Emu XL-7 & MP-7 User's Group

Hi !

XL7, OS 2.0.
Connect both in/out to a MIDI interface or patchbay which doesn't have
the MIDI realtime msgs filtered. Enable "Merge MIDI In to Out" on the
XL7, it doesn't matter which out port, A or B which is even more weird
than what happens next. Start XL7 by pressing PLAY. Now XL7 will nicely
transmit MIDI Start message. If the MIDI interface transmits it back to
the XL7's MIDI In port a nasty MIDI loop will occur which will kill the
XL7 in approx. 10 seconds. Complete freeze. If you are quick enough to
pull the cable the XL7 is able to cope with it (buffer size big enough
to hold approx. 8-10 seconds worth of MIDI msgs ?)

100% percent reproduceable.
Workaround - filter the outgoing MIDI realtime on the MIDI
interface/patchbay towards the XL7's MIDI In. Keep an eye on
it in live situations - I learnt it the hard way ...

Regards:
     Zsolt



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Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@...> wrote:  Hi !

XL7, OS 2.0.
Connect both in/out to a MIDI interface or patchbay which doesn't have
the MIDI realtime msgs filtered. Enable "Merge MIDI In to Out" on the
XL7, it doesn't matter which out port, A or B which is even more weird
than what happens next. Start XL7 by pressing PLAY. Now XL7 will nicely
transmit MIDI Start message. If the MIDI interface transmits it back to
the XL7's MIDI In port a nasty MIDI loop will occur which will kill the
XL7 in approx. 10 seconds. Complete freeze. If you are quick enough to
pull the cable the XL7 is able to cope with it (buffer size big enough
to hold approx. 8-10 seconds worth of MIDI msgs ?)

100% percent reproduceable.
Workaround - filter the outgoing MIDI realtime on the MIDI
interface/patchbay towards the XL7's MIDI In. Keep an eye on
it in live situations - I learnt it the hard way ...

Regards:
Zsolt



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thanks man! ill try that 


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I guess the only real reason why you might want to do that is if you 
plan on going beyond what the programmed parameter limits of the cc / 
sysex / midi note knobs allow - is this the case - why is it that you 
do it ? 



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Jose Alvarenga <sistemazero2002@y...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@g...> wrote:  Hi !
> 
> XL7, OS 2.0.
> Connect both in/out to a MIDI interface or patchbay which doesn't 
have
> the MIDI realtime msgs filtered. Enable "Merge MIDI In to Out" on 
the
> XL7, it doesn't matter which out port, A or B which is even more 
weird
> than what happens next. Start XL7 by pressing PLAY. Now XL7 will 
nicely
> transmit MIDI Start message. If the MIDI interface transmits it 
back to
> the XL7's MIDI In port a nasty MIDI loop will occur which will kill 
the
> XL7 in approx. 10 seconds. Complete freeze. If you are quick enough 
to
> pull the cable the XL7 is able to cope with it (buffer size big 
enough

> to hold approx. 8-10 seconds worth of MIDI msgs ?)
> 
> 100% percent reproduceable.
> Workaround - filter the outgoing MIDI realtime on the MIDI
> interface/patchbay towards the XL7's MIDI In. Keep an eye on
> it in live situations - I learnt it the hard way ...
> 
> Regards:
> Zsolt
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail
> +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More +++
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks man! ill try that 
> 
> 
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>

So wait, creating an intentional MIDI loop is a bug in the XL-7? 
Hardly!  If you create a MIDI loop, every single product on the market
will do MIDI loop things.  If there is a bug (other than in your setup)
it's the fact that MOTU (I'm presuming that's what you have) patchbays
don't route realtime messages, they multicast them.  It's intentional
on their part, but it's really annoying.

Anyway, the solution is don't merge in to out, and filter reception of
start/stop on devices you don't want to recieve it.

Happy holidays,
  -Aaron

--- Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@...> wrote:

> Hi !
> 
> XL7, OS 2.0.
> Connect both in/out to a MIDI interface or patchbay which doesn't
> have
> the MIDI realtime msgs filtered. Enable "Merge MIDI In to Out" on the
> XL7, it doesn't matter which out port, A or B which is even more
> weird
> than what happens next. Start XL7 by pressing PLAY. Now XL7 will
> nicely
> transmit MIDI Start message. If the MIDI interface transmits it back
> to
> the XL7's MIDI In port a nasty MIDI loop will occur which will kill
> the
> XL7 in approx. 10 seconds. Complete freeze. If you are quick enough
> to
> pull the cable the XL7 is able to cope with it (buffer size big
> enough
> to hold approx. 8-10 seconds worth of MIDI msgs ?)
> 
> 100% percent reproduceable.
> Workaround - filter the outgoing MIDI realtime on the MIDI
> interface/patchbay towards the XL7's MIDI In. Keep an eye on
> it in live situations - I learnt it the hard way ...
> 
> Regards:
>      Zsolt

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Hi,

there are several reasons why I want to use it.

