Digital BW, The Print

I've got a trusty old 9600 running selenium K7, and I do 99% of my b/w work on it.  When size, media, or tone call for it, I switch over the the 11880.  As I understand it, QTR is not an option for the machine, so I have been using ABW.  I have my papers profiled, and am reasonably happy with the results, in terms of a nice looking print anyway.  Where this workflow struggles is when someone comes in and wants me to match an existing print or tone.  Sometimes, messing around with the settings in ABW will eventually get me close enough to make do, but at the expense of a lot of paper and time (unless there is something I'm missing).  I know there are other people out there with this same problem, so I thought I'd see what their solution has been.  I'm running Studioprint and Monaco, so with the money I have sunk into that software, purchasing another $1000+ program isn't an option right now-- plus I can't imagine those two pieces of software not being able to accomplish what I want.  With older printers I could have told Studioprint to treat it as monochrome and just used the 3 blacks, but from what I heard, Epson essentially forced Ergosoft to lock that option out (besides that would only provide a solution for warm prints anyway).

So yeah, I'm just kinda curious to see what other 11880 wranglers are up to...

Thanks for any input!

stopping short of more complicated setups, with all your good toys there I'd make carefully linearized and limited CMYK StudioPrint environments and full GCR CMYK Monaco profiles. Put your tints in the files in RGB, import and print from these StudioPrint/Monaco environments.
Never perfect, but has advantages over ABW.
Part of this is managing expectations, we were never in a position before digital to absolutely nail a preconceived hue, we had to accept something available from various product combinations, and it's still difficult in sensitive near neutrals with today's tools..
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:

>
> I've got a trusty old 9600 running selenium K7, and I do 99% of my b/w work on it.  When size, media, or tone call for it, I switch over the the 11880.  As I understand it, QTR is not an option for the machine, so I have been using ABW.  I have my papers profiled, and am reasonably happy with the results, in terms of a nice looking print anyway.  Where this workflow struggles is when someone comes in and wants me to match an existing print or tone.  Sometimes, messing around with the settings in ABW will eventually get me close enough to make do, but at the expense of a lot of paper and time (unless there is something I'm missing).  I know there are other people out there with this same problem, so I thought I'd see what their solution has been.  I'm running Studioprint and Monaco, so with the money I have sunk into that software, purchasing another $1000+ program isn't an option right now-- plus I can't imagine those two pieces of software not being able to accomplish what I want.  With older printers I could have told Studioprint to treat it as monochrome and just used the 3 blacks, but from what I heard, Epson essentially forced Ergosoft to lock that option out (besides that would only provide a solution for warm prints anyway).
> 
> So yeah, I'm just kinda curious to see what other 11880 wranglers are up to...
> 
> Thanks for any input!
>

Thanks for the info Tyler!  Do you suggest something like this for the Monaco settings:
http://celluloid.smugmug.com/Other/site-files/7765228_G2J6H#837683073_WRLXX-A-LB

And just out of curiosity, what might a more complicated setup entail?  

Managing expectations is definitely part of the issue here, everybody says "but you're the digital guy, can't you just tell it to match that print?" if only they knew... lol


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

>
> stopping short of more complicated setups, with all your good toys there I'd make carefully linearized and limited CMYK StudioPrint environments and full GCR CMYK Monaco profiles. Put your tints in the files in RGB, import and print from these StudioPrint/Monaco environments.
> Never perfect, but has advantages over ABW.
> Part of this is managing expectations, we were never in a position before digital to absolutely nail a preconceived hue, we had to accept something available from various product combinations, and it's still difficult in sensitive near neutrals with today's tools..
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
> >
> > I've got a trusty old 9600 running selenium K7, and I do 99% of my b/w work on it.  When size, media, or tone call for it, I switch over the the 11880.  As I understand it, QTR is not an option for the machine, so I have been using ABW.  I have my papers profiled, and am reasonably happy with the results, in terms of a nice looking print anyway.  Where this workflow struggles is when someone comes in and wants me to match an existing print or tone.  Sometimes, messing around with the settings in ABW will eventually get me close enough to make do, but at the expense of a lot of paper and time (unless there is something I'm missing).  I know there are other people out there with this same problem, so I thought I'd see what their solution has been.  I'm running Studioprint and Monaco, so with the money I have sunk into that software, purchasing another $1000+ program isn't an option right now-- plus I can't imagine those two pieces of software not being able to accomplish what I want.  With older printers I could have told Studioprint to treat it as monochrome and just used the 3 blacks, but from what I heard, Epson essentially forced Ergosoft to lock that option out (besides that would only provide a solution for warm prints anyway).
> > 
> > So yeah, I'm just kinda curious to see what other 11880 wranglers are up to...
> > 
> > Thanks for any input!
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info Tyler!  Do you suggest something like this for the Monaco settings:
> http://celluloid.smugmug.com/Other/site-files/7765228_G2J6H#837683073_WRLXX-A-LB
> 

yes, it does bug me though that Monaco has no real 100% top to bottom GCR setting. I do pretty much what this shows. Alternatively, if you purchased GPS with StudioPrint, it makes the most perfect neutral axis CMYK profiles I have ever seen. It does have other difficulties, the main being perceptual conversions are far too light, and unless you have the newest version, black point compensation is not available for relative color metric conversions in RIP on the fly, which would be best for this purpose and solve lightness problems. So relcol BPC conversions have to be pre done in Photoshop.
If you want to try that, use the highest GCR settings again for this...

> And just out of curiosity, what might a more complicated setup entail?  

more complication, therefore novel length posts, gigantor counsultation fees, death panels, etc etc... sorry couldn't resist.

Well, without going crazy... tuned profiles, with which Walker has experience and I do not, in Monaco. Environments most specifically set up for this, rather than color.. meaning emphasis on light inks, heavy CMY limiting restricted to expected hue variation requirements, so swings in those channels are large rather than minute, and more easily controlled (you will be surprised though, how much C and M it takes to make neutral with Epson blacks).. Heavy total ink limiting since gamut is not expected to be large, which the profilers love and will return more accurate profiles... play with the neutral axis options in Monaco (paper white, etc..) to see what  looks best..

There's more, but in terms of a color managed approach in StudioPrint, that's what comes to mind. Walker has done a lot with this too, his fees may be more competative, actually we'll probably collude...
Tyler

If you look in the archives I mentioned bw tuning of colorburst for 11880 to match a prior piezography hue-split. It can be done. Will take a few days. 

It can be done with a spectrophotometer, xrite profiler, colorburst, excel, and createICC-RGB. The createICC profiles are used as input profiles in ColorBurst in replace of AdobeRGB. Make sure you use Epson's dithering patterns with colorburst. Also make sure that you build your K ramp in Xrite-profiler as a straight line from top to bottom. 

Happy banging-your-head-against-the-wall. :-)

Walker



On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:50 PM, tboleyyh wrote:

> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the info Tyler! Do you suggest something like this for the Monaco settings:
> > http://celluloid.smugmug.com/Other/site-files/7765228_G2J6H#837683073_WRLXX-A-LB
> > 
> 
> yes, it does bug me though that Monaco has no real 100% top to bottom GCR setting. I do pretty much what this shows. Alternatively, if you purchased GPS with StudioPrint, it makes the most perfect neutral axis CMYK profiles I have ever seen. It does have other difficulties, the main being perceptual conversions are far too light, and unless you have the newest version, black point compensation is not available for relative color metric conversions in RIP on the fly, which would be best for this purpose and solve lightness problems. So relcol BPC conversions have to be pre done in Photoshop.
> If you want to try that, use the highest GCR settings again for this...
> 
> > And just out of curiosity, what might a more complicated setup entail? 
> 
> more complication, therefore novel length posts, gigantor counsultation fees, death panels, etc etc... sorry couldn't resist.
> 
> Well, without going crazy... tuned profiles, with which Walker has experience and I do not, in Monaco. Environments most specifically set up for this, rather than color.. meaning emphasis on light inks, heavy CMY limiting restricted to expected hue variation requirements, so swings in those channels are large rather than minute, and more easily controlled (you will be surprised though, how much C and M it takes to make neutral with Epson blacks).. Heavy total ink limiting since gamut is not expected to be large, which the profilers love and will return more accurate profiles... play with the neutral axis options in Monaco (paper white, etc..) to see what looks best..
> 
> There's more, but in terms of a color managed approach in StudioPrint, that's what comes to mind. Walker has done a lot with this too, his fees may be more competative, actually we'll probably collude...
> Tyler
> 
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the info guys, sorry for the delayed response, I decided to treat myself to a weekend away from the computer screen... a rare thing these days.

