to be an
> easier way to get the etch resist on the board." would
> be nice to run the blank pcb through the printer, set
> the resist and etch. but nothing ever comes easy or
> cheap.
> mebo
>
>

> thank you mike for your frankness,sounds like you have gone down

> inkjet road quite a considerable distance. i am just lookin for an
> easier way to get etch resist on the board. i have tried ironing on
> the resist from a copier, works fair, but kinda a hassel. yes i

> read about the other things they are doing with jet printing,

> industry hides every thing they can to keep us form using a printer
> for other uses. MAYBE SOMEDAY?
> mebo

> maybe we should try the ink which is alerady in the cartridge?
> why won't it work? i think it is water resistant.
>
> you already have the bj200 so it does not hurt to try.
> but i bet it will not work ;-).

> as said i see only a chance with the piezo jet,
> and then there i see a huge load of problems coming...

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>
> > maybe we should try the ink which is alerady in the cartridge?
> > why won't it work? i think it is water resistant.
> >
> > you already have the bj200 so it does not hurt to try.
> > but i bet it will not work ;-).
>
> Some of the Canon black ink is pigmented, but all of the color ink

> dye based and runs at the slightest hint of moisture unless on

> paper.
>
> It also beads up like mad on glossy non-inkjet surfaces. I've tried.
>
> > as said i see only a chance with the piezo jet,
> > and then there i see a huge load of problems coming...
>
> Hey! Pigmented inks for Epson printers are waterfast, or at least
> water resistant.
>
> The big problem is that standard inkjet inks don't stick well unless
> the surface is treated with something. And that kinda subverts

> if the board has a coating.
>
> However- pigmented inks can print on glossy paper, they just take
> forever to dry. No reason you can't heat the board to dry the ink.
>
> That Epson 800 (non-color version) that I have is still sitting here
> without an ink tank. However, I am about to fit an Epson 1520 with
> pigmented inks. It has a straight through paper path and should feed
> some of the very thin double-sided PCB I have here. I'll scrub it up
> with plastic scrubber and a degreaser like Comet, as if to do toner
> transfer. Then I think I may heat the board before printing on it,
> then maybe set it on a warmer plate to dry.
>
> Most of the new Epson models like the C84 use their new resin coated
> pigmented inks that are made to work better with glossy paper, so

> may work better than generic pigmented inks or older Epson pigmented
> printers like the C80, C82, 1280, etc. But 3rd party pigmented inks
> are -much- cheaper.
>
> Steve

> Most of the new Epson models like the C84 use their new resin coated
> pigmented inks that are made to work better with glossy paper, so

> may work better than generic pigmented inks or older Epson pigmented
> printers like the C80, C82, 1280, etc. But 3rd party pigmented inks
> are -much- cheaper.
>
> Steve

> Rememeber: nobody on this board shares what he learned that works.
> This is a fact of life and this is what it is. You are alone and you
> have no friends. If you hear a contrary opinion it is a decieving
> voice of marketing devil applying creative marketing techniques. If
> something sounds to good to be true... it means you found an idea for
> a new product. Test it. Piss on the whole world and trust only your
> inner voice.
>
> Mike
>

> Perosnally, the whole discussion got me to start my proect with
> plotter. Anazingly, I was able to 'retrofit' an ink pen in 5 minutes.
> I am using HP type ink pens with fiber tips which is not a great
> resolution but it might be enough for quick prototypes. Procedure:
> remove the cap of the plotter pen by prying the cap with exacto
> knife. Remove the piece of felt that sits inside (don't worry about
> your fingers, it's protected in plastic sleeve). Open a Sharpie pan
> by grabbing the pen with pliers and remove the felt core (also
> contained in plastic). Cau the same amount as needed, and stick it
> into a reworked plotter pen. Replace the caps on both pens. You are
> done. No need to flush the old ink as the black overrode my initial
> yellow. I was amazed how swift the operation was. using an xy Roland
> plotter. The problem? The fiber pen is way too thick. The solution? I
> may have used and old ink pen that had a flattened fiber tip. I
> pulled out the fiber tip from the plotter pen and stuck it form the
> other end back into the pen. The tip is sharp and probably was
> designed to be used as a replacement. I can draw very nice lines now.
> Added bonus? Possibly I can press the tip deeper to 'compensate' for
> the PCB thickness. Mike
>
>

>
> > Rememeber: nobody on this board shares what he learned that works.
> > This is a fact of life and this is what it is. You are alone and

> > have no friends. If you hear a contrary opinion it is a decieving
> > voice of marketing devil applying creative marketing techniques.

> > something sounds to good to be true... it means you found an idea

> > a new product. Test it. Piss on the whole world and trust only

> > inner voice.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
>
> You ARE a very cynical person!

> I was helped a lot by people who didn't know me at all.
> So there must be some good mind left in the word or not?
>
> ST

> What about the idea someone had of sprinkling toner on top of the
> still-wet inkjet ink as it comes outof the printer, then melting it,
> say on top of a hot iron? I've been wondering about this for a
> while, but I don't have an inkjet that allows for horizontal
> entry/exit of the board.
>
> -Josh

> On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:09:49 -0000, joshdewinter

> wrote:
>
> > What about the idea someone had of sprinkling toner on top of the
> > still-wet inkjet ink as it comes outof the printer, then melting

> > say on top of a hot iron? I've been wondering about this for a
> > while, but I don't have an inkjet that allows for horizontal
> > entry/exit of the board.
> >
> > -Josh
>
> I think this is a lot of effort - compared to the toner transfer.
> and i doubt the results get any better.
> but i would like to hear how it goes if someone makes the

>
>
> ST

> I suspect he doesn't have easy access to a laser printer or
> photocopier. getting a little toner and dusting with it will be a
> lot cheaper than buying a printer and definitely easier than making a
> bunch of trips to kinkos or where-ever. I wonder what kind of
> quality he will see with this (uneven distribution of toner and such).
>
> still, I agree that this seems like more work and definitely messier.
>

> On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:14:44 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:
>
> > I suspect he doesn't have easy access to a laser printer or
> > photocopier. getting a little toner and dusting with it will be a
> > lot cheaper than buying a printer and definitely easier than making a
> > bunch of trips to kinkos or where-ever. I wonder what kind of
> > quality he will see with this (uneven distribution of toner and such).
> >
> > still, I agree that this seems like more work and definitely messier.
> >
>
> all i say is ebay.
>
> ST
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Harris" <tony@e...> wrote:
>
>
> > On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:14:44 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > I suspect he doesn't have easy access to a laser printer or
> > > photocopier. getting a little toner and dusting with it will
be a
> > > lot cheaper than buying a printer and definitely easier than
making a
> > > bunch of trips to kinkos or where-ever. I wonder what kind of
> > > quality he will see with this (uneven distribution of toner and
such).
> > >
> > > still, I agree that this seems like more work and definitely
messier.
> > >
> >
> > all i say is ebay.
> >
> > ST
> >
>
> Agreed - I bought a 4m+ off of ebay in awesome shape for only like
$150 w/
> shipping included and a toner cart with >50% life left.... I saw
some for
> less, but this one was in like new shape and had the ethernet card
and extra
> ram.
>
> -Tony

> lol, 150 vs a bottle of toner.... I rest my case.
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Harris" <tony@e...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:14:44 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I suspect he doesn't have easy access to a laser printer or
>> > > photocopier. getting a little toner and dusting with it will
> be a
>> > > lot cheaper than buying a printer and definitely easier than
> making a
>> > > bunch of trips to kinkos or where-ever. I wonder what kind of
>> > > quality he will see with this (uneven distribution of toner and
> such).
>> > >
>> > > still, I agree that this seems like more work and definitely
> messier.
>> > >
>> >
>> > all i say is ebay.
>> >
>> > ST
>> >
>>
>> Agreed - I bought a 4m+ off of ebay in awesome shape for only like
> $150 w/
>> shipping included and a toner cart with >50% life left.... I saw
> some for
>> less, but this one was in like new shape and had the ethernet card
> and extra
>> ram.
>>
>> -Tony
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> 150 (which was no good deal) vs a bottle of toner.
> PLUS you get a reasonable printer for office work.
> not such a inkjet scrap.
>
> ST
>
> And certain bottles of toner cost much more..
> (for my HP IIID 150 to 200 EUR in the shop -
> 15 eur for two at ebay)
>
>
> > lol, 150 vs a bottle of toner.... I rest my case.
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Harris" <tony@e...>

> >>
> >>
> >> > On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:14:44 -0000, Phil <phil1960us@y...>

> >> >
> >> > > I suspect he doesn't have easy access to a laser printer or
> >> > > photocopier. getting a little toner and dusting with it will
> > be a
> >> > > lot cheaper than buying a printer and definitely easier than
> > making a
> >> > > bunch of trips to kinkos or where-ever. I wonder what kind

> >> > > quality he will see with this (uneven distribution of toner

> > such).
> >> > >
> >> > > still, I agree that this seems like more work and definitely
> > messier.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > all i say is ebay.
> >> >
> >> > ST
> >> >
> >>
> >> Agreed - I bought a 4m+ off of ebay in awesome shape for only

> > $150 w/
> >> shipping included and a toner cart with >50% life left.... I saw
> > some for
> >> less, but this one was in like new shape and had the ethernet

> > and extra
> >> ram.
> >>
> >> -Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> each to his own. some people dont want printers cluttering up

> house.

