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2011-11-26 by tda7000
I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and ferric chloride... But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, or the cupric chloride? Or anything else for that matter?
2011-11-26 by Leon Heller
On 26/11/2011 12:02, tda7000 wrote: > I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and ferric > chloride... > > But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, or the > cupric chloride? > I used to use a soft brush, until the ferric chloride dissolved the metal holding the hairs. HCl/H2O2 is very fast anyway, but it could probably be useful for CuCl2. Leon -- Leon Heller G1HSM
2011-11-26 by DaveC
>... >HCl/H2O2 is very fast anyway, but it could probably be useful for CuCl2. > >Leon -=-=-=- I found it not so fast. I etched a 5" x 10" 1-sided board (consisting of several duplicate small circuits) and it took almost an hour. I started with a fresh batch, just enough etchant to cover the board but added more as time dragged on. Maybe my mix is wrong? I'm using 15 percent hcl (muriatic acid) and 3 percent h2o2 at a mix of 1:1. What mix are you using? Thanks, Dave
2011-11-26 by Bob Butcher
I think it would work well. The idea behind a sponge or brush is to remove the thin layer of etched material and replace the solution at the surface with fresh etchant. This speeds the etching, and is the same idea as in commercial operations where the etchant is often sprayed onto the board to do the same thing. Bob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-11-26 by Leon Heller
On 26/11/2011 18:00, DaveC wrote: > >... > >HCl/H2O2 is very fast anyway, but it could probably be useful for CuCl2. > > > >Leon > > -=-=-=- > > I found it not so fast. I etched a 5" x 10" 1-sided board (consisting > of several duplicate small circuits) and it took almost an hour. I > started with a fresh batch, just enough etchant to cover the board > but added more as time dragged on. > > Maybe my mix is wrong? I'm using 15 percent hcl (muriatic acid) and 3 > percent h2o2 at a mix of 1:1. > > What mix are you using? It was a long time ago, I can't remember. IT would have been 30% HCl, because that is what I have available. It only took about 30 seconds, though. Leon -- Leon Heller G1HSM
2011-11-26 by leeleduc
I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room temperature. Works very well for me. I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was too fast and hot to control easily. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@...> wrote:
> > I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and ferric chloride... > > But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, or the cupric chloride? > > Or anything else for that matter? >
2011-11-26 by tda7000
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Leon Heller <leon355@...> wrote: > > On 26/11/2011 18:00, DaveC wrote: > > >... > > >HCl/H2O2 is very fast anyway, but it could probably be useful for CuCl2. > > > > > >Leon > > > > -=-=-=- > > > > I found it not so fast. I etched a 5" x 10" 1-sided board (consisting > > of several duplicate small circuits) and it took almost an hour. I > > started with a fresh batch, just enough etchant to cover the board > > but added more as time dragged on. > > > > Maybe my mix is wrong? I'm using 15 percent hcl (muriatic acid) and 3 > > percent h2o2 at a mix of 1:1. > > > > What mix are you using? > > It was a long time ago, I can't remember. IT would have been 30% HCl, > because that is what I have available. It only took about 30 seconds, > though. > > Leon > -- > Leon Heller > G1HSM > Could be 15% HCl is too low, and maybe you should have a 1:2 ratio My HCl says "383g/litre" - would that mean 38%?