For example:
XL7 + Waldorf XTk + Waldorf Pulse 
The Waldorfs use CC50 as cutoff CC. No way to send it
from XL7 :((( you are right, that's a reason why I do it.

Otherwise it's not a big deal really because I can filter
the incoming MIDI realtime for the XL7 but it came to me
as a surprise that XL7 would die because of this.

Just watch out for no retransmission of MIDI realtime.
I took care for no MIDI Note, CC, and sysex retransmission
but assumed realtime will be no problem.
Outcome: complete freeze, embarrasment, boo-hoo from the
audience.  

Regards:
     Zsolt







> --- Urspr\ufffdngliche Nachricht ---
> Von: "lifeistheformofenergy" <lifeistheformofenergy@...>
> An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [xl7] Re: a nasty bug
> Datum: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 02:06:38 -0000
> 
> I guess the only real reason why you might want to do that is if you 
> plan on going beyond what the programmed parameter limits of the cc / 
> sysex / midi note knobs allow - is this the case - why is it that you 
> do it ? 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Jose Alvarenga <sistemazero2002@y...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@g...> wrote:  Hi !
> > 
> > XL7, OS 2.0.
> > Connect both in/out to a MIDI interface or patchbay which doesn't 
> have
> > the MIDI realtime msgs filtered. Enable "Merge MIDI In to Out" on 
> the
> > XL7, it doesn't matter which out port, A or B which is even more 
> weird
> > than what happens next. Start XL7 by pressing PLAY. Now XL7 will 
> nicely
> > transmit MIDI Start message. If the MIDI interface transmits it 
> back to
> > the XL7's MIDI In port a nasty MIDI loop will occur which will kill 
> the
> > XL7 in approx. 10 seconds. Complete freeze. If you are quick enough 
> to
> > pull the cable the XL7 is able to cope with it (buffer size big 
> enough
> > to hold approx. 8-10 seconds worth of MIDI msgs ?)
> > 
> > 100% percent reproduceable.
> > Workaround - filter the outgoing MIDI realtime on the MIDI
> > interface/patchbay towards the XL7's MIDI In. Keep an eye on
> > it in live situations - I learnt it the hard way ...
> > 
> > Regards:
> > Zsolt
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > thanks man! ill try that 
> > 
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

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Hi Aaron,
I wasn't creating a MIDI loop. At least not intentionally.
I took great care that every kind of MIDI message (except
realtime) is properly routed and doesn't get back to XL7.
My MIDI interface/patchbay is an Emagic AMT-8.
I had to merge the MIDI In to Out because in the mentioned
case I wanted to tweak parameters on a Waldorf Pulse (CC50
as Cutoff) while recording movements in XL7, using a
Waldorf XTk as masterkeyboard (CC assignments same as on
the Pulse where applicable). Since CC33-63 is nonexistent
on the XL7 this was the only solution.

Anyway, since I can overcome the problem is no big deal
but I assumed realtime messages are handled correctly (for
example, after an initial MIDI start following start msgs
are discared until a stop message received/transmitted).

Regards:
      Zsolt



> Von: Aaron Eppolito <synthesis77@...>
> An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [xl7] (not) a nasty bug
> Datum: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:24:47 -0800 (PST)
> 
> So wait, creating an intentional MIDI loop is a bug in the XL-7? 
> Hardly!  If you create a MIDI loop, every single product on the market
> will do MIDI loop things.  If there is a bug (other than in your setup)
> it's the fact that MOTU (I'm presuming that's what you have) patchbays
> don't route realtime messages, they multicast them.  It's intentional
> on their part, but it's really annoying.
> 
> Anyway, the solution is don't merge in to out, and filter reception of
> start/stop on devices you don't want to recieve it.
> 
> Happy holidays,
>   -Aaron
> 
> --- Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hi !
> > 
> > XL7, OS 2.0.
> > Connect both in/out to a MIDI interface or patchbay which doesn't
> > have
> > the MIDI realtime msgs filtered. Enable "Merge MIDI In to Out" on the
> > XL7, it doesn't matter which out port, A or B which is even more
> > weird
> > than what happens next. Start XL7 by pressing PLAY. Now XL7 will
> > nicely
> > transmit MIDI Start message. If the MIDI interface transmits it back
> > to
> > the XL7's MIDI In port a nasty MIDI loop will occur which will kill
> > the
> > XL7 in approx. 10 seconds. Complete freeze. If you are quick enough
> > to
> > pull the cable the XL7 is able to cope with it (buffer size big
> > enough
> > to hold approx. 8-10 seconds worth of MIDI msgs ?)
> > 
> > 100% percent reproduceable.
> > Workaround - filter the outgoing MIDI realtime on the MIDI
> > interface/patchbay towards the XL7's MIDI In. Keep an eye on
> > it in live situations - I learnt it the hard way ...
> > 
> > Regards:
> >      Zsolt
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