----- Original Message -----
From: wheedal99
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 3:43 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Standard inkjet inks for etch resist? -[OT]


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil"
> each to his own. some people dont want printers cluttering up
their
> house.

Hehe, you sound like my wife. Until recently, I found it just as
cheap to buy a new (last years model lexmark/HP) printer (inkjet) as
it was to buy new color cartridges. The cannon inkjet carts can be
had for pretty cheap online now; so I've slowed down on printer
purchases.

My laser printer is still the same one I've used for the last 6
years --just finishing my 2nd cartridge after a *lot* of use. I
think you can get into a laser printer pretty cheap these days. I've
seen HP 6L's and the like at the thrift shops for $10-$25; however
most of the cartridges are empty so you'd be close to $50 - $60 to
get a usable unit. However, Office Max - Staples - Office Depot has
a sale/rebate offer on the low end minolta / samsung printers almost
every other week --~$80 after mail in rebates for 1200dpi (but
usually with half-filled cartridges). I still haven't bit on that
yet --maybe after this 5L of mine finally spends its cartridge.

All that said, I'm not sure the wet ink/toner trick would work very
well. Most inkjet inks are designed to setup and dry very quickly.

Maybe something along the lines of direct inkjet resist thread --
diluted floor wax? --Anyone come up with something workable? I've
got a few printers that could be sacrificed on the alter of
science. --too bad the print heads dry up so fast.






Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Hi,
> I have a HP 5L and I bought a refill kit ( a bottle of toner) on
> eBay for $10 or $15. So this would be a cheap source for toner to try.
> By the way it is a simple process to refill your own cartridge. My 5L
> works just like new with my "do it yourself" refill. The guy who sells
> it has a good write-up on how to get the job done.
>

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil"
> > each to his own. some people dont want printers
> cluttering up
> their
> > house.
>
> Hehe, you sound like my wife. Until recently, I
> found it just as
> cheap to buy a new (last years model lexmark/HP)
> printer (inkjet) as
> it was to buy new color cartridges. The cannon
> inkjet carts can be
> had for pretty cheap online now; so I've slowed down
> on printer
> purchases.
>
> My laser printer is still the same one I've used for
> the last 6
> years --just finishing my 2nd cartridge after a
> *lot* of use. I
> think you can get into a laser printer pretty cheap
> these days. I've
> seen HP 6L's and the like at the thrift shops for
> $10-$25; however
> most of the cartridges are empty so you'd be close
> to $50 - $60 to
> get a usable unit. However, Office Max - Staples -
> Office Depot has
> a sale/rebate offer on the low end minolta / samsung
> printers almost
> every other week --~$80 after mail in rebates for
> 1200dpi (but
> usually with half-filled cartridges). I still
> haven't bit on that
> yet --maybe after this 5L of mine finally spends its
> cartridge.
>
> All that said, I'm not sure the wet ink/toner trick
> would work very
> well. Most inkjet inks are designed to setup and
> dry very quickly.
>
> Maybe something along the lines of direct inkjet
> resist thread --
> diluted floor wax? --Anyone come up with something
> workable? I've
> got a few printers that could be sacrificed on the
> alter of
> science. --too bad the print heads dry up so fast.
>
>
>
>
>

> i have tryed the regular ink, its got alcohal and
> glycerine added to water and color pigments. the ink
> dont dry enough to make it water resistant. glycerine
> doesnt set up or dry out, even tryed to bake it. the
> boiling point is somewhere around 500 deg f. would
> ruin the board. just my 2 cents. am looking at acrylic
> black paint mixed with windex and a touch of glycol.
> (glycol to keep the jet holes from drying out and
> stopping up.)THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY.
> mebo

>
> All that said, I'm not sure the wet ink/toner trick would work very
> well. Most inkjet inks are designed to setup and dry very quickly. >
> Maybe something along the lines of direct inkjet resist thread --
> diluted floor wax? --Anyone come up with something workable? I've
> got a few printers that could be sacrificed on the alter of
> science. --too bad the print heads dry up so fast.
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "rmustakos" <rmustakos@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 4:24 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Standard inkjet inks for etch resist?


> Hi
> I'm new here (not a lurker), but I'm actually looking into two
> things right now, and a backup for them. If any of you have any
> information on them, or know where I can get information, I'd
> appreciate it.
>
> A company Xeaia or something like that has conductive inks for inkjet
> printers. If this works, and you can get an insulating ink as well,
> you can build circuits by printing them on your inkjet. I have not
> heard back from them yet, so I don't know if they are interested in
> our market, or if they require proprietary printers.

I contacted them a few months ago. The special print head needed for their
ink is *very* expensive (you need to buy a complete development system) and
the ink needs to be cured with UV directly after it is applied. I estimated
that it would cost me about 5,000 GBP to build a prototype using their ink.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: aqzf13@...
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

> Hi
> I'm new here (not a lurker), but I'm actually looking into two
> things right now, and a backup for them. If any of you have any
> information on them, or know where I can get information, I'd
> appreciate it.
>
> A company Xeaia or something like that has conductive inks for

> printers. If this works, and you can get an insulating ink as well,
> you can build circuits by printing them on your inkjet. I have not
> heard back from them yet, so I don't know if they are interested in
> our market, or if they require proprietary printers.
>
> and I'm trying to find out if anyone makes a screen printer mask
> inkjet ink, so that a negative of the circuit can be printed right
> onto the screen, and then to build up (additive construction) the
> circuits using conductive inks or pastes using screen printing
>
> If none of these work, I heard (at least 3 or 4 years ago) about a
> techniques where you print the negative right onto a fiberglass

> then squeegee the conductive paste into it. Additional layers for
> vias are built up by printing toner over areas where you don't

> through holes, printing another layer that is a negative oof the

> and putting more conductor over it.
>
> Sounded interesting, fairly easy, clean and doesn't waste anything

> toner). But I never heard anything else about it, never owned a

> printer (only inkjets), and don't know anyone who tried it.
>
> Again, any information would be appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Richard
> >
> > All that said, I'm not sure the wet ink/toner trick would work

> > well. Most inkjet inks are designed to setup and dry very

> > Maybe something along the lines of direct inkjet resist thread -

> > diluted floor wax? --Anyone come up with something workable?

> > got a few printers that could be sacrificed on the alter of
> > science. --too bad the print heads dry up so fast.
> >
> FYI,
> So far, no joy on emulsion inks for inkjet printers.
> Richard

> I heard from someone making conductive inks and they don't sell it to
> public. They want to sell ypou a massive machine that uses that ink,
> instead.
> As far as floor wax goes: not a good idea. Stuff dries out and clogs
> up a printer. Solvent? Ammonia, another alergenic chemical taht will
> make you look like a spotted owl. Bottom line is: no conductive inks
> are available on the market. Yet although they are available to
> select customers. People print DNA's, resistors but we have no access
> to these technologies.
> Screen printing conductive material? Probably the same situation.
> Mike

> On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:22:41 -0000, mikezcnc <eemikez@c...> wrote:
>
> > I heard from someone making conductive inks and they don't sell

> > public. They want to sell ypou a massive machine that uses that

> > instead.
> > As far as floor wax goes: not a good idea. Stuff dries out and

> > up a printer. Solvent? Ammonia, another alergenic chemical taht

> > make you look like a spotted owl. Bottom line is: no conductive

> > are available on the market. Yet although they are available to
> > select customers. People print DNA's, resistors but we have no

> > to these technologies.
> > Screen printing conductive material? Probably the same situation.
> > Mike
>
>
> Could you solder on this stuff?
>
> ST

> Stefan,
>
> Yes. It is a replacement technology for existing wet-type. On a
> second thought, I am not sure if they don't need a second step
> similar to our 'tinning process'. Here's a website in Italy:
> http://www.new-system.com/ Talking to the ink company in GB is like
> talking to a bride that just won Miss Universe contest...
>
> www.avecia.com I would love to put them out of business.
>
>
> Mike
>

> Stefan,
>
> Yes. It is a replacement technology for existing wet-type. On a
> second thought, I am not sure if they don't need a second step
> similar to our 'tinning process'. Here's a website in Italy:
> http://www.new-system.com/ Talking to the ink company in GB is like
> talking to a bride that just won Miss Universe contest...
>
> www.avecia.com I would love to put them out of business.
>
>
> Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan King" <alan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Standard inkjet inks for etch resist?


