Homebrew PCBs

I am about to make some printed circuit boards using a laser printer,
the Pulsar transfer film and an H200 laminator.  Do I need to use toner
reactive film or will the toner itself resist the etchant ?

Thanks 




-- 
Kim Lux (Mr.)  Diesel Research Inc

Hi,

toner transfer for compoent legend doesn't work well on single-sided  
boards.
The surface is too shiny.
Until now i only used it on areas where i etched copper away (two sided  
stock),
which leaves a ideal surface.

I tried roughening the surface, it worked somewhat, but not as good as on  
a etched-away area.
Just a warning for those who want to try, better first try on double-sided  
stock.


Also i want to thank the guy who suggested using thick drawing paper to  
feed two-sided transfers.
It works like a charm. Sorry i'm too lazy now to look for your name and i  
forgot it, but thank you.

I align the two printed paper pieces against the light, then insert them  
in the folded drawing paper
and hold the three together at the folded edge with one hand. (leave a  
broad border on your printouts).
the i simply insert the PCB and feed that folded edge first - works very  
well.

ST

Hi everyone.

I decided i do need some sort of agitation for my etcher.
i tried moving the board, it works well but tends to shake to board loose  
of the
holder.
The etching takes too long, and it is very uneven because the spent  
etchant sinks down.

So i went to a aquarium shop for a air pump.
got one for 10eur, took it apart and found the pumping part is made  
entirely of rubber
and plastic (only one M3 screw needs relacement with nylon or a protective  
silicone coat).
This means for me i can scoop up the air from under the cover of the etch  
tank, releasing no corrosive
mist into the room, or at least much less.

I got a bubble-stone with it, but it is just a small (2cm) ceramic ball,  
no good for even
distribution of bubbles.
They don't have other bubbling stones, i believe i remember reading about  
"fritted glass" or something
here?
What about making holes in a hose? would that cause too-big bubbles, and  
too few?

Another thing is, do you think those air pups can pump liquids?  
alternatively to pumping air i might
just pump the etchant around. I will test that with water. Other pumps  
(centrifugal for aquarium filters)
have a magnet exposed to the liquid, and a metal shaft (expensive ones  
have a ceramic shaft, or so they
say). Would the magnet be attacked by etchant? it is a hard "black" type,  
not a neodymium magnet.
Maybe the magnet could be painted or something...

While we are at pumps, i learned something interesting: for CO2 feed  
systems the aquarium guys use
reactors. that is a cylinder where the water is pumped downwards, while  
the co2 gas rises against the current.
they place obstacles into this cylinder too.
If it is adjusted correct almost no CO2 reaches the top, all is solved in  
the water. this might be an effective setup for air-regenerating CuCl.

thanks for any hints about that bubbler stuff (but suppliers in the US are  
not of much use).

ST

Hi Stefan,

You can make holes in a plastic tube but they need to be very small. I 
used a small pin that I heated up with a candle flame. If you use the 
pin cold the hole tends to seal up as soon as you remove the pin. You 
don't need many holes. If I remember correctly my system worked best 
with about 5 holes in a 180mm length of pipe. I am working from memory 
here because my tank now has the holes built in.

You need a pump with a reasonable flow rate if you go this route 
otherwise you may find that air only comes out of one half of the tube.

 > Another thing is, do you think those air pups can pump liquids?


No they won't. They rely on sprung magnet that is alternately attacted 
to and repelled from an AC electromagnet. The weight of the magnet and 
spring are designed so they resonate at mains frequency. Any quantity of 
liquid in the pump will damp out any movement and it will stop working. 
I found this out when I had some etchant syphon back into the pump 
overnight.