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I think I get your setup.  You really don't want to be using Merge in->out.  That's really only for people without the luxury of a patchbay.  Since you do have one, use it to route cc messages from the XTk to *both* the XL7 and the Pulse.  You'll get the same behavior as Merge I>O without the MIDI loop.
   
  That said, the assumption in the second paragraph is what's not right.  Per the MIDI spec, EVERY time you get a start message you are supposed to return to the beginning, even if you're already playing.  By looping the start message over and over, you're essentially telling the XL7 to restart the sequence every millisecond (yipes!).  As you've no doubt experienced, the XL7 doesn't like that.  Amusingly, if you let it go till it processes every message that came in, it'd probably recover.  That might, however, take quite a while.
   
  Cheers,
    -Aaron

Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@...> wrote:
  Hi Aaron,
I wasn't creating a MIDI loop. At least not intentionally.
I took great care that every kind of MIDI message (except
realtime) is properly routed and doesn't get back to XL7.
My MIDI interface/patchbay is an Emagic AMT-8.
I had to merge the MIDI In to Out because in the mentioned
case I wanted to tweak parameters on a Waldorf Pulse (CC50
as Cutoff) while recording movements in XL7, using a
Waldorf XTk as masterkeyboard (CC assignments same as on
the Pulse where applicable). Since CC33-63 is nonexistent
on the XL7 this was the only solution.

Anyway, since I can overcome the problem is no big deal
but I assumed realtime messages are handled correctly (for
example, after an initial MIDI start following start msgs
are discared until a stop message received/transmitted).

Regards:
Zsolt



> Von: Aaron Eppolito 
> An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [xl7] (not) a nasty bug
> Datum: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:24:47 -0800 (PST)
> 
> So wait, creating an intentional MIDI loop is a bug in the XL-7? 
> Hardly! If you create a MIDI loop, every single product on the market
> will do MIDI loop things. If there is a bug (other than in your setup)
> it's the fact that MOTU (I'm presuming that's what you have) patchbays
> don't route realtime messages, they multicast them. It's intentional
> on their part, but it's really annoying.
> 
> Anyway, the solution is don't merge in to out, and filter reception of
> start/stop on devices you don't want to recieve it.
> 
> Happy holidays,
> -Aaron
> 
> --- Zsolt Szabo wrote:
> 
> > Hi !
> > 
> > XL7, OS 2.0.
> > Connect both in/out to a MIDI interface or patchbay which doesn't
> > have
> > the MIDI realtime msgs filtered. Enable "Merge MIDI In to Out" on the
> > XL7, it doesn't matter which out port, A or B which is even more
> > weird
> > than what happens next. Start XL7 by pressing PLAY. Now XL7 will
> > nicely
> > transmit MIDI Start message. If the MIDI interface transmits it back
> > to
> > the XL7's MIDI In port a nasty MIDI loop will occur which will kill
> > the
> > XL7 in approx. 10 seconds. Complete freeze. If you are quick enough
> > to
> > pull the cable the XL7 is able to cope with it (buffer size big
> > enough
> > to hold approx. 8-10 seconds worth of MIDI msgs ?)
> > 
> > 100% percent reproduceable.
> > Workaround - filter the outgoing MIDI realtime on the MIDI
> > interface/patchbay towards the XL7's MIDI In. Keep an eye on
> > it in live situations - I learnt it the hard way ...
> > 
> > Regards:
> > Zsolt
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Aaron,

of course, you're right.
AMT8 is capable the routing you've mentioned.
The point here is that the actual setup is much bigger
than I described and I'm out of free MIDI channels.
I thought I'd route the XTk through my XL7 and I use
the XL7 to route the MIDI to the wanted instrument,
switching tracks on XL7.
All my MIDI i/o is used on the AMT8.
I can't do the proper routing in the AMT8 because
for example MIDI channel 1 is used in my XTk,
microWave 1 and Yamaha FS1R as well. So I can't transmit
always the info to the 3 units and set them to different
MIDI channels because as I said all the available channels
are used and unfortunately AMT8 can't do combined routing
based on MIDI port+channel.

