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Graphic Oscillator

Graphic Oscillator

2000-12-06 by Tkacs, Ken

The problem with a graphic oscillator is that the visual shape of a waveform
doesn't have much real bearing on what the sound will be. And changes to
that shape aren't the least bit intuitive, and are generally pretty useless.
The concept sounds great at first---like you will be able to draw any
waveform imaginable and have it at your fingertips. But the reality is that
most sounds you get from it will be terrible.

When I was in college I had proposed a similar Idea and an engineer friend
mocked something up for me as a demo. It sounded like a great idea---draw
ANY waveform!! When we played around with the prototype, our reactions were
like... "oh." That approach is great for producing sounds akin to distorted
60-cycle hum (and not even in a good way...I like noise, but these just
sounded like electronic 'problems'). We dropped the whole thing.

That's why I get wary whenever someone comes out with a Wavetable-based
oscillator boasting "99 banks of new waveforms," and then you look at their
manual, web page, whatever, and they show scope traces of the "new"
waveforms. "Here's the one that looks like a row of houses, here's the one
that looks like an upside-down row of houses" (as if that would sound
different), here's the one where every other cycle is a square or
sawtooth..." And you *know* that they designed these new waveforms by their
look, not with any regard to the useful portions of the spectrum that they
offer.

If they had really come up with some neat complimentary waveforms, I would
expect to see an FFT of them, not just a scope trace.

Ensoniq attempted to create some interesting waveforms for their ESQ
machines. On their own, they are of limited use, but they were digitally
designed to compliment the basic waveforms. These were then saved into the
wavetables. They didn't have names like "row of houses" because they didn't
look like anything simple. (Simple waveforms, like tri, sine, square, etc.
are 'easily' made with analog anyway). Instead they were just called
something like "Digital #2 with emphasized 9th and 10th partials."

I'm not trying to be a wet rag on the idea; I'm just saying that the idea in
practice isn't anywhere near as cool as it sounds. You think you will have
the ultimate VCO but really it just grinds out nastiness. Additive is
different---there, as you, let's say, move a slider up, you can hear that
partial coming into play, and it sounds good and smooth and continuous as
you move it, just like a lowpass filter sounds as it opens up (not "just"
like---I'm trying to explain the 'continuity of it). Just changing a thin
slice of a graphically-divided waveform wouldn't work anything like that.

When you go out looking for new waveforms, you have to ask yourself why.
Certainly you want something different that the Big 4 to compliment them.
But simple bold waveforms are "bottom heavy" by nature, with very strong
fundamentals. That's why their shapes are so defined, if you know what I
mean (that and phase). With subtractive synthesis you end up "brightening" a
tone by either adding another oscillator an interval higher (which is cool,
but it imposes a 'spaced-out,' newly fundamental-heavy series higher up, and
the ear can identify that), or else you highpass filter, which is still
trying to pull-up the closely-packed, upper harmonics from a waveform that
had very little energy up there in the first place.

What would be cool would be to have waveforms *designed* to be up there,
with harmonic series' to match where they land when being applied to the
base waveform (I don't know how to describe this stuff without paper).

RE: [motm] Graphic Oscillator

2000-12-06 by Brousseau, Paul E (Paul)

My understanding is that the waveforms in the Wiard waveform oscillator are
designed like this.  They're not all intended to be just sound sources, but
modifiers and other things as well.

--PBr
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Tkacs, Ken [SMTP:ken.tkacs@...]
> Sent:	Wednesday, December 06, 2000 11:19 AM
> To:	'motm@egroups.com'
> Subject:	[motm] Graphic Oscillator
> 
> 
> Ensoniq attempted to create some interesting waveforms for their ESQ
> machines. On their own, they are of limited use, but they were digitally
> designed to compliment the basic waveforms. These were then saved into the
> wavetables. They didn't have names like "row of houses" because they
> didn't
> look like anything simple. (Simple waveforms, like tri, sine, square, etc.
> are 'easily' made with analog anyway). Instead they were just called
> something like "Digital #2 with emphasized 9th and 10th partials."
>

Re: [motm] Graphic Oscillator

2000-12-06 by ixqy@aol.com

Hello all,
 With all the recent talk about additive oscs and Ken's post here, I just had 
an idea... (and the crowd goes.. "oh-oh"!)  ; )

 I spent a few hours last night programming some new sounds on my Kawai 
K5000s additive synth. One thing that amazes me is the *drastic* effect that 
the formant filter has on the overall sound.

