MOTM

I think it's the Kawai, which I have never used.

Someone once told me though that you basically manipulate vertical bars (128
of them) on screen. That's setting up a static harmonic series... I assume
they could then be modulated, or morphed, or something.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Brousseau, Paul E (Paul) [mailto:noise@...] 
Sent:	Tuesday, 05 December, 2000 12:30 PM
To:	'motm@egroups.com'
Subject:	RE: [motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 910 Nice
Job  Paul !!)

I like the idea of additive synthesis.  The only "successful" additive synth
I'm aware of is either the Kawai or Kurzweil line (I forget which).  I know
these are digital, but how are patches constructed in those?  Do you
literally sit down and program each of the 128 oscillators, or is there a
bunched scheme (as you propose) going on?

I like the idea of additive synthesis.  The only "successful" additive synth
I'm aware of is either the Kawai or Kurzweil line (I forget which).  I know
these are digital, but how are patches constructed in those?  Do you
literally sit down and program each of the 128 oscillators, or is there a
bunched scheme (as you propose) going on?

--PBr

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Tkacs, Ken [SMTP:ken.tkacs@...]
> Sent:	Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:07 AM
> To:	'motm@egroups.com'
> Subject:	[motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 910 Nice Job
> Paul !!)
> 
> 
> This will take a lot more coffee and daydreaming. I keep thinking that
> through meditation or experimentation (which is harder) there might be a
> "eureka!!" solution to this, some way of making nifty changes to an
> additive
> signal through broad methods.
>

So they do it the (ouch) hard way.  No wonder they were never entirely
successful.

I suppose the problem with bunching oscillators is that you're assuming that
you want the oscillators bunched at those fixed intervals.  I could see
having them run at ill-tempered (heh) intervals for some nicely clangy
sounds (bells, anyone?).

Perhaps you could have oscillators bunched together, and them manipulate how
the bunches are offset from each other.  The oscillators *within* each bunch
would be tempered to particular intervals.  Or is this what you had in mind
to begin with?  (Sorry for the poor description, I'm writing
free-thought...)

--PBr

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Tkacs, Ken [SMTP:ken.tkacs@...]
> Sent:	Tuesday, December 05, 2000 9:29 AM
> To:	'motm@egroups.com'
> Subject:	RE: [motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 910 Nice
> Job  Paul !!)
> 
> 
> I think it's the Kawai, which I have never used.
> 
> Someone once told me though that you basically manipulate vertical bars
> (128
> of them) on screen. That's setting up a static harmonic series... I assume
> they could then be modulated, or morphed, or something.
> 
> 
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Brousseau, Paul E (Paul) [mailto:noise@...] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, 05 December, 2000 12:30 PM
> To:	'motm@egroups.com'
> Subject:	RE: [motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 910 Nice
> Job  Paul !!)
> 
> I like the idea of additive synthesis.  The only "successful" additive
> synth
> I'm aware of is either the Kawai or Kurzweil line (I forget which).  I
> know
> these are digital, but how are patches constructed in those?  Do you
> literally sit down and program each of the 128 oscillators, or is there a
> bunched scheme (as you propose) going on?
> 
>

Yeah it's tough to talk/type about this stuff.

I personally feel you need SOME freedom in setting the pitches. For me, you
can already get pretty decent approximations of harmonic instruments using a
bunch of sawtooth VCOs sync'd together. But where analog falls short is in
the 'enharmonic' sounds, which the vast majority of natural sounds are. You
end up either filtering white noise-very crude---or using the sidebands that
a ring modulator gives you, which has a very particular, identifiable sound.
There HAS to be another way! Additive goes directly for that, but it's a
bear to control.



This subject has been bothering me for quite some time.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Brousseau, Paul E (Paul) [mailto:noise@...] 
Sent:	Tuesday, 05 December, 2000 12:43 PM
To:	'motm@egroups.com'
Subject:	RE: [motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 910 Nice
Job  Paul !!)

So they do it the (ouch) hard way.  No wonder they were never entirely
successful.

I suppose the problem with bunching oscillators is that you're assuming that
you want the oscillators bunched at those fixed intervals.  I could see
having them run at ill-tempered (heh) intervals for some nicely clangy
sounds (bells, anyone?).

Perhaps you could have oscillators bunched together, and them manipulate how
the bunches are offset from each other.  The oscillators *within* each bunch
would be tempered to particular intervals.  Or is this what you had in mind
to begin with?  (Sorry for the poor description, I'm writing
free-thought...)