I'm really excited to hear that you were able to match a piezography tone, that would be an incredibly useful thing!
Walker, I've been mulling over your suggestions so I might be able to avoid unnecessarily dumb questions... I do have a couple though. lol
First off- can I accomplish this using Studioprint?  Assuming I can, I would want to use an HTM environment if my goal is to use Epson dithering, right?
Perhaps most importantly, at what point do I define the tone (I assume that's where the createICC profile comes in)?  Would I need to send my images to the RIP as toned color prints, or would the profile be set to print a specific tone?

I understand time is money, so if this is crazy complex, I don't expect you to sit down and write a novel explaining it to me.  If that's the case, maybe I could get you on the phone for a little paid consulting.

Thanks again for the input!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:

>
>  If you look in the archives I mentioned bw tuning of colorburst for 11880 to match a prior piezography hue-split. It can be done. Will take a few days. 
> 
> It can be done with a spectrophotometer, xrite profiler, colorburst, excel, and createICC-RGB. The createICC profiles are used as input profiles in ColorBurst in replace of AdobeRGB. Make sure you use Epson's dithering patterns with colorburst. Also make sure that you build your K ramp in Xrite-profiler as a straight line from top to bottom. 
> 
> Happy banging-your-head-against-the-wall. :-)
> 
> Walker
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:50 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for the info Tyler! Do you suggest something like this for the Monaco settings:
> > > http://celluloid.smugmug.com/Other/site-files/7765228_G2J6H#837683073_WRLXX-A-LB
> > > 
> > 
> > yes, it does bug me though that Monaco has no real 100% top to bottom GCR setting. I do pretty much what this shows. Alternatively, if you purchased GPS with StudioPrint, it makes the most perfect neutral axis CMYK profiles I have ever seen. It does have other difficulties, the main being perceptual conversions are far too light, and unless you have the newest version, black point compensation is not available for relative color metric conversions in RIP on the fly, which would be best for this purpose and solve lightness problems. So relcol BPC conversions have to be pre done in Photoshop.
> > If you want to try that, use the highest GCR settings again for this...
> > 
> > > And just out of curiosity, what might a more complicated setup entail? 
> > 
> > more complication, therefore novel length posts, gigantor counsultation fees, death panels, etc etc... sorry couldn't resist.
> > 
> > Well, without going crazy... tuned profiles, with which Walker has experience and I do not, in Monaco. Environments most specifically set up for this, rather than color.. meaning emphasis on light inks, heavy CMY limiting restricted to expected hue variation requirements, so swings in those channels are large rather than minute, and more easily controlled (you will be surprised though, how much C and M it takes to make neutral with Epson blacks).. Heavy total ink limiting since gamut is not expected to be large, which the profilers love and will return more accurate profiles... play with the neutral axis options in Monaco (paper white, etc..) to see what looks best..
> > 
> > There's more, but in terms of a color managed approach in StudioPrint, that's what comes to mind. Walker has done a lot with this too, his fees may be more competative, actually we'll probably collude...
> > Tyler
> > 
> > 
> 
> Walker Blackwell
> 802.821.4451
> www.walkerblackwell.com
> aim: greendirtblues
> wblackwell@...
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In theory you could do this with Studioprint but in my opinions SP12 does not apply input profiles correctly but it's worth a try. Essentially what you are doing is building a custom CMYK environment using the Epson dither because that dither neutralizes the K channel before it hits your spectrophotometer. The profiling software then works less to build a good profile. However, you do need pre-linearize your profile patches using Colorport (if you are using the xrite patches). This gives a better profile using StudioPrint or Colorburst.

Once you have a good color CMYK environment (that does decent BW prints) you print out a 50 patch grayscale target through it. Then you read these values in and invert the a/b values in Excel. When you then apply this create-ICC profile as an input profile in the studioprint/colorburst environment, it will "neutralize" the print. The first goal is to get a near-perfect level of a/b going down your entire print. Then you can read in the values for a 50 patch swatch printed from a piezo printer and add these values to the excel "neutralize" a/b values. Build this profile, use it as an input, and in theory it will match the piezo system. In practice, it requires many iterations of tweaking. You can use excel to do iterative profiling using create-icc. I've been trying to come up with a formula that can computer to the a/b "momentum" (or swing) per L value on X printer, but I'm just not that smart. If someone does figure out that excel formula, than perfect matches can be created using modern Epson printers (11880,9900) and Colorburst (or possibly studioprint.) It would require min three patches per L value added to the "neutralize" a/b values from the first printed gray target.

Walker


On Apr 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, CelluloidPhotography wrote:

> Thanks for the info guys, sorry for the delayed response, I decided to treat myself to a weekend away from the computer screen... a rare thing these days.
> 
> I'm really excited to hear that you were able to match a piezography tone, that would be an incredibly useful thing!
> Walker, I've been mulling over your suggestions so I might be able to avoid unnecessarily dumb questions... I do have a couple though. lol
> First off- can I accomplish this using Studioprint? Assuming I can, I would want to use an HTM environment if my goal is to use Epson dithering, right?
> Perhaps most importantly, at what point do I define the tone (I assume that's where the createICC profile comes in)? Would I need to send my images to the RIP as toned color prints, or would the profile be set to print a specific tone?
> 
> I understand time is money, so if this is crazy complex, I don't expect you to sit down and write a novel explaining it to me. If that's the case, maybe I could get you on the phone for a little paid consulting.
> 
> Thanks again for the input!
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:
> >
> > If you look in the archives I mentioned bw tuning of colorburst for 11880 to match a prior piezography hue-split. It can be done. Will take a few days. 
> > 
> > It can be done with a spectrophotometer, xrite profiler, colorburst, excel, and createICC-RGB. The createICC profiles are used as input profiles in ColorBurst in replace of AdobeRGB. Make sure you use Epson's dithering patterns with colorburst. Also make sure that you build your K ramp in Xrite-profiler as a straight line from top to bottom. 
> > 
> > Happy banging-your-head-against-the-wall. :-)
> > 
> > Walker
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:50 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the info Tyler! Do you suggest something like this for the Monaco settings:
> > > > http://celluloid.smugmug.com/Other/site-files/7765228_G2J6H#837683073_WRLXX-A-LB
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > yes, it does bug me though that Monaco has no real 100% top to bottom GCR setting. I do pretty much what this shows. Alternatively, if you purchased GPS with StudioPrint, it makes the most perfect neutral axis CMYK profiles I have ever seen. It does have other difficulties, the main being perceptual conversions are far too light, and unless you have the newest version, black point compensation is not available for relative color metric conversions in RIP on the fly, which would be best for this purpose and solve lightness problems. So relcol BPC conversions have to be pre done in Photoshop.
> > > If you want to try that, use the highest GCR settings again for this...
> > > 
> > > > And just out of curiosity, what might a more complicated setup entail? 
> > > 
> > > more complication, therefore novel length posts, gigantor counsultation fees, death panels, etc etc... sorry couldn't resist.
> > > 
> > > Well, without going crazy... tuned profiles, with which Walker has experience and I do not, in Monaco. Environments most specifically set up for this, rather than color.. meaning emphasis on light inks, heavy CMY limiting restricted to expected hue variation requirements, so swings in those channels are large rather than minute, and more easily controlled (you will be surprised though, how much C and M it takes to make neutral with Epson blacks).. Heavy total ink limiting since gamut is not expected to be large, which the profilers love and will return more accurate profiles... play with the neutral axis options in Monaco (paper white, etc..) to see what looks best..
> > > 
> > > There's more, but in terms of a color managed approach in StudioPrint, that's what comes to mind. Walker has done a lot with this too, his fees may be more competative, actually we'll probably collude...
> > > Tyler
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Walker Blackwell
> > 802.821.4451
> > www.walkerblackwell.com
> > aim: greendirtblues
> > wblackwell@...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@googlewave.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alright, I think I have enough info to keep myself busy for a while. lol
I've never used the linearization option in Colorport, will it conflict with my linearization in SP?  Or should I use it in place of it?

So if I actually succeed in this, I should be able to match any tone, say a warm toned RC print, or sepia fiber print, as long as I can measure a grayscale target printed with said tone?  How awesome!

Let the head-against-the-wall banging begin!

Thanks Walker!