 *** K5000 synthesis hierarchy note***  Individual additive osc freqs. 
(harmonics) are set in their own menus, then you can emphasize, de-emphsize 
various parts of the spectrum with the formant filter, this is in addition to 
the normal LP/HP filter section.  Each of the above synth sections 
(harmonics, Formant Filt, standard filter also have their own independant EGs 
(!).

 Taking this perspective on things (here's where the idea comes in), instead 
of trying to implement a multi-partial oscillator module with individual 
harmonics' control, how about using steep-sloped filters to 
accentuate/attenuate the various harmonics generated by a harmonically rich 
signal source. This source could be an existing osc being FM'd with an audio 
range signal or sync'd oscillators, or anything else that will produce lots 
of harmonics.

 What gave me this idea was the extreme amount of attenuation of the MOTM 410 
tri res filter. If you input a signal who's fundamental freq is outside the 
filter's notch freq, you will not hear the signal at all. 

 So...maybe a combination of multiple steep bandpass/notch filters can 
generate some interesting and usable spectra. This sounds similiar to a 
vocoder, but instead of applying in that sense it could be developed with 
more of a synth-slant such as: v/octave of all filter freqs, envelope control 
over all filters, or even a static setting, which would then be further 
shaped by the 420, 440 etc... Come to think of it, this is starting to sound 
like a 410 on steriods... hmm...    : )

 Andrew Sanchez
 


In a message dated 12/6/00 1:24:01 PM Central Standard Time, 
ken.tkacs@... writes:

> The problem with a graphic oscillator is that the visual shape of a waveform
>  doesn't have much real bearing on what the sound will be. And changes to
>  that shape aren't the least bit intuitive, and are generally pretty 
useless.
>  The concept sounds great at first---like you will be able to draw any
>  waveform imaginable and have it at your fingertips. But the reality is that
>  most sounds you get from it will be terrible.
>  
>  When I was in college I had proposed a similar Idea and an engineer friend
>  mocked something up for me as a demo. It sounded like a great idea---draw
>  ANY waveform!! When we played around with the prototype, our reactions were
>  like... "oh." That approach is great for producing sounds akin to distorted
>  60-cycle hum (and not even in a good way...I like noise, but these just
>  sounded like electronic 'problems'). We dropped the whole thing.
>  
>  That's why I get wary whenever someone comes out with a Wavetable-based
>  oscillator boasting "99 banks of new waveforms," and then you look at their
>  manual, web page, whatever, and they show scope traces of the "new"
>  waveforms. "Here's the one that looks like a row of houses, here's the one
>  that looks like an upside-down row of houses" (as if that would sound
>  different), here's the one where every other cycle is a square or
>  sawtooth..." And you *know* that they designed these new waveforms by their
>  look, not with any regard to the useful portions of the spectrum that they
>  offer.
>  
>  If they had really come up with some neat complimentary waveforms, I would
>  expect to see an FFT of them, not just a scope trace.
>  
>  Ensoniq attempted to create some interesting waveforms for their ESQ
>  machines. On their own, they are of limited use, but they were digitally
>  designed to compliment the basic waveforms. These were then saved into the
>  wavetables. They didn't have names like "row of houses" because they didn't
>  look like anything simple. (Simple waveforms, like tri, sine, square, etc.
>  are 'easily' made with analog anyway). Instead they were just called
>  something like "Digital #2 with emphasized 9th and 10th partials."
>  
>  I'm not trying to be a wet rag on the idea; I'm just saying that the idea 
in
>  practice isn't anywhere near as cool as it sounds. You think you will have
>  the ultimate VCO but really it just grinds out nastiness. Additive is
>  different---there, as you, let's say, move a slider up, you can hear that
>  partial coming into play, and it sounds good and smooth and continuous as
>  you move it, just like a lowpass filter sounds as it opens up (not "just"
>  like---I'm trying to explain the 'continuity of it). Just changing a thin
>  slice of a graphically-divided waveform wouldn't work anything like that.
>  
>  When you go out looking for new waveforms, you have to ask yourself why.
>  Certainly you want something different that the Big 4 to compliment them.
>  But simple bold waveforms are "bottom heavy" by nature, with very strong
>  fundamentals. That's why their shapes are so defined, if you know what I
>  mean (that and phase). With subtractive synthesis you end up "brightening" 
a
>  tone by either adding another oscillator an interval higher (which is cool,
>  but it imposes a 'spaced-out,' newly fundamental-heavy series higher up, 
and
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>  the ear can identify that), or else you highpass filter, which is still
>  trying to pull-up the closely-packed, upper harmonics from a waveform that
>  had very little energy up there in the first place.
>  
>  What would be cool would be to have waveforms *designed* to be up there,
>  with harmonic series' to match where they land when being applied to the
>  base waveform (I don't know how to describe this stuff without paper).
>