> mikezcnc wrote:
>
> > Stefan,
> >
> > Yes. It is a replacement technology for existing wet-type. On a
> > second thought, I am not sure if they don't need a second step
> > similar to our 'tinning process'. Here's a website in Italy:
> > http://www.new-system.com/ Talking to the ink company in GB is like
> > talking to a bride that just won Miss Universe contest...
> >
> > www.avecia.com I would love to put them out of business.
> >
> >
> > Mike
>
>
> Note there are brochures for the other two, but not the board printer.
It is
> not the first or likely the last attempt at one of these, and they tend to
fail
> in the marketplace from one undesireable quality or another. Even if it
works
> flawlessly, it has to compete as well, and the large scale inertia is a
tough
> thing to overcome. Similar to trying to dent a mountain by shooting BB's
at it,
> it has to be one heck of a BB to even make an impression and become more
than a
> tiny niche product..
>
> In other words, wish them good luck, but at the same time keep an eye
out in
> the news for their obituary within the next year or two. The other two
look
> more practical though, so they may stay in with those at least even if the
other
> doesn't catch on.
>
> There are high end versions of some normal printers like Epson that use
> similar inks etc. Have to wonder if they aren't the guts from a wider
> distribution printer with their own controller and extra hardware.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> Although I'm not interested in this technology, I'd thought I'd drop a
> teaser
> Minwax polycrylic is a water soluble polymer, It's thin-able with

> dries to a chemically resistant and VERY hard surface.
> The only possible problems I see with it as an etch resist, are 1:

> not adhere to copper, and two if it does, you might not ever get it off.
>
> JT
>

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy
> Taylor" <jt@j...> wrote:
> > Although I'm not interested in this technology,
> I'd thought I'd drop a
> > teaser
> > Minwax polycrylic is a water soluble polymer, It's
> thin-able with
> water, and
> > dries to a chemically resistant and VERY hard
> surface.
> > The only possible problems I see with it as an
> etch resist, are 1:
> it may
> > not adhere to copper, and two if it does, you
> might not ever get it off.
> >
> > JT
> >
>
> Oohh! There are two from Minwax:
>
>

>
>

>
> Steve
>
>

> hey---this looks promising,i bought some MOP&GLOW,
> which has some teflon in it. info on the container
> states that it can be cleaned off the board(or floor)
> with lysol and ammonia, 1 cup each to 1/2 gallon of
> water.
> I put a small dot on a pcb and it spread a small
> amount but it dryed hard, tryed to remove it by
> scraping with a screw driver, it came off but not
> easy, i had not cleaned the board and it adhered to
> it.looks like its time to emty an ink carterdge and
> refill with mimwax. may have to add a small amt of red
> food dye containing alcohol to the mimwax.
> mebo

> On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:28:09 -0800 (PST), pebo festus <mebo31@y...>
> wrote:
>
> > hey---this looks promising,i bought some MOP&GLOW,
> > which has some teflon in it. info on the container
> > states that it can be cleaned off the board(or floor)
> > with lysol and ammonia, 1 cup each to 1/2 gallon of
> > water.
> > I put a small dot on a pcb and it spread a small
> > amount but it dryed hard, tryed to remove it by
> > scraping with a screw driver, it came off but not
> > easy, i had not cleaned the board and it adhered to
> > it.looks like its time to emty an ink carterdge and
> > refill with mimwax. may have to add a small amt of red
> > food dye containing alcohol to the mimwax.
> > mebo
>
>
> DO IT, GO!
>
> i look forward to the results for a while now.
> I still have my doubts but maybe in the end it works.
> the resist pattern printers i see on the web look certainly
> like inkjets.....
>
> i think it is only a question of the printing head.
> i have wasted my time with a bubblejet, maybe if i had
> bought a piezo for it i would now already print my boards this
> way.
>
> ST

> I have a piezo allready converted to flatbed, but dont have the ink
> carterges, have them ordered, may call back and see if the co i
> ordered from would sell emty carterges, you are right steve-the
> bubble jet is out as far as i am concerned.will post when and if
> progress is made.
> mebo
>
>
>

> On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:28:09 -0800 (PST), pebo festus <mebo31@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>>hey---this looks promising,i bought some MOP&GLOW,
>>which has some teflon in it. info on the container

>
> DO IT, GO!
>
> i look forward to the results for a while now.
> I still have my doubts but maybe in the end it works.
> the resist pattern printers i see on the web look certainly
> like inkjets.....
>
> i think it is only a question of the printing head.
> i have wasted my time with a bubblejet, maybe if i had
> bought a piezo for it i would now already print my boards this
> way.
>
> ST
>

> I have a piezo allready converted to flatbed, but dont have the ink
> carterges, have them ordered, may call back and see if the co i
> ordered from would sell emty carterges, you are right steve-the
> bubble jet is out as far as i am concerned.will post when and if
> progress is made.
> mebo

> > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 13:28:09 -0800 (PST), pebo festus <mebo31@y...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>hey---this looks promising,i bought some MOP&GLOW,
> >>which has some teflon in it. info on the container
>

> Very same things that make it a good resist are going to make it

> clogging the heads though, and unlike the HP type the piezos usually

> heads seperate instead of in the cartridge so it'll wreck the

> part of why most of the workable resist systems have a curing ink

> that dries on it's own. Still if something will cut it then maybe

> thinned to the point of working ok.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
...
> What about that UV cured ink that is in the latest wide format
> printers? My understanding is the ink does not dry until hit with a UV
> light source as it comes out from under the print-head, and after UV
> hardened it is waterproof.
>
> Again, it becomes a question of whether or not it'll work in an Epson
> printer. But, there are tons of Epson 400's and 600's around here in
> thrift stores. Have to convert them to straight through and take out
> the pizza wheels.

This site:
<http://www.wide-format-printers.org/Mimaki_wideformatprinterreviews/Mimaki_piezo_wide_format.html>
reports that Mimaki, Roland, and Mutoh printers use Epson piezo heads.
Both Mimaki and Mutoh printers come in models that take solvent inks,
and UV solvent inks.

From this I'd infer a good possibility that the smaller Epson desktop
printers may handle those UV solvent inks. Maybe.

Keeping in mind that the solvent inks may give off poisonous fumes in
operation.

<http://www.wide-format-printers.org/Mutoh_Albatross_Mutoh_Tomahawk/Mutoh%20Tomahawk_solvent_ink.htm>

Based on this page:
<http://www.abetterink.com/Mimaki%20TX2.htm>
I'd say those Epson heads are pretty tough.

More info on UV Cure inks:
http://www.screenweb.com/inks/cont/inkupdate03.html

Steve

> hey---this looks promising,i bought some MOP&GLOW,
> which has some teflon in it. info on the container
> states that it can be cleaned off the board(or floor)
> with lysol and ammonia, 1 cup each to 1/2 gallon of
> water.

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, pebo festus
> <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> > hey---this looks promising,i bought some MOP&GLOW,
> > which has some teflon in it. info on the container
> > states that it can be cleaned off the board(or
> floor)
> > with lysol and ammonia, 1 cup each to 1/2 gallon
> of
> > water.
>
> I'm new here, but I have to ask... has anyone tried
> using Future?
> It's a thin acrylic "paint", not a wax. It can be
> thinned with water
> or alcohol. It can be colored with food coloring and
> presumably
> inkjet ink. And it dissolves with ammonia or simple
> Windex.
>
> In other countries, a similar product is called
> Johnson's Klear, or
> variations on that name.
>
>

>
> I'm new here, but I have to ask... has anyone tried using Future?
> It's a thin acrylic "paint", not a wax. It can be thinned with water
> or alcohol. It can be colored with food coloring and presumably
> inkjet ink. And it dissolves with ammonia or simple Windex.
>
> In other countries, a similar product is called Johnson's Klear, or
> variations on that name.
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Standard inkjet inks for etch resist?