Regarding my MIDI knowledge you are also right, I made
an assumption and it may not relate with reality at all.

Thanks for the info,
     Zsolt



> --- Urspr\ufffdngliche Nachricht ---
> Von: Aaron Eppolito <synthesis77@...>
> An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: [xl7] (not) a nasty bug
> Datum: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:04:51 -0800 (PST)
> 
> I think I get your setup.  You really don't want to be using Merge
> in->out.  That's really only for people without the luxury of a patchbay. 
Since
> you do have one, use it to route cc messages from the XTk to *both* the
XL7
> and the Pulse.  You'll get the same behavior as Merge I>O without the MIDI
> loop.
>    
>   That said, the assumption in the second paragraph is what's not right. 
> Per the MIDI spec, EVERY time you get a start message you are supposed to
> return to the beginning, even if you're already playing.  By looping the
> start message over and over, you're essentially telling the XL7 to restart
the
> sequence every millisecond (yipes!).  As you've no doubt experienced, the
> XL7 doesn't like that.  Amusingly, if you let it go till it processes
every
> message that came in, it'd probably recover.  That might, however, take
> quite a while.
>    
>   Cheers,
>     -Aaron
> 
> Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@...> wrote:
>   Hi Aaron,
> I wasn't creating a MIDI loop. At least not intentionally.
> I took great care that every kind of MIDI message (except
> realtime) is properly routed and doesn't get back to XL7.
> My MIDI interface/patchbay is an Emagic AMT-8.
> I had to merge the MIDI In to Out because in the mentioned
> case I wanted to tweak parameters on a Waldorf Pulse (CC50
> as Cutoff) while recording movements in XL7, using a
> Waldorf XTk as masterkeyboard (CC assignments same as on
> the Pulse where applicable). Since CC33-63 is nonexistent
> on the XL7 this was the only solution.
> 
> Anyway, since I can overcome the problem is no big deal
> but I assumed realtime messages are handled correctly (for
> example, after an initial MIDI start following start msgs
> are discared until a stop message received/transmitted).
> 
> Regards:
> Zsolt
> 
> 
> 
> > Von: Aaron Eppolito 
> > An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: Re: [xl7] (not) a nasty bug
> > Datum: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:24:47 -0800 (PST)
> > 
> > So wait, creating an intentional MIDI loop is a bug in the XL-7? 
> > Hardly! If you create a MIDI loop, every single product on the market
> > will do MIDI loop things. If there is a bug (other than in your setup)
> > it's the fact that MOTU (I'm presuming that's what you have) patchbays
> > don't route realtime messages, they multicast them. It's intentional
> > on their part, but it's really annoying.
> > 
> > Anyway, the solution is don't merge in to out, and filter reception of
> > start/stop on devices you don't want to recieve it.
> > 
> > Happy holidays,
> > -Aaron
> > 
> > --- Zsolt Szabo wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi !
> > > 
> > > XL7, OS 2.0.
> > > Connect both in/out to a MIDI interface or patchbay which doesn't
> > > have
> > > the MIDI realtime msgs filtered. Enable "Merge MIDI In to Out" on the
> > > XL7, it doesn't matter which out port, A or B which is even more
> > > weird
> > > than what happens next. Start XL7 by pressing PLAY. Now XL7 will
> > > nicely
> > > transmit MIDI Start message. If the MIDI interface transmits it back
> > > to
> > > the XL7's MIDI In port a nasty MIDI loop will occur which will kill
> > > the
> > > XL7 in approx. 10 seconds. Complete freeze. If you are quick enough
> > > to
> > > pull the cable the XL7 is able to cope with it (buffer size big
> > > enough
> > > to hold approx. 8-10 seconds worth of MIDI msgs ?)
> > > 
> > > 100% percent reproduceable.
> > > Workaround - filter the outgoing MIDI realtime on the MIDI
> > > interface/patchbay towards the XL7's MIDI In. Keep an eye on
> > > it in live situations - I learnt it the hard way ...
> > > 
> > > Regards:
> > > Zsolt
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

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I ran out of MIDI I/O in my patchbay too.  I got tired of breaking down MIDI channel allocations and then still having to merge outputs when I needed PC access to the instrument so wound up just adding another MIDI patchbay.....it just seemed not worth a lot of the work and extra mergers to get enough I/O without moving cables around.....