I'll post back once I either succeed or get stuck. ;)

-Eric

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:

>
> In theory you could do this with Studioprint but in my opinions SP12 does not apply input profiles correctly but it's worth a try. Essentially what you are doing is building a custom CMYK environment using the Epson dither because that dither neutralizes the K channel before it hits your spectrophotometer. The profiling software then works less to build a good profile. However, you do need pre-linearize your profile patches using Colorport (if you are using the xrite patches). This gives a better profile using StudioPrint or Colorburst.
> 
> Once you have a good color CMYK environment (that does decent BW prints) you print out a 50 patch grayscale target through it. Then you read these values in and invert the a/b values in Excel. When you then apply this create-ICC profile as an input profile in the studioprint/colorburst environment, it will "neutralize" the print. The first goal is to get a near-perfect level of a/b going down your entire print. Then you can read in the values for a 50 patch swatch printed from a piezo printer and add these values to the excel "neutralize" a/b values. Build this profile, use it as an input, and in theory it will match the piezo system. In practice, it requires many iterations of tweaking. You can use excel to do iterative profiling using create-icc. I've been trying to come up with a formula that can computer to the a/b "momentum" (or swing) per L value on X printer, but I'm just not that smart. If someone does figure out that excel formula, than perfect matches can be created using modern Epson printers (11880,9900) and Colorburst (or possibly studioprint.) It would require min three patches per L value added to the "neutralize" a/b values from the first printed gray target.
> 
> Walker
> 
> 
> On Apr 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, CelluloidPhotography wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for the info guys, sorry for the delayed response, I decided to treat myself to a weekend away from the computer screen... a rare thing these days.
> > 
> > I'm really excited to hear that you were able to match a piezography tone, that would be an incredibly useful thing!
> > Walker, I've been mulling over your suggestions so I might be able to avoid unnecessarily dumb questions... I do have a couple though. lol
> > First off- can I accomplish this using Studioprint? Assuming I can, I would want to use an HTM environment if my goal is to use Epson dithering, right?
> > Perhaps most importantly, at what point do I define the tone (I assume that's where the createICC profile comes in)? Would I need to send my images to the RIP as toned color prints, or would the profile be set to print a specific tone?
> > 
> > I understand time is money, so if this is crazy complex, I don't expect you to sit down and write a novel explaining it to me. If that's the case, maybe I could get you on the phone for a little paid consulting.
> > 
> > Thanks again for the input!
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@> wrote:
> > >
> > > If you look in the archives I mentioned bw tuning of colorburst for 11880 to match a prior piezography hue-split. It can be done. Will take a few days. 
> > > 
> > > It can be done with a spectrophotometer, xrite profiler, colorburst, excel, and createICC-RGB. The createICC profiles are used as input profiles in ColorBurst in replace of AdobeRGB. Make sure you use Epson's dithering patterns with colorburst. Also make sure that you build your K ramp in Xrite-profiler as a straight line from top to bottom. 
> > > 
> > > Happy banging-your-head-against-the-wall. :-)
> > > 
> > > Walker
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:50 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the info Tyler! Do you suggest something like this for the Monaco settings:
> > > > > http://celluloid.smugmug.com/Other/site-files/7765228_G2J6H#837683073_WRLXX-A-LB
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > yes, it does bug me though that Monaco has no real 100% top to bottom GCR setting. I do pretty much what this shows. Alternatively, if you purchased GPS with StudioPrint, it makes the most perfect neutral axis CMYK profiles I have ever seen. It does have other difficulties, the main being perceptual conversions are far too light, and unless you have the newest version, black point compensation is not available for relative color metric conversions in RIP on the fly, which would be best for this purpose and solve lightness problems. So relcol BPC conversions have to be pre done in Photoshop.
> > > > If you want to try that, use the highest GCR settings again for this...
> > > > 
> > > > > And just out of curiosity, what might a more complicated setup entail? 
> > > > 
> > > > more complication, therefore novel length posts, gigantor counsultation fees, death panels, etc etc... sorry couldn't resist.
> > > > 
> > > > Well, without going crazy... tuned profiles, with which Walker has experience and I do not, in Monaco. Environments most specifically set up for this, rather than color.. meaning emphasis on light inks, heavy CMY limiting restricted to expected hue variation requirements, so swings in those channels are large rather than minute, and more easily controlled (you will be surprised though, how much C and M it takes to make neutral with Epson blacks).. Heavy total ink limiting since gamut is not expected to be large, which the profilers love and will return more accurate profiles... play with the neutral axis options in Monaco (paper white, etc..) to see what looks best..
> > > > 
> > > > There's more, but in terms of a color managed approach in StudioPrint, that's what comes to mind. Walker has done a lot with this too, his fees may be more competative, actually we'll probably collude...
> > > > Tyler
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Walker Blackwell
> > > 802.821.4451
> > > www.walkerblackwell.com
> > > aim: greendirtblues
> > > wblackwell@
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > 
> > 
> 
> Walker Blackwell
> 802.821.4451
> www.walkerblackwell.com
> aim: greendirtblues
> wblackwell@...
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Yes Eric. In theory you can match silver prints and this is what I developed the technique for in the first place. However, I just haven't had enough time with teaching and my own art to go ahead and really get it rolling. (I wanted to start a library of lab values for various silver prints) So I'm excited that someone else here is getting into it.

vis a vis linearizing the patches. The word "linearization" as it pertains to xrite patches is a mis-nomer. Essentially you are creating a custom patch set based upon your printer/rip base characteristics (tonal/hue curve) when you do this in ColorPort. This is especially useful in StudioPrint because if you use an un-linearized patch set and build an xrite profile out of those readings, neutrality tends to get screwy.

So you first build your StudioPrint/colorburst environment and linearize it. Then you linearize your xrite patches (by printing the lin target through the new environment). Then you build the lin'd patches in Cport and print them and build the CMYK profile. Then you go in and build the custom input profile used to neutralize (then tone) the output image.


REMEMBER: Invert the A/B values when building the 'neutralize' input profile.

Walker


On Apr 21, 2010, at 12:35 PM, CelluloidPhotography wrote:

> Alright, I think I have enough info to keep myself busy for a while. lol
> I've never used the linearization option in Colorport, will it conflict with my linearization in SP? Or should I use it in place of it?
> 
> So if I actually succeed in this, I should be able to match any tone, say a warm toned RC print, or sepia fiber print, as long as I can measure a grayscale target printed with said tone? How awesome!
> 
> Let the head-against-the-wall banging begin!
> 
> Thanks Walker!
> 
> I'll post back once I either succeed or get stuck. ;)
> 
> -Eric
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:
> >
> > In theory you could do this with Studioprint but in my opinions SP12 does not apply input profiles correctly but it's worth a try. Essentially what you are doing is building a custom CMYK environment using the Epson dither because that dither neutralizes the K channel before it hits your spectrophotometer. The profiling software then works less to build a good profile. However, you do need pre-linearize your profile patches using Colorport (if you are using the xrite patches). This gives a better profile using StudioPrint or Colorburst.
> > 
> > Once you have a good color CMYK environment (that does decent BW prints) you print out a 50 patch grayscale target through it. Then you read these values in and invert the a/b values in Excel. When you then apply this create-ICC profile as an input profile in the studioprint/colorburst environment, it will "neutralize" the print. The first goal is to get a near-perfect level of a/b going down your entire print. Then you can read in the values for a 50 patch swatch printed from a piezo printer and add these values to the excel "neutralize" a/b values. Build this profile, use it as an input, and in theory it will match the piezo system. In practice, it requires many iterations of tweaking. You can use excel to do iterative profiling using create-icc. I've been trying to come up with a formula that can computer to the a/b "momentum" (or swing) per L value on X printer, but I'm just not that smart. If someone does figure out that excel formula, than perfect matches can be created using modern Epson printers (11880,9900) and Colorburst (or possibly studioprint.) It would require min three patches per L value added to the "neutralize" a/b values from the first printed gray target.
> > 
> > Walker
> > 
> > 
> > On Apr 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, CelluloidPhotography wrote:
> > 
> > > Thanks for the info guys, sorry for the delayed response, I decided to treat myself to a weekend away from the computer screen... a rare thing these days.
> > > 
> > > I'm really excited to hear that you were able to match a piezography tone, that would be an incredibly useful thing!
> > > Walker, I've been mulling over your suggestions so I might be able to avoid unnecessarily dumb questions... I do have a couple though. lol
> > > First off- can I accomplish this using Studioprint? Assuming I can, I would want to use an HTM environment if my goal is to use Epson dithering, right?
> > > Perhaps most importantly, at what point do I define the tone (I assume that's where the createICC profile comes in)? Would I need to send my images to the RIP as toned color prints, or would the profile be set to print a specific tone?
> > > 
> > > I understand time is money, so if this is crazy complex, I don't expect you to sit down and write a novel explaining it to me. If that's the case, maybe I could get you on the phone for a little paid consulting.
> > > 
> > > Thanks again for the input!
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If you look in the archives I mentioned bw tuning of colorburst for 11880 to match a prior piezography hue-split. It can be done. Will take a few days. 
> > > > 
> > > > It can be done with a spectrophotometer, xrite profiler, colorburst, excel, and createICC-RGB. The createICC profiles are used as input profiles in ColorBurst in replace of AdobeRGB. Make sure you use Epson's dithering patterns with colorburst. Also make sure that you build your K ramp in Xrite-profiler as a straight line from top to bottom. 
> > > > 
> > > > Happy banging-your-head-against-the-wall. :-)
> > > > 
> > > > Walker
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:50 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for the info Tyler! Do you suggest something like this for the Monaco settings:
> > > > > > http://celluloid.smugmug.com/Other/site-files/7765228_G2J6H#837683073_WRLXX-A-LB
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > yes, it does bug me though that Monaco has no real 100% top to bottom GCR setting. I do pretty much what this shows. Alternatively, if you purchased GPS with StudioPrint, it makes the most perfect neutral axis CMYK profiles I have ever seen. It does have other difficulties, the main being perceptual conversions are far too light, and unless you have the newest version, black point compensation is not available for relative color metric conversions in RIP on the fly, which would be best for this purpose and solve lightness problems. So relcol BPC conversions have to be pre done in Photoshop.
> > > > > If you want to try that, use the highest GCR settings again for this...
> > > > > 
> > > > > > And just out of curiosity, what might a more complicated setup entail? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > more complication, therefore novel length posts, gigantor counsultation fees, death panels, etc etc... sorry couldn't resist.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well, without going crazy... tuned profiles, with which Walker has experience and I do not, in Monaco. Environments most specifically set up for this, rather than color.. meaning emphasis on light inks, heavy CMY limiting restricted to expected hue variation requirements, so swings in those channels are large rather than minute, and more easily controlled (you will be surprised though, how much C and M it takes to make neutral with Epson blacks).. Heavy total ink limiting since gamut is not expected to be large, which the profilers love and will return more accurate profiles... play with the neutral axis options in Monaco (paper white, etc..) to see what looks best..
> > > > > 
> > > > > There's more, but in terms of a color managed approach in StudioPrint, that's what comes to mind. Walker has done a lot with this too, his fees may be more competative, actually we'll probably collude...
> > > > > Tyler
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Walker Blackwell
> > > > 802.821.4451
> > > > www.walkerblackwell.com
> > > > aim: greendirtblues
> > > > wblackwell@
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Walker Blackwell
> > 802.821.4451
> > www.walkerblackwell.com
> > aim: greendirtblues
> > wblackwell@...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@googlewave.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Perhaps documenting & sharing the LAB values for various papers/toners can be some small way of repaying you for your time. =)I'm the digital portion of a custom b/w lab, and wanting to match tones is something that comes up all the time here.  Plus, this lab has been around since the 30's, and we're sittin on some boxes of long extinct papers... man we could get into some cool stuff.
Ok, so I've built my HTM environment (no limiting in the linearization or TIL), "linearized" my patches in Colorport, and printed and read the chart.  In Monaco I built my profile with the following settings: 100% GCR, no intelli black, max black 100% & max ink 400%, and adjusted the curve to a straight vertical line for the black usage (right?)
I want to be sure I get this next part right, or it's all for not. lolWhen I print my 50 gray patches, which type of chart should I use?  I used the QTR 51 random chart yesterday, but realized something: as per my conversations with Mark at Ergo, it is my understand that if I send a grayscale file to the 11880, it will print using only the black inks.  Assuming that is correct, I need to send my gray patches as a color file, right?  I tried that, and got drastically different results sending it as an RGB file vs CMYK, so I'm not sure what kind of conversion is going on, or which one I want.
One last thing, I did go back into the archives and read your previous discussion with Jon, were you ever successful in finding (or creating) a txt file for your gray patches?  I've got a spectroscan, and it's a pain having to read those patches by hand, I figure there's gotta be a way to format the chart so I can let the spectro do its thing.  
Getting closer!... or so I think.

> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> From: forums@walkerblackwell.com
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:47:11 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?
> 
> Yes Eric. In theory you can match silver prints and this is what I developed the technique for in the first place. However, I just haven't had enough time with teaching and my own art to go ahead and really get it rolling. (I wanted to start a library of lab values for various silver prints) So I'm excited that someone else here is getting into it.
> 
> vis a vis linearizing the patches. The word "linearization" as it pertains to xrite patches is a mis-nomer. Essentially you are creating a custom patch set based upon your printer/rip base characteristics (tonal/hue curve) when you do this in ColorPort. This is especially useful in StudioPrint because if you use an un-linearized patch set and build an xrite profile out of those readings, neutrality tends to get screwy.
> 
> So you first build your StudioPrint/colorburst environment and linearize it. Then you linearize your xrite patches (by printing the lin target through the new environment). Then you build the lin'd patches in Cport and print them and build the CMYK profile. Then you go in and build the custom input profile used to neutralize (then tone) the output image.
> 
> 
> REMEMBER: Invert the A/B values when building the 'neutralize' input profile.
> 
> Walker
> 
> 
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 12:35 PM, CelluloidPhotography wrote:
> 
> > Alright, I think I have enough info to keep myself busy for a while. lol
> > I've never used the linearization option in Colorport, will it conflict with my linearization in SP? Or should I use it in place of it?
> > 
> > So if I actually succeed in this, I should be able to match any tone, say a warm toned RC print, or sepia fiber print, as long as I can measure a grayscale target printed with said tone? How awesome!
> > 
> > Let the head-against-the-wall banging begin!
> > 
> > Thanks Walker!
> > 
> > I'll post back once I either succeed or get stuck. ;)
> > 
> > -Eric
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > In theory you could do this with Studioprint but in my opinions SP12 does not apply input profiles correctly but it's worth a try. Essentially what you are doing is building a custom CMYK environment using the Epson dither because that dither neutralizes the K channel before it hits your spectrophotometer. The profiling software then works less to build a good profile. However, you do need pre-linearize your profile patches using Colorport (if you are using the xrite patches). This gives a better profile using StudioPrint or Colorburst.
> > > 
> > > Once you have a good color CMYK environment (that does decent BW prints) you print out a 50 patch grayscale target through it. Then you read these values in and invert the a/b values in Excel. When you then apply this create-ICC profile as an input profile in the studioprint/colorburst environment, it will "neutralize" the print. The first goal is to get a near-perfect level of a/b going down your entire print. Then you can read in the values for a 50 patch swatch printed from a piezo printer and add these values to the excel "neutralize" a/b values. Build this profile, use it as an input, and in theory it will match the piezo system. In practice, it requires many iterations of tweaking. You can use excel to do iterative profiling using create-icc. I've been trying to come up with a formula that can computer to the a/b "momentum" (or swing) per L value on X printer, but I'm just not that smart. If someone does figure out that excel formula, than perfect matches can be created using modern Epson printers (11880,9900) and Colorburst (or possibly studioprint.) It would require min three patches per L value added to the "neutralize" a/b values from the first printed gray target.
> > > 
> > > Walker
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Apr 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, CelluloidPhotography wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Thanks for the info guys, sorry for the delayed response, I decided to treat myself to a weekend away from the computer screen... a rare thing these days.
> > > > 
> > > > I'm really excited to hear that you were able to match a piezography tone, that would be an incredibly useful thing!
> > > > Walker, I've been mulling over your suggestions so I might be able to avoid unnecessarily dumb questions... I do have a couple though. lol
> > > > First off- can I accomplish this using Studioprint? Assuming I can, I would want to use an HTM environment if my goal is to use Epson dithering, right?
> > > > Perhaps most importantly, at what point do I define the tone (I assume that's where the createICC profile comes in)? Would I need to send my images to the RIP as toned color prints, or would the profile be set to print a specific tone?
> > > > 
> > > > I understand time is money, so if this is crazy complex, I don't expect you to sit down and write a novel explaining it to me. If that's the case, maybe I could get you on the phone for a little paid consulting.
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks again for the input!
> > > > 
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If you look in the archives I mentioned bw tuning of colorburst for 11880 to match a prior piezography hue-split. It can be done. Will take a few days. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > It can be done with a spectrophotometer, xrite profiler, colorburst, excel, and createICC-RGB. The createICC profiles are used as input profiles in ColorBurst in replace of AdobeRGB. Make sure you use Epson's dithering patterns with colorburst. Also make sure that you build your K ramp in Xrite-profiler as a straight line from top to bottom. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Happy banging-your-head-against-the-wall. :-)
> > > > > 
> > > > > Walker
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:50 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for the info Tyler! Do you suggest something like this for the Monaco settings:
> > > > > > > http://celluloid.smugmug.com/Other/site-files/7765228_G2J6H#837683073_WRLXX-A-LB
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > yes, it does bug me though that Monaco has no real 100% top to bottom GCR setting. I do pretty much what this shows. Alternatively, if you purchased GPS with StudioPrint, it makes the most perfect neutral axis CMYK profiles I have ever seen. It does have other difficulties, the main being perceptual conversions are far too light, and unless you have the newest version, black point compensation is not available for relative color metric conversions in RIP on the fly, which would be best for this purpose and solve lightness problems. So relcol BPC conversions have to be pre done in Photoshop.
> > > > > > If you want to try that, use the highest GCR settings again for this...
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > And just out of curiosity, what might a more complicated setup entail? 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > more complication, therefore novel length posts, gigantor counsultation fees, death panels, etc etc... sorry couldn't resist.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Well, without going crazy... tuned profiles, with which Walker has experience and I do not, in Monaco. Environments most specifically set up for this, rather than color.. meaning emphasis on light inks, heavy CMY limiting restricted to expected hue variation requirements, so swings in those channels are large rather than minute, and more easily controlled (you will be surprised though, how much C and M it takes to make neutral with Epson blacks).. Heavy total ink limiting since gamut is not expected to be large, which the profilers love and will return more accurate profiles... play with the neutral axis options in Monaco (paper white, etc..) to see what looks best..
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > There's more, but in terms of a color managed approach in StudioPrint, that's what comes to mind. Walker has done a lot with this too, his fees may be more competative, actually we'll probably collude...
> > > > > > Tyler
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Walker Blackwell
> > > > > 802.821.4451
> > > > > www.walkerblackwell.com
> > > > > aim: greendirtblues
> > > > > wblackwell@
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Walker Blackwell
> > > 802.821.4451
> > > www.walkerblackwell.com
> > > aim: greendirtblues
> > > wblackwell@...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > 
> > 
> 
> Walker Blackwell
> 802.821.4451
> www.walkerblackwell.com
> aim: greendirtblues
> wblackwell@...
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 22, 2010, at 2:20 PM, Eric Edmondson wrote:

