Digital BW, The Print

Given that I do not create my own profiles, is there any advantage to using QTR rather than the Epson ABW print driver with stock K3 inks on a 2400?  

Steve

Steve,

Depends on what look you are after. Is there anything particular that you find lacking in ABW prints?

QTR will give you much greater versatility, especially once you master creating custom profiles. But if that is not your interest, then you should be able to achieve very good results with ABW. Please note that the best results from ABW may still need you to at least linearize the settings for different papers. You may want to first master ABW and if that still does not meet your needs, you can explore other options like QTR of other inksets.

If you plan on using non-Epson papers, then QTR may be a much better option for best Dmax. Also QTR is a highly capable engine for split-toned prints.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "voranado" <kobrins@...> wrote:

>
> Given that I do not create my own profiles, is there any advantage to using QTR rather than the Epson ABW print driver with stock K3 inks on a 2400?  
> 
> Steve
>

Anyone know where can we find a good tutorial on how to use ABW  
effectively?

Thanks,

Walter
Epson R2880

On Apr 28, 2010, at 4:35 PM, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...>  
wrote:

> Steve,
>
> Depends on what look you are after. Is there anything particular  
> that you find lacking in ABW prints?
>
> QTR will give you much greater versatility, especially once you  
> master creating custom profiles. But if that is not your interest,  
> then you should be able to achieve very good results with ABW.  
> Please note that the best results from ABW may still need you to at  
> least linearize the settings for different papers. You may want to  
> first master ABW and if that still does not meet your needs, you can  
> explore other options like QTR of other inksets.
>
> If you plan on using non-Epson papers, then QTR may be a much better  
> option for best Dmax. Also QTR is a highly capable engine for split- 
> toned prints.
>
> Regards.
>
> Shilesh
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "voranado"  
> <kobrins@...> wrote:
> >
> > Given that I do not create my own profiles, is there any advantage  
> to using QTR rather than the Epson ABW print driver with stock K3  
> inks on a 2400?
> >
> > Steve
> >
>
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sounds like you are assuming you will need to be able to profile to use QTR? Not the case.
QTR is plug and play, as long as you use a paper supported for your printer, or something very similar.
I've had people printing out of QTR using the supplied curves, and supplied grey matte and grey photo profiles, in about 5 minutes.
The 2400 has good amount of papers supported. Free download and then shareware if you are happy is pretty hard to NOT try.
Advantages are-
With the vast majority of curves and curve blends you will be using a skeleton of black and light black inks, with only enough of the appropriate color inks for your chosen hue.
Higher resolution, depending on how the curves were designed, and more rational use of light inks and small dots, so less "dottiness" at close inspection.
Wide variety of hue control, in highlights, mids, and shadows independently.
Highly user customizable if you decide to go all geeky on us. Only then will you possibly need to linearize, or profile, for yourself.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "voranado" <kobrins@...> wrote:

>
> Given that I do not create my own profiles, is there any advantage to using QTR rather than the Epson ABW print driver with stock K3 inks on a 2400?  
> 
> Steve
>

Walter this might be a good start.

 

http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/printworkflow.html

 

Best, Phil

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Walter Oliver
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 1:43 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Low tech question

 

  

Anyone know where can we find a good tutorial on how to use ABW 
effectively?

Thanks,

Walter
Epson R2880




 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Walter,

Peruse this first:

http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

There are 4 things to using ABW, and each can be sensitive to the paper you use; so they will need to be repeated for each paper of choice.

(1) Color hue. This is the easiest. Just print using ABW by selecting the pre-defined or make your own choice with the color wheel. You should find a look you want with the color wheel.
(2) I have heard that using the "dark" setting gives the most linear response for a gray gamma 2.2 image file. This may become moot if you are using a non-Epson paper and linearize later.
(3) Getting the best Dmax. This entails getting the correct K ink limits on each paper.
(4) Linearize the L response between paper white and Dmax.

If you have a means of measuring density, this whole process becomes really simple. If you are not inclined to follow this more "measured" path, then the link above should get you very close on most papers that Clayton has kindly reported on.

