Digital BW, The Print

Peter,

Drawers are often made of plastic or wood substitutes that contain 
formaldehyde and other oxidising agents in the adhesives used to stick them 
together. So, as with ozone, you could get oxidation of the inks.

How do museums store their prints after making and mounting them on archival 
materials? Do they have special archival drawer-units to store them in? 
Metal, for instance? I don't know. Would any archivists amongst us like to 
comment?

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Nelson" <pnweb@...>

I have one set of color prints on EEM here at work, on my cube wall,
under 24/7 fluorescent lights and 2 years after they were made they
look fine.  I have another set at home made from the paper OUT OF THE
SAME CARTON, that have been sitting in a drawer, which have taken on
a greenish cast.   God only knows why.

Peter,

Ignore my last post - you have metal drawers. It must be all those 
photographic silver prints still giving off the nasty chemicals that were 
used in their production!!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Nelson" <pnweb@...>

It was a metal drawer in an all metal office desk.  In that same
drawer are hundreds of photographic prints, some dating to the
1960's, which are all perfectly fine.

---I used to work for the Center For Creative Photogaphy in Tucson and for a short while 
at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. 

In Tucson that museum was set up by John Schaffer and Ansel Adams to store the finest 
American art photography of the late 19th and 20th centuries for posterity.

What we did with everything ( including Eugene Smiths black cardborad drymounted, 
bleached silver prints ) was overmatt the prints with 4 ply rag board and rag mount. Then 
the prints were stored in a humidity and temperature controlled room in sealed boxes 
made by Spik and Gobork. Cold storage is best because it stops everything but is also 
impractical for showing work.

john

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> What we did with everything ( including Eugene Smiths black 
cardborad drymounted, 
> bleached silver prints ) was overmatt the prints with 4 ply rag 
board and rag mount. Then 
> the prints were stored in a humidity and temperature controlled 
room in sealed boxes 
> made by Spik and Gobork.

Sure.  But you're talking about valuable prints with great historical 
significance.

The darkroom BW prints I made in the 1960's and 1970's have never 
been  babied.  They're sat around in cardboard boxes and envelopes 
and in  boxes and attics and ridden around in the trunk of my car and 
all of  them are fine.   Likewise I have lots of Kodak and drugstore 
prints  from the 1970's and 1980's that have been treated with 
similar nonchalance and don't seem any worse for wear.   

So my point is that photographic prints are usually very durable.   I 
have NEVER opend an envelope of 6 month or 1 or 2 year old 
photographic prints, color or black and white, Kodak, or pro lab or 
my darkroom, and discovered that they had suddenly gone technicolor 
on me.

But that sort of thing happens with disturbing frequency to inkjet 
prints, and numerous accounts on the web will tell you.     

And for us BW photographers it's an even bigger deal.   People who 
use RIPs are counting on the software to VERY CAREFULLY balance 6 or 
7 ink colors into neutral balance.   If, after a year or two, even 
ONE of those colors shifts or fades even slightly the whole balancing 
act is thrown off, whereas with a color print tiny effects like that 
would be swamped by the other colors.    That's a good argument for 
BO or quad/hex -tone carbon inks over RIPs.

You have good points there. I thought you were refering to carbon pigments shifting and 
staining. Monochrome color prints are vulnerable, and I would always spray them with 
Premier Art, Lascaux, or Lyson Printguard. 

One of the things that Wilhelm found out the hard way was that inkjet prints, of all kinds, 
are vulnerable to contaminants in the air which are easily absorbed into the pores of the 
media. They act almost like a magnet for pollution. The swellable polimer inkjet media was 
designed to counteract that but it was designed for dye prints not pigment prints like we 
use. As you pointed out, gelatin silver is a much harder and more impervious surface for 
pollution and toxants to penetrate.  My belief from the research of Wilhelm and others is 
that if you are going to work with rag media with the photo inkjet process you need to 
either keep the prints in a portfolio away from junk in the atmosphere, keep them behind 
plexi or glass, or do as I usually do, spray them with one of the non-yellowing sealant 
sprays. But don't tell me that  traditional color dye coupler color photographs held up well 
in normal conditions because I can show you a closet full of yellowed and faded and 
stained artwork on those papers that were only done 20 years ago, thanks to big Kokak's 
lack of interest in preservation.

I still contend however that if you had put any art media that was produced on a soft 100% 
rag paper in a drawer it could have just as easily yellowed. It's not the problem with inkjet 
photography, it is a fact of using delicate papers that we all like so well. They are just 
different, and shouldn't be used by the masses if they are not cared for. Give the general 
public sprayed RC prints and put them in sleeves.

john

On Oct 26, 2004, at 2:35 PM, john dean wrote:

> inkjet prints, of all kinds,
>  are vulnerable to contaminants in the air which are easily absorbed 
> into the pores of the
>  media.

To get back to my original post on this topic, I put a sheet of 
photorag on top of some newspaper overnight and by the next morning the 
print had turned a bright greenish yellow.. I also reported that the 
yellow seemed to be going away once I got the print away from the 
newspaper.  Well, it's been 5 days or so, and there's still quite a bit 
of yellow there, so the effect may be permanent.  Bottom line.. keep 
your photorag prints away from newspapers, and according to reports 
that I've seen in the archives, there's certain types of sealing tape 
and plastics that may cause a similar effect.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-Well that is very interesting indeed, that Photo Rag could absorb acid in such a quick and 
devistating way. This means it is even more absorbant than we even dreamed of. These 
rag papers are like sponges. Newspaper is one of the most acid materials out there. They 
are made of the cheapest wood pulp that not only has radical ph but also probably 
contains other chemicals used in the manufacturing of the newsprint itself. Would love to 
hear a chemist's opinions.....

Hey Guys.. I Just did the same test as when this thread started..I would
like to know what newspaper it was..because my test on the Phila Inquire..
did not yellow at all..
I did this on Sunday right after the post..I also did it with the Innova
Smooth Cotton and neither one has turned yellow yet..I will keep every
posted on my results..

Cheers
Jim Doyle

J.Doyle Enterprises L.L.C.
114 Old Orchard Rd.
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: john dean [mailto:deanwork2003@...]
  Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:09 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Toxic yellow photorag!



  -Well that is very interesting indeed, that Photo Rag could absorb acid in
such a quick and
  devistating way. This means it is even more absorbant than we even dreamed
of. These
  rag papers are like sponges. Newspaper is one of the most acid materials
out there. They
  are made of the cheapest wood pulp that not only has radical ph but also
probably
  contains other chemicals used in the manufacturing of the newsprint
itself. Would love to
  hear a chemist's opinions.....