Bob
Corona/Riverside, CA


-----Original Message-----

>From: Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@...>
>Sent: Dec 22, 2005 11:42 AM
>To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [xl7] (not) a nasty bug
>
>Hi Aaron,
>
>of course, you're right.
>AMT8 is capable the routing you've mentioned.
>The point here is that the actual setup is much bigger
>than I described and I'm out of free MIDI channels.
>I thought I'd route the XTk through my XL7 and I use
>the XL7 to route the MIDI to the wanted instrument,
>switching tracks on XL7.
>All my MIDI i/o is used on the AMT8.
>I can't do the proper routing in the AMT8 because
>for example MIDI channel 1 is used in my XTk,
>microWave 1 and Yamaha FS1R as well. So I can't transmit
>always the info to the 3 units and set them to different
>MIDI channels because as I said all the available channels
>are used and unfortunately AMT8 can't do combined routing
>based on MIDI port+channel.
>
>Regarding my MIDI knowledge you are also right, I made
>an assumption and it may not relate with reality at all.
>
>Thanks for the info,
>     Zsolt
>
>
>
>> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
>> Von: Aaron Eppolito <synthesis77@...>
>> An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
>> Betreff: Re: [xl7] (not) a nasty bug
>> Datum: Thu, 22 Dec 2005 08:04:51 -0800 (PST)
>> 
>> I think I get your setup.  You really don't want to be using Merge
>> in->out.  That's really only for people without the luxury of a patchbay. 
>Since
>> you do have one, use it to route cc messages from the XTk to *both* the
>XL7
>> and the Pulse.  You'll get the same behavior as Merge I>O without the MIDI
>> loop.
>>    
>>   That said, the assumption in the second paragraph is what's not right. 
>> Per the MIDI spec, EVERY time you get a start message you are supposed to
>> return to the beginning, even if you're already playing.  By looping the
>> start message over and over, you're essentially telling the XL7 to restart
>the
>> sequence every millisecond (yipes!).  As you've no doubt experienced, the
>> XL7 doesn't like that.  Amusingly, if you let it go till it processes
>every
>> message that came in, it'd probably recover.  That might, however, take
>> quite a while.
>>    
>>   Cheers,
>>     -Aaron
>> 
>> Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@...> wrote:
>>   Hi Aaron,
>> I wasn't creating a MIDI loop. At least not intentionally.
>> I took great care that every kind of MIDI message (except
>> realtime) is properly routed and doesn't get back to XL7.
>> My MIDI interface/patchbay is an Emagic AMT-8.
>> I had to merge the MIDI In to Out because in the mentioned
>> case I wanted to tweak parameters on a Waldorf Pulse (CC50
>> as Cutoff) while recording movements in XL7, using a
>> Waldorf XTk as masterkeyboard (CC assignments same as on
>> the Pulse where applicable). Since CC33-63 is nonexistent
>> on the XL7 this was the only solution.
>> 
>> Anyway, since I can overcome the problem is no big deal
>> but I assumed realtime messages are handled correctly (for
>> example, after an initial MIDI start following start msgs
>> are discared until a stop message received/transmitted).
>> 
>> Regards:
>> Zsolt
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > Von: Aaron Eppolito 
>> > An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
>> > Betreff: Re: [xl7] (not) a nasty bug
>> > Datum: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 20:24:47 -0800 (PST)
>> > 
>> > So wait, creating an intentional MIDI loop is a bug in the XL-7? 
>> > Hardly! If you create a MIDI loop, every single product on the market
>> > will do MIDI loop things. If there is a bug (other than in your setup)
>> > it's the fact that MOTU (I'm presuming that's what you have) patchbays
>> > don't route realtime messages, they multicast them. It's intentional
>> > on their part, but it's really annoying.
>> > 
>> > Anyway, the solution is don't merge in to out, and filter reception of
>> > start/stop on devices you don't want to recieve it.
>> > 
>> > Happy holidays,
>> > -Aaron
>> > 
>> > --- Zsolt Szabo wrote:
>> > 
>> > > Hi !
>> > > 
>> > > XL7, OS 2.0.
>> > > Connect both in/out to a MIDI interface or patchbay which doesn't
>> > > have
>> > > the MIDI realtime msgs filtered. Enable "Merge MIDI In to Out" on the
>> > > XL7, it doesn't matter which out port, A or B which is even more
>> > > weird
>> > > than what happens next. Start XL7 by pressing PLAY. Now XL7 will
>> > > nicely
>> > > transmit MIDI Start message. If the MIDI interface transmits it back
>> > > to
>> > > the XL7's MIDI In port a nasty MIDI loop will occur which will kill
>> > > the
>> > > XL7 in approx. 10 seconds. Complete freeze. If you are quick enough
>> > > to
>> > > pull the cable the XL7 is able to cope with it (buffer size big
>> > > enough
>> > > to hold approx. 8-10 seconds worth of MIDI msgs ?)
>> > > 
>> > > 100% percent reproduceable.
>> > > Workaround - filter the outgoing MIDI realtime on the MIDI
>> > > interface/patchbay towards the XL7's MIDI In. Keep an eye on
>> > > it in live situations - I learnt it the hard way ...
>> > > 
>> > > Regards:
>> > > Zsolt
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Re: use of OS2.0 midi merge causing midi loop lock-up.