Les

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> 
> Hi everyone.
> 
> I decided i do need some sort of agitation for my etcher.
> i tried moving the board, it works well but tends to shake to board loose  
> of the
> holder.
> The etching takes too long, and it is very uneven because the spent  
> etchant sinks down.
> 
> So i went to a aquarium shop for a air pump.
> got one for 10eur, took it apart and found the pumping part is made  
> entirely of rubber
> and plastic (only one M3 screw needs relacement with nylon or a protective  
> silicone coat).
> This means for me i can scoop up the air from under the cover of the etch  
> tank, releasing no corrosive
> mist into the room, or at least much less.
> 
> I got a bubble-stone with it, but it is just a small (2cm) ceramic ball,  
> no good for even
> distribution of bubbles.
> They don't have other bubbling stones, i believe i remember reading about  
> "fritted glass" or something
> here?
> What about making holes in a hose? would that cause too-big bubbles, and  
> too few?
> 
> Another thing is, do you think those air pups can pump liquids?  
> alternatively to pumping air i might
> just pump the etchant around. I will test that with water. Other pumps  
> (centrifugal for aquarium filters)
> have a magnet exposed to the liquid, and a metal shaft (expensive ones  
> have a ceramic shaft, or so they
> say). Would the magnet be attacked by etchant? it is a hard "black" type,  
> not a neodymium magnet.
> Maybe the magnet could be painted or something...
> 
> While we are at pumps, i learned something interesting: for CO2 feed  
> systems the aquarium guys use
> reactors. that is a cylinder where the water is pumped downwards, while  
> the co2 gas rises against the current.
> they place obstacles into this cylinder too.
> If it is adjusted correct almost no CO2 reaches the top, all is solved in  
> the water. this might be an effective setup for air-regenerating CuCl.
> 
> thanks for any hints about that bubbler stuff (but suppliers in the US are  
> not of much use).
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

>From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] bubbler system
>Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 16:09:06 +0100
>
>
>
>Hi everyone.
>
>I decided i do need some sort of agitation for my etcher.
>i tried moving the board, it works well but tends to shake to board loose
>of the
>holder.
>The etching takes too long, and it is very uneven because the spent
>etchant sinks down.
>
>So i went to a aquarium shop for a air pump.
>got one for 10eur, took it apart and found the pumping part is made
>entirely of rubber
>and plastic (only one M3 screw needs relacement with nylon or a protective
>silicone coat).
>This means for me i can scoop up the air from under the cover of the etch
>tank, releasing no corrosive
>mist into the room, or at least much less.
>
>I got a bubble-stone with it, but it is just a small (2cm) ceramic ball,
>no good for even
>distribution of bubbles.
>They don't have other bubbling stones, i believe i remember reading about
>"fritted glass" or something
>here?

I've got a rectangular stone, about 10 cm long. Haven't tried it with an air 
pump, though. I find that contnuous manual agitation of the etchant 
container worrks very well, and only takes 10 minutes or so.

Leon

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 16:11:50 +0000, Les Newell <lesnewell@...>  
wrote:

>
> Hi Stefan,
>
> You can make holes in a plastic tube but they need to be very small. I
> used a small pin that I heated up with a candle flame. If you use the
> pin cold the hole tends to seal up as soon as you remove the pin. You
> don't need many holes. If I remember correctly my system worked best
> with about 5 holes in a 180mm length of pipe. I am working from memory
> here because my tank now has the holes built in.
>
> You need a pump with a reasonable flow rate if you go this route
> otherwise you may find that air only comes out of one half of the tube.
>

Ok, i'll experiment with poking holes in a hose then.
I thought maybe it is best to make the hose a U-shape, so i can feed both  
sides.
I can get a second pump if required, the one i have says 110 l/h.

Well, i'll try for hole-size, and how many holes the pump will supply at  
the given depth.

ST

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 17:01:00 +0000, Leon Heller <leon_heller@...>  
wrote:

>
> I've got a rectangular stone, about 10 cm long. Haven't tried it with an  
> air
> pump, though. I find that contnuous manual agitation of the etchant
> container worrks very well, and only takes 10 minutes or so.
> Leon
>


My container is unsuited for moving it. also it takes longer with my CuCl  
if i don't add high
amounts of H2O2 and i don't want to stay put until it is done.
I have hooked a geared motor to the pcb holder via a rubber band several  
times, which worked
very well for agitating, but tends to shake the PCB loose.
Another thought was to use some sort of plastic paddle to create waves or  
a current in the
tank....

ST

Think & Tinker has some suggestions regarding bubblers at 
http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/equipment/bubltank/bublt
ank.htm .

Lyman

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

Hi everyone.