2011-11-26 by tda7000
Sounds good, I think I will try that. Like the idea of a foam brush, should be easier to use than just a kitchen sponge and less messy. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@...> wrote:
> > I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room temperature. Works very well for me. > > I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and ferric chloride... > > > > But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, or the cupric chloride? > > > > Or anything else for that matter? > > >
2011-11-27 by leeleduc
One thing I should mention. I keep a bowl with about 1 quart of water and 1/4 cup of baking soda dissolved in it. When I'm done, I toss the foam brush and any tools I've used into the bowl to neutralize any acid on them. I do the same with the PCB, quick dip in the bowl and a quick rinse under the the tap and I'm good to go. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@...> wrote:
> > Sounds good, I think I will try that. Like the idea of a foam brush, should be easier to use than just a kitchen sponge and less messy. > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@> wrote: > > > > I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room temperature. Works very well for me. > > > > I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > > > I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and ferric chloride... > > > > > > But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, or the cupric chloride? > > > > > > Or anything else for that matter? > > > > > >
2011-11-27 by tda7000
Thanks - I guess then that just a water rinse isn't good enough? Also, do you re-use the baking soda mixture or make a new lot each time? --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > One thing I should mention. I keep a bowl with about 1 quart of water and 1/4 cup of baking soda dissolved in it. When I'm done, I toss the foam brush and any tools I've used into the bowl to neutralize any acid on them. I do the same with the PCB, quick dip in the bowl and a quick rinse under the the tap and I'm good to go. > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > Sounds good, I think I will try that. Like the idea of a foam brush, should be easier to use than just a kitchen sponge and less messy. > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@> wrote: > > > > > > I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room temperature. Works very well for me. > > > > > > I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and ferric chloride... > > > > > > > > But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, or the cupric chloride? > > > > > > > > Or anything else for that matter? > > > > > > > > > >
2011-11-27 by Roland Harriston
Sometimes, I am truly amazed! A pound box of Arm and Hammer Baking soda costs about a dollar-fifty in any supermarket in the USA. Cheaper at WalMart. If you live in the high altitudes of Nepal or Tibet, and you have to ride your yak down a mountainside to buy a box, then you might think about saving the cost of an ounce of bicarb. Sorry.........I just could not resist. Roland F. Harriston, P.D. ******************* tda7000 wrote: > > > Thanks - I guess then that just a water rinse isn't good enough? > Also, do you re-use the baking soda mixture or make a new lot each time? > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing I should mention. I keep a bowl with about 1 quart of > water and 1/4 cup of baking soda dissolved in it. When I'm done, I > toss the foam brush and any tools I've used into the bowl to > neutralize any acid on them. I do the same with the PCB, quick dip in > the bowl and a quick rinse under the the tap and I'm good to go. > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > > > Sounds good, I think I will try that. Like the idea of a foam > brush, should be easier to use than just a kitchen sponge and less messy. > > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in > about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just > enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly > brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room temperature. > Works very well for me. > > > > > > > > I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction > was too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and > ferric chloride... > > > > > > > > > > But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 > solution, or the cupric chloride? > > > > > > > > > > Or anything else for that matter? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-11-27 by tda7000
No worries, I can understand your point of view. However having never actually purchased any I had no idea of the price, nor do I live in USA and in my country (New Zealand) things can be a bit of a ripoff. For example, You can buy this (almost 1 litre) of hydrogen peroxide for $2-3 (http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/#step1) but it costs me $3.50 just for 100ml (about 10 times the price!) No local shop sells more than 100ml bottles either, you can special order larger ones but the price is even worse for some reason. (have they not heard of bulk discounts?) Take the HCl too, according to that instructable, "The acid I got is 31.45% (or 10M) and should run around $5 per gallon" Google tells me 1 US gallon = 3.7 litres, yet 1 litre of HCl here is $18. That would make 3.7 litres around $60! You don't want to know the price of liquid tin crystals! (nobody sells the liquid itself)- not that I buy them, of course. Some cheap flux and a soldering iron is what I do in the way of tinning. I don't know if the prices for your chemicals are that cheap everywhere in USA, so I'm sorry if I am wrong there, but in comparison they do not seem very cheap here. However a quick look online suggests the baking soda IS pretty cheap, so I guess that part wouldn't be too bad... thanks for the advice, I guess once you used it you couldn't use it again anyway. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Roland Harriston <rolohar@...> wrote:
> > Sometimes, I am truly amazed! > > A pound box of Arm and Hammer Baking soda costs about a dollar-fifty in > any supermarket in the USA. > Cheaper at WalMart. > > If you live in the high altitudes of Nepal or Tibet, and you have to > ride your yak down a mountainside to buy a box, then you might think > about saving > the cost of an ounce of bicarb. > > Sorry.........I just could not resist. > > Roland F. Harriston, P.D. > ******************* > > tda7000 wrote: > > > > > > Thanks - I guess then that just a water rinse isn't good enough? > > Also, do you re-use the baking soda mixture or make a new lot each time? > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing I should mention. I keep a bowl with about 1 quart of > > water and 1/4 cup of baking soda dissolved in it. When I'm done, I > > toss the foam brush and any tools I've used into the bowl to > > neutralize any acid on them. I do the same with the PCB, quick dip in > > the bowl and a quick rinse under the the tap and I'm good to go. > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Sounds good, I think I will try that. Like the idea of a foam > > brush, should be easier to use than just a kitchen sponge and less messy. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in > > about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just > > enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly > > brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room temperature. > > Works very well for me. > > > > > > > > > > I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction > > was too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and > > ferric chloride... > > > > > > > > > > > > But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 > > solution, or the cupric chloride? > > > > > > > > > > > > Or anything else for that matter? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2011-11-27 by DaveC
What strength hcl are you using? The ratio is easily understood, but it all depends on the strengths. (I see you use 3 percent h2o2.) Thanks Dave -=-=-=-
>I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in >about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just >enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly >brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room >temperature. Works very well for me. > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was >too fast and hot to control easily. > > > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@...> wrote: >> >> I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and >>ferric chloride... >> >> But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, >>or the cupric chloride? >> > > Or anything else for that matter?