I agree will what seems to be the problem here with one possible 
exception.  To the best of my knowledge (please let me know if I am 
wrong), midi merge [MERGE MIDI IN TO OUT] does NOT pass incoming midi 
clock [start, stop, continue, and timing data] through either of the 
midi outs.

If I am right (and I don't currently have a setup to test it), if the 
loop lock-up were caused by sending the start command back into the E-
Mu, simply telling it to ignore EXTERNAL SONG START/STOP would solve 
the problem. (My guess is that's not the cause.)

It seems more likely that continuous midi timing data is being fed 
back. If so, shouldn't turning TRANSMIT MIDI CLOCK, solve that 
problem?

From the setup described, I didn't see where external gear needed 
midi clock info from the XL.  (Did I miss it?)

--Steve 

PS:

> Since CC33-63 is nonexistent on the XL7 this was the only solution.

They are not non-existent. You can assign CC numbers from 1 to 119 
inclusive.

Hi Steve,
see my comments between your lines ....


> Von: "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...>
> An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [xl7] Re: (not) a nasty bug + CC33-63 issue
> Datum: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:13:21 -0000
> 
> Re: use of OS2.0 midi merge causing midi loop lock-up.
> 
> I agree will what seems to be the problem here with one possible 
> exception.  To the best of my knowledge (please let me know if I am 
> wrong), midi merge [MERGE MIDI IN TO OUT] does NOT pass incoming midi 
> clock [start, stop, continue, and timing data] through either of the 
> midi outs.

That's not the case unfortunately. Or I dont know what happens here...

 
> If I am right (and I don't currently have a setup to test it), if the 
> loop lock-up were caused by sending the start command back into the E-
> Mu, simply telling it to ignore EXTERNAL SONG START/STOP would solve 
> the problem. (My guess is that's not the cause.)

I disabled it and no change ...

> 
> It seems more likely that continuous midi timing data is being fed 
> back. If so, shouldn't turning TRANSMIT MIDI CLOCK, solve that 
> problem?

I have to transmit MIDI clock to my other instruments. The synths
need it for arp, lfo and other timing sensitive elements ...
 
> >From the setup described, I didn't see where external gear needed 
> midi clock info from the XL.  (Did I miss it?)

See above.
I will do some further test here.
What makes me curious is that when I chose to merge MIDI in to out
on output port B it happened as well, however my B port isn't connected
to anything. Hm....

> 
> --Steve 
> 
> PS:
> 
> > Since CC33-63 is nonexistent on the XL7 this was the only solution.
> 
> They are not non-existent. You can assign CC numbers from 1 to 119 
> inclusive. 

Really ? Maybe I'm blind but when I tried to chose the CC number
for the knob after 32 it jumped to 64 and in-between values were
omitted. Could you tell me where can I do it ? 

Regards:
      Zsolt

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--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "Zsolt Szabo" <Zsolt.Szabo@g...> wrote:
>
> Hi Steve,
> see my comments between your lines ....

[snip]

I may have some time this week to test some things refarding clock 
issues. If I can make some time I will try to simulate the kind of 
setup you have (although with diffrent gear and software).

As I understand it, you want (1) clock and note data going out from 
the E-Mu to other gear and (2) CC data coming from one piece of gear 
going back into the E-Mubut without feeding the clock data?  Is that 
right? What other design features are important to the setup? Where 
do you currently have your midi interface/router? 

I should add that I have the P2500, but from what I understand, for 
the issues here realted to OS2.0, that shouldn't make a difference.  
(If anyone knows otherwise, please speak up.)


> > PS:
> > 
> > > Since CC33-63 is nonexistent on the XL7 this was the only 
solution.
> > 
> > They are not non-existent. You can assign CC numbers from 1 to
> > 119 inclusive. 
> 
> Really ? Maybe I'm blind but when I tried to chose the CC number
> for the knob after 32 it jumped to 64 and in-between values were
> omitted. Could you tell me where can I do it ? 

