ComputerVoltageSources

Anyone started to design / conceptualize what a front panel for this
might be with all the controls, jacks, & LCD? I'm starting to wonder
how large it will be. Size is important to me. I'm thinking of the
smaller knobs ala a UEG to minimize the width. Seems like a good
project for a new Stooge panel.

Dave

Having designed a few frac format schaeffer panels for Oakley PCBs
that I'm pleased w/, I fancy having a try at this in frac format?
(unless Mr Firman is already on it, of course) Can someone summarise
what items will be on the front panel? 8 outputs, 8 or 16
knobs...what else?

On 3/23/06, djbrow54 <davebr@...> wrote:
> Anyone started to design / conceptualize what a front panel for this
> might be with all the controls, jacks, & LCD? I'm starting to wonder
> how large it will be. Size is important to me. I'm thinking of the
> smaller knobs ala a UEG to minimize the width. Seems like a good
> project for a new Stooge panel.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Reset Pushbutton

Run Pushbutton, Run LED, Run input jack
Stop Pushbutton, Stop LED, Stop input jack

8 general purpose uncalibrated CV input jacks
1 to 8 1 volt per octave calibrated input jacks (probably only need 1 for most purposes)
8 offset pots
8 attenuator pots (dual function I hope)
8 output jacks
8 Output LEDs

AUX I/O jack??????
LCD display??????
Cursor/Enter buttons for LCD display?????

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Fay" <vietgrove@...> wrote:
>
> Having designed a few frac format schaeffer panels for Oakley PCBs
> that I'm pleased w/, I fancy having a try at this in frac format?
> (unless Mr Firman is already on it, of course) Can someone summarise
> what items will be on the front panel? 8 outputs, 8 or 16
> knobs...what else?
>
> On 3/23/06, djbrow54 <davebr@...> wrote:
> > Anyone started to design / conceptualize what a front panel for this
> > might be with all the controls, jacks, & LCD? I'm starting to wonder
> > how large it will be. Size is important to me. I'm thinking of the
> > smaller knobs ala a UEG to minimize the width. Seems like a good
> > project for a new Stooge panel.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi Grant
re:

> Cursor/Enter buttons for LCD display?????
>

the latest discussion i've seen precludes dedicated input controls for
the LCD.
refer to messages 251 & 253
for proposals of alternatives

-doc

OK, I plan on laying it out as follows:

8 g.p. uncalibrated input jacks
8 1v/oct calibrated input jacks
8 offset pots
8 attenuator pots

in horizontal rows on the LH side.

LED, cursor/enter buttons - top centre

run button/led/jack & stop button/led/jack - bottom centre

8 output jacks & 8 output LEDs in 2 vertical columns down the RH side.

Dunno about the aux i/o

I figure that if I add all this, and anything gets deleted, it's easy
to remove it using the .fpd editor.

IN MY DREAMS I imagined this as fitting into a panel 2 x the width of,
say, a frac noise ring or binary zone, ha ha, peals of derisive
laughter - I'll see how it all fits into 4/5 of a complete fracrack,
IE twice that. Maybe it can be shrunk into 3/5 or 7/10 and still be
comfortable to use, but I doubt it.

On 3/23/06, Grant Richter <grichter@...> wrote:
> Reset Pushbutton
>
> Run Pushbutton, Run LED, Run input jack
> Stop Pushbutton, Stop LED, Stop input jack
>
> 8 general purpose uncalibrated CV input jacks
> 1 to 8 1 volt per octave calibrated input jacks (probably only need 1 for most purposes)
> 8 offset pots
> 8 attenuator pots (dual function I hope)
> 8 output jacks
> 8 Output LEDs
>
> AUX I/O jack??????
> LCD display??????
> Cursor/Enter buttons for LCD display?????
>
>
>
> --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Fay" <vietgrove@...> wrote:
> >
> > Having designed a few frac format schaeffer panels for Oakley PCBs
> > that I'm pleased w/, I fancy having a try at this in frac format?
> > (unless Mr Firman is already on it, of course) Can someone summarise
> > what items will be on the front panel? 8 outputs, 8 or 16
> > knobs...what else?
> >
> > On 3/23/06, djbrow54 <davebr@...> wrote:
> > > Anyone started to design / conceptualize what a front panel for this
> > > might be with all the controls, jacks, & LCD? I'm starting to wonder
> > > how large it will be. Size is important to me. I'm thinking of the
> > > smaller knobs ala a UEG to minimize the width. Seems like a good
> > > project for a new Stooge panel.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Norm,

Also, I think, an RS-232 connector for the serial cable?

I created a folder in the files section for front panel designs. I'm
gonna take a shot at it, too... was planning on doing a sketch or 2,
and post GIFs to get feedback; and then create a FPD file of a
complete design.

Besides multiple formats (Frac, MOTM, euro), I'm imagining there may
be more than one implementation based on feature set... fr instance,
I'll probably build a module which I'll use as a dedicated 4channel
quantizer; may well only need 4 ins, 4 outs, and a couple of
buttons/leds. but as you say, a good approach is to capture the
complete set of controls, individuals can edit/delete to taste.

anyway, thanks & looking forward to your contribution

bbob

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Fay"
<vietgrove@...> wrote:

>
> OK, I plan on laying it out as follows:
>
> 8 g.p. uncalibrated input jacks
> 8 1v/oct calibrated input jacks
> 8 offset pots
> 8 attenuator pots
>
> in horizontal rows on the LH side.
>
> LED, cursor/enter buttons - top centre
>
> run button/led/jack & stop button/led/jack - bottom centre
>
> 8 output jacks & 8 output LEDs in 2 vertical columns down the RH

side.

