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Status of discussed future modules

Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-04 by Paul Schreiber

OK, so by my reckoning, what's going to happen the following hinted-at future
modules:

130 Dual VCA w/Pan & Fade

Not dead, but not too soon, either. The MOTM-1190 Frac version has 75% of the
circuitry that would be used for the design. So, it would not be that difficult
to add the pan/fade circuirty. Let's see how my time goes late in the year.

4xx SEM VCF w/Morphing Output

Still alive, but next year.

4xx ARP 2600 VCF

Dead for now.

430 Variable Slope High-Pass VCF

Still alive, but next year.

450 Fixed Filter Bank

Dead for now.

460 Bi-Phase Clone

Still alive, but next year.

8xx Triple Pre-Amp
8xx Envelope Follower/Compressor

I'm going to combine these into 1 module. Most definetely alive: if I have time
this year to add another new module, it will be this one.

Paul S.

RE: Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-04 by Greg James

Paul,

Thanks - Great news! I feel much better now! I'll go and have a Dr Pepper
myself.

Happy 4th,
Greg

(who spent too much time last night hovering over my system configuration
spreadsheet watching the unexpected MOTM expenses for this year add up :-(

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 12:47 AM
To: gjames@...; MOTM litserv
Subject: Status of discussed future modules


OK, so by my reckoning, what's going to happen the following hinted-at
future
modules:

130 Dual VCA w/Pan & Fade

Not dead, but not too soon, either. The MOTM-1190 Frac version has 75% of
the
circuitry that would be used for the design. So, it would not be that
difficult
to add the pan/fade circuirty. Let's see how my time goes late in the year.

4xx SEM VCF w/Morphing Output

Still alive, but next year.

4xx ARP 2600 VCF

Dead for now.

430 Variable Slope High-Pass VCF

Still alive, but next year.

450 Fixed Filter Bank

Dead for now.

460 Bi-Phase Clone

Still alive, but next year.

8xx Triple Pre-Amp
8xx Envelope Follower/Compressor

I'm going to combine these into 1 module. Most definetely alive: if I have
time
this year to add another new module, it will be this one.

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-04 by Mark

I'm a bit confused here. Are these going to be offered as assembled
modules using analogue SMT?

While I do not like that kits are being discontinued, it's way better
than going out of business. What I don't understand, if the modules
that were previously available as kits that are going to continue to
be available assembled use their original through-hole designs, then
aren't the parts that Synthesis Technology would need to buy, and the
cost of those parts, the same as before?


Also, the "Future Modules" link doesn't seem to be working.


On 7/3/06, Paul Schreiber put forth:
>OK, so by my reckoning, what's going to happen the following hinted-at future
>modules:
>
>130 Dual VCA w/Pan & Fade
>
>Not dead, but not too soon, either. The MOTM-1190 Frac version has 75% of the
>circuitry that would be used for the design. So, it would not be
>that difficult
>to add the pan/fade circuirty. Let's see how my time goes late in the year.
>
>4xx SEM VCF w/Morphing Output
>
>Still alive, but next year.
>
>4xx ARP 2600 VCF
>
>Dead for now.
>
>430 Variable Slope High-Pass VCF
>
>Still alive, but next year.
>
>450 Fixed Filter Bank
>
>Dead for now.
>
>460 Bi-Phase Clone
>
>Still alive, but next year.
>
>8xx Triple Pre-Amp
>8xx Envelope Follower/Compressor
>
>I'm going to combine these into 1 module. Most definetely alive: if
>I have time
>this year to add another new module, it will be this one.
>
>Paul S.

Re: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-04 by Paul Schreiber

> I'm a bit confused here. Are these going to be offered as assembled
> modules using analogue SMT?

Yes.

>
> While I do not like that kits are being discontinued, it's way better
> than going out of business. What I don't understand, if the modules
> that were previously available as kits that are going to continue to
> be available assembled use their original through-hole designs, then
> aren't the parts that Synthesis Technology would need to buy, and the
> cost of those parts, the same as before?

Yes. But realize that there are 2 kinds of "parts". The parts that most people
think of are what is on the pc board (resistors, diodes, caps, IC, etc). For the
majority of modules, this cost of these (even including the pc board) is only
25% of the *total* cost. The pots/jacks/knobs/panel/bracket is the other 75%.

But even that isn't the 'real' problem.

The real problem is that I have minimum ordering requirements from my pc board
and panel supplier. The minimum is 50 pieces. Not, lets look at a typical module
on the discontinued list, the MOTM-850.