Here's what I do on the P2500 with OS2.0:

1. Press the CONTROLLERS button.
2. Set the knobs to PROGRAM.
3. Select a knob K1 . . K16.
4. Move cursor to second line: Ctrl: 1

I can assign each knob from CC 1 to CC 119. Each knob can be assigned 
to the Basic channel, or channels 01A --> 16B. Each can be set to 
send CC data to the internal synth engine, external gear, both 
internal and external, and the sequencer. I believe in seq mode, the 
channel setting of individual knobs is irrelevant.

Setting the knobs to seq in programmable mode allows you to record 
the CCs into your tracks. So I ran a test of the CC33-63 issue. The E-
Mu sequencer does indeed record all CCs from 1 to 119 inclusive when 
the programmable knob is set to send knob data to seq. I assume it 
will also send the same CC data to external gear if set to ext or 
both. 

Do you have OS2.0?

--STeve

> Von: "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...>
> An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [xl7] Re: (not) a nasty bug + CC33-63 issue
> Datum: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:21:17 -0000
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "Zsolt Szabo" <Zsolt.Szabo@g...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> > see my comments between your lines ....
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I may have some time this week to test some things refarding clock 
> issues. If I can make some time I will try to simulate the kind of 
> setup you have (although with diffrent gear and software).
> 
> As I understand it, you want (1) clock and note data going out from 
> the E-Mu to other gear and (2) CC data coming from one piece of gear 
> going back into the E-Mubut without feeding the clock data?  Is that 
> right? What other design features are important to the setup? Where 
> do you currently have your midi interface/router? 


Currently the Emu is the master sending note, cc and clock data to
other stuff. The Emu is wired to one of the ports of AMT8, other
stuff is connected to other AMT8 ports, using up all the available ports.
Waldorf XTk is the masterkeyboard, although Emu is used too.
Emu is set to send CC and note data on the MIDI out, but I tried with
those disabled, too.
So I want to be able to send data from XTk through Emu (because I want
to record it as well) to other synths. On the Emu I select the
respective track to route XTk's data, using rechannelize input always
and tracks set up so they play external only with proper MIDI channel
assignment.


> I should add that I have the P2500, but from what I understand, for 
> the issues here realted to OS2.0, that shouldn't make a difference.  
> (If anyone knows otherwise, please speak up.)
> 
> 
> > > PS:
> > > 
> > > > Since CC33-63 is nonexistent on the XL7 this was the only 
> solution.
> > > 
> > > They are not non-existent. You can assign CC numbers from 1 to
> > > 119 inclusive. 
> > 
> > Really ? Maybe I'm blind but when I tried to chose the CC number
> > for the knob after 32 it jumped to 64 and in-between values were
> > omitted. Could you tell me where can I do it ? 
> 
> Here's what I do on the P2500 with OS2.0:
> 
> 1. Press the CONTROLLERS button.
> 2. Set the knobs to PROGRAM.
> 3. Select a knob K1 . . K16.
> 4. Move cursor to second line: Ctrl: 1
> 
> I can assign each knob from CC 1 to CC 119. Each knob can be assigned 
> to the Basic channel, or channels 01A --> 16B. Each can be set to 
> send CC data to the internal synth engine, external gear, both 
> internal and external, and the sequencer. I believe in seq mode, the 
> channel setting of individual knobs is irrelevant.
> 
> Setting the knobs to seq in programmable mode allows you to record 
> the CCs into your tracks. So I ran a test of the CC33-63 issue. The E-
> Mu sequencer does indeed record all CCs from 1 to 119 inclusive when 
> the programmable knob is set to send knob data to seq. I assume it 
> will also send the same CC data to external gear if set to ext or 
> both. 
> 
> Do you have OS2.0?


Yes, I have OS 2.0. I'll make another test tonight but when I tried
it was impossible to get CC 33-63 set up.
Thanks for the help ...
        Zsolt


> --STeve
> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

-- 
Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch?
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Is the keyboard going into the E-Mu directly, or is it going into the 
AMT8?  If its going to the AMT8 first, is there any reason why you 
can't do a midi daisy chain as follows:

Keyboard [midi out] --> E-Mu [midi in]
E-Mu [midi out] --> AMT8 ---> other synth gear?

--Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "Zsolt Szabo" <Zsolt.Szabo@g...> wrote:

> Currently the Emu is the master sending note, cc and clock data to
> other stuff. The Emu is wired to one of the ports of AMT8, other
> stuff is connected to other AMT8 ports, using up all the available
> ports. Waldorf XTk is the masterkeyboard, although Emu is used too.
> Emu is set to send CC and note data on the MIDI out, but I tried
> with those disabled, too.