I decided i do need some sort of agitation for my etcher.
i tried moving the board, it works well but tends to shake to board 
loose of the holder. The etching takes too long, and it is very 
uneven because the spent etchant sinks down.

So i went to a aquarium shop for a air pump. got one for 10eur, took 
it apart and found the pumping part is made entirely of rubber
and plastic (only one M3 screw needs relacement with nylon or a 
protective silicone coat). This means for me i can scoop up the air 
from under the cover of the etch tank, releasing no corrosive
mist into the room, or at least much less.

I got a bubble-stone with it, but it is just a small (2cm) ceramic 
ball, no good for even distribution of bubbles. They don't have other 
bubbling stones, i believe i remember reading about "fritted glass" 
or something here? What about making holes in a hose? would that 
cause too-big bubbles, and too few?

Another thing is, do you think those air pups can pump liquids?
alternatively to pumping air i might just pump the etchant around. I 
will test that with water. Other pumps (centrifugal for aquarium 
filters)have a magnet exposed to the liquid, and a metal shaft 
(expensive ones have a ceramic shaft, or so they say). Would the 
magnet be attacked by etchant? it is a hard "black" type,
not a neodymium magnet. Maybe the magnet could be painted or 
something...

While we are at pumps, i learned something interesting: for CO2 feed
systems the aquarium guys use reactors. that is a cylinder where the 
water is pumped downwards, while the co2 gas rises against the 
current. they place obstacles into this cylinder too. If it is 
adjusted correct almost no CO2 reaches the top, all is solved in
the water. this might be an effective setup for air-regenerating CuCl.

thanks for any hints about that bubbler stuff (but suppliers in the 
US are not of much use).

ST

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 20:48:40 -0000, Radra <infositeus@...> wrote:

>
> Think & Tinker has some suggestions regarding bubblers at
> http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/equipment/bubltank/bublt
> ank.htm .
> Lyman


thanks.
and here is was wondering how i could produce very small holes, for very  
small bubbles.
It seems larger is OK, though small would be better for regeneration.
I will try the hose-and-hot-needle approach and see how many holes that  
pump can drive.

ST

I've had the same problem toner transferring component legends on 
single sided boards. My solution was to first give the legend side a 
light coat of Krylon spray paint and letting it dry completely. then 
doing the toner transfer. Gives great contrast (white) or creates an 
interesting look (red).

Myc





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> toner transfer for compoent legend doesn't work well on single-
sided  
> boards.
> The surface is too shiny.
.

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 23:39:34 -0000, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

>
> I've had the same problem toner transferring component legends on
> single sided boards. My solution was to first give the legend side a
> light coat of Krylon spray paint and letting it dry completely. then
> doing the toner transfer. Gives great contrast (white) or creates an
> interesting look (red).
> Myc


thanks, will try. is krylon paint something special? what is it, acrylic?
I grabbed some 1000grit and 600grit paper at the tools shop today, will  
try that too
to roughen the surface.

ST

I found a heated pin produces pretty large holes and, thus, pretty
large bubbles.  I used a #69 drill bit to get much smaller holes but
would prefer even smaller.

Also, be careful of the material you use.  CuCl attacks a lot of
different plastics.  I've had the best luck with HDPE.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 16:11:50 +0000, Les Newell <lesnewell@f...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi Stefan,
> >
> > You can make holes in a plastic tube but they need to be very small. I
> > used a small pin that I heated up with a candle flame. If you use the
> > pin cold the hole tends to seal up as soon as you remove the pin. You
> > don't need many holes. If I remember correctly my system worked best
> > with about 5 holes in a 180mm length of pipe. I am working from memory
> > here becaIuse my tank now has the holes built in.
> >
> > You need a pump with a reasonable flow rate if you go this route
> > otherwise you may find that air only comes out of one half of the
tube.
> >
> 
> Ok, i'll experiment with poking holes in a hose then.
> I thought maybe it is best to make the hose a U-shape, so i can feed
both  
> sides.
> I can get a second pump if required, the one i have says 110 l/h.
> 
> Well, i'll try for hole-size, and how many holes the pump will
supply at  

> the given depth.
> 
> ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> and here is was wondering how i could produce very small holes, 
for very  
> small bubbles.
> It seems larger is OK, though small would be better for 
regeneration.