2011-11-27 by leeleduc
31% HCL, also known as Muriatic Acid. A standard strength I buy at just about any hardware/building supply store. Also available at pool supply stores. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DaveC <davec2468@...> wrote:
> > What strength hcl are you using? The ratio is easily understood, but > it all depends on the strengths. (I see you use 3 percent h2o2.) > > Thanks > Dave > > -=-=-=- > > >I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in > >about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just > >enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly > >brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room > >temperature. Works very well for me. > > > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was > >too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > > > > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > >> > >> I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and > >>ferric chloride... > >> > >> But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, > >>or the cupric chloride? > >> > > > Or anything else for that matter? >
2011-11-27 by Roland Harriston
TDA: Actually, your local prices are not really that different from the price variations we have in the States. And, I guess, if one wanted to save a water and sodium bicarb solution, it would be rather reasonable to do so. But remember that the used solution will contain muriatic acid, and that is probably something to use caution with. I personally don't like to have a bunch of chemicals of any sort sitting around the house, so I use a batch once and get rid of it. Compared to sending my PCB fab jobs out to a commercial PCB fab house, the cost of the once-used-then-disposed chemicals is a pittance. And besides, with T.T., I don't have to wait two weeks to have my circuit boards. My containers of hydrogen peroxide and muriatic acid are kept in a secure place. I pay about a dollar for a quart of hydrogen peroxide, and about 5 dollars for a gallon of muriatic acid, which is practically a household item here in southern Arizona, where there are so many backyard swimming pools and the acid is used for pool cleaning. Good luck in your toner transfer adventures.......and believe me........perfecting the toner transfer method is truly and adventure. Roland F. Harriston, P.D. tda7000 wrote: > > > No worries, I can understand your point of view. > > However having never actually purchased any I had no idea of the > price, nor do I live in USA and in my country (New Zealand) things can > be a bit of a ripoff. > > For example, You can buy this (almost 1 litre) of hydrogen peroxide > for $2-3 > (http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/#step1) > but it costs me $3.50 just for 100ml (about 10 times the price!) > > No local shop sells more than 100ml bottles either, you can special > order larger ones but the price is even worse for some reason. (have > they not heard of bulk discounts?) > > Take the HCl too, according to that instructable, "The acid I got is > 31.45% (or 10M) and should run around $5 per gallon" > > Google tells me 1 US gallon = 3.7 litres, yet 1 litre of HCl here is > $18. That would make 3.7 litres around $60! > > You don't want to know the price of liquid tin crystals! (nobody sells > the liquid itself)- not that I buy them, of course. Some cheap flux > and a soldering iron is what I do in the way of tinning. > > I don't know if the prices for your chemicals are that cheap > everywhere in USA, so I'm sorry if I am wrong there, but in comparison > they do not seem very cheap here. > > However a quick look online suggests the baking soda IS pretty cheap, > so I guess that part wouldn't be too bad... thanks for the advice, I > guess once you used it you couldn't use it again anyway. > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Roland Harriston > <rolohar@...> wrote: > > > > Sometimes, I am truly amazed! > > > > A pound box of Arm and Hammer Baking soda costs about a dollar-fifty in > > any supermarket in the USA. > > Cheaper at WalMart. > > > > If you live in the high altitudes of Nepal or Tibet, and you have to > > ride your yak down a mountainside to buy a box, then you might think > > about saving > > the cost of an ounce of bicarb. > > > > Sorry.........I just could not resist. > > > > Roland F. Harriston, P.D. > > ******************* > > > > tda7000 wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks - I guess then that just a water rinse isn't good enough? > > > Also, do you re-use the baking soda mixture or make a new lot each > time? > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One thing I should mention. I keep a bowl with about 1 quart of > > > water and 1/4 cup of baking soda dissolved in it. When I'm done, I > > > toss the foam brush and any tools I've used into the bowl to > > > neutralize any acid on them. I do the same with the PCB, quick dip in > > > the bowl and a quick rinse under the the tap and I'm good to go. > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Sounds good, I think I will try that. Like the idea of a foam > > > brush, should be easier to use than just a kitchen sponge and less > messy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in > > > about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just > > > enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly > > > brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room > temperature. > > > Works very well for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the > reaction > > > was too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and > > > ferric chloride... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 > > > solution, or the cupric chloride? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or anything else for that matter? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-11-27 by DaveC
>31% HCL, also known as Muriatic Acid. A standard strength I buy at >just about any hardware/building supply store. Also available at >pool supply stores. I'm using the same effective ratio. My muriatic is 15% and h2o2 is 3% and my ratio is 1:1.This is the same as you're using: 31% hcl and 3% h2o2 at a ratio of 1:2. I'm still not sure why my etching takes so long. > > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was >> >too fast and hot to control easily. I'm confused: you use LESS hcl and the reaction was faster? I thought the acid is what increased (using more) or decreased (using less) the speed of the reaction, no? Thanks, Dave -=-=-=-
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DaveC <davec2468@...> wrote: >> >> What strength hcl are you using? The ratio is easily understood, but >> it all depends on the strengths. (I see you use 3 percent h2o2.) >> >> Thanks >> Dave >> >> -=-=-=- >> >> >I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in >> >about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just >> >enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly >> >brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room >> >temperature. Works very well for me. >> > > > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was >> >too fast and hot to control easily. > > > >> > >> > >> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: >> >> >> >> I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and >> >>ferric chloride... >> >> >> >> But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, >> >>or the cupric chloride? >> >> > > > > Or anything else for that matter?
2011-11-27 by DaveC
>I personally don't like to have a bunch of chemicals of any sort sitting >around the house, so I use a batch once >and get rid of it. >... What is your technique for getting rid of etchant? Thanks Dave
2011-11-27 by MIKE DURKIN
I seem to remember needing to bubble air through it and/or prime it with copper wire ..... before using it to etch boards .... you didn't just mix and go for it? To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
From: davec2468@...
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 08:29:57 -0800
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Sponge etching with HCl and H2O2?
>31% HCL, also known as Muriatic Acid. A standard strength I buy at
>just about any hardware/building supply store. Also available at
>pool supply stores.
I'm using the same effective ratio. My muriatic is 15% and h2o2 is 3%
and my ratio is 1:1.This is the same as you're using: 31% hcl and 3%
h2o2 at a ratio of 1:2.
I'm still not sure why my etching takes so long.
> > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was
>> >too fast and hot to control easily.
I'm confused: you use LESS hcl and the reaction was faster? I thought
the acid is what increased (using more) or decreased (using less) the
speed of the reaction, no?
Thanks,
Dave
-=-=-=-
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DaveC <davec2468@...> wrote:
>>
>> What strength hcl are you using? The ratio is easily understood, but
>> it all depends on the strengths. (I see you use 3 percent h2o2.)
>>
>> Thanks
>> Dave
>>
>> -=-=-=-
>>
>> >I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in
>> >about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just
>> >enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly
>> >brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room
>> >temperature. Works very well for me.
>> >
> > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was
>> >too fast and hot to control easily.
> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and
>> >>ferric chloride...