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hello all.....well I am still looking for a glossy paper success 
story......I have now lowered my standards again! I dont care if a 
print only lasts one month. I am looking for a way to get a BW print on 
glossy paper, with a standard photographic look. Bronzing is not 
tolerable. People look at a print that has bronzing and they wait about 
one second and say...."did you do this on your printer or 
something?..... What i need is to be able able to put a print in 
someone's hand and have them think that it was "developed", and 
therefore a "real photo"......(that is booking agent thinking by the 
way)......not to be confused with a nice art print that will be under 
glass, which the UT2 inks and art papers do so well. I have both a 
epson 1280, and an epson 1200. The 1280 ihas the UT2 inks. If you have 
been reading my posts, you'll remember that  I am marginally satisfied 
with spraying etc....but the pigments really dont cut it for gloss when 
it comes right down to it. Most everybody agrees I think. SO ...I also 
have the 1200 with lyson quad black dye inks. These are a pain with all 
gloss papers too it seems. Lyson claims that they work with gloss, but 
no matter waht, the dark areas ALWAYS turn blue when they dry. That is 
on all gloss papers ecept epson cheap photopaper, which shows bronzing 
real bad with the lysons. None of the other papers show bronzing, just 
the blue color at 85% dark. I have tried profiles, curves, CMYK curves, 
yadda yadda yadda......Black only is out of the question on the 1200, 
because the dot pattern is really horrible......so I gave up on these 
inks once before, and got the 1280, but still have this albatross of 
gloss incompetence around my neck. ...does the R800 do gloss BW? It 
seems that the 800 should be good for BO...BUT.....does it print on 
gloss paper? Really really really?
I made a print on an HP that is supposed to do great BW, but it looked 
wierd to me. Not bad but weird.  Geez.....

I'd like to put in some more information.  I've done my own newspaper test here in 
Chicago on the same HPR as Jim Doyle. The Chicago Trib is as polluted as it gets most 
likely . . . :-).  No yellowing so far, but we'll see.  However, I have a client who prints 
entirely on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag (with Piezography MB WN inks) who has in the past 
gotten yellow prints. This is from pollutants. They were exposed to the air and that's what 
happened. We have to realize that these prints are not photographs persay.  They're 
physically more like charcoal drawings on newsprint or watercolors on watercolor paper.  
We treat those pieces of work differently than tough silver prints. I'm working on starting a 
clause in my invoices and statements that talks about print dings, print fading, etc.  All 
this stuff is way different than "traditional" photography. There's always trade-offs.

I had another client come in recently who had run Piezography on Sommerset and 
wrapped all the prints up in brown (woodpulp) paper and then taped that roll shut with 
masking tape.  Three weeks later the black had gone totally red, the inks had reticulated 
apart from eachother (god knows how that happened) and where the masking tape was, 
there were deep blue patches.  This blue and red stuff was an Iron oxidation of some sort; 
how Iron came into play, I don't know.  The second edition (the one the gallery has) is fine.  
They were printed at the same time but were kept behind glass and away from chemicals.

All of my current clients know this about digital prints. It's a major consideration when 
getting into this whole shibang.  It's also something that's pushing me away from being in 
Chicago and driving me back home to Vermont. There's way less pollution out there, you 
know?


ps: way back when in the beginning days of Hahnemuhle Digital Coatings, some of their 
papers came yellow out of the box. I found one such box like that.  It was rather alarming. 
That's why they changed their box from brown wood-pulb paper to the white acid free 
stuff no dought . . . Just a conjecture there.

Walker Blackwell
Black Point Editions, ltd.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle" <jdoyle1713@c...> 
wrote:
> Hey Guys.. I Just did the same test as when this thread started..I would
> like to know what newspaper it was..because my test on the Phila Inquire..
> did not yellow at all..
> I did this on Sunday right after the post..I also did it with the Innova
> Smooth Cotton and neither one has turned yellow yet..I will keep every
> posted on my results..
> 
> Cheers
> Jim Doyle
> 
> J.Doyle Enterprises L.L.C.
> 114 Old Orchard Rd.
> Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
> 856-424-8660
> http://www.shadesofpaper.com
> 
> 
> 
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: john dean [mailto:deanwork2003@y...]
>   Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:09 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Toxic yellow photorag!
> 
> 
> 
>   -Well that is very interesting indeed, that Photo Rag could absorb acid in
> such a quick and
>   devistating way. This means it is even more absorbant than we even dreamed
> of. These
>   rag papers are like sponges. Newspaper is one of the most acid materials
> out there. They
>   are made of the cheapest wood pulp that not only has radical ph but also
> probably
>   contains other chemicals used in the manufacturing of the newsprint
> itself. Would love to
>   hear a chemist's opinions.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO 
YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF 
ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Douglas,
I'm printing on an Epson 7600/9600 doing gloss with ultrachrome 
inks. I have always loved the high gloss of a Ciba print and wanted 
to get there. I purchased a copy of ImagePrint rip (ouch!) for 
printing on Epson's premium gloss paper with the UltraChromes with 
photo black ink. The prints come out gorgeous, but still display 
some bronzing and gloss differential. Also you can really zero in on 
the tints to your B&W from neutral to selenium or platinum tints.


So here was my solution...
First I printed up some BIG ones, 24x36 and took them to a local 
digital lab that did laminating. I had them do a gloss laminate so I 
could see the results. WOW! They looked just like a Cibachrome! 
Really made the blacks pop also. They used a hot laminate. I have 
done some more research and decided that there was not a big 
advantage/disadvantage to hot over cold. So I went out and purchased 
a cold laminator from Coda Inc. for $1500 (34" wide). Now I'm doing 
cold laminates on my glossy prints (I can also mount with it), and 
they do take your breath away if your into glossy. It sounds like 
you are printing smaller than me, but there are some very reasonably 
priced small laminators out there. Also the prints are near bullet 
proof with the laminate on them...you can sit your cocktails on them 
at the end of a long printing session...8-)