My dad showed me how to put very small holes in a cigar by passing 
the thing back and forth many times between the arc of a large, high 
voltage spark gap. ...it was clamped to the end of a long plastic 
rod of course, not held by hand.

Anyway, the arc punches so many holes that you can't draw air 
through the end of the cigar and it becomes impossible to light, but 
the holes are so small that you can't see them with the naked eye.

We had an uncle who used to light up these really smelly things 
after T-Day dinner... It still smelled, but it was worth it to watch 
him huff and puff.

It might not work on plastic tubing if the plastic gets warm enough 
to close the holes or if the insulative ability of the hose is 
enough to deflect the arc around the hose rather than through, but I 
thought it might be worth mentioning.

> thanks, will try. is krylon paint something special? what is it, 
acrylic?
 
Krylon is a spray paint brand here in the US.  It is a Lacquer.  
Very Good Spray Paint, Dries Fast.  Like it alot better than the 
Rust-Oleum Brand that Home Depot and Lowes sells now days after Rust-
Oleum came in and made Home Depot and Lowes a deal to just carry 
their product.  Wal-Mart still carry the Krylon Brand.

But that most likely does not do you much good since you are not in 
the U.S.

Ben

I use a 5 Gallon Aquarium installed three rows of 1/2" CPVC pipe 
across the bottom and feed it from both ends with a small air 
compressor.  Don't recall the size holes I drilled into the pipe, 
maybe 1mm.  The small Aquarium pump that I had used with a smaller 
tank did not work nor did a larger Aquariium pump work very well 
with the 5 gallon tank, even tried 2 pumps together.  Had this small 
portable compressor and tried it and it worked great, just a little 
noisy.  Put a value in the line to control the amount of bubbles.

I use Ferric Chloride in my tank.  With fresh Ferric Chloride it 
will etch upto (4) 8" x 12" single sided boards in about 5 mins. 
(longer times the more the Ferric Chloride has been used) with it 
heated, use (2) Aquarium heaters to heat it, ran the temp. controls 
up all the way bypassing the normal stop, never measured the 
Temperature.

Ben

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 02:46:16 -0000, Ben H. Lanmon <bhleavi@...>  
wrote:

>
> Krylon is a spray paint brand here in the US.  It is a Lacquer.
> Very Good Spray Paint, Dries Fast.  Like it alot better than the
> Rust-Oleum Brand that Home Depot and Lowes sells now days after Rust-
> Oleum came in and made Home Depot and Lowes a deal to just carry
> their product.  Wal-Mart still carry the Krylon Brand.
> But that most likely does not do you much good since you are not in
> the U.S.
> Ben

Right.
What would be interesting for me is if it is "water based" (in reality  
ammonia based) or
solvent, and wich kind of paint it is then.
(differnt laquers will have differene heat behavoir, but i might just try  
around)

ST

hi

bubbler is working fine already.
Aginst better knoweledge i decided to try cutting corners and did not test  
the bubbler with water.
I just took a plastic hose, made 5 holes with a hot needle, put a isolated  
copper wire (seal the ends)
in the hose. Also selaled one end of the hose. the wire inside allows for  
shaping and holds it down and in place.

The bubbles are maybe 6mm dia. and all holes work equally well.
The bubbles create a mad circular current, up in the center and down the  
sides. Also along with the
big bubbles there are thousands of tiny bubbles, which you only see after  
stopping the pump, when
they rise slowly to the surface.

The mixing is of course homogenous, i am sure 1/10 of the bubbles or less  
would already ensure complete
mixing.

when the bubbles rise they spread, so that at the top of the tank they  
already cover the whole area,
but on the bottom they do etch streaks where they rise. i think about  
adding two more holes
to create a more even etch. Also it could be that some obstruction above  
the air holes might
help to spread the bubbles over the entire length, i was thinking about a  
roll of plastic fly screen,
what do you think?

i had to modify the pump to get a suction input, but it wasn't much of a  
problem.
the closed circuit seems to work from what i can tell, but long-term  
rusting will show the truth..

So, at the end of the day it seems bubbling is really a good method to mix  
the etchant.