>> >>
>> >> But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution,
>> >>or the cupric chloride?
>> >>
> > > > Or anything else for that matter?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2011-11-27 by Benjamin Blumer
He's not less HCl, he's just using more pure hydrogen peroxide -- which also means less water. Heating the solution with an aquarium heater, and having a bubbler float bubbles by the board both speed things up. Be aware that the higher temperatures can increase the fumes -- and you do NOT want to inhale these. The bubbles can also a) be rougher on your etch resist and b) increase undercutting. I saw the last point in a white paper somewhere,although I can't seem to find the reference now though. Sent from my iPad On 2011-11-27, at 9:38 AM, DaveC <davec2468@...> wrote: >31% HCL, also known as Muriatic Acid. A standard strength I buy at >just about any hardware/building supply store. Also available at >pool supply stores. I'm using the same effective ratio. My muriatic is 15% and h2o2 is 3% and my ratio is 1:1.This is the same as you're using: 31% hcl and 3% h2o2 at a ratio of 1:2. I'm still not sure why my etching takes so long. > > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was >> >too fast and hot to control easily. I'm confused: you use LESS hcl and the reaction was faster? I thought the acid is what increased (using more) or decreased (using less) the speed of the reaction, no? Thanks, Dave -=-=-=- >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DaveC <davec2468@...> wrote: >> >> What strength hcl are you using? The ratio is easily understood, but >> it all depends on the strengths. (I see you use 3 percent h2o2.) >> >> Thanks >> Dave >> >> -=-=-=- >> >> >I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in >> >about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just >> >enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly >> >brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room >> >temperature. Works very well for me. >> > > > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was >> >too fast and hot to control easily. > > > >> > >> > >> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: >> >> >> >> I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and >> >>ferric chloride... >> >> >> >> But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, >> >>or the cupric chloride? >> >> > > > > Or anything else for that matter? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-11-27 by Roland Harriston
I (Roland) usually water-dilute the etch mix at about 100-to-1 ratio, and pour it down the drain. This is not a problem in my area because all of the plumbing is plastic. If you live in an older development that has metal plumbing, then you probably don't want to use my method. ************************ DaveC wrote: > > > >I personally don't like to have a bunch of chemicals of any sort sitting > >around the house, so I use a batch once > >and get rid of it. > >... > > What is your technique for getting rid of etchant? > > Thanks > Dave > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-11-27 by leeleduc
Here's a web page about using the acid/peroxide etchant. About half way down the page is a calculator for the mix. Input your % acid and % peroxide and it tells you how much water you have to add. http://www.dr-lex.be/hardware/tonertransfer.html --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DaveC <davec2468@...> wrote:
> > >31% HCL, also known as Muriatic Acid. A standard strength I buy at > >just about any hardware/building supply store. Also available at > >pool supply stores. > > I'm using the same effective ratio. My muriatic is 15% and h2o2 is 3% > and my ratio is 1:1.This is the same as you're using: 31% hcl and 3% > h2o2 at a ratio of 1:2. > > I'm still not sure why my etching takes so long. > > > > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was > >> >too fast and hot to control easily. > > I'm confused: you use LESS hcl and the reaction was faster? I thought > the acid is what increased (using more) or decreased (using less) the > speed of the reaction, no? > > Thanks, > Dave > > -=-=-=- > > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DaveC <davec2468@> wrote: > >> > >> What strength hcl are you using? The ratio is easily understood, but > >> it all depends on the strengths. (I see you use 3 percent h2o2.) > >> > >> Thanks > >> Dave > >> > >> -=-=-=- > >> > >> >I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in > >> >about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just > >> >enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly > >> >brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room > >> >temperature. Works very well for me. > >> > > > > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was > >> >too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and > >> >>ferric chloride... > >> >> > >> >> But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, > >> >>or the cupric chloride? > >> >> > > > > > Or anything else for that matter? >
2011-11-27 by DaveC