>
> Dunno about the aux i/o
>
> I figure that if I add all this, and anything gets deleted, it's

easy

> to remove it using the .fpd editor.
>
> IN MY DREAMS I imagined this as fitting into a panel 2 x the width

of,

> say, a frac noise ring or binary zone, ha ha, peals of derisive
> laughter - I'll see how it all fits into 4/5 of a complete fracrack,
> IE twice that. Maybe it can be shrunk into 3/5 or 7/10 and still be
> comfortable to use, but I doubt it.
>
>
>

I've been busy settling into a new job, but I can take a crack at a
panel (in MOTM format anyway) after I get back from AHMW if people
would like me to.

Moe
--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "djbrow54" <davebr@...>
wrote:

>
> Anyone started to design / conceptualize what a front panel for this
> might be with all the controls, jacks, & LCD? I'm starting to wonder
> how large it will be. Size is important to me. I'm thinking of the
> smaller knobs ala a UEG to minimize the width. Seems like a good
> project for a new Stooge panel.
>
> Dave
>

OK, I just uploaded a blank panel .fpd file, 4 panel widths wide, IE
12" wide, 5.25" high, with screw holes 1.5" apart, 0.3" from the top
and bottom. I think that's right - can anyone confirm? (I'll check
tonight, in any case)

I'll bring a bunch of parts into work tomorrow so I won't indulge in
my usual bad .fpd habit of putting everything too close together! :-/

rs-232 port, of course, yes.

does anyone have dimensions for the lcd screen?

On 3/23/06, data2action <rdrake@...> wrote:
> Norm,
>
> Also, I think, an RS-232 connector for the serial cable?
>
> I created a folder in the files section for front panel designs. I'm
> gonna take a shot at it, too... was planning on doing a sketch or 2,
> and post GIFs to get feedback; and then create a FPD file of a
> complete design.
>
> Besides multiple formats (Frac, MOTM, euro), I'm imagining there may
> be more than one implementation based on feature set... fr instance,
> I'll probably build a module which I'll use as a dedicated 4channel
> quantizer; may well only need 4 ins, 4 outs, and a couple of
> buttons/leds. but as you say, a good approach is to capture the
> complete set of controls, individuals can edit/delete to taste.
>
> anyway, thanks & looking forward to your contribution
>
> bbob
>
> --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Fay"
> <vietgrove@...> wrote:
> >
> > OK, I plan on laying it out as follows:
> >
> > 8 g.p. uncalibrated input jacks
> > 8 1v/oct calibrated input jacks
> > 8 offset pots
> > 8 attenuator pots
> >
> > in horizontal rows on the LH side.
> >
> > LED, cursor/enter buttons - top centre
> >
> > run button/led/jack & stop button/led/jack - bottom centre
> >
> > 8 output jacks & 8 output LEDs in 2 vertical columns down the RH
> side.
> >
> > Dunno about the aux i/o
> >
> > I figure that if I add all this, and anything gets deleted, it's
> easy
> > to remove it using the .fpd editor.
> >
> > IN MY DREAMS I imagined this as fitting into a panel 2 x the width
> of,
> > say, a frac noise ring or binary zone, ha ha, peals of derisive
> > laughter - I'll see how it all fits into 4/5 of a complete fracrack,
> > IE twice that. Maybe it can be shrunk into 3/5 or 7/10 and still be
> > comfortable to use, but I doubt it.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Based on all the 'back and forth' the following seem to be missing:

9 pin RS-232
5 pin MIDI in
5 pin MIDI out

The following seem to belong on another panel (connected behind the
primary panel):

AUX I/O jack??????
LCD display??????
Cursor/Enter buttons for LCD display?????

I would think that the AUX I/O, I2C, SPI, and other(?) signals would
be on the PCB for connection behind the panel to optional add-on
panels. Usinf .1" connectors? DIP headers?

Anyone up to a 2u MOTM or (preferred) 2u Synthesizers.com panel design?

Larry T.

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Grant Richter"
<grichter@...> wrote:

>
> Reset Pushbutton
>
> Run Pushbutton, Run LED, Run input jack
> Stop Pushbutton, Stop LED, Stop input jack
>
> 8 general purpose uncalibrated CV input jacks
> 1 to 8 1 volt per octave calibrated input jacks (probably only need

1 for most purposes)

> 8 offset pots
> 8 attenuator pots (dual function I hope)
> 8 output jacks
> 8 Output LEDs
>
> AUX I/O jack??????
> LCD display??????
> Cursor/Enter buttons for LCD display?????
>

Check the Lumex LCD spec in the links section.

John

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Fay"
<vietgrove@...> wrote:

>
>>
> does anyone have dimensions for the lcd screen?
>

oh yeah, midi too.