Thanks for the suggestion of a hot needle to punch the holes.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Kim Lux <lux@d...> wrote:
> 
> I am about to make some printed circuit boards using a laser 
printer,
> the Pulsar transfer film and an H200 laminator.  Do I need to use 
toner
> reactive film or will the toner itself resist the etchant ?
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kim Lux (Mr.)  Diesel Research Inc

The toner Reactive file merely puts a harder surface in the top of 
the toner image.  It does not fill in holes in the toner nor does it 
fill any "jaggies" in trace lines or pads.

Its main purpose is to provide a harder, more impervious cover for 
the toner.  This is important if you are using Pulsar's 
recommended "direct rub" method of FeCl etching (which I use). 
The "direct rub" method relies on use of a soft sponge or brush to 
wipe the etchant across the board.  Small amounts of etchant are used 
at room temp and wiped across the board.  This speeds the etching 
process by constantly resupplying fresh FeCl to the copper surface 
while removing the copper-saturated etchant. Without the TRF 
overcoat, some of the toner will be rubbed off, exposing copper that 
you do not want removed.

If you are not using the "direct rub" method but are using an etching 
tank, I do not believe that the TRF is needed, but may enhance 
quality of the board. 

I also use the aluminum colored TRF to do the legend side of the 
board.  I have no problems getting a good component legend with the 
toner transfer and finishing it with the aluminum TRF.  I do 
encounter some minor problems when transferring a legend when a 
legend item is too close to a track or pad on a double-side board.  
The difference in the height of the copper and the board will cause a 
small skip in the toner due to this surface irregularity.  

The TRF coated legend is surprisingly scratch resistant.  I transfer 
the legend prior to drilling.  The legend side is face down on my 
drill press and after all of the positioning, sliding and drilling, 
the legend appears unaffected.

I use these techniques to make single/double sided boards from 3"x5" 
to 9"x6".  I do all thru-hole boards, so I make no representations 
regarding the efficacy of these techniques for SMD work.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Rusty Turley

Thanks for the excellent answer.  I never even thought of making a
component mask.  That is a great idea.  


On Wed, 2004-12-08 at 16:28 +0000, rustyturley wrote:

> 
> The toner Reactive file merely puts a harder surface in the top of 
> the toner image.  It does not fill in holes in the toner nor does it 
> fill any "jaggies" in trace lines or pads.
> 
> Its main purpose is to provide a harder, more impervious cover for 
> the toner.  This is important if you are using Pulsar's 
> recommended "direct rub" method of FeCl etching (which I use). 
> The "direct rub" method relies on use of a soft sponge or brush to 
> wipe the etchant across the board.  Small amounts of etchant are used 
> at room temp and wiped across the board.  This speeds the etching 
> process by constantly resupplying fresh FeCl to the copper surface 
> while removing the copper-saturated etchant. Without the TRF 
> overcoat, some of the toner will be rubbed off, exposing copper that 
> you do not want removed.
> 
> If you are not using the "direct rub" method but are using an etching 
> tank, I do not believe that the TRF is needed, but may enhance 
> quality of the board. 
> 
> I also use the aluminum colored TRF to do the legend side of the 
> board.  I have no problems getting a good component legend with the 
> toner transfer and finishing it with the aluminum TRF.  I do 
> encounter some minor problems when transferring a legend when a 
> legend item is too close to a track or pad on a double-side board.  
> The difference in the height of the copper and the board will cause a 
> small skip in the toner due to this surface irregularity.  
> 
> The TRF coated legend is surprisingly scratch resistant.  I transfer 
> the legend prior to drilling.  The legend side is face down on my 
> drill press and after all of the positioning, sliding and drilling, 
> the legend appears unaffected.
> 
> I use these techniques to make single/double sided boards from 3"x5" 
> to 9"x6".  I do all thru-hole boards, so I make no representations 
> regarding the efficacy of these techniques for SMD work.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rusty Turley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
-- 
Kim Lux (Mr.)  Diesel Research Inc

Hi Stefan,

I am glad it worked for you. I would have thought a fly screen would
tend to collect the bubbles rather than breaking them up. I haven't
actually tried this so I could be completely wrong of course...

I have noticed my tank also etches slightly unevenly. To get around this
I usually turn the board over half way through.