>
> >
> > I'm new here, but I have to ask... has anyone tried using Future?
> > It's a thin acrylic "paint", not a wax. It can be thinned with water
> > or alcohol. It can be colored with food coloring and presumably
> > inkjet ink. And it dissolves with ammonia or simple Windex.
> >
> > In other countries, a similar product is called Johnson's Klear, or
> > variations on that name.
> >
> >
>
> "Bona Parkett polish" is the same, i have tried it with a bubblejet and
> it didn't work.
> i expect better results from piezo.
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> ok---i uploaded 2 pics of the converted epson color stylus 880
> printer, waiting on the carts to come in, have a dedicated computer
> ready. will order empty black carts today. if this doesnt work---
> back to drawing board.
> mebo

> I am relatively new to this group and apologise if this possibility

> mentioned previously. Some 10 years ago, a group of local amateur radio
> operators, all working in a Government communications laboratory, were
> having considerable success in printing PCB patterns directly onto the
> copper, using the ink used to print logos, slogans etc on to

> put the ink into the pens of the old flat-bed plotters. The

> long since closed and the group dispersed, so I cannot now follow

> up. Has anybody in this group tried T-shirt ink in an inkjet printer?
>
> Bill

> ok---i uploaded 2 pics of the converted epson color stylus 880
> printer, waiting on the carts to come in, have a dedicated computer
> ready. will order empty black carts today. if this doesnt work---
> back to drawing board.
> mebo

>There are quite a few kind of "tshirt inks", all with different
>characteristics.
>
>I make imprinted tshirts, I'll see what mine does on a PCB.
>
>Steve
>
>
>
>

> Steve, you did T-shirts with screen printing - did you ever come across
> any screen mask materials that were inkjet-able? Did you ever try to
> laser print onto screen? Any thoughts on the chances of either working?
> RM
>
> >There are quite a few kind of "tshirt inks", all with different
> >characteristics.
> >
> >I make imprinted tshirts, I'll see what mine does on a PCB.
> >
> >Steve

> well the computer didnt see the old epson color stylus 880, something
> broken on the printer , soooooo, its back to the drawing board, i
> have an old epson color stylus II that i have just about ready. not
> only does one have to fight the printers but the ink medium also. i
> AINT giving up!!!!.
> mebo
>

> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:15:20 -0000, pebo festus <mebo31@y...> wrote:
>
> > well the computer didnt see the old epson color stylus 880,

> > broken on the printer , soooooo, its back to the drawing board, i
> > have an old epson color stylus II that i have just about ready.

> > only does one have to fight the printers but the ink medium also.

> > AINT giving up!!!!.
> > mebo
> >
>
>
> You ought to test that damn printer before working with it, didn't

> realize that?
> good luck with the other one..
>
>
> and also try to just send a file out on LPT in MS-DOS, maybe the

> isn't dead
> but windows is only lazy again...
>
> ST

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus" <mebo31@y...>

> > ok---i uploaded 2 pics of the converted epson color stylus 880
> > printer, waiting on the carts to come in, have a dedicated

> > ready. will order empty black carts today. if this doesnt work---
> > back to drawing board.
> > mebo
>
> I moved them to Files in a folder on Direct Resist printing.
>
> The Photos area sucks- you uploaded beautiful closeup images, but
> Yahoogroups only allows everyone else to see a tiny low res 400x300
> pixel image. It will only show the high res original to the original
> poster and the moderator.
>
> So you had to cut and lower the back? A hot-rod Epson? ;')
>
> Steve

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 21:08:18 -0000, pebo festus <mebo31@...> wrote:

> got he epson stylus color II going, got the mixture of 15 ml
> MOP&GLO,9 ml red food coloring, 9 ml water through the black print
> head. had to clean the black print head several times,there is no way
> of knowing how long the printer had sat drying out. was about to give
> up when the new ink came through. it came out light colored print but
> very clear and sharp letters, may need to be light when printing on a
> pcb because the copper doesnt absorb the ink. had to set the
> brightness as dark as could and the contrast as high as could. of
> course this may change when printing on a pcb.
> I am sure all the printer setting plus diferent mixture of liquids
> will have to be adjusted as i work it out.
> NOW----I dont know how long the print head will set being not used
> before it drys out in the print head with this blend of liquids.the
> piezo print head is working so far.
> wish me luck
> mebo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus" <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> got he epson stylus color II going, got the mixture of 15 ml
> MOP&GLO,9 ml red food coloring, 9 ml water through the black print
> head. had to clean the black print head several times,there is no way
> of knowing how long the printer had sat drying out. was about to give
> up when the new ink came through. it came out light colored print but
> very clear and sharp letters, may need to be light when printing on a
> pcb because the copper doesnt absorb the ink. had to set the
> brightness as dark as could and the contrast as high as could. of
> course this may change when printing on a pcb.
> I am sure all the printer setting plus diferent mixture of liquids
> will have to be adjusted as i work it out.
> NOW----I dont know how long the print head will set being not used
> before it drys out in the print head with this blend of liquids.the
> piezo print head is working so far.
> wish me luck
> mebo
>

> Yeah!
>
> How about using black injet ink? I think it'll be denser than food
> coloring.
>
> Try mixing it outside the printer first, to make sure it doesn't react
> and glob up.
>
> Heating the board before printing may help it dry before it gets a
> chance to run.
>
> Steve
>

> I dont know how long the print head will set being not used before it

> the print head with this blend of liquids.the piezo print head is

> wish me luck
> mebo

> Pebo
> To keep it from drying out, try putting a paper towel moistened with
> mop n glo
> over the jet exhaust (vrooooom) and put it in a plastic bag so that
> doesn't dry out.
> RM
> PS Sorry about that last subject line - I'm just stoopid ;-)
> PPS Good Luck
> > I dont know how long the print head will set being not used

> drys out in
> > the print head with this blend of liquids.the piezo print head is
> working so far.
> > wish me luck
> > mebo

> Epson heads are not removeable.
>
> I believe Mop and Glo, like Future Floor Polish, is soluble in
> household ammonia. One of the tricks to clean partly clogged heads is
> to put a few drops of Windex with Ammonia on the park pad before
> turning the printer off.
>
> More Mop and Glo would just make a dried out mess, I'd think.

>Why would you print onto the screen? A screen has to be exposed just
>like photosensitive PCBs so you print a transparency then expose and
>develop the screen.
>
>It's been discussed here quite a bit, that fabric printing screens are
>just not fine enough mesh to screenprint etch resist.
>
>If you mean can the screenprint inks be fed into an inkjet printer,
>no, they are way too thick.
>
>I am going to try the pigmented inks I use directly onto a PCB. I am
>assuming I'll have problems with puddling, so I'm going to start out
>with a hot board and lay down very little ink for a start. I have some
>thin PCB about the thickness of a business card, that should feed fine
>in my printer.
>
>Steve
>
>
>

> thanks to every one for the good words and ideas. i am
> having a little trouble getting my ink through the
> head now. maybe it is to thick, it will print--then
> have to clean the head, one instance i waited a bit
> and it printed ok, i think i am going to have to use
> thinner ink. i am hesitant to use the regular ink in
> my mixture because it has glycerene in it and it
> doesnt dry. i think it is a good idea to put some
> ammonia on the rest pad, iam aware ammonia will clean
> mop&glo.imho i think i need to add just a touch more
> percentage of alcohol to the mixture. it looks a bit
> hard to get the print heads off of this epson stylus
> color II, i cleaned the heads on an 880 and the holes
> were open but the printer didnt work. seems the epson
> stylus color II is easier to work with because it has
> manual paper feed and punch two buttons to clean the
> heads. I havent printed on a pcb yet, just got the
> epson II back cut out so could feed pcb through. then
> i was trying paper just to see if the printer still
> printed, then is when i started to have problems with
> the ink. as i have stated before i put a dot of
> mop&glo on a pcb and it appeared to be usable as a
> resist. we will keep trying
> mebo
>

> Steve wrote:
> > Epson heads are not removeable.
> >
> > I believe Mop and Glo, like Future Floor Polish, is soluble in
> > household ammonia. One of the tricks to clean partly clogged heads is
> > to put a few drops of Windex with Ammonia on the park pad before
> > turning the printer off.
> >
> > More Mop and Glo would just make a dried out mess, I'd think.
>
> I've always had best success unclogging epson heads by putting
> in a genuine epson ink tank which seems to have good solvent action.
> You might need to do the clean/flush cycle 5-10 times.

> Hi mebo...
>
> It is good to hear that you have done some more experimenting...
>
> I really NEED to know if it works soon, i could get this stylus

> with probably only a mech. problem for free, but i must fetch it

> which is no little effort (It is located on the ... of the world).
>
> I think the layer of ink is not consistent, i think there will be

> of droplets and open space between. I like to be prooved wrong in

> case ;-).
>
>
> I am not much interested in a two component approach, i think
> it will then get to the same effort level as TT which works

> already.
>
>
> Please try to etch a board, or try to look with a magnifier or

> on the
> ink layer. if it is a closed layer it should after all be possible

> a ink that
> is working. even if the layer is too thin we might just print

> times.
>
> I just have this image of a lot of little droplets with a lot of

> tension in my head.
> (I tried to print on a uncoated ohp transparency and it looked like

> of course then i used the wrong ink and copper is different but

>
>
> I have wasted time, and money, with that damn bubblejet, in the end
> getting nothing
> of any use at all... I am somewhat reluctant to repeat this.