At least some MOTM owners are concerned w/ consistency of panel
layout (not me, i'm just sayin'... I've read some objections to other
projects that deviated from the standard). However, implementing
the full feature set plus strict adherence to Paul's original
standard (max of 4 knobs vertically) might be a challenge... or a
Very Big module. A couple ideas:

Encore electronics UEG squeezes 8 knobs into one veritical row:
http://www.encoreelectronics.com/cont_ueg1.html

And Scott at Tellun has begun some designs that use the same smaller
knobs: http://www.tellun.com/motm/diy/diy.html

Just potential models to consider.

b


--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Fay"
<vietgrove@...> wrote:

>
> OK, I just uploaded a blank panel .fpd file, 4 panel widths wide, IE
> 12" wide, 5.25" high, with screw holes 1.5" apart, 0.3" from the top
> and bottom. I think that's right - can anyone confirm? (I'll check
> tonight, in any case)
>
> I'll bring a bunch of parts into work tomorrow so I won't indulge in
> my usual bad .fpd habit of putting everything too close

together! :-/

>
> rs-232 port, of course, yes.
>
> does anyone have dimensions for the lcd screen?
>
> On 3/23/06, data2action <rdrake@...> wrote:
> > Norm,
> >
> > Also, I think, an RS-232 connector for the serial cable?
> >
> > I created a folder in the files section for front panel designs.

I'm

> > gonna take a shot at it, too... was planning on doing a sketch or

2,

> > and post GIFs to get feedback; and then create a FPD file of a
> > complete design.
> >
> > Besides multiple formats (Frac, MOTM, euro), I'm imagining there

may

> > be more than one implementation based on feature set... fr

instance,

> > I'll probably build a module which I'll use as a dedicated

4channel

> > quantizer; may well only need 4 ins, 4 outs, and a couple of
> > buttons/leds. but as you say, a good approach is to capture the
> > complete set of controls, individuals can edit/delete to taste.
> >
> > anyway, thanks & looking forward to your contribution
> >
> > bbob
> >
> > --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Fay"
> > <vietgrove@> wrote:
> > >
> > > OK, I plan on laying it out as follows:
> > >
> > > 8 g.p. uncalibrated input jacks
> > > 8 1v/oct calibrated input jacks
> > > 8 offset pots
> > > 8 attenuator pots
> > >
> > > in horizontal rows on the LH side.
> > >
> > > LED, cursor/enter buttons - top centre
> > >
> > > run button/led/jack & stop button/led/jack - bottom centre
> > >
> > > 8 output jacks & 8 output LEDs in 2 vertical columns down the RH
> > side.
> > >
> > > Dunno about the aux i/o
> > >
> > > I figure that if I add all this, and anything gets deleted, it's
> > easy
> > > to remove it using the .fpd editor.
> > >
> > > IN MY DREAMS I imagined this as fitting into a panel 2 x the

width

> > of,
> > > say, a frac noise ring or binary zone, ha ha, peals of derisive
> > > laughter - I'll see how it all fits into 4/5 of a complete

fracrack,

> > > IE twice that. Maybe it can be shrunk into 3/5 or 7/10 and

still be

> > > comfortable to use, but I doubt it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

>
> oh yeah, midi too.
>
> At least some MOTM owners are concerned w/ consistency of panel
> layout (not me, i'm just sayin'... I've read some objections to other
> projects that deviated from the standard).

Then they can do their own layout, huh.
Even using 8 knobs vertical, there are 18 1/4" connectors.

> However, implementing
> the full feature set plus strict adherence to Paul's original
> standard (max of 4 knobs vertically) might be a challenge... or a
> Very Big module. A couple ideas:
>
> Encore electronics UEG squeezes 8 knobs into one veritical row:
> http://www.encoreelectronics.com/cont_ueg1.html
>
> And Scott at Tellun has begun some designs that use the same smaller
> knobs: http://www.tellun.com/motm/diy/diy.html
>
> Just potential models to consider.
>
> b
>
>
> --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Fay"
> <vietgrove@> wrote:
> >
> > OK, I just uploaded a blank panel .fpd file, 4 panel widths wide, IE
> > 12" wide, 5.25" high, with screw holes 1.5" apart, 0.3" from the top
> > and bottom. I think that's right - can anyone confirm? (I'll check
> > tonight, in any case)
> >
> > I'll bring a bunch of parts into work tomorrow so I won't indulge in
> > my usual bad .fpd habit of putting everything too close
> together! :-/
> >
> > rs-232 port, of course, yes.
> >
> > does anyone have dimensions for the lcd screen?
> >
> > On 3/23/06, data2action <rdrake@> wrote:
> > > Norm,
> > >
> > > Also, I think, an RS-232 connector for the serial cable?
> > >
> > > I created a folder in the files section for front panel designs.
> I'm
> > > gonna take a shot at it, too... was planning on doing a sketch or
> 2,
> > > and post GIFs to get feedback; and then create a FPD file of a
> > > complete design.
> > >
> > > Besides multiple formats (Frac, MOTM, euro), I'm imagining there
> may
> > > be more than one implementation based on feature set... fr
> instance,
> > > I'll probably build a module which I'll use as a dedicated
> 4channel
> > > quantizer; may well only need 4 ins, 4 outs, and a couple of
> > > buttons/leds. but as you say, a good approach is to capture the
> > > complete set of controls, individuals can edit/delete to taste.
> > >
> > > anyway, thanks & looking forward to your contribution
> > >
> > > bbob
> > >
> > > --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Fay"
> > > <vietgrove@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > OK, I plan on laying it out as follows:
> > > >
> > > > 8 g.p. uncalibrated input jacks
> > > > 8 1v/oct calibrated input jacks
> > > > 8 offset pots
> > > > 8 attenuator pots
> > > >
> > > > in horizontal rows on the LH side.
> > > >
> > > > LED, cursor/enter buttons - top centre
> > > >
> > > > run button/led/jack & stop button/led/jack - bottom centre
> > > >
> > > > 8 output jacks & 8 output LEDs in 2 vertical columns down the RH
> > > side.
> > > >
> > > > Dunno about the aux i/o
> > > >
> > > > I figure that if I add all this, and anything gets deleted, it's
> > > easy
> > > > to remove it using the .fpd editor.
> > > >
> > > > IN MY DREAMS I imagined this as fitting into a panel 2 x the
> width
> > > of,
> > > > say, a frac noise ring or binary zone, ha ha, peals of derisive
> > > > laughter - I'll see how it all fits into 4/5 of a complete
> fracrack,
> > > > IE twice that. Maybe it can be shrunk into 3/5 or 7/10 and
> still be
> > > > comfortable to use, but I doubt it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Build it and they will come. For large pot fields it is impossible to
maintain the pure MOTM standard of 1 knob per 1 rack unit horizontally.