> 
> Perhaps documenting & sharing the LAB values for various papers/toners can be some small way of repaying you for your time. =)I'm the digital portion of a custom b/w lab, and wanting to match tones is something that comes up all the time here.  Plus, this lab has been around since the 30's, and we're sittin on some boxes of long extinct papers... man we could get into some cool stuff.
> Ok, so I've built my HTM environment (no limiting in the linearization or TIL), "linearized" my patches in Colorport, and printed and read the chart.  In Monaco I built my profile with the following settings: 100% GCR, no intelli black, max black 100% & max ink 400%, and adjusted the curve to a straight vertical line for the black usage (right?)

Right so far.

> I want to be sure I get this next part right, or it's all for not. lolWhen I print my 50 gray patches, which type of chart should I use?  I used the QTR 51 random chart yesterday, but realized something: as per my conversations with Mark at Ergo, it is my understand that if I send a grayscale file to the 11880, it will print using only the black inks.

SP sucks for that. So yeah. You'll need to use RGB? Experiment. I haven't with SP. That program is a pain in my butt and I gave up on it for color a long time ago. (Ironic considering I'm moderating the SP user group on Google. v2008 seems to be much better.)

>  Assuming that is correct, I need to send my gray patches as a color file, right?  I tried that, and got drastically different results sending it as an RGB file vs CMYK, so I'm not sure what kind of conversion is going on, or which one I want.

Hmmm. The question is if you can set the input profile to None . . . . or Adobe RGB for the Grayscale 51 patch. Again I haven't experimented w/ SP12 yet for this setup. That program is laughably limited in some respects vis a vis Epson. I still use v12 for Piezo printing but not for more complex stuff . . .

> One last thing, I did go back into the archives and read your previous discussion with Jon, were you ever successful in finding (or creating) a txt file for your gray patches?

Yeah. Well. I actually created it for colorport. You can find it at uvm.edu/art/photoweb/icc/

>  I've got a spectroscan, and it's a pain having to read those patches by hand, I figure there's gotta be a way to format the chart so I can let the spectro do its thing.  

ColorPort. :-)

> Getting closer!... or so I think.


Good luck. I hope there is a way to run the grayscale through there. I would think it would be RGB and not CMYK but you could apple the SP CMYK profile into your 51 patch tif and send it through SP that way. :-)

walker

> 
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> From: forums@...
>> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:47:11 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?
>> 
>> Yes Eric. In theory you can match silver prints and this is what I developed the technique for in the first place. However, I just haven't had enough time with teaching and my own art to go ahead and really get it rolling. (I wanted to start a library of lab values for various silver prints) So I'm excited that someone else here is getting into it.
>> 
>> vis a vis linearizing the patches. The word "linearization" as it pertains to xrite patches is a mis-nomer. Essentially you are creating a custom patch set based upon your printer/rip base characteristics (tonal/hue curve) when you do this in ColorPort. This is especially useful in StudioPrint because if you use an un-linearized patch set and build an xrite profile out of those readings, neutrality tends to get screwy.
>> 
>> So you first build your StudioPrint/colorburst environment and linearize it. Then you linearize your xrite patches (by printing the lin target through the new environment). Then you build the lin'd patches in Cport and print them and build the CMYK profile. Then you go in and build the custom input profile used to neutralize (then tone) the output image.
>> 
>> 
>> REMEMBER: Invert the A/B values when building the 'neutralize' input profile.
>> 
>> Walker
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 21, 2010, at 12:35 PM, CelluloidPhotography wrote:
>> 
>>> Alright, I think I have enough info to keep myself busy for a while. lol
>>> I've never used the linearization option in Colorport, will it conflict with my linearization in SP? Or should I use it in place of it?
>>> 
>>> So if I actually succeed in this, I should be able to match any tone, say a warm toned RC print, or sepia fiber print, as long as I can measure a grayscale target printed with said tone? How awesome!
>>> 
>>> Let the head-against-the-wall banging begin!
>>> 
>>> Thanks Walker!
>>> 
>>> I'll post back once I either succeed or get stuck. ;)
>>> 
>>> -Eric
>>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> In theory you could do this with Studioprint but in my opinions SP12 does not apply input profiles correctly but it's worth a try. Essentially what you are doing is building a custom CMYK environment using the Epson dither because that dither neutralizes the K channel before it hits your spectrophotometer. The profiling software then works less to build a good profile. However, you do need pre-linearize your profile patches using Colorport (if you are using the xrite patches). This gives a better profile using StudioPrint or Colorburst.
>>>> 
>>>> Once you have a good color CMYK environment (that does decent BW prints) you print out a 50 patch grayscale target through it. Then you read these values in and invert the a/b values in Excel. When you then apply this create-ICC profile as an input profile in the studioprint/colorburst environment, it will "neutralize" the print. The first goal is to get a near-perfect level of a/b going down your entire print. Then you can read in the values for a 50 patch swatch printed from a piezo printer and add these values to the excel "neutralize" a/b values. Build this profile, use it as an input, and in theory it will match the piezo system. In practice, it requires many iterations of tweaking. You can use excel to do iterative profiling using create-icc. I've been trying to come up with a formula that can computer to the a/b "momentum" (or swing) per L value on X printer, but I'm just not that smart. If someone does figure out that excel formula, than perfect matches can be created using modern Epson printers (11880,9900) and Colorburst (or possibly studioprint.) It would require min three patches per L value added to the "neutralize" a/b values from the first printed gray target.
>>>> 
>>>> Walker
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 19, 2010, at 1:46 PM, CelluloidPhotography wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for the info guys, sorry for the delayed response, I decided to treat myself to a weekend away from the computer screen... a rare thing these days.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm really excited to hear that you were able to match a piezography tone, that would be an incredibly useful thing!
>>>>> Walker, I've been mulling over your suggestions so I might be able to avoid unnecessarily dumb questions... I do have a couple though. lol
>>>>> First off- can I accomplish this using Studioprint? Assuming I can, I would want to use an HTM environment if my goal is to use Epson dithering, right?
>>>>> Perhaps most importantly, at what point do I define the tone (I assume that's where the createICC profile comes in)? Would I need to send my images to the RIP as toned color prints, or would the profile be set to print a specific tone?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I understand time is money, so if this is crazy complex, I don't expect you to sit down and write a novel explaining it to me. If that's the case, maybe I could get you on the phone for a little paid consulting.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks again for the input!
>>>>> 
>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you look in the archives I mentioned bw tuning of colorburst for 11880 to match a prior piezography hue-split. It can be done. Will take a few days. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It can be done with a spectrophotometer, xrite profiler, colorburst, excel, and createICC-RGB. The createICC profiles are used as input profiles in ColorBurst in replace of AdobeRGB. Make sure you use Epson's dithering patterns with colorburst. Also make sure that you build your K ramp in Xrite-profiler as a straight line from top to bottom. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Happy banging-your-head-against-the-wall. :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Walker
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 2:50 PM, tboleyyh wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "CelluloidPhotography" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the info Tyler! Do you suggest something like this for the Monaco settings:
>>>>>>>> http://celluloid.smugmug.com/Other/site-files/7765228_G2J6H#837683073_WRLXX-A-LB
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> yes, it does bug me though that Monaco has no real 100% top to bottom GCR setting. I do pretty much what this shows. Alternatively, if you purchased GPS with StudioPrint, it makes the most perfect neutral axis CMYK profiles I have ever seen. It does have other difficulties, the main being perceptual conversions are far too light, and unless you have the newest version, black point compensation is not available for relative color metric conversions in RIP on the fly, which would be best for this purpose and solve lightness problems. So relcol BPC conversions have to be pre done in Photoshop.
>>>>>>> If you want to try that, use the highest GCR settings again for this...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And just out of curiosity, what might a more complicated setup entail? 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> more complication, therefore novel length posts, gigantor counsultation fees, death panels, etc etc... sorry couldn't resist.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, without going crazy... tuned profiles, with which Walker has experience and I do not, in Monaco. Environments most specifically set up for this, rather than color.. meaning emphasis on light inks, heavy CMY limiting restricted to expected hue variation requirements, so swings in those channels are large rather than minute, and more easily controlled (you will be surprised though, how much C and M it takes to make neutral with Epson blacks).. Heavy total ink limiting since gamut is not expected to be large, which the profilers love and will return more accurate profiles... play with the neutral axis options in Monaco (paper white, etc..) to see what looks best..
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There's more, but in terms of a color managed approach in StudioPrint, that's what comes to mind. Walker has done a lot with this too, his fees may be more competative, actually we'll probably collude...
>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Walker Blackwell
>>>>>> 802.821.4451
>>>>>> www.walkerblackwell.com
>>>>>> aim: greendirtblues
>>>>>> wblackwell@
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Walker Blackwell
>>>> 802.821.4451
>>>> www.walkerblackwell.com
>>>> aim: greendirtblues
>>>> wblackwell@...
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> Walker Blackwell
>> 802.821.4451
>> www.walkerblackwell.com
>> aim: greendirtblues
>> wblackwell@...
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>> 
>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 		 	   		  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...