> problem
> i have had does not occur with your printer obviously, and it might

> On the other hand the next unsolveable problem may just be a few

> ahead....
>
>
>
> ST

> you are right Phil---this AINT gonna happen over night. the wife is
> wanting to plant garden so i may be away for a day or two. i took a
> picture(and will post) of what i had printed with the ink mixture and
> etched didnt come out well at all. the print was real light , if the
> printer had been printing like it has at one time the etch would have
> been much better(but probably not perfect). i am going to have to get
> a mixture that will spread just a bit yet not run. BUT some of this
> depends on how you clean your board.IMHO laquer thinner(or aceatone)
> works well for oil based resist. soap, water and brillo pad , then
> windex works best for water based resists.
> we will keep trying
> mebo
>
>

> Hey, I was just surfing, and ended up at a site for a 3D prototype

> <http://www.zcorp.com> (interesting in it's own right)
> They use an inkjet printer to print a liquid that binds plaster

> together to
> make their models. Sounds almost like regular inkjet except they

> another
> set of nozzles that prints clear, and always output the same amount

> liquid.
> They print with a full color inkjet head and give full color 3d

> But I digress.
> Direct printing of a pcb, version 0.01
> Make the inkjet head transform in the Y, as well as X axis.
> Put a piece of fiber-glass on a flat bed.
> Spread powdered solder on the board to an even level.
> Print on it, wetting the powder where you want a trace.
> Dump off the dry powder.
> Put it in a toaster and reflow the stuff the ink kept in place.
> If you have surface mount components, put them in place prior to

> reflow.
>
> I think the resolution would be controlled by the fineness of the

> on the solder
> more than the resolution of the printer.
>
> I suspect there are issues with:
> grinding the solder fine enough
> (not an issue - it's manufactured to the tiny as s--t level)
> wetting the powder enough with a regular inkjet
> (how thick does powder layer need to be?)
> keeping the wet powder right where you want it
> (need something that wets the board as well as the solder)
> getting the reflowed solder to stay where you want it
> (would some kind of flux work as a wetting agent and keep the
> reflowed solder from running or balling? means printing flux)
>
> The Dow Corning PI-1000 copper based conductive ink is made with

> powder and solder powder. The curing process has two purposes:
> 1) it actually cures the binder
> 2) it melts the solder powder so that it produces the copper to

> connection
>
> Using copper keeps the resistance down, and is exactly what we

> Using the solder binds everything, just like we would want. I

> think the fiber
> glass would take the temperatures required to 'reflow' the copper

> by itself,
> (not to mention my toaster won't, either) so the solder powder is

> A quick look showed a number of copper powder manufacturers, and

> paste manufacturing uses solder powders. I'll try and get more
> information on the
> materials next week. it's tough to do on the weekends.
> Richard

> DO NOT use black laytex paint in your cart. tried it today and there
> is a fine micro screen in the bottom of the ink cart, the laytex will
> plug it up. looks like I am going to have to stay with dye.
> mebo
>
>

> ok, thanks.. (is laytex a company or what? is it
> latex paint?????????)
>
> good luck... hope you get that thing cleaned out
> again for further
> trying..
>
> can you get your hands on red staedtler ink?
> i really think this is a good candidate..
>
> Did you try the mop'n glo again with the flushed
> head?
>
> Please describe what the current status is,
> is the problem the layer thickness/consistency?
> or are not all jets printing full amount?
>
>
> I would first try acrylic paint, like floor polish,
> as thick at it fits through,
> then i would try the staedtler red,
> and maybe another option could be UV curing ink.
> (i think it allows slightly thicker layers with the
> same initial amount
> because there is no solvent, or is there?)
>
> Keep us informed..
>
> ST
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

> yes st, i mixed mop&glo with artist black acrylic
> paint,the paint seperated from the water in the
> mixture. I could not get the printer to print, so I
> took the cart apart(prized the top off) took out the
> spoung and there is a micro screen over the orfice
> going to the print heads. the paint pluged it up.had a
> dickens of a time getting that screen clean. then i
> cleaned my print head again and it was kinda stopped
> up ,but got ammonia through it again. went to the
> store and bought a bottle of black ritz dye, put some
> of it and some more mop&glow in the cart and it still
> didnt work out. i will order 2 new carts monday and
> see if the regular ink will still print. will take two
> or three days for them to arrive. am thinking now of
> changing from mop&glo to Johnsons acrylic liquid floor
> wax with just a touch of ritz dye in it. will see if
> that stops things up.now that i know how the carts are
> made it will be easier to work with them.i have a air
> compresser and can blow back through the screen in the
> cart and maybe clean it. i have seen on other posts
> that some folks are looking at alps heated impact
> printers, if i can find one that works one may get
> into that also.
> mebo

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, pebo festus
> <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> > yes st, i mixed mop&glo with artist black acrylic
> > paint,the paint seperated from the water in the
> > mixture. I could not get the printer to print, so
> I
> > took the cart apart(prized the top off) took out
> the
> > spoung and there is a micro screen over the orfice
> > going to the print heads. the paint pluged it
> up.had a
> > dickens of a time getting that screen clean. then
> i
> > cleaned my print head again and it was kinda
> stopped
> > up ,but got ammonia through it again. went to the
> > store and bought a bottle of black ritz dye, put
> some
> > of it and some more mop&glow in the cart and it
> still
> > didnt work out. i will order 2 new carts monday
> and
> > see if the regular ink will still print. will take
> two
> > or three days for them to arrive. am thinking now
> of
> > changing from mop&glo to Johnsons acrylic liquid
> floor
> > wax with just a touch of ritz dye in it. will see
> if
> > that stops things up.now that i know how the carts
> are
> > made it will be easier to work with them.i have a
> air
> > compresser and can blow back through the screen in
> the
> > cart and maybe clean it. i have seen on other
> posts
> > that some folks are looking at alps heated impact
> > printers, if i can find one that works one may get
> > into that also.
> > mebo
>
> Alps wax thermal are not impact. Just heat.
>
> Why not mix some refill black inkjet ink? It's meant
> to go through the
> heads. The glycol will dry, it just slows it down
> and perhaps a bit
> of heat will speed that up.
>
> Ritz dye has a lot of salt in it.
>
> Don't use an air compressor! You'll almost certainly
> ruin the heads.
> Even using a syringe to clean the heads, you must
> press only slowly
> and never very hard.
>
> Here are some links to websites on cleaning Epson
> print-heads:
>
> Cleaning Epson print head
> Mentions cleaning the waste ink sponge aka blotter
>

>
> Cleaning Epson print heads
> Using hot water and a syringe to force the dried ink
> out.
>

>
> Epson print heads deconstructed
> print heads deconstructed. See how tiny the nozzles
> are? This is why
> you -never- poke the heads with anything trying to
> release a clog!
> Includes Epson patent drawings. Very informative.
> http://members.shaw.ca/hargravep/head.htm
>
> Heavy duty head flushing
> Hot cleaning solution forced through with a syringe.
>

>
> Inkjet Art heavy purging of Epson print heads
> Automatic purging by removing the ink carts and
> turning off the
> printer. Includes TIFF files to print to purge 98%
> of the ink left.
> Aimed mainly at getting all the OEM inks out when
> changing to 3rd
> party inks.
> http://www.inkjetart.com/archival_inks/purging.html
>
> Max Patch Ink's cleaning instructions
> Claims to be the same cleaning solution and
> procedure as used by Epson
> factory techs.
>

>
> Alien Steve
>
>

> I've been following this thread with interest. Seems that direct
> printing of a PCB mask is something of the holy grail to us homebrew
> types.
>
> One thought just occurred to me. Since they sell pens that you can use
> to draw your own layouts (i.e. Sharpie pens), how about finding out
> what ink is used in those and fill an ink cartridge with that?
>
> I know this is obvious, but I've heard lots of other complex formula
> that don't seem to work and lead to clogging. The Sharpie ink seems
> based on a volatile solvent that dries very fast. The solvent may also
> help to resolve head clogging problems as it might be a self-cleaning
> solution. One problem I can see is that it may be so fluid that it
> would just drain out of the cart. But perhaps this could be resolved
> by altering the vent ports to allow less air in.
>
> Hope somebody figures this out.
> -Ted
>
>