I've done sequencer panels which use a 1 1/2" horizontal grid with the
big knobs, and of course you can go to the smaller knobs too.

Moe

> At least some MOTM owners are concerned w/ consistency of panel
> layout (not me, i'm just sayin'... I've read some objections to other
> projects that deviated from the standard).

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "mate_stubb"
<mate_stubb@...> wrote:

>
> Build it and they will come. For large pot fields it is impossible to
> maintain the pure MOTM standard of 1 knob per 1 rack unit

horizontally.

>
> I've done sequencer panels which use a 1 1/2" horizontal grid with

the

> big knobs, and of course you can go to the smaller knobs too.
>
> Moe
>
> > At least some MOTM owners are concerned w/ consistency of panel
> > layout (not me, i'm just sayin'... I've read some objections to

other

> > projects that deviated from the standard).

Could it be built 4U X 5U, then it could fit a motm or doepfer right?
Seems like that way the maximum possible audience could partake of one
design. Them tellun knob layouts seem pretty awesome too. It's cool to
see so many people excited about a project.
P

Personally I feel the PKES70 type knob is a good compromise in the MOTM
format. But even that seems like a 5 or 6U wide MOTM panel.

I bet the only chance of fitting in 4U is the PKES60 size knobs as seen on
the Encore UEG.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mate_stubb
>
> Build it and they will come. For large pot fields it is impossible to
> maintain the pure MOTM standard of 1 knob per 1 rack unit horizontally.
>
> I've done sequencer panels which use a 1 1/2" horizontal grid with the
> big knobs, and of course you can go to the smaller knobs too.
>
> Moe
>
> > At least some MOTM owners are concerned w/ consistency of panel
> > layout (not me, i'm just sayin'... I've read some objections to other
> > projects that deviated from the standard).
>
>

Yes please.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mate_stubb
>
> I've been busy settling into a new job, but I can take a crack at a
> panel (in MOTM format anyway) after I get back from AHMW if people
> would like me to.
>
> Moe
> --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "djbrow54" <davebr@...>

The Stooge panel designs for the PSIM may be useful for panel design
inspiration:

http://larry.retrosynth.com/larry/panel/gif/psim3.gif
http://larry.retrosynth.com/larry/panel/gif/psim7.gif

R.I.P., Larry.
--
john

I did a 6U MOTM concept in FPD. Didn't spend much time lining things
up but rather wanted to see how it all fit. I used the 0.75" knobs
with spacing similar to my PSIM. I put a .jpg in my photo section.
Lots of jacks - not sure what the difference is between the calibrated
and uncalibrated inputs.

Using UEG knob spacing, I think I can get this down to a 5U panel.
Maybe I'll try that this weekend.

Dave


--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, John Mahoney
<jmahoney@...> wrote:

>
> The Stooge panel designs for the PSIM may be useful for panel design
> inspiration:
>
> http://larry.retrosynth.com/larry/panel/gif/psim3.gif
> http://larry.retrosynth.com/larry/panel/gif/psim7.gif
>
> R.I.P., Larry.
> --
> john
>

i'm not really up on what's going on with the concept, having caught
the beginning of this thread on sdiy and then lost it until a day or
two ago when i learned it had moved here. i have what may be regarded
as a few dumb questions.

- does it have to be rs232 for the computer interface?

i've not seen a serial interface other than usb or firewire on a Mac
in living memory, and i'd be surprised if it survives on PCs for much
longer. however, MIDI's going to be around for a while yet, and
presumably USB for a while longer. can we have one of those instead?

- larry's PSIM layouts look pretty good. are all 8 inputs etc that
people are talking about necessary or even supportable by the
hardware platform? 5U MOTM is pretty damn big!

as a software tweak and hardware klutz i'm kinda looking forward to a
module i can tweak...

thanks,
j

jason--

welcome... yeah, we had a number of folks join in the last couple
days. probably worth plowing thru th messages so far to get up to
speed.

your second question first: the general concept is to produce a PCB
board design that maximizes core functionality while keeping cost &
complexity low... folks can then implement as much of that
functionality as they want/need. not everyone will want everything.
as you say, 5u is pretty big, but that's based on implementing all
functions. i mentioned in another post an alternate implementation
of, say, a dedicated 4channel quantizer; in MOTM format that could
easily fit in 1u. i think the vision (or at least my version) is to
have a flexible core "brain", that could be used as the base for all
kinds of modules.

on the port thang: AFAIK the serial interface is the one supported
by the atompro chip (there was a long discussion that finally
settled on that as the core for this project); usb/firewire are
_considerably_ more difficult to implement. since there's an strong
interest in getting _something_ committed to copper in the short
term, there are some tradeoffs.

howerver, this is an open source project, and everyone's a volunteer
contributor--if you'd like to tackle an add-on that could convert
usb to serial, you're more than welcome (the display panel is going
to be an add-on, too). in the longer term, if this model of
community development seems to work, i can imagine additional
projects being undertaken in the same way... which kind of frees up
this one from being the be-all-end-all, in terms of features.

b

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, Jason Proctor
<jason@...> wrote:

>
> i'm not really up on what's going on with the concept, having

caught

> the beginning of this thread on sdiy and then lost it until a day

or

> two ago when i learned it had moved here. i have what may be

regarded

> as a few dumb questions.
>
> - does it have to be rs232 for the computer interface?
>
> i've not seen a serial interface other than usb or firewire on a

Mac

> in living memory, and i'd be surprised if it survives on PCs for

much

> longer. however, MIDI's going to be around for a while yet, and
> presumably USB for a while longer. can we have one of those

instead?