> hello all.....well I am still looking for a glossy paper success 
> story......I have now lowered my standards again! I dont care if a 
> print only lasts one month. I am looking for a way to get a BW 
print on 
> glossy paper, with a standard photographic look. Bronzing is not 
> tolerable. People look at a print that has bronzing and they wait 
about 
> one second and say...."did you do this on your printer or 
> something?..... What i need is to be able able to put a print in 
> someone's hand and have them think that it was "developed", and 
> therefore a "real photo"......(that is booking agent thinking by 
the 
> way)......not to be confused with a nice art print that will be 
under 
> glass, which the UT2 inks and art papers do so well. I have both a 
> epson 1280, and an epson 1200. The 1280 ihas the UT2 inks. If you 
have 
> been reading my posts, you'll remember that  I am marginally 
satisfied 
> with spraying etc....but the pigments really dont cut it for gloss 
when 
> it comes right down to it. Most everybody agrees I think. SO ...I 
also 
> have the 1200 with lyson quad black dye inks. These are a pain 
with all 
> gloss papers too it seems. Lyson claims that they work with gloss, 
but 
> no matter waht, the dark areas ALWAYS turn blue when they dry. 
That is 
> on all gloss papers ecept epson cheap photopaper, which shows 
bronzing 
> real bad with the lysons. None of the other papers show bronzing, 
just 
> the blue color at 85% dark. I have tried profiles, curves, CMYK 
curves, 
> yadda yadda yadda......Black only is out of the question on the 
1200, 
> because the dot pattern is really horrible......so I gave up on 
these 
> inks once before, and got the 1280, but still have this albatross 
of 
> gloss incompetence around my neck. ...does the R800 do gloss BW? 
It 
> seems that the 800 should be good for BO...BUT.....does it print 
on 
> gloss paper? Really really really?
> I made a print on an HP that is supposed to do great BW, but it 
looked 
> wierd to me. Not bad but weird.  Geez.....

Did you try the Lyson Darkroom Gloss paper with the Lyson Quad Blacks?  
Best match I've seen so far to a silver print, but only in daylight or 
D65 lighting.  The Lyson black inks are highly metameric and the 
beautiful neutral prints you see in daylight appear red/purple under 
incandescent lighting.  There is no bronzing and a nice soft gloss - 
like an air dried glossy silver print.  I'm waiting to see if the new 
Daylight Darkroom inks improve the metamerism issue.

On Wednesday, October 27, 2004, at 12:21  AM, Douglas Meeuwsen wrote:

>
> hello all.....well I am still looking for a glossy paper success
> story......I have now lowered my standards again! I dont care if a
> print only lasts one month. I am looking for a way to get a BW print on
> glossy paper, with a standard photographic look. Bronzing is not
> tolerable. People look at a print that has bronzing and they wait about
> one second and say...."did you do this on your printer or
> something?..... What i need is to be able able to put a print in
> someone's hand and have them think that it was "developed", and
> therefore a "real photo"......(that is booking agent thinking by the
> way)......not to be confused with a nice art print that will be under
> glass, which the UT2 inks and art papers do so well. I have both a
> epson 1280, and an epson 1200. The 1280 ihas the UT2 inks. If you have
> been reading my posts, you'll remember that  I am marginally satisfied
> with spraying etc....but the pigments really dont cut it for gloss when
> it comes right down to it. Most everybody agrees I think. SO ...I also
> have the 1200 with lyson quad black dye inks. These are a pain with all
> gloss papers too it seems. Lyson claims that they work with gloss, but
> no matter waht, the dark areas ALWAYS turn blue when they dry. That is
> on all gloss papers ecept epson cheap photopaper, which shows bronzing
> real bad with the lysons. None of the other papers show bronzing, just
> the blue color at 85% dark. I have tried profiles, curves, CMYK curves,
> yadda yadda yadda......Black only is out of the question on the 1200,
> because the dot pattern is really horrible......so I gave up on these
> inks once before, and got the 1280, but still have this albatross of
> gloss incompetence around my neck. ...does the R800 do gloss BW? It
> seems that the 800 should be good for BO...BUT.....does it print on
> gloss paper? Really really really?
> I made a print on an HP that is supposed to do great BW, but it looked
> wierd to me. Not bad but weird.  Geez.....

Walter,

You are absolutely right, they did change their box design because of the staining from 
the wood pulp. And, if I remember correctly Fuji Crystal Archive type C material had the 
exact same issue, with the whites yellowing in the box before the paper was even opened.

When the Hahnemuhle inkjet rag papers were first unleased on the public they did it 
through Lumijet company. Lumijet stated that you should ALWAYS spray these prints as 
part of the complete process. They market their own spray, which is I belive just Lyson 
Printguard with their name on it. In the beginning I rarely  sprayed my prints from a dye 
based 1200 and they are all gone. But, the ones from that same 1200 that were sprayed 
still look the same after 5 or so years, and you can't tell they were sprayed. I am a big 
believer in sprays and am willing to sacrafice a small amount of bottom end if necessary to 
achieve stability. My clients have never ever complained about a loss of blacks in an image 
that was sprayed. 

The idea about writing a - take care of  your inkjet  prints - clause on the invoice is a good 
one. I'm seriously considering that. You know it would be sad to find out 5-10 years from 
now that a lot of your prints out there are deteriorated because of this lack of protection. I 
am also serioulsy considering spraying all of my prints with either Printguard or Lascaux 
for protection. I already spray a lot of them.  This Photo Rag scuffs so so easily. Just 
yesterday I reprinted a 24x30 for a good client because he scuffed it while removing it 
from his car before framing! When this happened with  a 44x60 last month, well that really 
cost me cash. This is serious stuff with a lot of the rag papers, especially the beautuful 
Hahnemuhle papers.

John


  Walter wrote:
ps: way back when in the beginning days of Hahnemuhle Digital Coatings, some of
their
papers came yellow out of the box. I found one such box like that. It was
rather alarming.
That's why they changed their box from brown wood-pulb paper to the white acid
free
stuff no doubt . . . Just a conjecture there.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> -Well that is very interesting indeed, that Photo Rag
> could absorb acid in such a quick and 
> devistating way. 

But we don't even know if it's "acid" (which begs the question of 
what acid it was and how the acid actually got from the newspaper to 
the prints).  An acid is a substance that produces excess H+ ions 
when dissolved in water.  The standard methods for measuring the 
acidity of paper (wet-end extract and cold water extract) depend on 
this.  If the newspaper and print are both dry then the actual 
transport mechanism of excess H+ ions from newspaper to print is a 
metter of pure speculation.

It's also pure speculation WHAT causes the discoloration.   At least 
with conventional photo prints, the chemistry is nonproprietary and 
it's well understood, so we KNOW what the factors are that can cause 
yellowing or color shifts.

With inkjet prints it could be ANYTHING.  Maybe your inkjet prints 
will be fine unless they just happen to be exposed to dog-breath 
while hanging near a Pothos plant.   I'll bet Wilhelm never checked 
for that!   "But, Peter", I hear people saying, "the inkjet prints on 
your cube wall, taped directly under a Pothos vine, without any glass 
or anything, look great after two years!   Doesn't that blow your 
whole theory?"    No, I say.  That's probably why the company doesn't 
allow dogs in the R&D facilities.

Seriously, it could be ANYTHING.   I live 3/4 mile from Rt 495 in 
Massachusetts.   How about NOx emissions?   I'm a painter, so how 
about turpenoid or mineral spirit fumes?   I clean my brushes with a 
powerful surfactants using either alkyl polyglycosides or ethylene 
glycol monobutyl ether or nonylphenol ethoxylates.  These irritate 
mucous membranes from several feet away - what will they do to inkjet 
prints?   We have a cleaning company come to clean our house every 
week - who knows what chemicals are in their cleaners?  