There are also other tutorials and treatesies online on the use of ABW. Try googling "Eric Chan ABW".

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walter Oliver <wso@...> wrote:

>
> Anyone know where can we find a good tutorial on how to use ABW  
> effectively?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Walter
> Epson R2880
> 
> On Apr 28, 2010, at 4:35 PM, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> > Steve,
> >
> > Depends on what look you are after. Is there anything particular  
> > that you find lacking in ABW prints?
> >
> > QTR will give you much greater versatility, especially once you  
> > master creating custom profiles. But if that is not your interest,  
> > then you should be able to achieve very good results with ABW.  
> > Please note that the best results from ABW may still need you to at  
> > least linearize the settings for different papers. You may want to  
> > first master ABW and if that still does not meet your needs, you can  
> > explore other options like QTR of other inksets.
> >
> > If you plan on using non-Epson papers, then QTR may be a much better  
> > option for best Dmax. Also QTR is a highly capable engine for split- 
> > toned prints.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > Shilesh
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "voranado"  
> > <kobrins@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Given that I do not create my own profiles, is there any advantage  
> > to using QTR rather than the Epson ABW print driver with stock K3  
> > inks on a 2400?
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Thanks Tyler.  I have used QTR in the past with a number of inks, but printing irregularly settled on the 2400 with K3.  It sounds like it is worth experimenting with QTR and the K3 inks.  I am generally happy with abw and still have a lot to learn, but I always wonder...

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tboleyyh" <tyler@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you are assuming you will need to be able to profile to use QTR? Not the case.
> QTR is plug and play, as long as you use a paper supported for your printer, or something very similar.
> I've had people printing out of QTR using the supplied curves, and supplied grey matte and grey photo profiles, in about 5 minutes.
> The 2400 has good amount of papers supported. Free download and then shareware if you are happy is pretty hard to NOT try.
> Advantages are-
> With the vast majority of curves and curve blends you will be using a skeleton of black and light black inks, with only enough of the appropriate color inks for your chosen hue.
> Higher resolution, depending on how the curves were designed, and more rational use of light inks and small dots, so less "dottiness" at close inspection.
> Wide variety of hue control, in highlights, mids, and shadows independently.
> Highly user customizable if you decide to go all geeky on us. Only then will you possibly need to linearize, or profile, for yourself.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "voranado" <kobrins@> wrote:
> >
> > Given that I do not create my own profiles, is there any advantage to using QTR rather than the Epson ABW print driver with stock K3 inks on a 2400?  
> > 
> > Steve
> >
>

Thanks Shilesh,

I still have a lot to learn with ABW.  Don't I need a spectrometer to linearize papers?

Steve
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:

>
> Steve,
> 
> Depends on what look you are after. Is there anything particular that you find lacking in ABW prints?
> 
> QTR will give you much greater versatility, especially once you master creating custom profiles. But if that is not your interest, then you should be able to achieve very good results with ABW. Please note that the best results from ABW may still need you to at least linearize the settings for different papers. You may want to first master ABW and if that still does not meet your needs, you can explore other options like QTR of other inksets.
> 
> If you plan on using non-Epson papers, then QTR may be a much better option for best Dmax. Also QTR is a highly capable engine for split-toned prints.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "voranado" <kobrins@> wrote:
> >
> > Given that I do not create my own profiles, is there any advantage to using QTR rather than the Epson ABW print driver with stock K3 inks on a 2400?  
> > 
> > Steve
> >
>

Thanks for pointinge in the right, direction, gentlemen.

After I get a look at those two sites, I'll come back and look at what  
"linearize" means!