Re: Graphic Oscillator

2000-12-06 by Dave Bradley

You make a good point about graphically design waveforms not always 
being interesting musically. Nevertheless, an awful lot of the 
waveforms in my Wiard MiniWave DO sound useful and different, even if 
some of them look like Batman's cowl. There are also banks with 
emphasis on varying harmonics too - 1 bank has fundamental plus each 
of the first 15 harmonics each as a separate wave, another has 
fundamental plus the 3rd harmonic at 15 different amplitudes...

Not continuously variable for sure, but lots o' power with only 1 or 
2 CVs necessary to impose control.

Moe

--- In motm@egroups.com, "Tkacs, Ken" <ken.tkacs@j...> wrote:
> 
> The problem with a graphic oscillator is that the visual shape of a 
waveform
> doesn't have much real bearing on what the sound will be. And 
changes to
> that shape aren't the least bit intuitive, and are generally pretty 
useless.
> The concept sounds great at first---like you will be able to draw 
any
> waveform imaginable and have it at your fingertips. But the reality 
is that
> most sounds you get from it will be terrible.
> 
> When I was in college I had proposed a similar Idea and an engineer 
friend
> mocked something up for me as a demo. It sounded like a great idea--
-draw
> ANY waveform!! When we played around with the prototype, our 
reactions were
> like... "oh." That approach is great for producing sounds akin to 
distorted
> 60-cycle hum (and not even in a good way...I like noise, but these 
just
> sounded like electronic 'problems'). We dropped the whole thing.
> 
> That's why I get wary whenever someone comes out with a Wavetable-
based
> oscillator boasting "99 banks of new waveforms," and then you look 
at their
> manual, web page, whatever, and they show scope traces of the "new"
> waveforms. "Here's the one that looks like a row of houses, here's 
the one
> that looks like an upside-down row of houses" (as if that would 
sound
> different), here's the one where every other cycle is a square or
> sawtooth..." And you *know* that they designed these new waveforms 
by their
> look, not with any regard to the useful portions of the spectrum 
that they
> offer.
> 
> If they had really come up with some neat complimentary waveforms, 
I would
> expect to see an FFT of them, not just a scope trace.
> 
> Ensoniq attempted to create some interesting waveforms for their ESQ
> machines. On their own, they are of limited use, but they were 
digitally
> designed to compliment the basic waveforms. These were then saved 
into the
> wavetables. They didn't have names like "row of houses" because 
they didn't
> look like anything simple. (Simple waveforms, like tri, sine, 
square, etc.
> are 'easily' made with analog anyway). Instead they were just called
> something like "Digital #2 with emphasized 9th and 10th partials."
> 
> I'm not trying to be a wet rag on the idea; I'm just saying that 
the idea in
> practice isn't anywhere near as cool as it sounds. You think you 
will have
> the ultimate VCO but really it just grinds out nastiness. Additive 
is
> different---there, as you, let's say, move a slider up, you can 
hear that
> partial coming into play, and it sounds good and smooth and 
continuous as
> you move it, just like a lowpass filter sounds as it opens up 
(not "just"
> like---I'm trying to explain the 'continuity of it). Just changing 
a thin
> slice of a graphically-divided waveform wouldn't work anything like 
that.
> 
> When you go out looking for new waveforms, you have to ask yourself 
why.
> Certainly you want something different that the Big 4 to compliment 
them.
> But simple bold waveforms are "bottom heavy" by nature, with very 
strong
> fundamentals. That's why their shapes are so defined, if you know 
what I
> mean (that and phase). With subtractive synthesis you end 
up "brightening" a
> tone by either adding another oscillator an interval higher (which 
is cool,
> but it imposes a 'spaced-out,' newly fundamental-heavy series 
higher up, and
> the ear can identify that), or else you highpass filter, which is 
still
> trying to pull-up the closely-packed, upper harmonics from a 
waveform that
> had very little energy up there in the first place.
> 
> What would be cool would be to have waveforms *designed* to be up 
there,
> with harmonic series' to match where they land when being applied 
to the
> base waveform (I don't know how to describe this stuff without 
paper).