> So I want to be able to send data from XTk through Emu (because I
> want to record it as well) to other synths. On the Emu I select the
> respective track to route XTk's data, using rechannelize input
> always and tracks set up so they play external only with proper
> MIDI channel assignment.
>

Hi Steve,
the XTk is going into the AMT8. It's like this because I want
to be able to control all the other gear while omitting the 
Emu. The composing process is using a computer as well with
sequencing software and here I need the XTk too.
I could do the daisy chain but then I would have serious problems
with the SoundDiver I'm using for programming the synths (tried
and tested - it's very unreliable, it might be SD's fault ...)
Regards:
      Zsolt



> --- Urspr\ufffdngliche Nachricht ---
> Von: "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...>
> An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [xl7] Re: (not) a nasty bug + CC33-63 issue
> Datum: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:14:47 -0000
> 
> Is the keyboard going into the E-Mu directly, or is it going into the 
> AMT8?  If its going to the AMT8 first, is there any reason why you 
> can't do a midi daisy chain as follows:
> 
> Keyboard [midi out] --> E-Mu [midi in]
> E-Mu [midi out] --> AMT8 ---> other synth gear?
> 
> --Steve
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "Zsolt Szabo" <Zsolt.Szabo@g...> wrote:
> 
> > Currently the Emu is the master sending note, cc and clock data to
> > other stuff. The Emu is wired to one of the ports of AMT8, other
> > stuff is connected to other AMT8 ports, using up all the available
> > ports. Waldorf XTk is the masterkeyboard, although Emu is used too.
> > Emu is set to send CC and note data on the MIDI out, but I tried
> > with those disabled, too.
> 
> > So I want to be able to send data from XTk through Emu (because I
> > want to record it as well) to other synths. On the Emu I select the
> > respective track to route XTk's data, using rechannelize input
> > always and tracks set up so they play external only with proper
> > MIDI channel assignment.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

-- 
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I won't get into your method or what you are trying to do but I will say you might be  using the wrong tools for what you are trying to do.
  Instead of trying to use the AMT8 as your point of routing use it as your computer interface and get something like the MIDIMAN THRU 3x8 (they also had an 8x8 version) it should allow you to do what you are trying to do more effectively and without the headaches.
   
  It will give you 3 MIDI inputs (A/B/C) and 8 MIDI outputs (1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8) and each of the 8 outs has a selector switch to pick which input is being feed to it.
   
  If you connected the Waldorf to "A", the XL7 to "B" and the computer out to "C" you already have functional routing that you could selectably distribute to your 8 outs and it wouldn't be dependent on the XL7's status.
  It would be a simple flip of a switch to determine what goes where and in most cases the switches would stay set.
   
  Seems like that would be a better even if to feed the AMT.
   
  Might want to look into it.
  I have felt the 3x8 to be one of the most helpful things I have added to the studio in all these years.

Zsolt Szabo <Zsolt.Szabo@...> wrote:
  Hi Steve,
the XTk is going into the AMT8. It's like this because I want
to be able to control all the other gear while omitting the 
Emu. The composing process is using a computer as well with
sequencing software and here I need the XTk too.
I could do the daisy chain but then I would have serious problems
with the SoundDiver I'm using for programming the synths (tried
and tested - it's very unreliable, it might be SD's fault ...)
Regards:
      Zsolt



> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> Von: "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...>
> An: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [xl7] Re: (not) a nasty bug + CC33-63 issue
> Datum: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:14:47 -0000
> 
> Is the keyboard going into the E-Mu directly, or is it going into the 
> AMT8?  If its going to the AMT8 first, is there any reason why you 
> can't do a midi daisy chain as follows:
> 
> Keyboard [midi out] --> E-Mu [midi in]
> E-Mu [midi out] --> AMT8 ---> other synth gear?
> 
> --Steve
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "Zsolt Szabo" <Zsolt.Szabo@g...> wrote:
> 
> > Currently the Emu is the master sending note, cc and clock data to
> > other stuff. The Emu is wired to one of the ports of AMT8, other
> > stuff is connected to other AMT8 ports, using up all the available
> > ports. Waldorf XTk is the masterkeyboard, although Emu is used too.
> > Emu is set to send CC and note data on the MIDI out, but I tried
> > with those disabled, too.
> 
> > So I want to be able to send data from XTk through Emu (because I
> > want to record it as well) to other synths. On the Emu I select the
> > respective track to route XTk's data, using rechannelize input
> > always and tracks set up so they play external only with proper
> > MIDI channel assignment.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 

-- 
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