Les

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>hi
>
>bubbler is working fine already.
>Aginst better knoweledge i decided to try cutting corners and did not test  
>the bubbler with water.
>I just took a plastic hose, made 5 holes with a hot needle, put a isolated  
>copper wire (seal the ends)
>in the hose. Also selaled one end of the hose. the wire inside allows for  
>shaping and holds it down and in place.
>
>The bubbles are maybe 6mm dia. and all holes work equally well.
>The bubbles create a mad circular current, up in the center and down the  
>sides. Also along with the
>big bubbles there are thousands of tiny bubbles, which you only see after  
>stopping the pump, when
>they rise slowly to the surface.
>
>The mixing is of course homogenous, i am sure 1/10 of the bubbles or less  
>would already ensure complete
>mixing.
>
>when the bubbles rise they spread, so that at the top of the tank they  
>already cover the whole area,
>but on the bottom they do etch streaks where they rise. i think about  
>adding two more holes
>to create a more even etch. Also it could be that some obstruction above  
>the air holes might
>help to spread the bubbles over the entire length, i was thinking about a  
>roll of plastic fly screen,
>what do you think?
>
>i had to modify the pump to get a suction input, but it wasn't much of a  
>problem.
>the closed circuit seems to work from what i can tell, but long-term  
>rusting will show the truth..
>
>So, at the end of the day it seems bubbling is really a good method to mix  
>the etchant.
>
>Thanks for the suggestion of a hot needle to punch the holes.
>
>ST
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 22:27:58 +0000, Les Newell <lesnewell@...>  
wrote:

> Hi Stefan,
> I am glad it worked for you. I would have thought a fly screen would
> tend to collect the bubbles rather than breaking them up. I haven't
> actually tried this so I could be completely wrong of course...
> I have noticed my tank also etches slightly unevenly. To get around this
> I usually turn the board over half way through.
> Les


Yes, i have the same fear with the fly screen.
In the meanwhile i made two more holes, making it more even.
but 7 holes is the max. number the pump will do, more and some holes will  
stop bubbling.

It is fine now however, and i'm satisfied with it right now. but that  
won't last i guess.
The etching is much faster now.

ST

I would think that a commercial "airstone" would do better. No?

> Right.
> What would be interesting for me is if it is "water based" (in 
reality  
> ammonia based) or
> solvent, and wich kind of paint it is then.
> (differnt laquers will have differene heat behavoir, but i might 
just try  
> around)
> 
> ST

On the can under Clean Up they say to use Lacquer Thinner, and for 
Over Spray Clean Up to use Paint Thinner.  They make several types 
of spray paint products some are Enamel and Latex also, part of the 
Sherwin-Williams Company one of the largest paint Companies in the 
U.S.

You can take a look at their products at www.krylon.com 

Ben

An Idea just ran through my head, but....

As inkjet printing wont hold up to the etch etc, and it comes off, cant 
that be used to an advantage?

ie print what you /want/ etched off on an inkjet onto the copper, then 
spray with a resist agent, IE cheap car paint, then wash and hopefully 
the areas that where inkjet printed will wash away leaving copper to be 
etched?


(stop laughing at the back....)

Hi
 You may be on to something here.
 Jeri

no laughing here, i already have a printer ready to
print pcbs, i had the same idea and am going to try it
later on. was using a printer with built in print
nozzels(epson)--but will go back to the printer with
nozzels in the print cartrage.
mebo





--- lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> 
> An Idea just ran through my head, but....
> 
> As inkjet printing wont hold up to the etch etc, and
> it comes off, cant 
> that be used to an advantage?
> 
> ie print what you /want/ etched off on an inkjet
> onto the copper, then 
> spray with a resist agent, IE cheap car paint, then
> wash and hopefully 
> the areas that where inkjet printed will wash away
> leaving copper to be 
> etched?
> 
> 
> (stop laughing at the back....)
> 
> 



		
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I dont think where the nozzle is will be an issue, lots of inkjets can 
now do cd etc like the epson r200/300 etc, been out a while will be a 
discount model after december, will print direct down onto pcb and can 
still do photo's etc to keep friend/family happy!