i have some old effect/filter schematics--> does anyone read japanese?

2000-12-06 by Aaron Day

hey all-
	 i have a photo copy of a book titled "music machine 
handcraft" containing a bunch of schematics and pcb layouts for 
filters, vocoders, distortion pedals, vca's, "rhythm boxes" and 
what-not....

one problem, all of the written descriptions are kanji.

looks like there might be some cool stuff if you can read japanese or 
can lift designs directly from circuit diagrams (as i imagine many of 
you folks can) the resistor values chip IC#'s etc are all clearly 
printed .

if there is an interest i could scan a few of these and post them or 
if someone else has a wild hair i will pass it on.  not familiar with 
the schematics enough to know if this is old news.

feel free to contact me privately .

best.

ad
-- 



---------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Day
415.901.6300  Main
415.901.6358  Direct
415.901.6310  Fax
aaron@...

---------------------------------------------------------------
Method
512 2nd Street, 4th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94107

www.method.com

---------------------------------------------------------------






.

Re: [motm] Graphic Oscillator

2000-12-06 by J. Larry Hendry

Ken makes a lot of good points here, and I may have missed out on some
earlier components of the thread.   However, I would like to tell people
that a machine made by Korg that did exactly what Ken is talking about.  So,
if someone has a real tilt in their brain to try some of this, for about
$250 used you can buy a Korg DSS-1 sampling synthesizer.  I have two of
these beasts and will never part with them (one is hot rodded with SCSI and
extra memory).  For general sampling, they suck by today's standards: 12
bit, 8 seconds or so of total sample RAM.  512K.  :)

Essentially, this synth (notice I said synth) was marketed as Korg's first
(and only) sampler. (well there was the rack version DSM-1).  However, what
you actually have is a analog synth engine (EGs, VCAs, VCFs with resonance),
with sample RAM being the source for the VCOs, coupled to 2 fully
programmable DDLs on the output.  Korg provided a very large selection of
single cycle waveforms.  You can make your own waveforms on the DSS-1 by 3
methods:  1. normal sampling. 2. additive harmonic synthesis, 3 draw your
own.  I never really got much out of the draw your own, but it is quick and
easy if you want to mess around with such things.  I found the additive
harmonic synthesis much more appealing.  Essentially, you could pick each
harmonic (sine wave) and add as much of the fundamental and each harmonic as
you liked.  You could specify the exact level (in resolution of 1 in 255) of
each harmonic (128 of them).  And, you could listen to the change of each
harmonic tweak as you added it in.  IMHO, this would be a great tool for
someone designing "wavetable" type stuff.

I also have a program that lets me swap RAM waveforms between the DSS-1 and
PC for digital viewing and editing of these waveforms.  Anyhow, the DSS-1 is
an interesting beast for such complex waveform stuff.  I plan on using mine
a lot with my MOTM stuff.  Since it is MIDI, I can use the MIDI as a
controller and use these complex waveform audio outs mixed in with my VCOs.

One other interesting thing about the DSS-1 is that the programmable DDLs
can be used to process external signals.  Unfortunately, not at the same
time the keyboard functions are being used.

I would be happy to download some of the Korg factory complex single
waveforms to .WAV files and e-mail them to interested parties.  It may take
a while to get to it though.

Larry H
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: Tkacs, Ken <ken.tkacs@...>
The concept sounds great at first---like you will be
able to draw any waveform imaginable and have it
at your fingertips. But the reality is that most sounds
you get from it will be terrible.

When I was in college I had proposed a similar Idea
and an engineer friend mocked something up for me as
a demo. It sounded like a great idea---draw ANY
waveform!!

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