The list is endless and there is nobody on any of these photography 
and printing forums with enough chemistry background or a detailed 
enough understanding of the chemistry of the paper or inks to 
speculate intelligently about the problem.   We're all just a bunch 
ogf guys who don't actually know $#!+ about any of this, but thanks 
to what the Car Talk Guys call "male answer syndrome" we all feel 
like we have a right to BS about it.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Walker 
Blackwell" <lists@g...> wrote:
> We have to realize that these prints are not 
> photographs persay.  They're physically more like 
> charcoal drawings on newsprint or watercolors on 
> watercolor paper. 

As an artist I've been using Canson Mi Teintes pastel paper for 
years, hanging it all over my house, often without any glass in front 
and I've NEVER had any yellowing.   (BTW I had a show at a local 
gallery last May of inkjet prints on Canson Mi Teintes using the flat-
feed feature of my 2200.  That printer will print on damn near 
anything!)

> All of my current clients know this about digital prints.
> It's a major consideration when getting into this whole
> shibang.  It's also something that's pushing me away from
> being in Chicago and driving me back home to Vermont. 
> There's way less pollution out there, you know?

Wrongo!  Vermont is downwind of the ENTIRE COUNTRY and parts of 
Canada.     Vermont has, among other things, the worst acid rain 
problem in the US.  It also gets a lot of other junk.   My brother 
lives in the northern kingdom and could tell you horror stories.

Still, it really says something about how unreliable inkjet printing 
technology is if people are actually considering MOVING just to get 
more stable prints.

Peter,

What country? About the only thing Vermont is downwind of is Quebec! And, I hate to tell ya, buddy, but the jet stream doesn't flow that way!

I lived in central Vermont for 18 years...Vermont has no air pollution or water pollution. Yes, it does receive its fair share of acid rain, but no more than just about anywhere else in the US. Better get your facts straight before bashing my home state!

Oh, and by the way, it's called the North Kingdom.

Alan Huntley

P.S. My apologies to the rest of the group for this off-topic post.

> 
> From: "Peter Nelson" <pnweb@...>
> Date: 2004/10/27 Wed AM 10:21:55 EDT
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Toxic yellow photorag!
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Walker 
> Blackwell" <lists@g...> wrote:
> > We have to realize that these prints are not 
> > photographs persay.  They're physically more like 
> > charcoal drawings on newsprint or watercolors on 
> > watercolor paper. 
> 
>> Wrongo!  Vermont is downwind of the ENTIRE COUNTRY and parts of 
> Canada.     Vermont has, among other things, the worst acid rain 
> problem in the US.  It also gets a lot of other junk.   My brother 
> lives in the northern kingdom and could tell you horror stories.

On Oct 26, 2004, at 7:28 PM, Jim Doyle wrote:

> Hey Guys.. I Just did the same test as when this thread started..I 
> would
>  like to know what newspaper it was..because my test on the Phila 
> Inquire..
>  did not yellow at all..
>  I did this on Sunday right after the post..I also did it with the 
> Innova
>  Smooth Cotton and neither one has turned yellow yet..I will keep every
>  posted on my results..
>
>

I live in Los Angeles, and the yellowing I originally reported was from 
the LA Times.. interesting to hear that this doesn't happen with all 
newspapers.  The yellowing effect is really striking, a bright greenish 
yellow, and the coated surface of the paper wasn't even in contact with 
the newsprint, so the contamination is either happening through the 
base side of the paper or through the air.  If you're testing for this 
effect, you'll see it within a few hours if it's going to happen.  EEM 
is the only other paper I use, and it isn't effected.
The yellowed print has been sitting by itself for nearly a week now, 
and it's slowly, slowly losing the contamination.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Peter,

Do you cut down the sheets to size or are you using the smaller size 
paper for printing?

Thanks

Jules


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson" 
<pnweb@s...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Walker 
> Blackwell" <lists@g...> wrote:
> > We have to realize that these prints are not 
> > photographs persay.  They're physically more like 
> > charcoal drawings on newsprint or watercolors on 
> > watercolor paper. 
> 
> As an artist I've been using Canson Mi Teintes pastel paper for 
> years, hanging it all over my house, often without any glass in 
front 
> and I've NEVER had any yellowing.   (BTW I had a show at a local 
> gallery last May of inkjet prints on Canson Mi Teintes using the 
flat-
> feed feature of my 2200.  That printer will print on damn near 
> anything!)
> 
> > All of my current clients know this about digital prints.
> > It's a major consideration when getting into this whole
> > shibang.  It's also something that's pushing me away from
> > being in Chicago and driving me back home to Vermont. 
> > There's way less pollution out there, you know?
> 
> Wrongo!  Vermont is downwind of the ENTIRE COUNTRY and parts of 
> Canada.     Vermont has, among other things, the worst acid rain 
> problem in the US.  It also gets a lot of other junk.   My brother 
> lives in the northern kingdom and could tell you horror stories.
> 
> Still, it really says something about how unreliable inkjet 
printing 
> technology is if people are actually considering MOVING just to get 
> more stable prints.

wow....now there we may actually have a solution....I ony need to make 
8x10 glossies, so I am going to check on a laminator. Probably cheaper 
than a R800. Then I will use the ilford smooth gloss on the 1280/UT2 
machine, which makes a fabulous image except for the bronzing. Thanks 
for the Tip! Doug M
On Oct 27, 2004, at 5:16 AM, seacap8 wrote:

>
>
>  Douglas,
>  I'm printing on an Epson 7600/9600 doing gloss with ultrachrome
>  inks. I have always loved the high gloss of a Ciba print and wanted
>  to get there. I purchased a copy of ImagePrint rip (ouch!) for
>  printing on Epson's premium gloss paper with the UltraChromes with
>  photo black ink. The prints come out gorgeous, but still display
>  some bronzing and gloss differential. Also you can really zero in on
>  the tints to your B&W from neutral to selenium or platinum tints.
>
>
>  So here was my solution...
>  First I printed up some BIG ones, 24x36 and took them to a local
>  digital lab that did laminating. I had them do a gloss laminate so I
>  could see the results. WOW! They looked just like a Cibachrome!
>  Really made the blacks pop also. They used a hot laminate. I have
>  done some more research and decided that there was not a big
>  advantage/disadvantage to hot over cold. So I went out and purchased
>  a cold laminator from Coda Inc. for $1500 (34" wide). Now I'm doing
>  cold laminates on my glossy prints (I can also mount with it), and
>  they do take your breath away if your into glossy. It sounds like
>  you are printing smaller than me, but there are some very reasonably
>  priced small laminators out there. Also the prints are near bullet
>  proof with the laminate on them...you can sit your cocktails on them
>  at the end of a long printing session...8-)
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nelson"
<pnweb@s...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > -Well that is very interesting indeed, that Photo Rag
> > could absorb acid in such a quick and 
> > devistating way. 
> 
> But we don't even know if it's "acid"...
snip...
> It's also pure speculation WHAT causes the discoloration....