In message <4FC23B4FFF62D311854F00508B08E81DD7FD31@...
m>, Brousseau, Paul E (Paul) <noise@...> writes
>So they do it the (ouch) hard way.  No wonder they were never entirely
>successful.
>
>I suppose the problem with bunching oscillators is that you're assuming that
>you want the oscillators bunched at those fixed intervals.  I could see
>having them run at ill-tempered (heh) intervals for some nicely clangy
>sounds (bells, anyone?).
>
>Perhaps you could have oscillators bunched together, and them manipulate how
>the bunches are offset from each other.  The oscillators *within* each bunch
>would be tempered to particular intervals.  Or is this what you had in mind
>to begin with?  (Sorry for the poor description, I'm writing
>free-thought...)
>
It depends on wether you have the K5 (which I have) or thee K5000 (which
I want.  REAL bad) On the K5, you get two "oscillators", each with 63
harmonics.  Each "oscillator" has four envelope generators, and you
assign each harmonic to one of these.  There are also two independent
pitch envelopes (loopable) two independent envelopes for the weird
digital filter, and two for the "VCA" stage, so that's (count on
fingers) FOURTEEN envelopes 
(okay, I had to count up with a couple of toes too ;)  ) 
is that enough?
Obviously not, because each 64-harmonic voice channel in thee K5000 has
INDEPENDENT ENVELOPES FOR EACH HARMONIC!! that's as well as pitch, lo
pass filter, formant filter and amp envelopes, of course.  
These instruments rule, and to be brutally honest, I think this sort of
synthesis just isn't practical in analogue hardware form.  There was a
cool PC editor for the K5 called "overtone" which allowed you to extract
harmonic spectra from samples and translate them into K5 patches, but to
the best of my knowledge, no such utility exists for the '5000, which is
a shame.
I think a better MOTM additive-type waveform module would be an
implementation of the GRAPHIC OSCILLATOR - 12 or 16 sliders, VC fast lag
time to smooth off those pointy edges and scaleable modulation inputs
for each slider.  This would RULE, but even then, you'd have at least 16
sliders, 18 knobs 19 sockets and a big panel = big $$$.  What the hell,
I'd buy one...eventually...

I think that ruediger lorenz guy had something like this in his
(awesome-looking) home-brewed modular, BTW...

best etc
-- 
norman fay

>I think it's the Kawai, which I have never used.
>
>Someone once told me though that you basically manipulate vertical bars (128
>of them) on screen. That's setting up a static harmonic series... I assume
>they could then be modulated, or morphed, or something.
>
I have a Kawai K5 that I haven't been able to use for about 5 years, due to
a blown power supply. Had it repaired once, cost $500, and it went out
again a year later :-(

Anyway, the interface is pretty complex, basically terrible for a synth
with so many parameters. You can set up the static harmonics with onscreen
fader bars, which isn't too bad. As I recall, you could group harmonics and
apply a modulation sources to the groups. Don't remember how many groups,
but I do remember it was never enough for what I wanted to do. I tried to
do some realistic acoustic instrument emulations with it, but never really
came close. But it was a pretty unique sounding synth, very bright and
digital (had no filters as I recall). I've been meaning to check out the
newer K5000, which has gotten some awesome reviews (and was still put out
of production).

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@...
Minus Web Site: http://listen.to/minusmusic
Minus MP3's: http://www.mp3.com/-minus-
____________________________________________

>Yeah it's tough to talk/type about this stuff.
>
>I personally feel you need SOME freedom in setting the pitches. For me, you
>can already get pretty decent approximations of harmonic instruments using a
>bunch of sawtooth VCOs sync'd together. But where analog falls short is in
>the 'enharmonic' sounds, which the vast majority of natural sounds are. You
>end up either filtering white noise-very crude---or using the sidebands that
>a ring modulator gives you, which has a very particular, identifiable sound.
>There HAS to be another way! Additive goes directly for that, but it's a
>bear to control.
>
>
>
>This subject has been bothering me for quite some time.

This was my main frustration with the K5, you couldn't retune the overtones
to enharmonic ratios.

____________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@...
Minus Web Site: http://listen.to/minusmusic
Minus MP3's: http://www.mp3.com/-minus-
____________________________________________

The original version, the Buchla 148, was a triangle vco that was fed into a
bunch of waveshapers that gave 10 different partials.  Apparently there was
a later version that included voltage control over each output.

Don't know much more than that.  

-----Original Message-----
From: davevosh@... [mailto:davevosh@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 4:48 PM
To: motm@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 910 Nice
Job Paul !!)


In a message dated 00-12-05 12:10:17 EST, you write:

<< This will take a lot more coffee and daydreaming. I keep thinking that
 through meditation or experimentation (which is harder) there might be a
 "eureka!!" solution to this, some way of making nifty changes to an
additive
 signal through broad methods. >>


i`ve guzzled my share of coffee and spent my share of time in trance-land
but 
no readily "do-able" solution has popped up. years back,  buchla offered a 
harmonic bank vco ( but with only 6 partials, if i remember correctly ).
i`ve 
never seen a picture of one though so i`m not sure what his solutions to the

problem of control were ( even on this much smaller scale). also, seawright 
designed one, but as a complete instrument, at either columbia-princeton or 
univ. of illinois. was used on a piece of e.m. called "lemon drops" (again, 
if i remember correctly) way, way back in the late 60`s.