>
> - larry's PSIM layouts look pretty good. are all 8 inputs etc that
> people are talking about necessary or even supportable by the
> hardware platform? 5U MOTM is pretty damn big!
>
> as a software tweak and hardware klutz i'm kinda looking forward

to a

> module i can tweak...
>
> thanks,
> j
>

Hi Jason
ok i'll try to tackle these, i'm more of a software guy too.
you hardware gurus feel free to jump in anytime if i f^&k this up!
;'>

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, Jason Proctor
<jason@...> wrote:

>
> i'm not really up on what's going on with the concept, having caught
> the beginning of this thread on sdiy and then lost it until a day or
> two ago when i learned it had moved here. i have what may be regarded
> as a few dumb questions.

i suggest that it's worth wading through the message traffic on this
site to get the big picture. On a project this complex, consensus is
pretty hard won and there are some folks working on this with a deep
pool of hands-on expertise. There's a lot of widely applicable info in
those posts

>
> - does it have to be rs232 for the computer interface?
>
> i've not seen a serial interface other than usb or firewire on a Mac
> in living memory, and i'd be surprised if it survives on PCs for much
> longer. however, MIDI's going to be around for a while yet, and
> presumably USB for a while longer. can we have one of those instead?
>

i believe we are constrained by the design of the BasicAtomPro
architecture- which is RS232. So if you are living in MACland, a USB
to RS232 converter and some sort of PC emulation will probably be
required. Look for some of Mike Firman's posts. He has some experience
with MBASIC on a MAC.
Please keep in mind that the realm of this kind of gadget is
really neither PC or MAC.... it's PIC...basicstamps..... the little
'computer-on-a-chip' gadgets that operate the radial-saw elbow of
those robots you see on Robot Wars! RS232 is still very much alive in
that world.
I find most of my best hints and tips in the hobbyist robot sites

> - larry's PSIM layouts look pretty good. are all 8 inputs etc that
> people are talking about necessary or even supportable by the
> hardware platform?
>

8 ins and outs are supported by Grants basic PCB design. But this is a
DIY project so you can always 'roll-your-own' and implement fewer
I/O's if you don't need them.

> as a software tweak and hardware klutz i'm kinda looking forward to a
> module i can tweak...
>

it's nice to have the power to implement a complex function with
something OTHER than just opamps in your toolkit eh?
Willkommen and have fun!
-doc

Those are nice designs.

Maybe all connectors on one panel and all knobs on another?
I know the MOTM format is horizontal, but a vertical layout would be compact.

Just a thought.

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, John Mahoney <jmahoney@...> wrote:
>
> The Stooge panel designs for the PSIM may be useful for panel design
> inspiration:
>
> http://larry.retrosynth.com/larry/panel/gif/psim3.gif
> http://larry.retrosynth.com/larry/panel/gif/psim7.gif
>
> R.I.P., Larry.
> --
> john
>

> Lots of jacks - not sure what the difference is between the calibrated
> and uncalibrated inputs.
>

In the summing section of a typical VCO or synth module, you use 1% resistors. That is 1
part in 100 accuracy.

The input A/D is 10 bits or 1 part in 1024. So using any two 1% resistors, the input
reading could differ by 20 "counts" (one res at +1%, one res at -1%). The simplest way to
trim that precisely is with a trimpot.

We want an input that is 0 counts at 0 volts and exactly 1023 counts at 5.000 volts (with
0.00499 volts per count). We can convert that to floating point and actually calculate in
real world voltages. Since the ouput is calibrated, you can work in real world voltages also.

The non-trimpot input is close but not precise. Unless you match the resistors by hand to
0.1% or buy them matched for 80 cents apiece.

I believe the calibrated jacks will go directly to the A/D summing nodes,
while the non-calibrated jacks will go through the attenuators. Correct?

The problem with trimming is that most DIYers have sub $100 DMMs with 1%
accuracy. Trimming isn't really valid at 10 bit resolution unless your DMM
approaches 0.1% accuracy = 1/1000th.

One option is the 80 cent 0.1% resistors. Another option is to match a pile
of 1% resistors with a 4 digit DMM and hope the DMM relative accuracy is
much better than the absolute accuracy. This is usually the case, but
without calibrating against a higher accuracy instrument you can't really
tell for certain.