actually it's not. If you do some searches on this and other lists
you'll find a lot of it has been pretty nailed down.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
<Alan.Huntley@c...> wrote:
> Peter,
> 
> What country? About the only thing Vermont is downwind of is 
Quebec! And, I hate to tell ya, buddy, but the jet stream doesn't 
flow that way!
> 
> I lived in central Vermont for 18 years...Vermont has no air 
pollution or water pollution. Yes, it does receive its fair share of 
acid rain, but no more than just about anywhere else in the US. 
Better get your facts straight before bashing my home state!

You should get YOUR facts straight.  Weather systems in the US move 
from southwest to northeast.    Vermont receives substantial air 
pollution from New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, etc.  In fact 
on January 8 2002 Attorney General Sorrel of Vermont sued the EPA for 
threatening to weaken rules that would have reduced efforts to curb 
SO2 and NOx pollution from those states.

Also, in 1997 Vermont was one of 8 states, all in the northeast, 
which petitioned the EPA to create stricter rules against low 
altitude transport of ozone.  Smog, mostly from NY is a big problem 
in parts of VT, and unlike bbenzene pollution, which is high only in 
a few urban pockets in Vt, ozone is high everywhere, indicating an 
out-of-state origin. 

Furthermore wet sulfate deposition in southern Vermont is 40 kg/ha, 
which is twice the maximum level considered sustainable by the EPA's 
already relaxed standards.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999" 
<lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:
> 
> Hey Peter,
> 
> Do you cut down the sheets to size or are you using the smaller 
size 
> paper for printing?

I cut them.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:

> > But we don't even know if it's "acid"...
> snip...
> > It's also pure speculation WHAT causes the discoloration....
> 
> actually it's not. If you do some searches on this and other lists
> you'll find a lot of it has been pretty nailed down.
> Tyler

I've done lots of searches and what I've seen is MOSTLY the same kind 
of speculation we've seen in this thread.  Someone observes that a 
print left near newspaper changes color; someone else notes that 
newsprint is not low acid, and therefore concludes that the "acid" in 
the newsprint changed the color of the inkjet print.    The actual 
chemical process, including the ion-transport mechanism and what 
compounds are created that have the colors they do - green, orange, 
or whatever, are usually left as a proof for the student.

The fact is that reports of mysterious and often rapid changes in 
color of inkjet prints, or often just the paper itself, are LEGION.  
I see these reports in every forum where inkjet printing is 
discussed.  And 99% of the time there's no obvious cause.  And so, 
like anything else when there's no obvious cause, people clutch at 
straws such as mysterious emanations from wood, newspapers, sealing 
tape, etc.   The fact that the people who do this don't remember 
enough high-school chemistry to descibe how a buffer works, 
notwithstanding.  njeither the fact that plenty of inkjet prints ARE 
left in wooden boxes and drawers, or cardboard envelopes with no 
problems

I live in the Boston area and right now we have perfectly 
intelligent, educated people - doctors, engineers, scientists - 
trying to account for the Red Sox' recent performance by invoking 
full moons, eclipses, dredged-up pianos, blood-sacrifices by 
teenagers living in Babe Ruth's old house, and other signs, portents, 
and rites.   But let's not confuse superstition with understanding.

I would take a good look at the R800.  Has built in gloss and the widest
colour gamut to date in an inkjet.  Unfortunately I am not aware of any B&W
RIPs for it yet but with the new A3+ version coming I have asked Roy whether
he has given thought to how this printer might run with QTR.  I am sure
there will be broader support once the A3+ version arrives.

> From: Douglas Meeuwsen <lipshurt@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:57:52 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: glossy paper goose chase....maybe R800?
> 
> 
> wow....now there we may actually have a solution....I ony need to make
> 8x10 glossies, so I am going to check on a laminator. Probably cheaper
> than a R800. Then I will use the ilford smooth gloss on the 1280/UT2
> machine, which makes a fabulous image except for the bronzing. Thanks
> for the Tip! Doug M
> On Oct 27, 2004, at 5:16 AM, seacap8 wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>>  Douglas,
>>  I'm printing on an Epson 7600/9600 doing gloss with ultrachrome
>>  inks. I have always loved the high gloss of a Ciba print and wanted
>>  to get there. I purchased a copy of ImagePrint rip (ouch!) for
>>  printing on Epson's premium gloss paper with the UltraChromes with
>>  photo black ink. The prints come out gorgeous, but still display
>>  some bronzing and gloss differential. Also you can really zero in on
>>  the tints to your B&W from neutral to selenium or platinum tints.
>> 
>> 
>>  So here was my solution...
>>  First I printed up some BIG ones, 24x36 and took them to a local
>>  digital lab that did laminating. I had them do a gloss laminate so I
>>  could see the results. WOW! They looked just like a Cibachrome!
>>  Really made the blacks pop also. They used a hot laminate. I have
>>  done some more research and decided that there was not a big
>>  advantage/disadvantage to hot over cold. So I went out and purchased
>>  a cold laminator from Coda Inc. for $1500 (34" wide). Now I'm doing
>>  cold laminates on my glossy prints (I can also mount with it), and
>>  they do take your breath away if your into glossy. It sounds like
>>  you are printing smaller than me, but there are some very reasonably
>>  priced small laminators out there. Also the prints are near bullet
>>  proof with the laminate on them...you can sit your cocktails on them
>>  at the end of a long printing session...8-)
>> 
>

Peter,

In my brief experience, 99% of the mysterious problems with inkjet prints 
are due to people using 3rd-party inks and papers. Printer manufacturers go 
to a lot of trouble to get matching papers and inks that work with their 
printers most of the time. Then along comes Joe Bloggs who thinks he knows 
better and can save a dollar/euro/pound or two by using WonderGlo ink and 
Cheapo paper.

The Wilhelm institute papers show how important it is to get the right match 
of ink and paper if you want longevity.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Nelson" <pnweb@...>

The fact is that reports of mysterious and often rapid changes in
color of inkjet prints, or often just the paper itself, are LEGION.
I see these reports in every forum where inkjet printing is
discussed.  And 99% of the time there's no obvious cause.