Walter

On Apr 28, 2010, at 5:14 PM, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...>  
wrote:

> Walter,
>
> Peruse this first:
>
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>
> There are 4 things to using ABW, and each can be sensitive to the  
> paper you use; so they will need to be repeated for each paper of  
> choice.
>
> (1) Color hue. This is the easiest. Just print using ABW by  
> selecting the pre-defined or make your own choice with the color  
> wheel. You should find a look you want with the color wheel.
> (2) I have heard that using the "dark" setting gives the most linear  
> response for a gray gamma 2.2 image file. This may become moot if  
> you are using a non-Epson paper and linearize later.
> (3) Getting the best Dmax. This entails getting the correct K ink  
> limits on each paper.
> (4) Linearize the L response between paper white and Dmax.
>
> If you have a means of measuring density, this whole process becomes  
> really simple. If you are not inclined to follow this more  
> "measured" path, then the link above should get you very close on  
> most papers that Clayton has kindly reported on.
>
> There are also other tutorials and treatesies online on the use of  
> ABW. Try googling "Eric Chan ABW".
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walter Oliver  
> <wso@...> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone know where can we find a good tutorial on how to use ABW
> > effectively?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Walter
> > Epson R2880
> >
> > On Apr 28, 2010, at 4:35 PM, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > Depends on what look you are after. Is there anything particular
> > > that you find lacking in ABW prints?
> > >
> > > QTR will give you much greater versatility, especially once you
> > > master creating custom profiles. But if that is not your interest,
> > > then you should be able to achieve very good results with ABW.
> > > Please note that the best results from ABW may still need you to  
> at
> > > least linearize the settings for different papers. You may want to
> > > first master ABW and if that still does not meet your needs, you  
> can
> > > explore other options like QTR of other inksets.
> > >
> > > If you plan on using non-Epson papers, then QTR may be a much  
> better
> > > option for best Dmax. Also QTR is a highly capable engine for  
> split-
> > > toned prints.
> > >
> > > Regards.
> > >
> > > Shilesh
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "voranado"
> > > <kobrins@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Given that I do not create my own profiles, is there any  
> advantage
> > > to using QTR rather than the Epson ABW print driver with stock K3
> > > inks on a 2400?
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

.....
> > Highly user customizable if you decide to go all geeky on us. Only then will you possibly need to linearize, or profile, for yourself.
> > Tyler
> > 

Oh, please, does this finally answer a question I have had for a long time that keeps me from wanting to use QTR -- *** does "linearize" mean the same thing as "create your own profile using MeasureTool and Create_icc.exe" *** ????? If not, what does it mean?

I find the available documentation for QTR, once you want to go beyond using built-in curves, rather impenetrable; undefined terms are part of the problem.

Thank you,

  - susan

Susan,

I agree. I wish there were some of tutorial and/or glossary available here. I've looked at the Files menu here but it's rather sparse and a bit dated. I've stuck to using a very basic setup for now... 3 black cartridges (using Eboni ink by MIS), QTR with the profiles Paul has developed, and one or two papers. Works well for me... but I probably should branch out some day.

Paul

> Oh, please, does this finally answer a question I have had for a long time that keeps me from wanting to use QTR -- *** does "linearize" mean the same thing as "create your own profile using MeasureTool and Create_icc.exe" *** ????? If not, what does it mean?
> 
> I find the available documentation for QTR, once you want to go beyond using built-in curves, rather impenetrable; undefined terms are part of the problem.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
>   - susan
>

So firstly you are better off asking straight QTR questions over on the QTR
forum.... more people to help you and if you follow that forum postings you
will learn a lot about QTR.

Secondly there is actually quite a lot of info around for example
http://www.diallophotography.com/pdfs/QTRworkflow.pdf

And Paul Roark's web site has tons of info as well.

The standard QTR tutorial while dated, is also still relevant.

Yes there is a terminology learning curve, but all the info is actually
available in one place or another for the next step up the ladder - making
QTR curves with QTR.