The other option is you just don't care and leave out the calibrated inputs.
:-)

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Grant Richter
>
> > Lots of jacks - not sure what the difference is between the calibrated
> > and uncalibrated inputs.
> >
>
> In the summing section of a typical VCO or synth module, you use 1%
> resistors. That is 1
> part in 100 accuracy.
>
> The input A/D is 10 bits or 1 part in 1024. So using any two 1% resistors,
> the input
> reading could differ by 20 "counts" (one res at +1%, one res at -1%). The
> simplest way to
> trim that precisely is with a trimpot.
>
> We want an input that is 0 counts at 0 volts and exactly 1023 counts at
> 5.000 volts (with
> 0.00499 volts per count). We can convert that to floating point and
> actually calculate in
> real world voltages. Since the ouput is calibrated, you can work in real
> world voltages also.
>
> The non-trimpot input is close but not precise. Unless you match the
> resistors by hand to
> 0.1% or buy them matched for 80 cents apiece.
>

After a little bit of a false start (due to a keyspan USB->Serial interface
going bad on me) I can report that I am happily and easily programming
the PSIM-1 on my G5 iMac. I'm running the development environment
in VirtualPC (running WindowsXP) and using a rather generic USB->Serial
interface (don't have the name right now but I can get it for you if you need
it). It runs very well and quickly. Maybe a little expensive solution but it
is one step closer to not having an extra PC around just to to two tasks
(developing for the PSIM-1 and burning EPROMS). The EPROM burning
software even runs in a DOS window under VirtualPC/WindowsXP but I
can't get a USB->Parallel interface to present itself as an LPT device. I think
I'll have to eventually go shopping for an new USB connected EPROM burner
in order to rid myself of the PC (now if only I could rid myself of Microsoft!!).

PS Don't try this with a KeySpan device, It is recognized by OSX but got very
confused in the emulation, to the point where I think the firmware got roached
in it (this device happens to have a little processor in it and runs firmware
to do the USB->Serial translation).

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "drmabuce" <drmabuce@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Jason
> ok i'll try to tackle these, i'm more of a software guy too.
> you hardware gurus feel free to jump in anytime if i f^&k this up!
> ;'>
>
> --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, Jason Proctor
> <jason@> wrote:
> >
> > i'm not really up on what's going on with the concept, having caught
> > the beginning of this thread on sdiy and then lost it until a day or
> > two ago when i learned it had moved here. i have what may be regarded
> > as a few dumb questions.
>
> i suggest that it's worth wading through the message traffic on this
> site to get the big picture. On a project this complex, consensus is
> pretty hard won and there are some folks working on this with a deep
> pool of hands-on expertise. There's a lot of widely applicable info in
> those posts
>
> >
> > - does it have to be rs232 for the computer interface?
> >
> > i've not seen a serial interface other than usb or firewire on a Mac
> > in living memory, and i'd be surprised if it survives on PCs for much
> > longer. however, MIDI's going to be around for a while yet, and
> > presumably USB for a while longer. can we have one of those instead?
> >
>
> i believe we are constrained by the design of the BasicAtomPro
> architecture- which is RS232. So if you are living in MACland, a USB
> to RS232 converter and some sort of PC emulation will probably be
> required. Look for some of Mike Firman's posts. He has some experience
> with MBASIC on a MAC.
> Please keep in mind that the realm of this kind of gadget is
> really neither PC or MAC.... it's PIC...basicstamps..... the little
> 'computer-on-a-chip' gadgets that operate the radial-saw elbow of
> those robots you see on Robot Wars! RS232 is still very much alive in
> that world.
> I find most of my best hints and tips in the hobbyist robot sites
>
>
> > - larry's PSIM layouts look pretty good. are all 8 inputs etc that
> > people are talking about necessary or even supportable by the
> > hardware platform?
> >
>
> 8 ins and outs are supported by Grants basic PCB design. But this is a
> DIY project so you can always 'roll-your-own' and implement fewer
> I/O's if you don't need them.
>
> > as a software tweak and hardware klutz i'm kinda looking forward to a
> > module i can tweak...
> >
>
> it's nice to have the power to implement a complex function with
> something OTHER than just opamps in your toolkit eh?
> Willkommen and have fun!
> -doc
>

Re: matching resistors, will the following procedure work?

Ingredients:
1 precision voltage reference
1 amplifier
1 voltmeter
Resistors to be matched (RTBM)

Feed a small, precisely regulated signal through a voltage divider
made from an RTBM and some other resistor (the "constant"). Feed the
divider's output through the amplifier. Measure the output. Repeat as needed.

The idea, obviously, is to amplify the differences between the RTBM
so that the voltmeter can register those differences. Concerns would
include temperature stability, power supply stability, etc...

So, this may not be good enough for a NASA guidance system, but will
it suffice for this DIY project? As John Lofflink said, we need only
be concerned with relative accuracy.
--
john

I think you're on the right track. Use a voltage reference chip, not your
power supply. Feed this to a high accuracy low voltage offset differential
amplifier with high gain. Your + and - input resistors are the ones to be
matched. If both are attached to the voltage reference then the output is
only the difference between the two and the op amp offsets.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mahoney
> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 8:03 PM
> To: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ComputerVoltageSources] resistor matching, was RE: Calibrated
> Inputs
>
> Re: matching resistors, will the following procedure work?
>
> Ingredients:
> 1 precision voltage reference
> 1 amplifier
> 1 voltmeter
> Resistors to be matched (RTBM)
>
> Feed a small, precisely regulated signal through a voltage divider
> made from an RTBM and some other resistor (the "constant"). Feed the
> divider's output through the amplifier. Measure the output. Repeat as
> needed.
>
> The idea, obviously, is to amplify the differences between the RTBM
> so that the voltmeter can register those differences. Concerns would
> include temperature stability, power supply stability, etc...
>
> So, this may not be good enough for a NASA guidance system, but will
> it suffice for this DIY project? As John Lofflink said, we need only
> be concerned with relative accuracy.
> --
> john
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

You already have a precision voltage source in your analog keyboard or MIDI to CV
converter.