Just curious- any of you other smokers (I know you're out there!)
noticed yellowing prints?  I left a scrap print made on EEM laying on
top of my scanner and noticed that after a day or so it had become
noticebly yellow. In fact all the scrap prints I have laying around
are discolored, none of which have never come into contact with
newsprint (hell, i don't even get the paper, just find the news too
depressing these days). I smoke alot when I work, so obviously I
theorize the coating absorbed the residue from the cigarette smoke. 
Anyone else?

And I already know that I will die a painful death of lung cancer so
no lectures please;)
john

Peter,

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest, but...

> You should get YOUR facts straight.  Weather systems in the US move 
> from southwest to northeast.    Vermont receives substantial air 
> pollution from New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, etc.  In fact 
> on January 8 2002 Attorney General Sorrel of Vermont sued the EPA for 
> threatening to weaken rules that would have reduced efforts to curb 
> SO2 and NOx pollution from those states.

NO! The jet stream basically moves from the Pacific northwest across the northern US into the northeast. Yes, it can dip down, on occasion, but I don't believe it ever gets as far down as Texas. In the springtime, VT can get a good Nor'easter which, of course, pretty much follows the eastern seaboard, generally, picking up quite a bit of moisture on its way; ergo, our heavy snowfalls in late March and April. Vt probably does receive air pollution from a few of the states mentioned, and I won't dispute your SO2, etc, facts, but VT is not known for air pollution.
 
> Also, in 1997 Vermont was one of 8 states, all in the northeast, 
> which petitioned the EPA to create stricter rules against low 
> altitude transport of ozone.  Smog, mostly from NY is a big problem 
> in parts of VT, and unlike bbenzene pollution, which is high only in 
> a few urban pockets in Vt, ozone is high everywhere, indicating an 
> out-of-state origin.

Again, not. VT has no smog. Perhaps it might be measurable in the air, but certainly not seen by the naked eye. If you're saying VT has air pollution because any amount of emitted gas can be measured, then, I agree. Where in the US would this not be the case? VT really doesn't have urban pockets. The largest city is Burlington who's population swells to about 30,000 during the school term.

I will not post any further on this subject.

Alan Huntley

It's interesting because I have had a bulletin borad hanging in my studio for 4 years with 
all kinds of proofs that I've done through the years on it on all kinds of papers. The most 
common papers on it are Hahnemuhle rag media and Epson Enhanced Matt. I don't smoke 
and don't allow anyone else to smoke in the studio ( nor do I burn wood in a fireplace. 
None of these 5x7-8x10 size prints are yellowed or stained in any way. I just looked. They 
all look like new and have not been sprayed. 

It is very true that cigar and cigarette smoke will absorb into inkjet prints like moths to a 
flame. And, if smoke and ozone from airconditioners will discolor these prints, then a lot 
of other contaminants will as well. But some people just worry too much. If you don't like 
taking chances with new media go back to the toxic darkroom and die an early death. 
Have fun in there.

> 
> Just curious- any of you other smokers (I know you're out there!)
> noticed yellowing prints?  I left a scrap print made on EEM laying on
> top of my scanner and noticed that after a day or so it had become
> noticebly yellow. In fact all the scrap prints I have laying around
> are discolored, none of which have never come into contact with
> newsprint (hell, i don't even get the paper, just find the news too
> depressing these days). I smoke alot when I work, so obviously I
> theorize the coating absorbed the residue from the cigarette smoke. 
> Anyone else?
> 
> And I already know that I will die a painful death of lung cancer so
> no lectures please;)
> john

You make a valid point - that inks and papers have to be considered 
together. This is clearly true, and Wilhelm's results show this.

But to say that we have to use Epson's inks and papers just because we 
are using an Epson printer is, well, absurd. I don't use GM brand gas, 
oil, or tires on my GM truck either.

This is especially true since Epson eschews the B&W market. Many of us 
here find that Epson's inks make unacceptable B&W prints. Many of us 
find that Epson's (rebranded) papers are likewise unacceptable. And if 
you think I'm using Hahnemuhle Photo Rag because it's cheaper, you need 
to do some more research.

Over time, the various manufacturers will learn to make more robust 
products, or the market will backlash on them. Epson is a prime example 
- the backlash against the ghastly fading and orange shifting of the 
1270 dye inks a few years ago begat the pigment ink onslaught which 
eventually resulted in the UltraChromes, which aren't half bad, for 
color inks.

Without third party competition for the consumables market, we wouldn't 
be having this conversation. Without Media Street, MIS, Cone, Lyson, 
Hawk Mtn., Hahnemuhle, Futures, and many, many other companies, 
innovation would drop to a crawl, and users like me would have thrown 
their 1270s in the trash and returned to the darkroom.

Blaming the users is not the answer. Competing manufacturers (third 
party or OEM) making better products, bringing them to market, and 
competing for market share is.
--
Hogarth Hughes


Bob Frost wrote:

>Peter,
>
>In my brief experience, 99% of the mysterious problems with inkjet prints 
>are due to people using 3rd-party inks and papers. Printer manufacturers go 
>to a lot of trouble to get matching papers and inks that work with their 
>printers most of the time. Then along comes Joe Bloggs who thinks he knows 
>better and can save a dollar/euro/pound or two by using WonderGlo ink and 
>Cheapo paper.
>
>The Wilhelm institute papers show how important it is to get the right match 
>of ink and paper if you want longevity.
>
>Bob Frost.
>
>
>  
>

Hogarth,

Bob Is still in the dark ages.. ..Bob pay attention to the list ..You may
learn a thing or two..

Cheers
Jim

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Hogarth Hughes [mailto:hogarth@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 5:35 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Toxic yellow photorag!


  You make a valid point - that inks and papers have to be considered
  together. This is clearly true, and Wilhelm's results show this.

  But to say that we have to use Epson's inks and papers just because we
  are using an Epson printer is, well, absurd. I don't use GM brand gas,
  oil, or tires on my GM truck either.

  This is especially true since Epson eschews the B&W market. Many of us
  here find that Epson's inks make unacceptable B&W prints. Many of us
  find that Epson's (rebranded) papers are likewise unacceptable. And if
  you think I'm using Hahnemuhle Photo Rag because it's cheaper, you need
  to do some more research.

  Over time, the various manufacturers will learn to make more robust
  products, or the market will backlash on them. Epson is a prime example
  - the backlash against the ghastly fading and orange shifting of the
  1270 dye inks a few years ago begat the pigment ink onslaught which
  eventually resulted in the UltraChromes, which aren't half bad, for
  color inks.

  Without third party competition for the consumables market, we wouldn't
  be having this conversation. Without Media Street, MIS, Cone, Lyson,
  Hawk Mtn., Hahnemuhle, Futures, and many, many other companies,
  innovation would drop to a crawl, and users like me would have thrown
  their 1270s in the trash and returned to the darkroom.