Only thing is finding something that will go over the ink, but let you 
wash it off, without washing it off the copper.

And finding which cheap 3rd party ink cartridge works best, as genuine 
ones cost a packet.

>no laughing here, i already have a printer ready to
>print pcbs, i had the same idea and am going to try it
>later on. was using a printer with built in print
>nozzels(epson)--but will go back to the printer with
>nozzels in the print cartrage.
>mebo
>  
>

the nozzle isnt an issue except when the nozzel on a
printer mounted nozzel stops up,then you have to throw
away the whole printer.if the nozzel stops up on the
cartrage --just get a new cartrage.believe me--i have
been there.
mebo




--- lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> 
> I dont think where the nozzle is will be an issue,
> lots of inkjets can 
> now do cd etc like the epson r200/300 etc, been out
> a while will be a 
> discount model after december, will print direct
> down onto pcb and can 
> still do photo's etc to keep friend/family happy!
> 
> Only thing is finding something that will go over
> the ink, but let you 
> wash it off, without washing it off the copper.
> 
> And finding which cheap 3rd party ink cartridge
> works best, as genuine 
> ones cost a packet.
> 
> 
> 
> >no laughing here, i already have a printer ready to
> >print pcbs, i had the same idea and am going to try
> it
> >later on. was using a printer with built in print
> >nozzels(epson)--but will go back to the printer
> with
> >nozzels in the print cartrage.
> >mebo
> >  
> >
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:46:52 -0800 (PST), pebo festus <mebo31@...>  
wrote:

>
> the nozzle isnt an issue except when the nozzel on a
> printer mounted nozzel stops up,then you have to throw
> away the whole printer.if the nozzel stops up on the
> cartrage --just get a new cartrage.believe me--i have
> been there.
> mebo


Yes, but there's a BUT.

The fixed-heads are usually piezo-jet and better quality while
the on-cartridge heads are thermo/bubble jet and as cheap as humanly (or  
inhumanly) possible.

Piezo-jets seem more tolerant of different inks.

ST

here is a pic where i printed on a pcb.


http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oFS6QYGAwga4EupkAfzTqr_42QCuaSsybaSdp7_hi
jPUJ5LUMGOcrtJS0tSJrwdxy8qU8ezpGq60IQ8Vt74z2UO3FTU/Direct%20Inkjet%
20Resist%20Printing/reg%20ink.JPG

mebo




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:46:52 -0800 (PST), pebo festus 
<mebo31@y...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > the nozzle isnt an issue except when the nozzel on a
> > printer mounted nozzel stops up,then you have to throw
> > away the whole printer.if the nozzel stops up on the
> > cartrage --just get a new cartrage.believe me--i have
> > been there.
> > mebo
> 
> 
> Yes, but there's a BUT.
> 
> The fixed-heads are usually piezo-jet and better quality while
> the on-cartridge heads are thermo/bubble jet and as cheap as 
humanly (or  

> inhumanly) possible.
> 
> Piezo-jets seem more tolerant of different inks.
> 
> ST

oops---link didnt work---but its in the file section.
mebo


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pebo festus" <mebo31@y...> 
wrote:
> 
> here is a pic where i printed on a pcb.
> 
> 
> 
http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oFS6QYGAwga4EupkAfzTqr_42QCuaSsybaSdp7_hi

> jPUJ5LUMGOcrtJS0tSJrwdxy8qU8ezpGq60IQ8Vt74z2UO3FTU/Direct%20Inkjet%
> 20Resist%20Printing/reg%20ink.JPG
> 
> mebo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 13:46:52 -0800 (PST), pebo festus 
> <mebo31@y...>  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > the nozzle isnt an issue except when the nozzel on a
> > > printer mounted nozzel stops up,then you have to throw
> > > away the whole printer.if the nozzel stops up on the
> > > cartrage --just get a new cartrage.believe me--i have
> > > been there.
> > > mebo
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, but there's a BUT.
> > 
> > The fixed-heads are usually piezo-jet and better quality while
> > the on-cartridge heads are thermo/bubble jet and as cheap as 
> humanly (or  
> > inhumanly) possible.
> > 
> > Piezo-jets seem more tolerant of different inks.
> > 
> > ST