> yes st, i mixed mop&glo with artist black acrylic
> paint,the paint seperated from the water in the
> mixture. I could not get the printer to print, so I
> took the cart apart(prized the top off) took out the
> spoung and there is a micro screen over the orfice
> going to the print heads. the paint pluged it up.had a
> dickens of a time getting that screen clean. then i
> cleaned my print head again and it was kinda stopped
> up ,but got ammonia through it again. went to the
> store and bought a bottle of black ritz dye, put some
> of it and some more mop&glow in the cart and it still
> didnt work out. i will order 2 new carts monday and
> see if the regular ink will still print. will take two
> or three days for them to arrive. am thinking now of
> changing from mop&glo to Johnsons acrylic liquid floor
> wax with just a touch of ritz dye in it. will see if
> that stops things up.now that i know how the carts are
> made it will be easier to work with them.i have a air
> compresser and can blow back through the screen in the
> cart and maybe clean it. i have seen on other posts
> that some folks are looking at alps heated impact
> printers, if i can find one that works one may get
> into that also.
> mebo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> ok, thanks.. (is laytex a company or what? is it
>> latex paint?????????)
>>
>> good luck... hope you get that thing cleaned out
>> again for further
>> trying..
>>
>> can you get your hands on red staedtler ink?
>> i really think this is a good candidate..
>>
>> Did you try the mop'n glo again with the flushed
>> head?
>>
>> Please describe what the current status is,
>> is the problem the layer thickness/consistency?
>> or are not all jets printing full amount?
>>
>>
>> I would first try acrylic paint, like floor polish,
>> as thick at it fits through,
>> then i would try the staedtler red,
>> and maybe another option could be UV curing ink.
>> (i think it allows slightly thicker layers with the
>> same initial amount
>> because there is no solvent, or is there?)
>>
>> Keep us informed..
>>
>> ST
>>
>>
>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
>> Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:17:16 -0000, Ted Inoue
> <ted@...>
> wrote:
>
> > I've been following this thread with interest.
> Seems that direct
> > printing of a PCB mask is something of the holy
> grail to us homebrew
> > types.
> >
> > One thought just occurred to me. Since they sell
> pens that you can use
> > to draw your own layouts (i.e. Sharpie pens), how
> about finding out
> > what ink is used in those and fill an ink
> cartridge with that?
> >
> > I know this is obvious, but I've heard lots of
> other complex formula
> > that don't seem to work and lead to clogging. The
> Sharpie ink seems
> > based on a volatile solvent that dries very fast.
> The solvent may also
> > help to resolve head clogging problems as it might
> be a self-cleaning
> > solution. One problem I can see is that it may be
> so fluid that it
> > would just drain out of the cart. But perhaps this
> could be resolved
> > by altering the vent ports to allow less air in.
> >
> > Hope somebody figures this out.
> > -Ted
> >
> >
>
> I suggested a few hundred times staedtler red, i
> have no sharpie pen here
> and
> i think it is similar.
> Maybe in the other mail from pebo is a comment on it
> (i still need to
> read).
> I agree that it is a obvious thing to try as it is
> known to work as a
> resist.
>
> ST
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

> I feel one would need to stay with ink fluids that can
> be cleaned with water solvent cleaners. from my
> experence with paints, if a solvent based ink dries in
> the head there is no way to clean it, it drys hard and
> solvent cleaner would not penatrate the pluged nozzel.
> just stating my thoughts. i may be wrong. it is a
> tough issue. have googled about banner printers but i
> dont know what size printer holes thay have and
> probably could not get the ink in small amount.
> I read the label on the ritz dye about the salt( i am
> not a chemist) but if the salt is desolved the salt
> particles should not be very large and should pass the
> printer holes.please correct me if i am wrong. if i
> have damaged this old epson stylus color II print head
> i may be looking for another one because it converts
> to a flat bed very easy for me.
> every one keep the suggestions coming, i need all the
> help i can get.
> mebo
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, pebo festus <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> I feel one would need to stay with ink fluids that can
> be cleaned with water solvent cleaners. from my
> experence with paints, if a solvent based ink dries in
> the head there is no way to clean it, it drys hard and
> solvent cleaner would not penatrate the pluged nozzel.
> just stating my thoughts. i may be wrong. it is a
> tough issue. have googled about banner printers but i
> dont know what size printer holes thay have and
> probably could not get the ink in small amount.
> I read the label on the ritz dye about the salt( i am
> not a chemist) but if the salt is desolved the salt
> particles should not be very large and should pass the
> printer holes.please correct me if i am wrong. if i
> have damaged this old epson stylus color II print head
> i may be looking for another one because it converts
> to a flat bed very easy for me.
> every one keep the suggestions coming, i need all the
> help i can get.
> mebo
>

> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:17:16 -0000, Ted Inoue <ted@s...>
> wrote:
>
> > I've been following this thread with interest. Seems that direct
> > printing of a PCB mask is something of the holy grail to us

> > types.
> >
> > One thought just occurred to me. Since they sell pens that you can

> > to draw your own layouts (i.e. Sharpie pens), how about finding

> > what ink is used in those and fill an ink cartridge with that?
> >
> > I know this is obvious, but I've heard lots of other complex

> > that don't seem to work and lead to clogging. The Sharpie ink

> > based on a volatile solvent that dries very fast. The solvent may

> > help to resolve head clogging problems as it might be a

> > solution. One problem I can see is that it may be so fluid that it
> > would just drain out of the cart. But perhaps this could be

> > by altering the vent ports to allow less air in.
> >
> > Hope somebody figures this out.
> > -Ted
> >
> >
>
> I suggested a few hundred times staedtler red, i have no sharpie pen

> and
> i think it is similar.
> Maybe in the other mail from pebo is a comment on it (i still need

> read).
> I agree that it is a obvious thing to try as it is known to work as

> resist.
>
> ST

> ah yes, after searching I see your posts and discussion.
> Hopefully someone will try this out. I have an old epson in a box that
> maybe I can sacrifice.
> Anybody know where I could get some of that staedtler red in bulk?
> I've not yet researched this so still need to Google it...
> -Ted
>

> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:25:49 -0000, Ted Inoue <ted@s...>
> wrote:
>
> > ah yes, after searching I see your posts and discussion.
> > Hopefully someone will try this out. I have an old epson in a box that
> > maybe I can sacrifice.
> > Anybody know where I could get some of that staedtler red in bulk?
> > I've not yet researched this so still need to Google it...
> > -Ted
> >
>
>
> I only know i can have it in 15mL refil for some ????? 3 eur????.
> This is not much but it will refill a few pens (and it would print a

> pcbs.)
>
> I have not seen in in bigger quantities. The inks of the other

> can be
> had in big bottles (500mL) off he shelf (100mL and so on also..).. i do
> not remember
> the price but it is more economical...
>
> However the other pens i tried are by far not as good as the

> (I have not tried all colors).
>
> You can see the staedtler refill here:
>

>
> You can find it in the USA at www.staedtler.us
>
> http://www.staedtler.co.uk for UK.
>
> and of course .de in germany and .co.at in austria.
>
> http://www.staedtler.com.au is australia.
>
> They might know who sells their products in your country.

> I found out that Staedler sells a pigmented ink for piezo printers
> including Epson.
>
> <http://www.staedtler-inkjet.com/>
>
> No, it's probably not the same as the ink in their Lumocolor 313.

>
> I'm having an extraordinarily hard time finding refill ink for
> Staedtler. I found it from Higgins for $3.16 for 1 oz (about 28ml?)
> for $3.19, pigmented waterproof inks. Cheaper than inkjet ink! May be
> too thick, though.

>
> http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=1848
>
> Rapidograph is a bit more at $3.70 for 3/4 oz. Says it's waterproof
> and dries on all surfaces.
>
> http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=1857

>
> This black refill says it's free-flowing and waterproof. $2.95 for a
> 2.5 oz bottle.
>
> http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=1843
>
> All their ink refills:
> http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=1832
>
> Need to find Staedtler ink.
>
> Found a part number: 488 50-2 Searching Staedtler.CA for 488 50 turns
> up nothing.
>
> Searching Staedtler.de and Staedtler.co.uk shows up, in 30ml bottles.

>
> Intensive Froogle searching turns up nothing.
>
> Google searches all seem to end on the other side of the pond. It
> doesn't seem to be available in bottles in North America!
>
> Success! 2.75 pounds
> <http://www.smartshopper.com.cy/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item=OSMHREST-003&type=store&template=1x9>