  Blaming the users is not the answer. Competing manufacturers (third
  party or OEM) making better products, bringing them to market, and
  competing for market share is.
  --
  Hogarth Hughes


  Bob Frost wrote:

  >Peter,
  >
  >In my brief experience, 99% of the mysterious problems with inkjet prints
  >are due to people using 3rd-party inks and papers. Printer manufacturers
go
  >to a lot of trouble to get matching papers and inks that work with their
  >printers most of the time. Then along comes Joe Bloggs who thinks he
knows
  >better and can save a dollar/euro/pound or two by using WonderGlo ink and
  >Cheapo paper.
  >
  >The Wilhelm institute papers show how important it is to get the right
match
  >of ink and paper if you want longevity.
  >
  >Bob Frost.
  >
  >
  >
  >


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Amen,

Epson wants to replace Kokak as the domanant force in photography and with that goes a 
lot of responsibility. They were pushed along by all these companies you mentioned and 
contiune to be, thank God. As far as media goes, I think they want to do the right thing 
after some serious stumbles along the way. Because selling media and ink is what they are 
all about.

I am wondering what people out here think of the Ultrasmooth rag? I personally, as a one 
who had settled on several Hahnemuhle papers, find this media quite nice. What I really 
like about it is its durability and lack of obs. It appers that Premier Fine Art rag is the same 
paper. I believe Paul Roark uses it with his UT inks a lot.  Does anyone know yet who is 
making these papers? It seems to be a big secret and Epson and their distributors won't 
say anything. But, those who have profiled the two say they respond to color profiles 
almost exactly.  

John


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Without third party competition for the consumables market, we wouldn't 
> be having this conversation. Without Media Street, MIS, Cone, Lyson, 
> Hawk Mtn., Hahnemuhle, Futures, and many, many other companies, 
> innovation would drop to a crawl, and users like me would have thrown 
> their 1270s in the trash and returned to the darkroom.
> 
> Blaming the users is not the answer. Competing manufacturers (third 
> party or OEM) making better products, bringing them to market, and 
> competing for market share is.
>

Well, I would propose that the mysterious appearance if Bight Yellow staining 
or some other alleged paper toxin exposure that's a mystery,could very well 
be traced back to the paper purchase point. Some resellers buy Palettes of 
large Iris sized sheets and cut them down to 17x22 11x17 etc.  Awhile back These 
Iris sized Boxes
35x46.75 (Hahnemule) where packaged with a  contaminate from the tape. The 
adhesive exposed the top couple sheets to reveal bright yellow staining after 
the print was made and exposed to air, might be a week later that this would 
show up.
Turns out those top sheets that where pre exposed to contaminates then 
shipped  and appeared in any size if they where cut down by your dealer. Being that 
only a couple sheets per box where contaminated it seemed random and 
mysterious. Well, if you have seen or posess one of these bright yellow stained 
hahnemule papers I bet I can tell you where you got it! 
Could be that the newspaper mentioned in this thread had nothing to do with 
the paper turning yellow, it might be a coincidence.
Steven Meyers


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sanders,

Plastics usually/often give off chemicals. Ever noticed how the inside of 
the windscreen on a new car fogs up? Plasticisers etc emitted from the new 
plastics in the car. As the car get older, the plastic 'dries out' and the 
fogging get less.

Does the plastic strap turn Epson paper yellow, or just some 3rd-party 
papers such as you mention? ;)

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <sandersm@...>



Not so fast.   I've been mute during this disucssion, but I will note (and I
wonder if others have had this experience) that the plastic strap that Epson
(EPSON!) ships with the 7600/9600 to keep paper rolls from unfurling is 
itself
reactive, and will turn the paper underneath it yellow -- not just the layer
in direct contact with it, but a number of layers underneath it as well. 
It
ruined a roll of Hawk Mountain Merlin to my dismay.   Amazing.

Jim,

I have been paying attention to this list for nearly three years (I know - 
you'll say I'm a very slow learner!).

I've even even bought MIS quad black inks and used them in a 1270, but I got 
fed up with the clogging of the printhead, so quickly gave that up.

I now use my 2100 (2200USA) with Epson inks and papers and ImagePrint 5.6. 
That gives quite nice B&W results on matte papers - no clogging, 100yr print 
life - just a pity about the results on glossy paper.

I'm now trying out the R800 with its HighGloss Ultrachromes and Gloss 
Optimizer. That seems to do quite nice B&W out-of-the-box. But it is only 
A4.

As for me being in the dark ages, surely it's the devoted B&W fans who are 
still in the dark ages when B&W was the only way to produce images of the 
world around us. But they invented color photography quite a long while ago, 
and now we can get real images of the world on paper, that match what we 
see. I'd hate to be one of those animals whose eyes only detect B&W; but I 
sometimes get the feeling that some on this list would prefer not to have 
color vision!

Now look what you've made me say. ;)

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Doyle" <jdoyle1713@...>



Bob Is still in the dark ages.. ..Bob pay attention to the list ..You may
learn a thing or two..

Bob

I was funny If Your on this list than you should know how expensive Inks and
papers and 3rd party material is .. Epson is the least expensive way to go..

Cheers
Jim

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Bob Frost [mailto:bob@...]
  Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:17 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Toxic yellow photorag!


  Jim,

  I have been paying attention to this list for nearly three years (I know -
  you'll say I'm a very slow learner!).

  I've even even bought MIS quad black inks and used them in a 1270, but I
got
  fed up with the clogging of the printhead, so quickly gave that up.

  I now use my 2100 (2200USA) with Epson inks and papers and ImagePrint 5.6.
  That gives quite nice B&W results on matte papers - no clogging, 100yr
print
  life - just a pity about the results on glossy paper.

  I'm now trying out the R800 with its HighGloss Ultrachromes and Gloss
  Optimizer. That seems to do quite nice B&W out-of-the-box. But it is only
  A4.

  As for me being in the dark ages, surely it's the devoted B&W fans who are
  still in the dark ages when B&W was the only way to produce images of the
  world around us. But they invented color photography quite a long while
ago,
  and now we can get real images of the world on paper, that match what we
  see. I'd hate to be one of those animals whose eyes only detect B&W; but I
  sometimes get the feeling that some on this list would prefer not to have
  color vision!

  Now look what you've made me say. ;)

  Bob Frost.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Jim Doyle" <jdoyle1713@...>



  Bob Is still in the dark ages.. ..Bob pay attention to the list ..You may
  learn a thing or two..




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I hate to break the news to ya Bob, but this is a site devoted to - DIGITAL BLACK AND 
WHITE THE PRINT. And as far as my work goes, I consider black and white an amazing 
vehicle to express what you fell about what you see. Color photography does not make the 
work more real, just more illusionary.