The purpose of the calibrated input is so we can read an analog keyboard input.

5.000 volts would be 5 octaves of keys and we can read each key by it's key voltage.
That way you can play the keyboard into a sequencer, or use it to transpose sequences.
I'm sure there are other applications. You can also read a keyboad directly via MIDI of
course.

With a 5 volt range, each count is ~5 millivolts, a semitone is 0.083 volts, so there are
around 16 counts between semitones.

Assuming bottom C is zero volts. If your keyboard is only 4 octaves then calibrate at 4.000
volts.

It is not so important that it be absolute real world voltage, but it is nice.

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "John Loffink" <jloffink@...> wrote:
>
> I think you're on the right track. Use a voltage reference chip, not your
> power supply. Feed this to a high accuracy low voltage offset differential
> amplifier with high gain. Your + and - input resistors are the ones to be
> matched. If both are attached to the voltage reference then the output is
> only the difference between the two and the op amp offsets.
>
> John Loffink
> The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
> http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
> The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
> http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mahoney
> > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 8:03 PM
> > To: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [ComputerVoltageSources] resistor matching, was RE: Calibrated
> > Inputs
> >
> > Re: matching resistors, will the following procedure work?
> >
> > Ingredients:
> > 1 precision voltage reference
> > 1 amplifier
> > 1 voltmeter
> > Resistors to be matched (RTBM)
> >
> > Feed a small, precisely regulated signal through a voltage divider
> > made from an RTBM and some other resistor (the "constant"). Feed the
> > divider's output through the amplifier. Measure the output. Repeat as
> > needed.
> >
> > The idea, obviously, is to amplify the differences between the RTBM
> > so that the voltmeter can register those differences. Concerns would
> > include temperature stability, power supply stability, etc...
> >
> > So, this may not be good enough for a NASA guidance system, but will
> > it suffice for this DIY project? As John Lofflink said, we need only
> > be concerned with relative accuracy.
> > --
> > john
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

HI All

Given that I'm not an EE or even a decent hobby designer, why is this
calibration such a problem? Why not use trim pots and the Analog
inputs themselves as follows:

First: Ground the input to be calibrated. (This should ALWAYS be a
constant of 0 right?)

Second: Run a small program on the modules CPU to continously return
the value of the converters input via the serial port to a 'telnet'
session on a PC or Mac, followed by a Carriage Return and a Line Feed.
(This will give you a continous dump of the converters value down the
screen.)

Third: Adjust the timpot until you get 0.00... as the returned value,
and it stays that way for a minute or two.

Would'nt this handle it with NO tools of any kind except those we
already need to use the module anyway?

Larry T.


--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Grant Richter"
<grichter@...> wrote:

>
> You already have a precision voltage source in your analog keyboard

or MIDI to CV

> converter.
>
> The purpose of the calibrated input is so we can read an analog

keyboard input.

>
> 5.000 volts would be 5 octaves of keys and we can read each key by

it's key voltage.

> That way you can play the keyboard into a sequencer, or use it to

transpose sequences.

> I'm sure there are other applications. You can also read a keyboad

directly via MIDI of

> course.
>
> With a 5 volt range, each count is ~5 millivolts, a semitone is

0.083 volts, so there are

> around 16 counts between semitones.
>
> Assuming bottom C is zero volts. If your keyboard is only 4 octaves

then calibrate at 4.000

> volts.
>
> It is not so important that it be absolute real world voltage, but

it is nice.

>
> --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "John Loffink"

<jloffink@> wrote:

> >
> > I think you're on the right track. Use a voltage reference chip,

not your

> > power supply. Feed this to a high accuracy low voltage offset

differential

> > amplifier with high gain. Your + and - input resistors are the

ones to be

> > matched. If both are attached to the voltage reference then the

output is

> > only the difference between the two and the op amp offsets.
> >
> > John Loffink
> > The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
> > http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
> > The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
> > http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

John Mahoney

> > > Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 8:03 PM
> > > To: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [ComputerVoltageSources] resistor matching, was RE:

Calibrated

> > > Inputs
> > >
> > > Re: matching resistors, will the following procedure work?
> > >
> > > Ingredients:
> > > 1 precision voltage reference
> > > 1 amplifier
> > > 1 voltmeter
> > > Resistors to be matched (RTBM)
> > >
> > > Feed a small, precisely regulated signal through a voltage divider
> > > made from an RTBM and some other resistor (the "constant"). Feed the
> > > divider's output through the amplifier. Measure the output.

Repeat as

> > > needed.
> > >
> > > The idea, obviously, is to amplify the differences between the RTBM
> > > so that the voltmeter can register those differences. Concerns would
> > > include temperature stability, power supply stability, etc...
> > >
> > > So, this may not be good enough for a NASA guidance system, but will
> > > it suffice for this DIY project? As John Lofflink said, we need only
> > > be concerned with relative accuracy.
> > > --
> > > john

Thinking about it, I believe this would also account for varrainces in
the ADC's thenselves would'nt it?

Larry T.