>
>
> Steve

> Please mebo
> ( i hope this is how you like to be called...)
>
> Do not attempt to color the resist any more.
> It is really not needed and it adds a unknown
> variable with
> maybe very bad results. (see the black paint).
> You want to reduce variables, not add them.
>
> I hope it is not too expensive to change this
> head....
>
> I also hope you tell me if you plan to try sharpie
> or staedtler red ink.
>
> The coloring seems to add a huge unpredictable risk,
> you do not
> konw if the color itself, or in combination/reaction
> with the resist
> will cause problems.
>
> On the other hand i do not think the color will
> improove the resist
> functionality.
> It is only for visibility i assume. I do not deny
> that this will be a very
> important
> feature in the final mixture but i do think that we
> have time then to try
> which colorant
> is suited for the resist.
>
> When you have the heads i would first try the
> acrylic floor polish.
> try it as it comes out from the can (it it is the
> same density as the bona
> polish
> i have it seems not to be too thick).
> You may also try to dilute it first to 50% or 25%,
> to be sure it will not
> clog the head.
> if the resist layer is too thin then (which i
> expect) you can try thicker
> stuff.
>
> You should be able to see the layer of clear laquer
> if you hold the board
> at an angle
> against a light source. of course you also should
> immediately see the
> result in the etchant.
> Make sure the polish is completely dry (maybe dry in
> a oven).
>
>
> Best luck with your next experiment..
>
> ST
>
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:50:03 -0800 (PST), pebo
> festus <mebo31@...>
> wrote:
>
> > yes st, i mixed mop&glo with artist black acrylic
> > paint,the paint seperated from the water in the
> > mixture. I could not get the printer to print, so
> I
> > took the cart apart(prized the top off) took out
> the
> > spoung and there is a micro screen over the orfice
> > going to the print heads. the paint pluged it
> up.had a
> > dickens of a time getting that screen clean. then
> i
> > cleaned my print head again and it was kinda
> stopped
> > up ,but got ammonia through it again. went to the
> > store and bought a bottle of black ritz dye, put
> some
> > of it and some more mop&glow in the cart and it
> still
> > didnt work out. i will order 2 new carts monday
> and
> > see if the regular ink will still print. will take
> two
> > or three days for them to arrive. am thinking now
> of
> > changing from mop&glo to Johnsons acrylic liquid
> floor
> > wax with just a touch of ritz dye in it. will see
> if
> > that stops things up.now that i know how the carts
> are
> > made it will be easier to work with them.i have a
> air
> > compresser and can blow back through the screen in
> the
> > cart and maybe clean it. i have seen on other
> posts
> > that some folks are looking at alps heated impact
> > printers, if i can find one that works one may get
> > into that also.
> > mebo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> ok, thanks.. (is laytex a company or what? is it
> >> latex paint?????????)
> >>
> >> good luck... hope you get that thing cleaned out
> >> again for further
> >> trying..
> >>
> >> can you get your hands on red staedtler ink?
> >> i really think this is a good candidate..
> >>
> >> Did you try the mop'n glo again with the flushed
> >> head?
> >>
> >> Please describe what the current status is,
> >> is the problem the layer thickness/consistency?
> >> or are not all jets printing full amount?
> >>
> >>
> >> I would first try acrylic paint, like floor
> polish,
> >> as thick at it fits through,
> >> then i would try the staedtler red,
> >> and maybe another option could be UV curing ink.
> >> (i think it allows slightly thicker layers with
> the
> >> same initial amount
> >> because there is no solvent, or is there?)
> >>
> >> Keep us informed..
> >>
> >> ST
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >>
> >> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> >> Bookmarks and files:
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less
> spam
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
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> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, pebo festus <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> thanks st,
> imho you compleatly right on you post. i will look at
> the steadtler ink, buuuut if it solvent based i am
> just leary of tring it, if it is solvent based and it
> sets up or dries out in the head i would never get it
> out. by the way i havent ordered print heads--- just
> carts. i think my heads are open. this is just going
> to be trial and error--mostly error. i keep thinking
> someone can think of some fluid that will work.it is
> going to be diffecult and consume lots of time to try
> every thing. if we could get some one in that is
> already in the business of flat bed printing to help
> us it would save gobs of trial and error experminting.
> as far as coloring the etch resist it doesnt have to
> be in the mix, its just let you see what your printer
> is doing. and yes it may make a difference on how the
> resist works.
>

> thanks st,
> imho you compleatly right on you post. i will look at
> the steadtler ink, buuuut if it solvent based i am
> just leary of tring it, if it is solvent based and it
> sets up or dries out in the head i would never get it
> out. by the way i havent ordered print heads--- just
> carts. i think my heads are open. this is just going
> to be trial and error--mostly error. i keep thinking
> someone can think of some fluid that will work.it is
> going to be diffecult and consume lots of time to try
> every thing. if we could get some one in that is
> already in the business of flat bed printing to help
> us it would save gobs of trial and error experminting.
> as far as coloring the etch resist it doesnt have to
> be in the mix, its just let you see what your printer
> is doing. and yes it may make a difference on how the
> resist works.

> You have seen that Staedtler does produce inkjet carts/refill ink

> the large designjet and epson large format printers. I doubt

> the lumocolor red 31x type, but who knows...
>
> http://www.inkjet.staedtler.de

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus" <mebo31@y...> wrote:
...
> the future is kinda thin so i may have to put a piece of thin felt on
> the head park to keep it from draining out, also this may help to
> keep the head from drying. will try adding more food coloring(with
> glycol in it) to keep it from drying to fast.

Don't place anything on the park pad! Anything that touches the head
will wick liquid out, and anything that overhangs the rubber seal will
cause it to dry out.

Maybe the heads will have to be flushed with a water/ammonia mixture
when you are done printing for the day. Even dried Future dissolves in
household ammonia, although I wouldn't guarantee it if it dried in the
heads.

Steve

> Acrylic paint is water cleanup yet as Stefan points out, once it's

> that's it.
>
> And the whole point is to use something that -can't- be dissolved by
> water once it's dry.
>
> Skip the color for now. As pointed out, test coverage by a quick

>
> And it might help the Mop and Glo to stay in place if (as suggested
> here much earlier) after you clean the board, give it a very short
> etch in the acid, rinse and print. This will give the surface a
> slightly rough finish which may prevent the Mop and Glo from simply
> beading up.
>
> My point about the salt is that you don't know how Mop and Glo is
> going to react with the salt. Salt breaks up into sodium and

> that is how all salts dissolve in water. This means they tend to be
> very reactive.
>
> Also, a word about pigments: pigments are made of chunks of color.
> Pigmented inks made for inkjet printers are specially made to have
> chunks small enough to go through the whole kit-and-kaboodle. Paint

> not.
>
> If I weren't so broke, I'd have tried to get some of the Staedler

> ink and tried it myself. It might mean the printer has to be cleaned
> more often, but that's a small price.
>
> Steve
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, pebo festus <mebo31@y...>

> > I feel one would need to stay with ink fluids that can
> > be cleaned with water solvent cleaners. from my
> > experence with paints, if a solvent based ink dries in
> > the head there is no way to clean it, it drys hard and
> > solvent cleaner would not penatrate the pluged nozzel.
> > just stating my thoughts. i may be wrong. it is a
> > tough issue. have googled about banner printers but i
> > dont know what size printer holes thay have and
> > probably could not get the ink in small amount.
> > I read the label on the ritz dye about the salt( i am
> > not a chemist) but if the salt is desolved the salt
> > particles should not be very large and should pass the
> > printer holes.please correct me if i am wrong. if i
> > have damaged this old epson stylus color II print head
> > i may be looking for another one because it converts
> > to a flat bed very easy for me.
> > every one keep the suggestions coming, i need all the
> > help i can get.
> > mebo
> >

> Hello,
>
> Is the staedtler red ink that's available for inking rubber stamps
> what we're talking about here?
>
> I had only seen results using a staedtler pen. Has the raw ink been
> tested and found to work? (not asking about in an ink jet, just
> asking if the ink itself survives the etchant...
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Ballendo
>

> I have sent staedtler an email asking if they have an ink for an
> piezo ink printer that i can print on printed curcuit board with a
> flat bed printer and stay on during the etch. we will see if they
> respond.

> i have new ink carts ordered, while i am waiting for them to come in
> i am toying with FUTURE floor finish, its the acrylic liquid made by
> S.C Johnson. put some small marks on a pcb, will see how water proof
> it is when it drys. tryed mixing some higgins black india ink with it
> (didnt work) also rit dye(didnt work). put some thin marks with food
> coloring(green) but has propalene glycol in it, will see if it is
> water proof if it drys.
>
>

> ok, staedtler responded, but wanted more info, told
> them what printer, piezo head , printing on pcb,
> needed to be water proof for the etch we will see what
> their response is.

> the laytex paint i tryed to use was a paste, it came
> in a tube, use by artist.--- didnt work.
> tryed FUTURE and higgin india black in---didnt work.

> to st--- i need a little color to seee what the
> printer is doing. have come to the conclusion that
> steve is right, glycol and FUTURE will dry and make a
> good resist, just gotta try different amounts of
> glycol in the mix, then see how it prints on the
> board.
>
> the glycol has a slight pinkish color in it so
> probably will not add additonal color.also the glycol
> is thicker--should stay in the cart better.

> folks there are lot of questions, i dont have time to
> try them all, if you have an idea ---try it and let us
> know how it works out. i have one piezo head printer
> and it takes time to try a ink, then i have to clean
> the heads, if they stop up i will be out of business
> untill i can get another printer that i can convert to
> flat bed.