I have sold 5 of these in the last *year*. If the current panels/pc boards run
out, I have to order *50 more*. See the problem? :)

The selection of modules to discontinue is *solely based on sales*. I am willing
to keep inventory in stock if I think I can sell ALL of it in 2 years. Most
businesses will tell you 12 *weeks* is pushing it.

Paul S.


Paul S.

Re: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-04 by Jay

Paul Schreiber wrote:

> lets look at a typical module
> on the discontinued list, the MOTM-850.
>
> I have sold 5 of these in the last *year*.

That's too bad, because I consider real-time control to be an absolutely
necessary part of any synth. Everyone should buy two of these.

[motm] kits

2006-07-04 by Nathan Durham

Paul Schreiber:< I am NOT going to redesign existing modules into SMT.
The modules that will remain for sale of the existing line will remain
through-hole. I will continue to offer the remaining assembled MOTM
modules exactly like they are today.>

I don't want to stir up anything, and I know that you have to do
whatever it takes to keep MOTM going (which I greatly appreciate,) but
I'd like to throw out an idea.

Those of us who are buying kits seem to have leveled off. In my case,
that's because of financial issues, not intention. I've been holding at
16 MOTM modules for a while, but as soon as I get on my feet in my new
career, I intend to double that.

By now I think that a lot of us kit folks have tried some of the DIY
projects out there, from Oakley or the Stooges or wherever, and I
already have boxes full of resistors, caps, jacks, knobs, and wire. My
question concerns only the old board designs that you intend to keep
producing: If the boards are going to remain the same, would it be
possible to provide a DIY kit, with just a PCB, panel, and bracket, and
maybe a couple of specialty parts, such as tempco resistors? This would
practically eliminate the problems of kitting up and sorting out all
those small parts, and would make it much more possible for me to buy
the four more oscillators I want to add to my system, along with the
rest of the current filters.

nathan durham

Re: [motm] kits

2006-07-04 by Paul Schreiber

If the boards are going to remain the same, would it be possible to provide a DIY kit, with just a PCB, panel, and bracket, and maybe a couple of specialty parts, such as tempco resistors? This would practically eliminate the problems of kitting up and sorting out all those small parts, and would make it much more possible for me to buy the four more oscillators I want to add to my system, along with the rest of the current filters.
I have offered the pc boards alone "unofficially" off and on for $40ea. Sold maybe a dozen. Still not big of a market.
Oakley is supposed to be gearing back up to sell kits (including front panels).
In December, if it happens I have * a lot* of leftovers, then we'll see.
It's just time for me to move on to another design phase.
Paul S.

RE: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-05 by Adam Schabtach

> > lets look at a typical module
> > on the discontinued list, the MOTM-850.
> >
> > I have sold 5 of these in the last *year*.
>
> That's too bad, because I consider real-time control to be an absolutely
> necessary part of any synth. Everyone should buy two of these.

I'm guessing that the problem is that there isn't a consensus about which
modules are "absolutely necessary"--or rather, anything that's on the the
discontinued list does not have such a consensus. The 300 is not on the list
because it's absolutely necessary to most people. On the other hand, I
posted a message in support of the 700, someone else posted an impassioned
vote for the 820, and you submit that everyone should have two 850s. I have
a 38-module system; I very rarely use my one 820 and I don't have an 850 at
all because it's never looked useful to me. "Different strokes..."

It's a pretty simple aspect of running business: if you have a product that
doesn't sell well, you stop selling it and use the resources (inventory
space, inventory capital, R&D, etc.) for other products. Regardless of what
we individual customers may consider to be absolutely necessary, only Paul
is in a position to evaluate which products are worth continuing and which
should be dropped.

It's also very easy (as a customer) to overlook the factor of having to
purchase PC boards, panels, etc. in batches. We purchase modules a few at a
time. Paul purchases PCBs for one module 50 at a time. Once he explained
this to me I had a somewhat better understanding of what the business looks
like from his perspective. A module that doesn't sell well can't be carried
indefinitely; it just doesn't make sense to do so. (I developed a somewhat
greater appreciation of these issues after I got into the retail business
myself, but it's simpler for me because the things I sell are delivered to
me in finished form. I'm just a reseller, which is a whole lot simpler than
being a developer and manufacturer. Given my experiences Synth Tech looks
mind-bogglingly complex from a business standpoint. But I digress.)

--Adam

Re: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-10 by Kenneth Elhardt

I always seem to be behind on e-mail. But I have to point out some things
others haven't.