I entered 3% h2o2 and 15% hcl into the calculator. The result is: Mix h2o2: 66.7%; hcl: 53.3%; water: -20% What does it mean if I get a water result of minus 20% ? Thanks, Dave -=-=-=-
>Here's a web page about using the acid/peroxide etchant. About half >way down the page is a calculator for the mix. Input your % acid and >% peroxide and it tells you how much water you have to add. > >http://www.dr-lex.be/hardware/tonertransfer.html
2011-11-27 by Benjamin Blumer
I would take that to mean that with those concentrations, your solution is already too diluted. If you don't have access to 30% HCl, I'd just use the ratios they give (~1.25 parts H2O2 to 1 part HCl) and hope for the best. Sent from my iPad On 2011-11-27, at 3:40 PM, DaveC <davec2468@...> wrote: I entered 3% h2o2 and 15% hcl into the calculator. The result is: Mix h2o2: 66.7%; hcl: 53.3%; water: -20% What does it mean if I get a water result of minus 20% ? Thanks, Dave -=-=-=- >Here's a web page about using the acid/peroxide etchant. About half >way down the page is a calculator for the mix. Input your % acid and >% peroxide and it tells you how much water you have to add. > >http://www.dr-lex.be/hardware/tonertransfer.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-11-27 by DaveC
OK, everybody, chime in here and share how you dispose of your etchant. I've got metal pipes so need to know what to do. But then again, with my weak concentration, maybe I've got nothing to worry about... Thanks, Dave -=-=-=-
>I (Roland) usually water-dilute the etch mix at about 100-to-1 ratio, >and pour it down the drain. > >This is not a problem in my area because all of the plumbing is plastic. >If you live in an older development that has metal plumbing, then you >probably don't want to use my method.
2011-11-27 by Benjamin Blumer
The two options seem to be: dilute it and mix it with a baking soda solution to neutralize it or to bring it to a chemical disposal center. Sent from my iPad On 2011-11-27, at 4:19 PM, DaveC <davec2468@...> wrote: OK, everybody, chime in here and share how you dispose of your etchant. I've got metal pipes so need to know what to do. But then again, with my weak concentration, maybe I've got nothing to worry about... Thanks, Dave -=-=-=- >I (Roland) usually water-dilute the etch mix at about 100-to-1 ratio, >and pour it down the drain. > >This is not a problem in my area because all of the plumbing is plastic. >If you live in an older development that has metal plumbing, then you >probably don't want to use my method. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-11-28 by leeleduc
I've gotten some questions in the past on where to find chemicals for making etchant. Here's a list of where to find Hydrochloric Acid and Hydrogen Peroxide in US stores. Available at Hardware, Building Supply, and Pool Supply stores Hydrochloric Acid / Muriatic Acid 31% Available at Grocery stores, Pharmacies 3% Hydrogen Peroxide Available at Beauty Supply stores Developer 10 volume or V10 = 3% Hydrogen Peroxide Developer 20 volume or V20 = 6% Hydrogen Peroxide Developer 30 volume or V30 = 9% Hydrogen Peroxide Developer 40 volume or V40 = 12% Hydrogen Peroxide Available at Pool / Spa supply stores Baquacil Oxidizer = 27% Hydrogen Peroxide --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > 31% HCL, also known as Muriatic Acid. A standard strength I buy at just about any hardware/building supply store. Also available at pool supply stores. > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DaveC <davec2468@> wrote: > > > > What strength hcl are you using? The ratio is easily understood, but > > it all depends on the strengths. (I see you use 3 percent h2o2.) > > > > Thanks > > Dave > > > > -=-=-=- > > > > >I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in > > >about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just > > >enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly > > >brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room > > >temperature. Works very well for me. > > > > > >I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was > > >too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > >> > > >> I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and > > >>ferric chloride... > > >> > > >> But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, > > >>or the cupric chloride? > > >> > > > > Or anything else for that matter? > > >
2011-11-28 by DJ Delorie
Heh. In the USA, lab-grade HCl is expensive, but concrete cleaner (exactly the same chemical!) is dirt cheap. I can buy etchant for pennies a board, if I know where to buy it...
2011-11-28 by DJ Delorie
DaveC <davec2468@...> writes: > OK, everybody, chime in here and share how you dispose of your etchant. I don't. Use CuCl and regenerate it. Any tiny bits of etchant I rinse off the board are so diluted by the torrent of water that it doesn't really matter what happens to them. They go into the perimeter drain, and eventually end up out in the woods, where I assume (hope) they're doing their part to keep the weeds away from the end of the drain pipe, if they do anything at all.