That's interesting. I wish we could find more info on this. It's hard
finding anything out about the old Buchlas.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Fahl, Romeo [mailto:rfahl@...] 
Sent:	Wednesday, 06 December, 2000 11:25 AM
To:	'motm@egroups.com'
Subject:	RE: [motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 910 Nice
Job  Paul !!)

The original version, the Buchla 148, was a triangle vco that was fed into a
bunch of waveshapers that gave 10 different partials.  Apparently there was
a later version that included voltage control over each output.

Don't know much more than that.

Here's a little more info:

http://www.buchla.com/historical/b100/index.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Tkacs, Ken [mailto:ken.tkacs@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 8:28 AM
To: 'motm@egroups.com'
Subject: RE: [motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 910 Nice
Job Paul !!)



That's interesting. I wish we could find more info on this. It's hard
finding anything out about the old Buchlas.


 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Fahl, Romeo [mailto:rfahl@...] 
Sent:	Wednesday, 06 December, 2000 11:25 AM
To:	'motm@egroups.com'
Subject:	RE: [motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 910 Nice
Job  Paul !!)

The original version, the Buchla 148, was a triangle vco that was fed into a
bunch of waveshapers that gave 10 different partials.  Apparently there was
a later version that included voltage control over each output.

Don't know much more than that.

Ken, one possible source of info is http://www.audities.org. Dave 
Kean is the keeper of both the EMu and Buchla documentation archives. 
I've ordered EMu schemos from there, I think you can get Buchla 
also...

Moe

--- In motm@egroups.com, "Tkacs, Ken" <ken.tkacs@j...> wrote:
> 
> That's interesting. I wish we could find more info on this. It's 
hard
> finding anything out about the old Buchlas.
> 
> 
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Fahl, Romeo [mailto:rfahl@e...] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, 06 December, 2000 11:25 AM
> To:	'motm@egroups.com'
> Subject:	RE: [motm] Long rave: Additive Synth VCO (was: MOTM 
910 Nice
> Job  Paul !!)
> 
> The original version, the Buchla 148, was a triangle vco that was 
fed into a
> bunch of waveshapers that gave 10 different partials.  Apparently 
there was

> a later version that included voltage control over each output.
> 
> Don't know much more than that.

There was an Electronotes design like this.  It's basically a fast VCO
pumped into an analog sequencer.  

-----Original Message-----
From: norman fay [mailto:NFAY@...]
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 10:19 AM
To: motm@egroups.com
Subject: [motm] OT kawai additive info + (weird) module idea


I think a better MOTM additive-type waveform module would be an
implementation of the GRAPHIC OSCILLATOR - 12 or 16 sliders, VC fast lag
time to smooth off those pointy edges and scaleable modulation inputs
for each slider.  This would RULE, but even then, you'd have at least 16
sliders, 18 knobs 19 sockets and a big panel = big $$$.  What the hell,
I'd buy one...eventually...

I think that ruediger lorenz guy had something like this in his
(awesome-looking) home-brewed modular, BTW...

best etc
-- 
norman fay

Even easier: normal MOTM-300 pumped into 4 or 5 bit ADC into 
addressible cv matrix. You avoid having to design a REALLY accurately 
tracking high freq. vco. My SuperMoe sequencer will be able to do 
this, albeit with knobs instead of sliders.

Moe

--- In motm@egroups.com, "Fahl, Romeo" <rfahl@e...> wrote:
> There was an Electronotes design like this.  It's basically a fast 
VCO
> pumped into an analog sequencer.  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: norman fay [mailto:NFAY@F...]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 10:19 AM
> To: motm@egroups.com
> Subject: [motm] OT kawai additive info + (weird) module idea
> 
> 
> I think a better MOTM additive-type waveform module would be an
> implementation of the GRAPHIC OSCILLATOR - 12 or 16 sliders, VC 
fast lag
> time to smooth off those pointy edges and scaleable modulation 
inputs
> for each slider.  This would RULE, but even then, you'd have at 
least 16
> sliders, 18 knobs 19 sockets and a big panel = big $$$.  What the 
hell,

> I'd buy one...eventually...
> 
> I think that ruediger lorenz guy had something like this in his
> (awesome-looking) home-brewed modular, BTW...
> 
> best etc
> -- 
> norman fay

In a message dated 00-12-06 11:38:50 EST, you write:

<< 
 That's interesting. I wish we could find more info on this. It's hard
 finding anything out about the old Buchlas.
  >>


ken,
certainly true. the only thing i`ve noticed is that none of the buchla 100 
series pictures i`ve seen or users i`ve heard about seems to have this 
module. i`m sure theres one out there lurking somewhere, we`ve just got to 
find it to get a report from the owner!
best,
dave