Adam Schabtach writes:
>>I'm guessing that the problem is that there isn't a consensus about which
modules are "absolutely necessary"-- I posted a message in support of the
700, someone else posted an impassioned vote for the 820, and you submit
that everyone should have two 850s. I have a 38-module system; I very rarely
use my one 820 and I don't have an 850 at all because it's never looked
useful to me. "Different strokes..."<<

It's not all a matter of "different strokes". There are necessary modules.
Virtually all modular synths have lag processor modules and nearly all
prewired synths do too in the form of portamento. No other modular synths
have a 700, 510, nor in most cases a 120, and people have been using those
synths fine for decades. For MOTM to discontinue a necessary module because
it isn't selling a fast as others creates a hole in the product line. There
isn't another module that can replace the 820. A holes in the product line
discourages people from buying into MOTM in the first place. I was
reluctant to commit to MOTM when they didn't have mixer module (one of those
necessary modules), but did only because I was told it was coming soon.
Modcan lost me as a customer based on the lack of a decent mixer module. Of
course those specialized low sales volume modules like the 700 can also
attract people into becoming MOTM customers and buying other things. Note
that the great 101 module has a built in lag proc to smooth out noise,
perhaps taking some sales away from the 820.

Discontinuing the 850 is also depressing. I have two of them. Problem is
people are buying music gear these days but they don't know how to play it.
If they can't play a keyboard, the pedal is yet one more step removed. It's
a sad state of affairs. Without a pedal interface, then most people in the
future will have to go through MIDI for that function (if they have a Midi
keyboard and CV converter box). But that causes bad zipper noise and needs
the 820 lag to smooth out. But that's being dropped, so you can see how one
thing affects another. With Larry Hendry's breath control mod, the pedal
interface becomes a breath controller interface too. Too bad MOTM doesn't
offer that little add on. The more functions the 850 does, the more people
to buy it.

Without a lag processor and pedal interface, soon the mighty motm won't be
able to do when some of the cheapest little synths can. That just doesn't
look good for motm.

>>It's a pretty simple aspect of running business: if you have a product
that doesn't sell well, you stop selling it<<

Paul S. has always called motm a hobby. Now it's a business? It seems to
change based on what best fits the current situation. A while back Paul
seemed to indicate that kits might be shipped with most of the components
machine stuffed. That would solve the problem of bagging a half million
resistors. I'm surprised I haven't heard that mentioned. I myself didn't
buy motm because I wanted to build kits. That gets tired real fast. But
kits helped keep the price somewhat reasonable. With all the price
increases since then and now the dropping of the kits, that's like another
giant price increase for many people. I can't see how that won't affect
sales in a negative way. Unless that 94% kit to 6% assembled customer base
has flipped a complete 180.

Paul S. writes:
>>The orders for kits are in *severe decline* and I think the main reason is
most MOTM users have all the "regular" modules they need and want cool new
stuff.<<

Possibly. But modules like the 700, 850, 510, etc, are cool new stuff for
new customers. With those being discontinued, I'm confused as to why
another similar specialty module that will also be discontinued, the 730
pulse divider, is planned. If I were new and looking at motm now, those
older modules look far more interesting and cool than a pulse divider. I
don't even know why I'd want to divide pulses, but I could wire up a 30 cent
flip-flop chip to do it if I needed to.

-Elhardt

Re: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-10 by synth1@airmail.net

> Virtually all modular synths have lag processor modules and nearly all
> prewired synths do too in the form of portamento.

This is sort of a 2-sided coin. The MOTM-650 can now do the portamento,
both contastnt rate and constant time. Over 4 independent voices.

In fact, even simple MIDI-CV like the Kenton's have portamento. Every
CV/Gate out keyboard also has it. There is no "need" for the '820 to do
portamento.

The MOTM-820 is unique in the independent up/down rates and the fact these
are under CV control.

As far as "attractive to new users", I looked at the last 25 new customers
and 2 have bought '820s.

Certainly, I can "bring back to life" the '820 if there is demand. Then
I'll be critized for doing so :)

Let's see.

>
> Discontinuing the 850 is also depressing.

The good news is that I will publish the full PDF docs this fall on the
discontinued modules and you can make one.

>
> Paul S. has always called motm a hobby. Now it's a business?