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Larry T." <larry@...>
wrote:

>
> HI All
>
> Given that I'm not an EE or even a decent hobby designer, why is this
> calibration such a problem? Why not use trim pots and the Analog
> inputs themselves as follows:
>
> First: Ground the input to be calibrated. (This should ALWAYS be a
> constant of 0 right?)
>
> Second: Run a small program on the modules CPU to continously return
> the value of the converters input via the serial port to a 'telnet'
> session on a PC or Mac, followed by a Carriage Return and a Line Feed.
> (This will give you a continous dump of the converters value down the
> screen.)
>
> Third: Adjust the timpot until you get 0.00... as the returned value,
> and it stays that way for a minute or two.
>
> Would'nt this handle it with NO tools of any kind except those we
> already need to use the module anyway?
>
> Larry T.
>

For calibration you need to measure an amplified value, even if the
amplification is 1. You can't do that by grounding the signal. That just
sets the zero null point.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry T.
> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 8:03 PM
> To: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ComputerVoltageSources] Re: resistor matching, was RE:
> Calibrated Inputs
>
> Thinking about it, I believe this would also account for varrainces in
> the ADC's thenselves would'nt it?
>
> Larry T.
>
> --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Larry T." <larry@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > HI All
> >
> > Given that I'm not an EE or even a decent hobby designer, why is this
> > calibration such a problem? Why not use trim pots and the Analog
> > inputs themselves as follows:
> >
> > First: Ground the input to be calibrated. (This should ALWAYS be a
> > constant of 0 right?)
> >
> > Second: Run a small program on the modules CPU to continously return
> > the value of the converters input via the serial port to a 'telnet'
> > session on a PC or Mac, followed by a Carriage Return and a Line Feed.
> > (This will give you a continous dump of the converters value down the
> > screen.)
> >
> > Third: Adjust the timpot until you get 0.00... as the returned value,
> > and it stays that way for a minute or two.
> >
> > Would'nt this handle it with NO tools of any kind except those we
> > already need to use the module anyway?
> >
> > Larry T.
> >

Okay. But could you use the output of a MIDI-CV converter or a CV
keyboard as your reference and still use this method? It should still
be consistant across all inputs right?

LArry

--- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "John Loffink"
<jloffink@...> wrote:

>
> For calibration you need to measure an amplified value, even if the
> amplification is 1. You can't do that by grounding the signal.

That just

> sets the zero null point.
>
> John Loffink
> The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
> http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
> The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
> http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry T.
> > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 8:03 PM
> > To: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [ComputerVoltageSources] Re: resistor matching, was RE:
> > Calibrated Inputs
> >
> > Thinking about it, I believe this would also account for varrainces in
> > the ADC's thenselves would'nt it?
> >
> > Larry T.
> >
> > --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Larry T." <larry@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > HI All
> > >
> > > Given that I'm not an EE or even a decent hobby designer, why is

this

> > > calibration such a problem? Why not use trim pots and the Analog
> > > inputs themselves as follows:
> > >
> > > First: Ground the input to be calibrated. (This should ALWAYS be a
> > > constant of 0 right?)
> > >
> > > Second: Run a small program on the modules CPU to continously return
> > > the value of the converters input via the serial port to a 'telnet'
> > > session on a PC or Mac, followed by a Carriage Return and a Line

Feed.

> > > (This will give you a continous dump of the converters value

down the

> > > screen.)
> > >
> > > Third: Adjust the timpot until you get 0.00... as the returned

value,

> > > and it stays that way for a minute or two.
> > >
> > > Would'nt this handle it with NO tools of any kind except those we
> > > already need to use the module anyway?
> > >
> > > Larry T.
> > >
>

Yes, using a MIDI-CV converter with 12 bit or better resolution, which is
most of them.

John Loffink
The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
http://www.wavemakers-synth.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry T.
> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:17 PM
> To: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ComputerVoltageSources] Re: resistor matching, was RE:
> Calibrated Inputs
>
> Okay. But could you use the output of a MIDI-CV converter or a CV
> keyboard as your reference and still use this method? It should still
> be consistant across all inputs right?
>
> LArry
>
> --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "John Loffink"
> <jloffink@...> wrote:
> >
> > For calibration you need to measure an amplified value, even if the
> > amplification is 1. You can't do that by grounding the signal.
> That just
> > sets the zero null point.
> >
> > John Loffink
> > The Microtonal Synthesis Web Site
> > http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com
> > The Wavemakers Synthesizer Web Site
> > http://www.wavemakers-synth.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry T.
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 8:03 PM
> > > To: ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [ComputerVoltageSources] Re: resistor matching, was RE:
> > > Calibrated Inputs
> > >
> > > Thinking about it, I believe this would also account for varrainces in
> > > the ADC's thenselves would'nt it?
> > >
> > > Larry T.
> > >
> > > --- In ComputerVoltageSources@yahoogroups.com, "Larry T." <larry@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > HI All
> > > >
> > > > Given that I'm not an EE or even a decent hobby designer, why is
> this
> > > > calibration such a problem? Why not use trim pots and the Analog
> > > > inputs themselves as follows:
> > > >
> > > > First: Ground the input to be calibrated. (This should ALWAYS be a
> > > > constant of 0 right?)
> > > >
> > > > Second: Run a small program on the modules CPU to continously return
> > > > the value of the converters input via the serial port to a 'telnet'
> > > > session on a PC or Mac, followed by a Carriage Return and a Line
> Feed.
> > > > (This will give you a continous dump of the converters value
> down the
> > > > screen.)
> > > >
> > > > Third: Adjust the timpot until you get 0.00... as the returned
> value,
> > > > and it stays that way for a minute or two.
> > > >
> > > > Would'nt this handle it with NO tools of any kind except those we
> > > > already need to use the module anyway?
> > > >
> > > > Larry T.
> > > >
> >
>
>