Mike

On 1 May 2010 16:31, Paul <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

>
>
> Susan,
>
> I agree. I wish there were some of tutorial and/or glossary available here.
> I've looked at the Files menu here but it's rather sparse and a bit dated.
> I've stuck to using a very basic setup for now... 3 black cartridges (using
> Eboni ink by MIS), QTR with the profiles Paul has developed, and one or two
> papers. Works well for me... but I probably should branch out some day.
>
> Paul
>
> > Oh, please, does this finally answer a question I have had for a long
> time that keeps me from wanting to use QTR -- *** does "linearize" mean the
> same thing as "create your own profile using MeasureTool and Create_icc.exe"
> *** ????? If not, what does it mean?
> >
> > I find the available documentation for QTR, once you want to go beyond
> using built-in curves, rather impenetrable; undefined terms are part of the
> problem.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > - susan
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the link to that QTR workflow pdf, Mike, I've printed it out and am studying it. That's a new source of information for me!

Regards,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:

>
> So firstly you are better off asking straight QTR questions over on the QTR
> forum.... more people to help you and if you follow that forum postings you
> will learn a lot about QTR.
> 
> Secondly there is actually quite a lot of info around for example
> http://www.diallophotography.com/pdfs/QTRworkflow.pdf

--
Phil

---- Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote: 

> So firstly you are better off asking straight QTR questions over on the QTR
> forum.... more people to help you and if you follow that forum postings you
> will learn a lot about QTR.
> 
> Secondly there is actually quite a lot of info around for example
> http://www.diallophotography.com/pdfs/QTRworkflow.pdf
> 
> And Paul Roark's web site has tons of info as well.
> 
> The standard QTR tutorial while dated, is also still relevant.
> 
> Yes there is a terminology learning curve, but all the info is actually
> available in one place or another for the next step up the ladder - making
> QTR curves with QTR.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On 1 May 2010 16:31, Paul <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Susan,
> >
> > I agree. I wish there were some of tutorial and/or glossary available here.
> > I've looked at the Files menu here but it's rather sparse and a bit dated.
> > I've stuck to using a very basic setup for now... 3 black cartridges (using
> > Eboni ink by MIS), QTR with the profiles Paul has developed, and one or two
> > papers. Works well for me... but I probably should branch out some day.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > > Oh, please, does this finally answer a question I have had for a long
> > time that keeps me from wanting to use QTR -- *** does "linearize" mean the
> > same thing as "create your own profile using MeasureTool and Create_icc.exe"
> > *** ????? If not, what does it mean?
> > >
> > > I find the available documentation for QTR, once you want to go beyond
> > using built-in curves, rather impenetrable; undefined terms are part of the
> > problem.
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > >
> > > - susan
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
>

> ... 
> And Paul Roark's web site has tons of info as well.

(Probably too much.)

I usually have a paper/handout for the Golden Trout photo workshop that goes over workflows as well as the inks I'm using.

The 2009 version is at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf 
On page 3 I outline the basic workflow options.  I start with the Epson driver and then the Epson driver with ICCs made with QTR's "Create ICC."

On page 6 I get into making QTR profiles.  Black only is the easiest, so I start with that.  Then I get into partitioning curves.

It might be something that would help.  Beyond the easy, basic approach, there are, of course, refinements that are probably best left until one has a good grasp of the basics.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I've asked, and asked, also in the QTR forum and I don't know how many other places, but no one answers a simple question - what do you mean by "linearize"? - in a simple way. 

Thank you all for the how-to references and I will read them, but could you get me started by providing a dictionary definition of "linearize"? Not a how-to, just a dictionary definition.

Thanks,

  - susan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:

>
> So firstly you are better off asking straight QTR questions over on the QTR
> forum.... more people to help you and if you follow that forum postings you
> will learn a lot about QTR.
> 
> Secondly there is actually quite a lot of info around for example
> http://www.diallophotography.com/pdfs/QTRworkflow.pdf
> 
> And Paul Roark's web site has tons of info as well.
> 
> The standard QTR tutorial while dated, is also still relevant.
> 
> Yes there is a terminology learning curve, but all the info is actually
> available in one place or another for the next step up the ladder - making
> QTR curves with QTR.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On 1 May 2010 16:31, Paul <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Susan,
> >
> > I agree. I wish there were some of tutorial and/or glossary available here.
> > I've looked at the Files menu here but it's rather sparse and a bit dated.
> > I've stuck to using a very basic setup for now... 3 black cartridges (using
> > Eboni ink by MIS), QTR with the profiles Paul has developed, and one or two
> > papers. Works well for me... but I probably should branch out some day.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > > Oh, please, does this finally answer a question I have had for a long
> > time that keeps me from wanting to use QTR -- *** does "linearize" mean the
> > same thing as "create your own profile using MeasureTool and Create_icc.exe"
> > *** ????? If not, what does it mean?
> > >
> > > I find the available documentation for QTR, once you want to go beyond
> > using built-in curves, rather impenetrable; undefined terms are part of the
> > problem.
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > >
> > > - susan
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> I've asked, and asked, also in the QTR forum and I don't know how many 
> other places, but no one answers a simple question - what do you mean by 
> "linearize"? - in a simple way.

The problem may be that the word 'linearize' is used in different ways by 
different people, just as 'metamerism' is commonly used to mean different 
things.

bob Frost

--------------------------------------------------
From: "slcphoto73" <slchapin41@...>

Susan,

So the answer to your question;

> > > Oh, please, does this finally answer a question I have had for a long
> > time that keeps me from wanting to use QTR -- *** does "linearize" mean
the
> > same thing as "create your own profile using MeasureTool and
Create_icc.exe"
> > *** ????? If not, what does it mean?

Yes. Linearise just means to tweak data so that it's linear.
You do that inside QTR for a QTR curves . You can also do that with Create
ICC.

Not sure how that helps you though.

Mike


On 2 May 2010 16:55, slcphoto73 <slchapin41@...> wrote:

>
>
> I've asked, and asked, also in the QTR forum and I don't know how many
> other places, but no one answers a simple question - what do you mean by
> "linearize"? - in a simple way.
>
> Thank you all for the how-to references and I will read them, but could you
> get me started by providing a dictionary definition of "linearize"? Not a
> how-to, just a dictionary definition.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - susan
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Michael King <drmrking@...> wrote:
> >
> > So firstly you are better off asking straight QTR questions over on the
> QTR
> > forum.... more people to help you and if you follow that forum postings
> you
> > will learn a lot about QTR.
> >
> > Secondly there is actually quite a lot of info around for example
> > http://www.diallophotography.com/pdfs/QTRworkflow.pdf
>
> >
> > And Paul Roark's web site has tons of info as well.
> >
> > The standard QTR tutorial while dated, is also still relevant.
> >
> > Yes there is a terminology learning curve, but all the info is actually
> > available in one place or another for the next step up the ladder -
> making
> > QTR curves with QTR.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On 1 May 2010 16:31, Paul <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Susan,
> > >
> > > I agree. I wish there were some of tutorial and/or glossary available
> here.
> > > I've looked at the Files menu here but it's rather sparse and a bit
> dated.
> > > I've stuck to using a very basic setup for now... 3 black cartridges
> (using
> > > Eboni ink by MIS), QTR with the profiles Paul has developed, and one or
> two
> > > papers. Works well for me... but I probably should branch out some day.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > > Oh, please, does this finally answer a question I have had for a long
> > > time that keeps me from wanting to use QTR -- *** does "linearize" mean
> the
> > > same thing as "create your own profile using MeasureTool and
> Create_icc.exe"
> > > *** ????? If not, what does it mean?
> > > >
> > > > I find the available documentation for QTR, once you want to go
> beyond
> > > using built-in curves, rather impenetrable; undefined terms are part of
> the
> > > problem.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > >
> > > > - susan
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Susan:

To Linearize: To match the output of a device to the imput values.

  ie in Offset printing, if you can duplicate the screen (percentage)  
values in a file on a press, you can say the press output is linearized.

Inkjets are a whole other animal, but I think this gives you the idea.