It's a hobby in the sense that this is not my sole income to support
me/wife/2 teenagers (I maybe could support the 2 teenagers). Then again,
when you sell 1000 modules/year which means on average I purchase $156,000
of parts/yr, that becomes a business. Then, and this is becoming the most
important factor, *time*. I'm 50yrs old, I've been doing this for 8 1/2
years and I still want to design more than fart around with
invoices/inventory/worrying if the wire or panel vendor will flake out
(again). I miss sitting at the bench for days and days. I feel guilty for
even playing video games or watching a movie because there is *always*
work needing done (ie there are modules in the backlog).

MOTM is on the fine edge of massive hobby/business model.



> A while back Paul seemed to indicate that kits might be shipped with
most of the components machine stuffed. That would solve the problem of
bagging a half million resistors. I'm surprised I haven't heard that
mentioned.

The person that owned that machine sold it (through-hole axial inserter)
after I ran 150 MOTM-480 boards through it. They bought 7 SMT machines
instead. Hmmm........

And try to buy 5% resistors, and the other parts on tape and reel,
especially after RoHS went into effect.

> I can't see how that won't affect sales in a negative way. Unless that
94% kit to 6% assembled customer base has flipped a complete 180.

Of *course* in 2007 the number of modules shipped will probably be 1/3 to
1/2 of what it is now. That's the *whole idea*. Like I've explained
several times in the past (read the archives!) MOTM was never set up to
make the profit needed to support a 'real' company (rent/employees/etc).
If you think MOTM is $$$ now, I would have to charge 30% more and *still*
personally make the *same* money. What's the point of that?

And yes, I am targeting assembled module customers, they fastest growing
market segment (shrug).

> But modules like the 700, 850, 510, etc, are cool new stuff for
> new customers.

Actual sales data does not verify this assumption.

> If I were new and looking at motm now, those
> older modules look far more interesting and cool than a pulse divider. I
> don't even know why I'd want to divide pulses, but I could wire up a 30
> cent
> flip-flop chip to do it if I needed to.

Well, the '730 has 17 simultaneous outputs :) and 1 under CV and it can
fractionally divide (by say 4 1/2). If you want to "hear" what it can do,
get the Robert Rich CD "Electric Ladder".

Paul S.

Re: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-10 by Scott E.

Thank You! I will be interested in these docs.

If there is any chance for a PCB mask..... :)

Scott E.
=====================================================
synth1@... wrote:

The good news is that I will publish the full PDF docs this fall on the
discontinued modules and you can make one.

Re: Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-10 by edibennardo

--->
> > But modules like the 700, 850, 510, etc, are cool new stuff for
> > new customers.

I think there's a momentary dead point with the above modules for a
simple reason. Old customers have all got those modules and new
customers are starting purchasing more essential modules at first,
afterwards it will be their turn to purchase those special modules.
Old customers didn't find new stuff to purchase for months and months
(with the exception of the 650) and we could assist to an amount of
time invested in the duplication of existing modules in a different
format. No one on this list could complain for this because we all
understand that this is a way to keep the business alive so everyone
was patiently waiting for a better future. Yet, for what i could
experience on this list in many years, if Paul said "hey there are few
preorders on 450 kits maybe I can not produce it unless we get 20 more
orders.." well.. I think in a few days many people would place
preorders.(This has happened already with another module if I remember
correctly) .. or.. the talk about how awesome is the misunderstood 700
module did probably let sell all existing units in little more than 1
hour. I think more communication on this kind of things would help the
MOTM community in being more cooperative. So, no criticism here, I'm
only saying that sometimes people are not aware of what is selling
well and what is not and, in some cases, some gaps could be more
easily filled.
Enrico Dibennardo (Italy)

Re: Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-10 by Mike Marsh

> Paul S. has always called motm a hobby. Now it's a business?
> It seems to change based on what best fits the current situation.

So because it's Paul's hobby, he should fund yours?

I wouldn't.

Mike

Re: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-10 by Stephen Drake

On 7/3/06, Paul Schreiber <synth1@...> wrote:
>
>

> OK, so by my reckoning, what's going to happen the following hinted-at
> future
> modules:
>
> 130 Dual VCA w/Pan & Fade
>
> Not dead, but not too soon, either. The MOTM-1190 Frac version has 75% of
> the

snipity snipity snip

> 8xx Envelope Follower/Compressor
>
> I'm going to combine these into 1 module. Most definetely alive: if I have
> time
> this year to add another new module, it will be this one.
>
> Paul S.
>

Just occurred to me - whatever happened to the uSeq? Has it vanished
also, leaving only a smoldering proto version? I remember a video of
Robert Rich demoing it...