Solution for printing grayscale patch (tune) through SP CMYK environment.

Grab the SP ICC profile and put it into your OS. Convert the 51 step patch to it. Send print through SP.

This should do it.

Walker

exactly, then the problem remains how to do it on the fly with grayscale files... so, your options are-

1) preconvert to SP CMYK, as this suggests, even for image printing from here on out.

2) import gray as rgb, then proceed normally, but you should have done that with your chart as well, this will auto assign SP's "default" RGB, which is fine, but the entire process, charts, images and all, from here on out need to be done that way.

3) Preconvert grayscales to rgb of your choice.

4) import gray as RGB, then assign (in SP) an RGB space of same gamma as your grayscale... this would be preferable... 

actually any of these need to be done consistantly from charts to actual use for any of it to make any sense...
Hope I'm not confusing matters.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:

>
> Solution for printing grayscale patch (tune) through SP CMYK environment.
> 
> Grab the SP ICC profile and put it into your OS. Convert the 51 step patch to it. Send print through SP.
> 
> This should do it.
> 
> Walker
>

This is all good except that in order to make the correct RGB input profile that can be used with SP, you have to simulate a "null" input profile to CMYK conversion (untagged gray --> CMYK) when printing the Grayscale targets and the only way to start that (and be sure of no complications in my opinion) is to do it in Photoshop. Finding/researching a similar "spacer" RGB input profile (that actually works with SP) is just a waste of time as you would only be doing the gray->cmyk conversion once. So maybe doing a Perceptual conversion in PS would work best here because that is what you'll want to be doing inside StudioPrint when you're ripping live prints. I don't see much difference between Percep in PS and Percep in SP.

This gets the ball rolling and then you can take that first "neutralize" RGB ICC you create from the first gray patch print and use that as input (if studioprint recognizes the CreateICC RGB profile. You might have to rename as .icm.) After that you just replace the input profile with the next iterative one until you have the correct LaB values on your gray print (match).

Walker




On Apr 23, 2010, at 4:40 PM, tboleyyh wrote:

> exactly, then the problem remains how to do it on the fly with grayscale files... so, your options are-
> 
> 1) preconvert to SP CMYK, as this suggests, even for image printing from here on out.
> 
> 2) import gray as rgb, then proceed normally, but you should have done that with your chart as well, this will auto assign SP's "default" RGB, which is fine, but the entire process, charts, images and all, from here on out need to be done that way.
> 
> 3) Preconvert grayscales to rgb of your choice.
> 
> 4) import gray as RGB, then assign (in SP) an RGB space of same gamma as your grayscale... this would be preferable... 
> 
> actually any of these need to be done consistantly from charts to actual use for any of it to make any sense...
> Hope I'm not confusing matters.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:
> >
> > Solution for printing grayscale patch (tune) through SP CMYK environment.
> > 
> > Grab the SP ICC profile and put it into your OS. Convert the 51 step patch to it. Send print through SP.
> > 
> > This should do it.
> > 
> > Walker
> >
> 
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

got it, came in mid thread...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:
...
> This gets the ball rolling and then you can take that first "neutralize" RGB ICC you create from the first gray patch print and use that as input (if studioprint recognizes the CreateICC RGB profile. You might have to rename as .icm.)...

pretty sure you have to copy it over the the folder SP looks for as well... ESRIP/data/color... etc...
Tyler

Yes. Thanks for noting that Tyler. I was certainly skipping some steps.

Eric. I said RelCol BPC on IM. It actually should be Perceptual if you are using SP12.

Walker


On Apr 23, 2010, at 5:05 PM, tboleyyh wrote:

> got it, came in mid thread...
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <forums@...> wrote:
> ...
> > This gets the ball rolling and then you can take that first "neutralize" RGB ICC you create from the first gray patch print and use that as input (if studioprint recognizes the CreateICC RGB profile. You might have to rename as .icm.)...
> 
> pretty sure you have to copy it over the the folder SP looks for as well... ESRIP/data/color... etc...
> Tyler
> 
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It all recalls some memories of using my Epson 9000 with a custom quad 
set + the Wasatch SoftRip. That was before QTR existed. Converting a 
greyscale TIFF to a CMYK TIFF where each channel had the same content 
the greyscale TIFF had. Taking out one channel of CMY with a zero curve 
in the RIP so no black generation happened and applying 3 curves for the 
remaining 5 channels to fit the grey inks.  Linearisation as available 
in the RIP per channel but not on the total partioned result. It worked 
but what a hassle. It was nice to be there when QTR was created.

BTW if that would be a route then you can download the odd greyscale to 
CMYK converter here:

http://www.pigment-print.com/Quad%20QTR/Index.html


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

Interesting. What paths we follow to get good BW.

Walker


On Apr 23, 2010, at 6:19 PM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> It all recalls some memories of using my Epson 9000 with a custom quad 
> set + the Wasatch SoftRip. That was before QTR existed. Converting a 
> greyscale TIFF to a CMYK TIFF where each channel had the same content 
> the greyscale TIFF had. Taking out one channel of CMY with a zero curve 
> in the RIP so no black generation happened and applying 3 curves for the 
> remaining 5 channels to fit the grey inks. Linearisation as available 
> in the RIP per channel but not on the total partioned result. It worked 
> but what a hassle. It was nice to be there when QTR was created.
> 
> BTW if that would be a route then you can download the odd greyscale to 
> CMYK converter here:
> 
> http://www.pigment-print.com/Quad%20QTR/Index.html
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
> 
> Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
> 
> | Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
> | www.pigment-print.com |
> | ( unvollendet ) |
> 
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just wanted to get back with an update here- I spoke with Walker this
afternoon (thanks for taking the time to chat with me by the way!), and
though I'll be the first to admit that I'm still out of my depth with some
of this, I do feel like I'm getting somewhere.  I'll relay what I've done so
far, for the benefit of anyone who may be wanting to try this, and by
talking it out, hopefully it will become apparent where/why I hit a wall
this afternoon-

 

Ok, so after building and profiling my print environment, I converted an
untagged RBG gray patch file to the new CMYK profile in PS, using relative
with BPC.  I then printed it through my new environment set to Rel+BPC.
After reading the patches I inverted the A&B values of my LAB measurements,
so that a "0.51" became "-0.51" and so on.  I then saved this file as a .txt
and applied it to the QTR createICC RGB program.  I dropped the created
profile into the input profile folder for Studioprint, and as long as I went
back to my original untagged RBG gray patch file (or any RBG file), the new
QTR profile was listed as an input profile option (if I tried to use the
CMYK converted gray patches I originally printed, it was not an option since
the QTR profile is RGB).  Then I printed the untagged RBG patches, using my
new input profile, and rendering set to Rel+BPC (since that's what I used
for the chart, I will need to use that all the way through, right?)