John

> 
> As for me being in the dark ages, surely it's the devoted B&W fans who are 
> still in the dark ages when B&W was the only way to produce images of the 
> world around us. But they invented color photography quite a long while ago, 
> and now we can get real images of the world on paper, that match what we 
> see. I'd hate to be one of those animals whose eyes only detect B&W; but I 
> sometimes get the feeling that some on this list would prefer not to have 
> color vision!
> 
> Now look what you've made me say. ;)
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jim Doyle" <jdoyle1713@c...>
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Is still in the dark ages.. ..Bob pay attention to the list ..You may
> learn a thing or two..

I'm intrigued by your reference to lamination.  Could you give a few 
more details, like exactly what the process involves, and any pros or 
cons not mentioned in your message?  Thanks a lot.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "seacap8" 
<photographer@g...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Douglas,
> I'm printing on an Epson 7600/9600 doing gloss with ultrachrome 
> inks. I have always loved the high gloss of a Ciba print and wanted 
> to get there. I purchased a copy of ImagePrint rip (ouch!) for 
> printing on Epson's premium gloss paper with the UltraChromes with 
> photo black ink. The prints come out gorgeous, but still display 
> some bronzing and gloss differential. Also you can really zero in 
on 
> the tints to your B&W from neutral to selenium or platinum tints.
> 
> 
> So here was my solution...
> First I printed up some BIG ones, 24x36 and took them to a local 
> digital lab that did laminating. I had them do a gloss laminate so 
I 
> could see the results. WOW! They looked just like a Cibachrome! 
> Really made the blacks pop also. They used a hot laminate. I have 
> done some more research and decided that there was not a big 
> advantage/disadvantage to hot over cold. So I went out and 
purchased 
> a cold laminator from Coda Inc. for $1500 (34" wide). Now I'm doing 
> cold laminates on my glossy prints (I can also mount with it), and 
> they do take your breath away if your into glossy. It sounds like 
> you are printing smaller than me, but there are some very 
reasonably 
> priced small laminators out there. Also the prints are near bullet 
> proof with the laminate on them...you can sit your cocktails on 
them 
> at the end of a long printing session...8-)
> 
> 
> 
> > hello all.....well I am still looking for a glossy paper success 
> > story......I have now lowered my standards again! I dont care if 
a 
> > print only lasts one month. I am looking for a way to get a BW 
> print on 
> > glossy paper, with a standard photographic look. Bronzing is not 
> > tolerable. People look at a print that has bronzing and they wait 
> about 
> > one second and say...."did you do this on your printer or 
> > something?..... What i need is to be able able to put a print in 
> > someone's hand and have them think that it was "developed", and 
> > therefore a "real photo"......(that is booking agent thinking by 
> the 
> > way)......not to be confused with a nice art print that will be 
> under 
> > glass, which the UT2 inks and art papers do so well. I have both 
a 
> > epson 1280, and an epson 1200. The 1280 ihas the UT2 inks. If you 
> have 
> > been reading my posts, you'll remember that  I am marginally 
> satisfied 
> > with spraying etc....but the pigments really dont cut it for 
gloss 
> when 
> > it comes right down to it. Most everybody agrees I think. SO ...I 
> also 
> > have the 1200 with lyson quad black dye inks. These are a pain 
> with all 
> > gloss papers too it seems. Lyson claims that they work with 
gloss, 

> but 
> > no matter waht, the dark areas ALWAYS turn blue when they dry. 
> That is 
> > on all gloss papers ecept epson cheap photopaper, which shows 
> bronzing 
> > real bad with the lysons. None of the other papers show bronzing, 
> just 
> > the blue color at 85% dark. I have tried profiles, curves, CMYK 
> curves, 
> > yadda yadda yadda......Black only is out of the question on the 
> 1200, 
> > because the dot pattern is really horrible......so I gave up on 
> these 
> > inks once before, and got the 1280, but still have this albatross 
> of 
> > gloss incompetence around my neck. ...does the R800 do gloss BW? 
> It 
> > seems that the 800 should be good for BO...BUT.....does it print 
> on 
> > gloss paper? Really really really?
> > I made a print on an HP that is supposed to do great BW, but it 
> looked 
> > wierd to me. Not bad but weird.  Geez.....

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:

> If you don't like taking chances with new media 
> go back to the toxic darkroom and die an early death. 
> Have fun in there.

Or better yet, do like I do and hire someone else to take all the 
risks in the darkroom.   There are lots of labs that will 
photographically print digital files.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Doyle" 
<jdoyle1713@c...> wrote:
> Hogarth,
> 
> Bob Is still in the dark ages.. ..Bob pay attention to the 
list ..You may
> learn a thing or two..

I've been paying attention to this list and to lots of other 
photography or printing-related lists I'm on, and I see complaints 
about mysterious color shifts and fades from users of ALL different 
brands.   Lots of times it's the PAPER itself that shifts color, so 
it can't just be a matter of using the wrong ink for a particular 
paper.

I don't think that the third-party makers are either the cause or the 
solution to this problem.   

The correct solution will come about when we understand the 
underlying chemistry of these products.  One problem with inkjet 
technology, in general, is that it encourages a "black box" mentality 
among users.   The technology is so complex and proprietary, and 
people today are so impatient and have so short an attention span, 
and schools today do such a poor job teaching science, that very few 
people who aren't actually in the business of making inks and papers 
actually understand inks and papers at a technical level.  That's why 
even on a forum like this that's DEDICATED to the topic we can't do 
any more than SPECULATE about the problem.

When I first started in photography about mumble-mumble years ago it 
was common for advanced AMATEURS to make their own developers and 
other darkroom chemicals.   Advanced photography magazines routinely 
had articles and discussions on the topic.  Some of the British 
photography magazines looked like chemistry textbooks!

Dear BW’s,

 

Sorry for the late reaction, but at the moment I have both an Epson R800 and
a HP 8450 at home. I tested both with a black and white picture (in grey
scale printer driver setting, not in BO, I don’t expect anything from that)
and glossy photopaper (Epson and HP). To my surprise the results look almost
identical in tone (colour), sharpness and contras (slightly higher in HP). 

 

The only difference is, that the R800 print has a very nice gloss over it,
so it really looks like a print made on an Ilford silverhalide paper. Both
prints look quite neutral in daylight and slightly brownish (but nice) in
tungsten light. Under glass the differences will probably be even smaller.

 

With Kodak Ultima paper there are clearly differences in colour: Epson turns
greenish and HP brownish, in either case it does not look and smell very
well!  Self made quad tones don’t reproduce predictable on either printer or
paper, although I do have a well calibrated CRT-monitor. I guess you need a
very precise printer profile to make that work out better.

 

 

Best greetings,

 

Dré

 


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