2011-11-28 by DJ Delorie
DaveC <davec2468@...> writes: > I'm confused: you use LESS hcl and the reaction was faster? I thought > the acid is what increased (using more) or decreased (using less) the > speed of the reaction, no? Reactions run fastest when all the parts needed are present in sufficient quantities. Pure HCl will *not* etch copper! You also need an oxidant! (amusingly enough, pure HCL *will* take the tarnish off copper, as the tarnish is pre-oxidized copper) The H2O2 provides an oxidant, so you need enough of that also. In a CuCl etchant, the CuCl is itself an oxidizer and acid, but you still need HCl to provide additional Cl atoms for it to work.
2011-11-28 by DJ Delorie
"leeleduc" <leeleduc@...> writes: > Available at Hardware, Building Supply, and Pool Supply stores > Hydrochloric Acid / Muriatic Acid 31% In our local hardware store, it's in the paint aisle, as it's used to clean concrete before painting.
2011-11-28 by Piers Goodhew
I use ammonium persulphate and give the CuSO4 crystals to my local council "hobby chemical cleanup" which they do a few times a year. For low volume guys like me, persulphate rocks. No stains, no corroded plumbing or dead dolphins ... PG On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 6:13 AM, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote: > ** > > > > DaveC <davec2468@...> writes: > > OK, everybody, chime in here and share how you dispose of your etchant. > > I don't. Use CuCl and regenerate it. > > Any tiny bits of etchant I rinse off the board are so diluted by the > torrent of water that it doesn't really matter what happens to them. > They go into the perimeter drain, and eventually end up out in the > woods, where I assume (hope) they're doing their part to keep the weeds > away from the end of the drain pipe, if they do anything at all. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2011-11-29 by Tony Smith
> > Available at Hardware, Building Supply, and Pool Supply stores > > Hydrochloric Acid / Muriatic Acid 31% > > In our local hardware store, it's in the paint aisle, as it's used to clean concrete > before painting. Same in Australia. Tony
2011-11-29 by tda7000
Well, I bought some foam brushes and tried out that idea. It certainly made a difference but didn't etch in one minute. I think maybe my HCl or H2O2 might be getting old as I think my etch times were longer recently without the sponge\foam idea as well. --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@...> wrote:
> > > > > > > One thing I should mention. I keep a bowl with about 1 quart of water and 1/4 cup of baking soda dissolved in it. When I'm done, I toss the foam brush and any tools I've used into the bowl to neutralize any acid on them. I do the same with the PCB, quick dip in the bowl and a quick rinse under the the tap and I'm good to go. > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > Sounds good, I think I will try that. Like the idea of a foam brush, should be easier to use than just a kitchen sponge and less messy. > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leeleduc" <leeleduc@> wrote: > > > > > > I use this technique all the time. I can do a 4X6 inch board in about 2 minutes. I use 1 Part HCL and 2 Parts 3% H2O2. I make just enough etchant to cover the board about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and lightly brush the surface with a foam Paint brush. I etch at room temperature. Works very well for me. > > > > > > I've also tried 1 part HCL and 2 parts 12% H2O2 but the reaction was too fast and hot to control easily. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "tda7000" <Tda7000@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I see some people get very fast etch times with a sponge and ferric chloride... > > > > > > > > But has anyone tried that method with the HCl and H2O2 solution, or the cupric chloride? > > > > > > > > Or anything else for that matter? > > > > > > > > > >
2011-11-30 by Russell Shaw
On 28/11/11 10:19, DaveC wrote: > OK, everybody, chime in here and share how you dispose of your etchant. > > I've got metal pipes so need to know what to do. > > But then again, with my weak concentration, maybe I've got nothing to > worry about... I've been using the same FeCl in a tank for the last 2+ years and top it up with hardware-shop muratic acid (HCl). It's probably converted to CuCl etchant now. FeCl is a flocculating agent for sewer treatment. With dissolved copper from etching, it is highly toxic to plants and makes an *excellent* weed killer.