 

This is where things get hazy.  After the next reading, some of my AB values
are indeed closer to the line (0), but some remain the same, and if I
remember correctly, some have gotten further from it.  If I repeat the
inverting step again, my next readings are much the same, though this time
some definitely have gone the wrong way.  In addition to that, my luminance
values begin to get a little hinky, and linearization seems to go.  Now the
question is what went wrong. if anything?  Did I maybe just take it too far?
Should I have left it alone after the first input profile was created, and
considered that close enough to neutral to begin tuning?  Is this evidence
of SP misbehaving with input profiles, or as Walker mentioned, perhaps
double profiling is causing a problem with that first set of patches, and
the problem is just carrying down the line.

 

So many steps. so many places to go wrong. lol

 

Even with the maddening nature of this work, I'm still really excited about
the potential.  Being able to hang a matching 60" print from my 11880 next
to one from my K7 selenium would be a marvelous thing.  Or here's something
else Walker and I discussed today- take it one step further, and be able to
"capture" for lack of a better word, the hue of an existing print and be
able to reproduce it (I'm thinking something to do with a scan, maybe a
blur, and some way to automatically find the luminance values to correspond
to your gray patches).  That would seem a unique opportunity to preserve
some of the classic silver tones, but also bring back those that are already
gone.  Artistically and aesthetically it would be fantastic, plus from the
service bureau side of things it would be so nice to actually be able to
match the new with the old. 

 

Walker mentioned creating a website where people could share LAB values for
all manner of different prints, I think that would be a fine idea indeed!

 

 

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ernst
Dinkla
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 4:20 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?

 

  

It all recalls some memories of using my Epson 9000 with a custom quad 
set + the Wasatch SoftRip. That was before QTR existed. Converting a 
greyscale TIFF to a CMYK TIFF where each channel had the same content 
the greyscale TIFF had. Taking out one channel of CMY with a zero curve 
in the RIP so no black generation happened and applying 3 curves for the 
remaining 5 channels to fit the grey inks. Linearisation as available 
in the RIP per channel but not on the total partioned result. It worked 
but what a hassle. It was nice to be there when QTR was created.

BTW if that would be a route then you can download the odd greyscale to 
CMYK converter here:

http://www.pigment- <http://www.pigment-print.com/Quad%20QTR/Index.html>
print.com/Quad%20QTR/Index.html

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

Try: http://tech. <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/>
groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

| Dinkla Grafische Techniek |
| www.pigment-print.com |
| ( unvollendet ) |





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 27, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Eric Edmondson wrote:

> This is where things get hazy.  After the next reading, some of my  
> AB values
> are indeed closer to the line (0), but some remain the same, and if I
> remember correctly, some have gotten further from it.

I've attempted iterative neutrality improvements in a number of ways,  
and that reflects the usual results. You don't state how large those  
variations are, but if they are mostly within one unit of neutral, you  
may be down to the noise level of your process.

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
CDTobie@...


  ----------



Datacolor
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes. I agree with that after thinking a bit. The drivers/dithers are not perfect and over-iterative control can produce funky results. Once you get pretty straight AB values (close to the line) then you can start toning.  :-)

All the best,
Walker

On Apr 27, 2010, at 9:46 AM, C D Tobie wrote:

> 
> On Apr 27, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Eric Edmondson wrote:
> 
> > This is where things get hazy. After the next reading, some of my 
> > AB values
> > are indeed closer to the line (0), but some remain the same, and if I
> > remember correctly, some have gotten further from it.
> 
> I've attempted iterative neutrality improvements in a number of ways, 
> and that reflects the usual results. You don't state how large those 
> variations are, but if they are mostly within one unit of neutral, you 
> may be down to the noise level of your process.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Global Product Technology Manager
> Digital Imaging & Home Theater
> CDTobie@...
> 
> ----------
> 
> Datacolor
> www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Edmondson" <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:
>...
> Ok, so after building and profiling my print environment, I converted an
> untagged RBG gray patch file to the new CMYK profile in PS, using relative
> with BPC.

I freely admit to paying too little attention to the details of this thread so maybe this is irrelevant, but this step fails to make sense to me. There is no, nor can be, any icc conversion from an unknown source space. If it is indeed untagged then a source space will be assumed, either done in Photoshop, or the RIP...
So, is a source being used by default that turns out to be useful for this workflow? Or is there perhaps a more useful tag for the intended result?
Tyler

It is my understanding that the purpose of this step is to beat SP to the punch and essentially cancel out the CMYK conversion by using the same profile it will ultimately be printed with, rather than letting the program perform an unknown conversion that could be undermining what we're trying to do.  Though I could be completely off base here... LOL  

It would seem that if I had a CMYK gray patch file, I could skip this step, since SP will allow me to set the input profile to "none" for CMYK files... though I'm sure there's some reason I couldn't do that.

 

I meant to post some results tonight, but I left my notes at the shop, so I'll post back tomorrow.  As was mentioned this morning, I may have gotten as close as I'm going to get to neutral, perhaps it's time to start toning. =)  
 


To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

From: tyler@...
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:22:55 +0000
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?

  





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Edmondson" <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:
>...
> Ok, so after building and profiling my print environment, I converted an
> untagged RBG gray patch file to the new CMYK profile in PS, using relative
> with BPC.

I freely admit to paying too little attention to the details of this thread so maybe this is irrelevant, but this step fails to make sense to me. There is no, nor can be, any icc conversion from an unknown source space. If it is indeed untagged then a source space will be assumed, either done in Photoshop, or the RIP...
So, is a source being used by default that turns out to be useful for this workflow? Or is there perhaps a more useful tag for the intended result?
Tyler




 		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the only way for there to be no SP conversion is if the file is CMYK in the first place, then do the "none" input profile setting as you mention, rather than embedded.
I'm sure Walker has good reason, he's usually 5 steps ahead of me on this stuff (or more), was just wondering...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Eric Edmondson <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:

>
> 
> It is my understanding that the purpose of this step is to beat SP to the punch and essentially cancel out the CMYK conversion by using the same profile it will ultimately be printed with, rather than letting the program perform an unknown conversion that could be undermining what we're trying to do.  Though I could be completely off base here... LOL  
> 
> It would seem that if I had a CMYK gray patch file, I could skip this step, since SP will allow me to set the input profile to "none" for CMYK files... though I'm sure there's some reason I couldn't do that.
> 
>  
> 
> I meant to post some results tonight, but I left my notes at the shop, so I'll post back tomorrow.  As was mentioned this morning, I may have gotten as close as I'm going to get to neutral, perhaps it's time to start toning. =)  
>  
> 
> 
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> From: tyler@...
> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:22:55 +0000
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Edmondson" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
> >...
> > Ok, so after building and profiling my print environment, I converted an
> > untagged RBG gray patch file to the new CMYK profile in PS, using relative
> > with BPC.
> 
> I freely admit to paying too little attention to the details of this thread so maybe this is irrelevant, but this step fails to make sense to me. There is no, nor can be, any icc conversion from an unknown source space. If it is indeed untagged then a source space will be assumed, either done in Photoshop, or the RIP...
> So, is a source being used by default that turns out to be useful for this workflow? Or is there perhaps a more useful tag for the intended result?
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  		 	   		  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Yeah he was at least that far ahead of me... lolMaybe this is a dumb question, but is it possible to create a set of CMYK gray patches for colorport or measure tool?  I mean it's not going to be as simple as 196,196,196; 203,203,203, etc. right?  How would I know what values to assign to make a neutral gray ramp?    

To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

From: tyler@...
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:21:27 +0000
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?


















 



  


    
      
      
      the only way for there to be no SP conversion is if the file is CMYK in the first place, then do the "none" input profile setting as you mention, rather than embedded.

I'm sure Walker has good reason, he's usually 5 steps ahead of me on this stuff (or more), was just wondering...

Tyler



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Eric Edmondson <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:

>

> 

> It is my understanding that the purpose of this step is to beat SP to the punch and essentially cancel out the CMYK conversion by using the same profile it will ultimately be printed with, rather than letting the program perform an unknown conversion that could be undermining what we're trying to do.  Though I could be completely off base here... LOL  

> 

> It would seem that if I had a CMYK gray patch file, I could skip this step, since SP will allow me to set the input profile to "none" for CMYK files... though I'm sure there's some reason I couldn't do that.