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Drake
sduck409@...
makeme1witheverything@...

Re: [motm] Re: Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-10 by Matthew Hiscock

As a somewhat new customer, that's certainly the case with me. I'd like to get a Wavewarper, for example, but not before I get a third EG, for example, and a second VCA.

If there's a run of 700/850/510s etc in a year's time, though, I might be all over that.

On 10-Jul-06, at 4:56 AM, edibennardo wrote:

--->
> > But modules like the 700, 850, 510, etc, are cool new stuff for
> > new customers.

I think there's a momentary dead point with the above modules for a
simple reason. Old customers have all got those modules and new
customers are starting purchasing more essential modules at first,
afterwards it will be their turn to purchase those special modules.


__________________________________________________
www.bodega-audio.com
www.myspace.com/bodegaaudio
www.distillerymastering.com
Bodega./Bootleg Sounds. Fat East Coast. Distillery Mastering.


Re: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-10 by Paul Schreiber

> Just occurred to me - whatever happened to the uSeq? Has it vanished
> also, leaving only a smoldering proto version? I remember a video of
> Robert Rich demoing it...

Not dead at all. In fact, I already have front panels, pc boards, Grayhill
optical rotary encoders and NKK switches sitting here (enough for 60 modules). I
need to redesign the uP board to an ARM7TDMI (same uP family as the
AudioEngine). The programmers on the '650 are ARM programmers and they will
continue with the '600.

Paul S.

RE: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-11 by Adam Schabtach

> If you want to
> "hear" what it can do, get the Robert Rich CD "Electric Ladder".

Um... Do you have any specific examples, i.e. which tracks/motifs/etc.?
Given that Robert's using Logic these days it's hard to tell what could be
Pulse Divider and what's just plain ol' MIDI sequencing.

--Adam

Re: [motm] Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-11 by Paul Schreiber

a) The third to last piece ("Concentric" track 5) uses it to generate rhythms.

b) all of the rhythms in the CD 'Lithosphere' (see tracks 2&3&9) use it
extensively.

Paul S.

>
> Um... Do you have any specific examples, i.e. which tracks/motifs/etc.?
> Given that Robert's using Logic these days it's hard to tell what could be
> Pulse Divider and what's just plain ol' MIDI sequencing.

Re: [motm] Re: Status of discussed future modules

2006-07-14 by Kenneth Elhardt

Mike Marsh writes:
>>So because it's Paul's hobby, he should fund yours? I wouldn't.<<

What? As a customer, I felt the need to point out some other things that
Paul may not have considered. He said the only reason certain modules were
being discontinued was based only on how many were being sold. I pointed
out that things are interralated, and following only that decision may cause
other side effects. All modular synth companies have the basic modules.
You can get those elsewhere. It's those unique ones that distinguish one
company from another and may bring in new customers. I already have a 700,
820, and a couple of 850's, so it's no skin off my nose if they are
cancelled. I have funded Paul's hobby.

However, about supporting Paul's hobby. His module price increase do to his
wife wanting a new kitchen, well, I'm not sure that's really what I was
hoping to fund. I could use a new kitchen myself too.

As far as the word hobby, I have a bit of a problem with that word. A
business is for profit and a hobby is something you do for fun, not for
profit. I wish it would just be called a business all the time which it is.

Paul S. writes:
>>In fact, even simple MIDI-CV like the Kenton's have portamento. Every
CV/Gate out keyboard also has it. There is no "need" for the '820 to do
portamento.<<

I should point out a couple of things. Not all cv/gate keyboards have it,
or not always on the cv output, and those that do are usually ancient things
with no velocity or pressure and not really what many people would want to
use. Yes, many can get by with Midi, but the Kenton for example only has
one type of portamento, and it's always a pain to start to have to go
through LCD menu programming when using a modular. The MOTM 820 lag with
it's lin/log is about the only thing that can give me very natural sounding
slides for string sounds. I've tried everything on my Nord modular, and it
can't do it. Don't think any midi box will either. Not to mention that the
amount of it can be controlled with a pedal. It's usually always patched
into my Kenton CV path, and when I want portamento, it's just a switch flip
away.

>>Actual sales data does not verify this assumption (700, 850, 510, etc, are
cool new stuff for new customers).<<

I think that might be do to the newer customers seem to be those buying one
module every few months, rather than the types who buy whole systems at
once. They need basic modules before specialized ones. And that might be
the sad fact that is dooming the more interesting modules.

-Elhardt