Les Otterbein


On May 2, 2010, at 8:55 AM, slcphoto73 wrote:

> I've asked, and asked, also in the QTR forum and I don't know how  
> many other places, but no one answers a simple question - what do  
> you mean by "linearize"? - in a simple way.
>
> Thank you all for the how-to references and I will read them, but  
> could you get me started by providing a dictionary definition of  
> "linearize"? Not a how-to, just a dictionary definition.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - susan

Leslie Otterbein

photo-art-les.com
web.me.com/lotterbein

"slcphoto73" <slchapin41@...> wrote:
>
>... - what do you mean by "linearize"? - in a simple way. 
> 

See the graph on page 11 of http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf

We use 21-step (usually) test files to print test strips and then measure the Lab L or density values of the test strips.  The test patches of the test file are evenly spaced.  We'd like the values of the test strip to also be even or coincide with the distribution that is being displayed on our monitors.  Before "linearization" of a profile -- the last step in making one -- the output may be such that the values are not evenly spaced.

You can see from the graphs on page 11 that QTR uses a literally linear -- straight line -- relationship between the input values and the output (print Lab L) values.  

When making a QTR profile, the last step is to print a 21-step test strip with the pre-linearized profile.  The print from that is read with a spectrophotometer (or flatbed scanner using a calibration system) and the results of that measurement are fed back into QTR.  QTR then adjusts the profile such that the output from the linearized profile will be the straight line shown on page 11.

We usually use working spaces that are not characterized by literally linear relationships between the file values and monitor view or print values.  Gray Gamma 2.2 is the gray working space that is a subset of Adobe RGB, and is probably the most popular working space.  You can see from the graph that it is characterized by compressed shadows.

Because we all use color managed systems (which are best when calibrated), we're always in some working space, whether we know it or not.  Even if the file is "un-tagged" the view on the monitor is "color managed" and is displaying an image that reflects some working space input-output relationship.  

We'd like our prints to match what we see on the monitor.  "Linearization" is commonly used to describe the step we take to achieve this even if the final relationship is not technically linear.

For example, when we use QTR's "Create ICC" to make ICCs our "linearization" step does not result in a literally linear output.  An ICC in a color managed system reads the working space you're using and matches the print output to that space, which usually contains non-linear segments, like the compressed shadow values of the Gray Gamma 2.2 space.  Again, however, a key part of making the ICC is to have a feedback loop where the ICC "learns" the characteristics of the printer and inkset, and is then able to adjust for that to make the "linearized" output match the monitor view, in this case no matter what gray working space you're using.

When I'm using Gray Gamma 2.2 working space and printing with QTR, the output from QTR will not match the view on the monitor.  So, I have to adjust for that.  The QTR download package has some ICCs that can be used to tag the files so that the view on the monitor will match the output.  (I use another method -- a Photoshop curve -- to accomplish that.)  Even though QTR's literally linear output does not match my working space, having a "linearized" QTR profile is critical to allowing me (with my adjustment curve method) to consistently have prints that match my monitor rather well.


Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Reminds me of the argument between the two logicians--one of whom, I believe,  was an egg....

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."                 Through the Looking Glass.




On May 2, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Bob Frost wrote:

> > I've asked, and asked, also in the QTR forum and I don't know how many 
> > other places, but no one answers a simple question - what do you mean by 
> > "linearize"? - in a simple way.
> 
> The problem may be that the word 'linearize' is used in different ways by 
> different people, just as 'metamerism' is commonly used to mean different 
> things.
> 
> bob Frost
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "slcphoto73" <slchapin41@...>
> 
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

 
> The 2009 version is at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf 
> On page 3 I outline the basic workflow options.  I start with the Epson driver and then the Epson driver with ICCs made with QTR's "Create ICC."

I certainly don't want to sound picky but I looked at the pdf at that link above and it's dated 2-09. I downloaded a pdf from what must have been on your website some time back (can't remember when, exactly) but mine has the exact same title and is dated 6-21-09. So... which one is now current? It may be I'm reading something wrong here... 

Paul

"Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> ...
>  
> > ... http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf 


> ... it's dated 2-09. ...

It's a typo -- wrong year.  Feb. 2010 is the last edit.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

On 02/05/10 2:41 PM, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> Gray 
> Gamma 2.2 is the gray working space that is a subset of Adobe RGB, and is
> probably the most popular working space.