> Hey guys,
> I have been following this conversation back since
> its inception,
> and am very excited that this may work better than
> toner transfer.
> Can you tell me what type of printers are being
> used? Could the
> standard ol' HP inkjet be modified with some kind of
> rear-entry that
> turns it into a flat bed?
>
>
> -Josh
>
>
>

> Hey folks,
> I found an interesting article about pigments, dyes, inks and
> inkjets for the uninitiated and the curious alike:
>
> http://www.screenweb.com/inks/cont/inkstrategyb.htm
>
>
> -Josh

> I too have followed this thread and I am not sure if
> the question was
> brought up but I am wondering(as always;) if the
> inkjet printing of a
> pcb will allow for double-sided images? I fear that
> loading a pcb
> from the back will fudge with the roller timings.
> Hopefully I'm wrong
> because I just got an epson stylus II to mess
> with...
>
>

> with the experence i have had with the II, it will not
> work,the the roller feed IMHO is just to sloppy.but
> you might find a work around. i have got to get the
> right resist through the printer working before going
> to the next hurtle.
> mebo
>
>

> On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:30:15 -0800 (PST), pebo festus <mebo31@y...>
> wrote:
>
> > with the experence i have had with the II, it will not
> > work,the the roller feed IMHO is just to sloppy.but
> > you might find a work around. i have got to get the
> > right resist through the printer working before going
> > to the next hurtle.
> > mebo
> >
> >
>
> I would have guessed it does work.
> there is a optical sensor for the paper edge in hp printers, one
> would expect epson to use a similar system.
>
> then you only need to adjust the other distance, which would be

> with a real "table" for the pcb.
> (e.g. a pig plate that is moved by the rollers)
>
> even with a piece of paper it is hard to print on the same spot

> but i think it would work properly if you make a flat carriage on a

> in the center, just let the carriage rest on the drive roller....

> small pressure wheels on the side to keep contact to the rollers)
> for a rail one could use a drawer slide, or simply a piece of steel

> a brass bracket soldered/glued to the underside of the pcb which

> carriage.
>
>
> i do think the printer starts to print a exact number of steps

> optical
> sensor contact and a exact distance away from the border.
> It is just a question of putting the pcb in the right place.
>
> ST

> stefan-- are you still looking for a manual for a panasonic kx

> - if so here is a link. i just came by one and it looks promising

> pcb, has bottem feed streight through.
>
>

> ts/Dot_Matrix_Printers/KX/P2123/B2123.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:30:15 -0800 (PST), pebo festus

> > wrote:
> >
> > > with the experence i have had with the II, it will not
> > > work,the the roller feed IMHO is just to sloppy.but
> > > you might find a work around. i have got to get the
> > > right resist through the printer working before going
> > > to the next hurtle.
> > > mebo
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I would have guessed it does work.
> > there is a optical sensor for the paper edge in hp printers, one
> > would expect epson to use a similar system.
> >
> > then you only need to adjust the other distance, which would be
> much easier
> > with a real "table" for the pcb.
> > (e.g. a pig plate that is moved by the rollers)
> >
> > even with a piece of paper it is hard to print on the same spot
> twice,
> > but i think it would work properly if you make a flat carriage on

> rail
> > in the center, just let the carriage rest on the drive roller....
> (use
> > small pressure wheels on the side to keep contact to the rollers)
> > for a rail one could use a drawer slide, or simply a piece of

> and
> > a brass bracket soldered/glued to the underside of the pcb which
> forms the
> > carriage.
> >
> >
> > i do think the printer starts to print a exact number of steps
> after the
> > optical
> > sensor contact and a exact distance away from the border.
> > It is just a question of putting the pcb in the right place.
> >
> > ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus" <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> oops the link didnt work---but the manual is online.
>
>

> stefan-- are you still looking for a manual for a panasonic kx p2123?-
> - if so here is a link. i just came by one and it looks promising for
> pcb, has bottem feed streight through.
>
> http://www.support.panasonic.co.uk/sys/ttips/Panasonic/Computer_Produc
> ts/Dot_Matrix_Printers/KX/P2123/B2123.pdf
>
>

> On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:23:50 -0000, pebo festus
> <mebo31@...> wrote:
>
> > stefan-- are you still looking for a manual for a
> panasonic kx p2123?-
> > - if so here is a link. i just came by one and it
> looks promising for
> > pcb, has bottem feed streight through.
> >
> >
>

> > ts/Dot_Matrix_Printers/KX/P2123/B2123.pdf
> >
> >
>
> Oh, thanks...
> It is only i do not remember ever needing that
> manual?
> Maybe i did forget it simply. Now i do not feel the
> need
> to read that manual, if you know why i need it
> please tell me.
>
> However it is a dot matrix printer, i do not think
> you can print
> resist with it?
>
> thanks
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>

> I never did hear back from staedtler inks after i related what i was
> trying to do--i guess i am not a big enough fish.
> meho
>

> I stumbled across a site that talks about Die Sublimation Inkjet ink
> "SubliBrite".
> It looks like it is usable in an epson-800, but it's $175.00 for a

> cartridge. Site:
> <http://www.bay-mall.net/stores/Sub/ink.html>
> Richard

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus" <mebo31@y...> wrote:
> I posted a pic of a pcb i printed on. did the printing with the
> regular ink in the cart. of course it isnt resist proof. just wanted
> to see if could get the pcb through the printer. you can view the
> results. going to be away for a while but will start trying different
> resist combinations when i return.
> mebo

> I just got an Epson 600 from a thrift store a few days ago, got it
> cleaned up and printing perfectly. Next step is to modify it for
> straight through printing.

>Re: straight-through printing,
><http://www.datadev.com/rim13c.html>http://www.datadev.com/rim13c.html
>
>A.J.

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...>
> > wrote:
> > I just got an Epson 600 from a thrift store a few days ago, got it
> > cleaned up and printing perfectly. Next step is to modify it for
> > straight through printing.
>
> Re: straight-through printing,
>
> I was in Best Buy the other day and saw some DVD-Rs that said
> something on the package about having a specially prepared surface
> that could be directly printed by inkjet. This was news to me, so I
> went over to the printer section and sure enough, the Epson Stylus
> Photo R300 (and more expensive R300M) can print directly on a disc!
> A Google search reveals several other machines that can do this too;
> many are specialized devices that *only* print on discs, while
> others are general-purpose printers too. Most of them seem to use a
> special tray to align the discs to the printhead. Here's one that
> prints up to 6 discs at a time on a tray that feeds *through* the
> printer from back to front:
> http://www.datadev.com/rim13c.html
>
> Too bad it's so expensive! I think in the next couple of years,
> something like this will start to become available used at low cost.
> It looks like the tray could easily be adapted for circuit boards,
> no cutting up or modifying the printer case and drive mechanism to
> handle boards. You could probably buy a replacement tray from the
> manufacturer and keep the disc-printing ability by swapping trays.
> It may be necessary to fiddle with hardware to make a combo paper/
> disc printer feed its disc tray even when you tell it you're
> printing paper, so you can get full coverage of your board rather
> than just 5 inch circles (I'm sure the built in software is designed
> not to allow printing on the tray itself), but this shouldn't be too
> hard...

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...>
> wrote:
> > I just got an Epson 600 from a thrift store a few days ago, got it
> > cleaned up and printing perfectly. Next step is to modify it for
> > straight through printing.
>
> Re: straight-through printing,
>
> I was in Best Buy the other day and saw some DVD-Rs that said
> something on the package about having a specially prepared surface
> that could be directly printed by inkjet. This was news to me, so I
> went over to the printer section and sure enough, the Epson Stylus
> Photo R300 (and more expensive R300M) can print directly on a disc!
> A Google search reveals several other machines that can do this too;
> many are specialized devices that *only* print on discs, while
> others are general-purpose printers too. Most of them seem to use a
> special tray to align the discs to the printhead. Here's one that
> prints up to 6 discs at a time on a tray that feeds *through* the
> printer from back to front:
> http://www.datadev.com/rim13c.html
>
> Too bad it's so expensive! I think in the next couple of years,
> something like this will start to become available used at low cost.
> It looks like the tray could easily be adapted for circuit boards,
> no cutting up or modifying the printer case and drive mechanism to
> handle boards. You could probably buy a replacement tray from the
> manufacturer and keep the disc-printing ability by swapping trays.
> It may be necessary to fiddle with hardware to make a combo paper/
> disc printer feed its disc tray even when you tell it you're
> printing paper, so you can get full coverage of your board rather
> than just 5 inch circles (I'm sure the built in software is designed
> not to allow printing on the tray itself), but this shouldn't be too
> hard...

> I have brought this up in the past: how about one of those wax CD
> printers? Wax is definitely waterproof. The question would be, does
> the printed wax 100% cover? Thermal wax CD printers don't require
> special coatings. As you say, different printing software and modify
> the tray to take square PCBs. Or the novelty of CD shaped PCBs.

> Are you sure it prints on copper and the ink is etch-resist?

>There are a few very cheap single color thermal wax CD printers, just
>over $100 USD.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Which ones?
>
> Ballendo
>
>
> In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...> wrote:
> >There are a few very cheap single color thermal wax CD printers, just
> >over $100 USD.

> I think I was thinking that one of the cheap ones (Office Depot has
> one) would be good to try it on a PCB, because they are all about

>
> Hmm... best I can find in wax thermal CD printer is 305dpi and that

> over $2,000 USD. Never mind.
>
> Steve
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@y...>

> > Steve,
> >
> > Which ones?
> >
> > Ballendo
> >
> >
> > In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@y...>

> > >There are a few very cheap single color thermal wax CD printers,

> > >over $100 USD.

> I saw one recently, that was a xerox? or HP 4040--I think
>
> It used big "bricks" of wax...
>
> Ballendo