> 

>  

> 

> I meant to post some results tonight, but I left my notes at the shop, so I'll post back tomorrow.  As was mentioned this morning, I may have gotten as close as I'm going to get to neutral, perhaps it's time to start toning. =)  

>  

> 

> 

> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

> From: tyler@...

> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:22:55 +0000

> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?

> 

>   

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Edmondson" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:

> >...

> > Ok, so after building and profiling my print environment, I converted an

> > untagged RBG gray patch file to the new CMYK profile in PS, using relative

> > with BPC.

> 

> I freely admit to paying too little attention to the details of this thread so maybe this is irrelevant, but this step fails to make sense to me. There is no, nor can be, any icc conversion from an unknown source space. If it is indeed untagged then a source space will be assumed, either done in Photoshop, or the RIP...

> So, is a source being used by default that turns out to be useful for this workflow? Or is there perhaps a more useful tag for the intended result?

> Tyler

> 

> 

> 

> 

>  		 	   		  

> 

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>






    
     

    
    






   		 	   		  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think you can do this with Argyll. Do some google searches.

Walker


On Apr 28, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Eric Edmondson wrote:

> 
> Yeah he was at least that far ahead of me... lolMaybe this is a dumb question, but is it possible to create a set of CMYK gray patches for colorport or measure tool?  I mean it's not going to be as simple as 196,196,196; 203,203,203, etc. right?  How would I know what values to assign to make a neutral gray ramp?    
> 
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> From: tyler@tylerboley.com
> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:21:27 +0000
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
>      the only way for there to be no SP conversion is if the file is CMYK in the first place, then do the "none" input profile setting as you mention, rather than embedded.
> 
> I'm sure Walker has good reason, he's usually 5 steps ahead of me on this stuff (or more), was just wondering...
> 
> Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Eric Edmondson <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> It is my understanding that the purpose of this step is to beat SP to the punch and essentially cancel out the CMYK conversion by using the same profile it will ultimately be printed with, rather than letting the program perform an unknown conversion that could be undermining what we're trying to do.  Though I could be completely off base here... LOL  
> 
>> 
> 
>> It would seem that if I had a CMYK gray patch file, I could skip this step, since SP will allow me to set the input profile to "none" for CMYK files... though I'm sure there's some reason I couldn't do that.
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> I meant to post some results tonight, but I left my notes at the shop, so I'll post back tomorrow.  As was mentioned this morning, I may have gotten as close as I'm going to get to neutral, perhaps it's time to start toning. =)  
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> 
>> From: tyler@...
> 
>> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:22:55 +0000
> 
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Edmondson" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
> 
>>> ...
> 
>>> Ok, so after building and profiling my print environment, I converted an
> 
>>> untagged RBG gray patch file to the new CMYK profile in PS, using relative
> 
>>> with BPC.
> 
>> 
> 
>> I freely admit to paying too little attention to the details of this thread so maybe this is irrelevant, but this step fails to make sense to me. There is no, nor can be, any icc conversion from an unknown source space. If it is indeed untagged then a source space will be assumed, either done in Photoshop, or the RIP...
> 
>> So, is a source being used by default that turns out to be useful for this workflow? Or is there perhaps a more useful tag for the intended result?
> 
>> Tyler
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> 		 	   		  
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>> 
> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>> 
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>   		 	   		  
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...

My way of thinking about all this is "whatever works."  SP handles input profiles in weird ways.  PS converts and handles (assumed) working spaces (vs actual tuner input profiles) in much more consistent ways. When I was validating ColorBurst for this workflow I was converting in PS and it worked.  Whatever works.

Walker


>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>     the only way for there to be no SP conversion is if the file is CMYK in the first place, then do the "none" input profile setting as you mention, rather than embedded.
>> 
>> I'm sure Walker has good reason, he's usually 5 steps ahead of me on this stuff (or more), was just wondering...
>> 
>> Tyler
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Eric Edmondson <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> It is my understanding that the purpose of this step is to beat SP to the punch and essentially cancel out the CMYK conversion by using the same profile it will ultimately be printed with, rather than letting the program perform an unknown conversion that could be undermining what we're trying to do.  Though I could be completely off base here... LOL  
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> It would seem that if I had a CMYK gray patch file, I could skip this step, since SP will allow me to set the input profile to "none" for CMYK files... though I'm sure there's some reason I couldn't do that.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> I meant to post some results tonight, but I left my notes at the shop, so I'll post back tomorrow.  As was mentioned this morning, I may have gotten as close as I'm going to get to neutral, perhaps it's time to start toning. =)  
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> 
>>> From: tyler@...
>> 
>>> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:22:55 +0000
>> 
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Edmondson" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
>> 
>>>> ...
>> 
>>>> Ok, so after building and profiling my print environment, I converted an
>> 
>>>> untagged RBG gray patch file to the new CMYK profile in PS, using relative
>> 
>>>> with BPC.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> I freely admit to paying too little attention to the details of this thread so maybe this is irrelevant, but this step fails to make sense to me. There is no, nor can be, any icc conversion from an unknown source space. If it is indeed untagged then a source space will be assumed, either done in Photoshop, or the RIP...
>> 
>>> So, is a source being used by default that turns out to be useful for this workflow? Or is there perhaps a more useful tag for the intended result?
>> 
>>> Tyler
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 		 	   		  
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  		 	   		  
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>> 
>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> Walker Blackwell
> 802.821.4451
> www.walkerblackwell.com
> aim: greendirtblues
> wblackwell@...
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...

Eric. Can you send me your lab values from the validation target using your "neutralize" input icc? You're probably right where you need to be to start toning.

Walker

Eric Edmondson schreef:
> Yeah he was at least that far ahead of me... lolMaybe this is a dumb question, but is it possible to create a set of CMYK gray patches for colorport or measure tool?  I mean it's not going to be as simple as 196,196,196; 203,203,203, etc. right?  How would I know what values to assign to make a neutral gray ramp?    
> 
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com

There are linearisation targets in ColorPort, if you strip out the CMY 
patches you get what you want I think.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst

Try: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

|      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
|         www.pigment-print.com        |
|                 ( unvollendet )                 |

I am in agreement with you, Walker.
Craig




________________________________

From: Walker Blackwell <forums@...>
To: Walker Blackwell <forums@...>
Cc: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, April 28, 2010 12:32:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?

My way of thinking about all this is "whatever works."  SP handles input profiles in weird ways.  PS converts and handles (assumed) working spaces (vs actual tuner input profiles) in much more consistent ways. When I was validating ColorBurst for this workflow I was converting in PS and it worked.  Whatever works.

Walker


>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>    the only way for there to be no SP conversion is if the file is CMYK in the first place, then do the "none" input profile setting as you mention, rather than embedded.
>> 
>> I'm sure Walker has good reason, he's usually 5 steps ahead of me on this stuff (or more), was just wondering...
>> 
>> Tyler
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Eric Edmondson <eric_edmondson@...> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> It is my understanding that the purpose of this step is to beat SP to the punch and essentially cancel out the CMYK conversion by using the same profile it will ultimately be printed with, rather than letting the program perform an unknown conversion that could be undermining what we're trying to do.  Though I could be completely off base here... LOL  
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> It would seem that if I had a CMYK gray patch file, I could skip this step, since SP will allow me to set the input profile to "none" for CMYK files... though I'm sure there's some reason I couldn't do that.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> I meant to post some results tonight, but I left my notes at the shop, so I'll post back tomorrow.  As was mentioned this morning, I may have gotten as close as I'm going to get to neutral, perhaps it's time to start toning. =)  
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> 
>>> From: tyler@...
>> 
>>> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 17:22:55 +0000
>> 
>>> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B/W options for 11880?
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Edmondson" <eric_edmondson@> wrote:
>> 
>>>> ...
>> 
>>>> Ok, so after building and profiling my print environment, I converted an
>> 
>>>> untagged RBG gray patch file to the new CMYK profile in PS, using relative
>> 
>>>> with BPC.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> I freely admit to paying too little attention to the details of this thread so maybe this is irrelevant, but this step fails to make sense to me. There is no, nor can be, any icc conversion from an unknown source space. If it is indeed untagged then a source space will be assumed, either done in Photoshop, or the RIP...
>> 
>>> So, is a source being used by default that turns out to be useful for this workflow? Or is there perhaps a more useful tag for the intended result?
>> 
>>> Tyler
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>>                         
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>                          
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>> 
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>> 
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>> 
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>> 
>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> Walker Blackwell
> 802.821.4451
> www.walkerblackwell.com
> aim: greendirtblues
> wblackwell@...
> 

Walker Blackwell
802.821.4451
www.walkerblackwell.com
aim: greendirtblues
wblackwell@...



------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]