Just to ensure I have this right, Gray Gamma 2.2 is also the gray working
space used within sRGB, correct?

Terry.

>>Just to ensure I have this right, Gray Gamma 2.2 is also the gray working
space used within sRGB, correct?

Very close, but not identical...

C. David Tobie
Global Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging and Home Theater
Datacolor inc. 
cdtobie@...
www.datacolor.com

On May 2, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Terry Ritz <t.ritz@...> wrote:

> Just to ensure I have this right, Gray Gamma 2.2 is also the gray working
> space used within sRGB, correct?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan,

I will attempt the most simple explanation:

(1) The whitest that can be achieved in a print is bare paper; where there is no ink at all. This is known as "paper white"
(2) The darkest that any paper/ink combination can achive is "maximum density" also commonly called "Dmax".
(3) Density is a measure of how dark dark something is. Density can be measured by any number of instruments.
(4) You now have "paper white" and "Dmax" at the two extreme ends of the density range.
(5) When you print, you want to make sure that the grays between these two end are well-behaved. The image in Photoshop will have pixels going from the brightest to the darkest. This progression of brightness to darkness in the image file should be accurately (linearly) represented in the print you make. When you have achived that, you have essentially a "linear" work flow.

So why do we have to linearize? To get to this requires a little complex understanding, but not very complex.

(6) Most inkjet papers have a density of paper white close to zero (range of 0.02 to 0.06 is common; almost zero for most purposes)
(7) Dmax is dependent much more strongly on the paper AND the ink. I am sure you know that glossy type (glossy, luster, etc papers that use PK ink) have much greater "blackness" or Dmax than matte papers that use MK inks.
(8) Suppose you have a pure gray file in Photoshop, somewhere between pure white and pure black (say 50%). Now you print this file on 2 different papers through identical printer settings. If you then measure the print densities on these papers, it is common that the measurement will be different. So what's up with that? Well, as I said earlier that Dmax is dependent on the paper/ink combo. The same is true of ALL densities greater than zero. Each paper reacts differently to ink being layed down on it, and shows different densities.
(8) When you use Epson papers, on Epson printer, Epson ink, Epson driver, the variability paper-to-paper has been taken care of in the paper selection. If you use a third party paper, all bets are off. There is no guarantee that this paper will behave (linear) the same as the equivalent Epson paper.
(9) Hence the need to linearize for each paper.
(10) To make matters more difficult (not more complex, just more difficult), even the same ink and paper could have batch-to-batch variability, requiring tweaks to "linearization."

Does this make sense? Please ask if you need more information, or need any clarification. As you can imagine, I have only skimmed the surface. The rest as they say "the devil is in the details." It is really not that difficult to grasp, but you have go about it in small steps.

As a teaser: you can two different papers, each with identical paper white and Dmax, but each will still require unique linearizing. Think about that. That is when things get interesting.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "slcphoto73" <slchapin41@...> wrote:

>
> I've asked, and asked, also in the QTR forum and I don't know how many other places, but no one answers a simple question - what do you mean by "linearize"? - in a simple way. 
> 
> Thank you all for the how-to references and I will read them, but could you get me started by providing a dictionary definition of "linearize"? Not a how-to, just a dictionary definition.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
>   - susan
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael King <drmrking@> wrote:
> >
> > So firstly you are better off asking straight QTR questions over on the QTR
> > forum.... more people to help you and if you follow that forum postings you
> > will learn a lot about QTR.
> > 
> > Secondly there is actually quite a lot of info around for example
> > http://www.diallophotography.com/pdfs/QTRworkflow.pdf
> > 
> > And Paul Roark's web site has tons of info as well.
> > 
> > The standard QTR tutorial while dated, is also still relevant.
> > 
> > Yes there is a terminology learning curve, but all the info is actually
> > available in one place or another for the next step up the ladder - making
> > QTR curves with QTR.
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> > On 1 May 2010 16:31, Paul <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > > Susan,
> > >
> > > I agree. I wish there were some of tutorial and/or glossary available here.
> > > I've looked at the Files menu here but it's rather sparse and a bit dated.
> > > I've stuck to using a very basic setup for now... 3 black cartridges (using
> > > Eboni ink by MIS), QTR with the profiles Paul has developed, and one or two
> > > papers. Works well for me... but I probably should branch out some day.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > > Oh, please, does this finally answer a question I have had for a long
> > > time that keeps me from wanting to use QTR -- *** does "linearize" mean the
> > > same thing as "create your own profile using MeasureTool and Create_icc.exe"
> > > *** ????? If not, what does it mean?
> > > >
> > > > I find the available documentation for QTR, once you want to go beyond
> > > using built-in curves, rather impenetrable; undefined terms are part of the
> > > problem.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you,
> > > >
> > > > - susan
> > > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

> To Linearize: To match the output of a device to the imput values.
> 
>  ie in Offset printing, if you can duplicate the screen (percentage)  
> values in a file on a press, you can say the press output is linearized.

See what I mean? This use of 'linearize' actually means calibrate!

Bob Frost.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Leslie Otterbein" <lotterbein@...>

> We'd like our prints to match what we see on the monitor.  "Linearization" 
> is commonly used to describe the step we take to achieve this even if the 
> final relationship is not technically linear.

Another example where 'calibrate' would be the more accurate description, 
not 'linearize'.

Bob F.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...>

>>Another example where 'calibrate' would be the more accurate description,
not 'linearize'.

Not really, linearization is just a subset of calibration and is the correct
term for this activitiy.
I calibrate my monitor and my printer to give a linear response to an L*
input - that is linearization.

Mike

On 3 May 2010 11:24, Bob Frost <bobfrost@...> wrote:

>
>
> > We'd like our prints to match what we see on the monitor. "Linearization"
>
> > is commonly used to describe the step we take to achieve this even if the
>
> > final relationship is not technically linear.
>
> Another example where 'calibrate' would be the more accurate description,
> not 'linearize'.
>
> Bob F.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "pr_roark" <roark.paul@... <roark.paul%40gmail.com>>
>
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:
>
> "Paul" <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >
> > ...
> >  
> > > ... http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eb1400.pdf 
> 
> 
> > ... it's dated 2-09. ...
> 
> It's a typo -- wrong year.  Feb. 2010 is the last edit.

Thanks, Paul... I'll print it out and add it to my notebook.

Paul

> Not really, linearization is just a subset of calibration and is the 
> correct
> term for this activitiy.

Linearization may have nothing whatsoever to do with printers or 
calibration! I can linearize a curve in a graph, for example.

> I calibrate my monitor and my printer to give a linear response to an L*
> input - that is linearization.

That would seem a sensible use of the word, but if you are not making the 
response linear, it is not linearization, just calibration.

bob F
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael King" <drmrking@...>

To calibrate, I was always told, is to measure and adjust the accuracy of an instrument against a standard. To linearize, in my understanding, is to plot output values against input values so that the output function is orderly and reliable.  To differentiate a bit more,   the first is a way of establishing validity, i.e.--is the device (and its operator) accurately measuring what it is intended to measure. The latter has more to do with reliability, i.e.--will repeated outputs be the same for the same given input. That said, the real value of all of this to me is in providing operational definitions of the steps you perform in doing your work: the procedures, measurement methods, materials and equipment you use to get a specific result.  

On May 3, 2010, at 9:16 AM, Bob Frost wrote:

>> Not really, linearization is just a subset of calibration and is the 
>> correct
>> term for this activitiy.
> 
> Linearization may have nothing whatsoever to do with printers or 
> calibration! I can linearize a curve in a graph, for example.
> 
>> I calibrate my monitor and my printer to give a linear response to an L*
>> input - that is linearization.
> 
> That would seem a sensible use of the word, but if you are not making the 
> response linear, it is not linearization, just calibration.
> 
> bob F
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Michael King" <drmrking@...>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
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