Homebrew PCBs

Hello,

I just joined and have been using ferric chloride to photo etch brass 
sheets to make parts for models. This is a quick rundown of how it 
works:
http://picasaweb.google.com/ErieChris333/Etching

I have read about using Sodium Persulfate instead of ferric chloride. I 
heard it was cheaper and worked faster.

Can anyone here give me some insight. Does it really work better 
(faster)? and were can I buy it and learn how to mix it?

Thanks
Chris

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Chris" <CSchmuck@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 8:19 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] New here and a question.


> Hello,
>
> I just joined and have been using ferric chloride to photo etch brass
> sheets to make parts for models. This is a quick rundown of how it
> works:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/ErieChris333/Etching
>
> I have read about using Sodium Persulfate instead of ferric chloride. I
> heard it was cheaper and worked faster.
>
> Can anyone here give me some insight. Does it really work better
> (faster)? and were can I buy it and learn how to mix it?

Rapid Electronics (UK) sells it. I don't think it works any better, and it 
doesn't keep once it is made up with water.

Leon

Chris,

I don't think that you can much optimize your process by changeing the 
etchant. You easily can optimize the etching process itself though. You 
may want to optimize some other steps in your process too:

a) exposure. Use an exposure unit (self built if you want, there are 
plenty of projects/plans around) That way you expose the stuff in as few 
as 10 seconds. The key factor here is the light source which should be 
ultra violet.

b) The resist you use seems quite odd to me (requiereing wet 
application). There is dry film resist out there which should do much 
better. Simply laminate that one onto the brass. Should be a matter of 
~3 minutes and not fuzzing around with water etc.

c) Build a bubble etcher with a heater element in int. That way I'm sure 
you bring down your etching times significantly.

You CAN use alternative etchants (and others here surely will give you 
replies), but be warned that the alternatives are much more agressive to 
the envireonement or cost significantly more because you can only use 
the mixture for one (or very few) etch process(es). The nice thing about 
Fe3Cl is that it lasts very very long when compared to the alternatives 
and it's dirt cheap, and is also less dangerous. Other etchants are 
extremly agressive to all your metal stuff surrouding the area where you 
etch. I mean it, you would not be the first one using this stuff just to 
find out that all of a sudden a lot of things around you get an instant 
rust layer.... Natriumpersulfat on the other hand is compareably 
expensive and does not last very long.

Just my 2\ufffd

Markus

Markus,

Thanks, I will just stick to Ferric Chloride.

If it's daytime I expose outside in about 1 minute.

I am interested in the resist film you mentioned. The stuff I use if 
from Micro Mark and I think is what people use to sandblast images on 
glass. Can you post a link to where I can buy what your talking about?

Thanks
Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...> 
wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> I don't think that you can much optimize your process by changeing 
the 
> etchant. You easily can optimize the etching process itself though. 
You 
> may want to optimize some other steps in your process too:
> 
> a) exposure. Use an exposure unit (self built if you want, there 
are 
> plenty of projects/plans around) That way you expose the stuff in 
as few 
> as 10 seconds. The key factor here is the light source which should 
be 
> ultra violet.
> 
> b) The resist you use seems quite odd to me (requiereing wet 
> application). There is dry film resist out there which should do 
much 
> better. Simply laminate that one onto the brass. Should be a matter 
of 
> ~3 minutes and not fuzzing around with water etc.
> 
> c) Build a bubble etcher with a heater element in int. That way I'm 
sure 
> you bring down your etching times significantly.
> 
> You CAN use alternative etchants (and others here surely will give 
you 
> replies), but be warned that the alternatives are much more 
agressive to 
> the envireonement or cost significantly more because you can only 
use 
> the mixture for one (or very few) etch process(es). The nice thing 
about 
> Fe3Cl is that it lasts very very long when compared to the 
alternatives 
> and it's dirt cheap, and is also less dangerous. Other etchants are 
> extremly agressive to all your metal stuff surrouding the area 
where you 
> etch. I mean it, you would not be the first one using this stuff 
just to 
> find out that all of a sudden a lot of things around you get an 
instant 

> rust layer.... Natriumpersulfat on the other hand is compareably 
> expensive and does not last very long.
> 
> Just my 2¢
> 
> Markus
>

Chris,

I use Ordyl Alpha 900, but there are other products around. They are 
used to produce PCBs. You may want to contact a board house near you to 
ask for a local supplyer and what they use. The "problem" with the 
resist is that you usually must buy two complete rolls. The smallest 
ones tend to be 150m. But if you are a member of a forum or something 
that does the stuff you do (and I get the impression that's the case), 
then you may easily can motivate others to buy a set of rolls for a few 
members. I did a similar thing. I bought two rolls, used one for my own 
needs but sold the other to a group of people thereby cutting my costs 
in half. A roll, when stored in a fridge and when you hand cut peaces of 
it will last ~2 years. Depending on the product, the storeage capability 
depends on the environement temperature (should be below 10 degrees 
celsius) and in some cases the exposure to oxygene. The good thing about 
the ordyl alpha is that it is not that much critical with regard to 
oxygene that said it's sufficient to store the roll in the fridge. :-)

HTH

Markus

Chris schrieb:

>
> Markus,
>
> Thanks, I will just stick to Ferric Chloride.
>
> If it's daytime I expose outside in about 1 minute.
>
> I am interested in the resist film you mentioned. The stuff I use if
> from Micro Mark and I think is what people use to sandblast images on
> glass. Can you post a link to where I can buy what your talking about?
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > I don't think that you can much optimize your process by changeing
> the
> > etchant. You easily can optimize the etching process itself though.
> You
> > may want to optimize some other steps in your process too:
> >
> > a) exposure. Use an exposure unit (self built if you want, there
> are
> > plenty of projects/plans around) That way you expose the stuff in
> as few
> > as 10 seconds. The key factor here is the light source which should
> be
> > ultra violet.
> >
> > b) The resist you use seems quite odd to me (requiereing wet
> > application). There is dry film resist out there which should do
> much
> > better. Simply laminate that one onto the brass. Should be a matter
> of
> > ~3 minutes and not fuzzing around with water etc.
> >
> > c) Build a bubble etcher with a heater element in int. That way I'm
> sure
> > you bring down your etching times significantly.
> >
> > You CAN use alternative etchants (and others here surely will give
> you
> > replies), but be warned that the alternatives are much more
> agressive to
> > the envireonement or cost significantly more because you can only
> use
> > the mixture for one (or very few) etch process(es). The nice thing
> about
> > Fe3Cl is that it lasts very very long when compared to the
> alternatives
> > and it's dirt cheap, and is also less dangerous. Other etchants are
> > extremly agressive to all your metal stuff surrouding the area
> where you
> > etch. I mean it, you would not be the first one using this stuff
> just to
> > find out that all of a sudden a lot of things around you get an
> instant
> > rust layer.... Natriumpersulfat on the other hand is compareably
> > expensive and does not last very long.
> >
> > Just my 2\ufffd
> >
> > Markus
> >
>
>

Thanks I will look for it. Google only got 10 results with only 3 of 
those in English.

I have seen whole rolls of what I buy, but I haven't ordered because 
I don't know if it is an exact match. I get my stuff from here:
<http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?
MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=83130>
and have been through about 25 rolls so far.

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...> 
wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 
> I use Ordyl Alpha 900, but there are other products around. They 
are 
> used to produce PCBs. You may want to contact a board house near 
you to 
> ask for a local supplyer and what they use. The "problem" with the 
> resist is that you usually must buy two complete rolls. The 
smallest 
> ones tend to be 150m. But if you are a member of a forum or 
something 
> that does the stuff you do (and I get the impression that's the 
case), 
> then you may easily can motivate others to buy a set of rolls for a 
few 
> members. I did a similar thing. I bought two rolls, used one for my 
own 
> needs but sold the other to a group of people thereby cutting my 
costs 
> in half. A roll, when stored in a fridge and when you hand cut 
peaces of 
> it will last ~2 years. Depending on the product, the storeage 
capability 
> depends on the environement temperature (should be below 10 degrees 
> celsius) and in some cases the exposure to oxygene. The good thing 
about 
> the ordyl alpha is that it is not that much critical with regard to 
> oxygene that said it's sufficient to store the roll in the 
fridge. :-)
> 
> HTH
> 
> Markus
> 
> Chris schrieb:
> >
> > Markus,
> >
> > Thanks, I will just stick to Ferric Chloride.
> >
> > If it's daytime I expose outside in about 1 minute.
> >
> > I am interested in the resist film you mentioned. The stuff I use 
if
> > from Micro Mark and I think is what people use to sandblast 
images on
> > glass. Can you post a link to where I can buy what your talking 
about?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Chris
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Markus Zingg <homebrew-
pcb@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris,
> > >
> > > I don't think that you can much optimize your process by 
changeing
> > the
> > > etchant. You easily can optimize the etching process itself 
though.
> > You
> > > may want to optimize some other steps in your process too:
> > >
> > > a) exposure. Use an exposure unit (self built if you want, there
> > are
> > > plenty of projects/plans around) That way you expose the stuff 
in
> > as few
> > > as 10 seconds. The key factor here is the light source which 
should
> > be
> > > ultra violet.
> > >
> > > b) The resist you use seems quite odd to me (requiereing wet
> > > application). There is dry film resist out there which should do
> > much
> > > better. Simply laminate that one onto the brass. Should be a 
matter
> > of
> > > ~3 minutes and not fuzzing around with water etc.
> > >
> > > c) Build a bubble etcher with a heater element in int. That way 
I'm
> > sure
> > > you bring down your etching times significantly.
> > >
> > > You CAN use alternative etchants (and others here surely will 
give
> > you
> > > replies), but be warned that the alternatives are much more
> > agressive to
> > > the envireonement or cost significantly more because you can 
only
> > use
> > > the mixture for one (or very few) etch process(es). The nice 
thing
> > about
> > > Fe3Cl is that it lasts very very long when compared to the
> > alternatives
> > > and it's dirt cheap, and is also less dangerous. Other etchants 
are

> > > extremly agressive to all your metal stuff surrouding the area
> > where you
> > > etch. I mean it, you would not be the first one using this stuff
> > just to
> > > find out that all of a sudden a lot of things around you get an
> > instant
> > > rust layer.... Natriumpersulfat on the other hand is compareably
> > > expensive and does not last very long.
> > >
> > > Just my 2¢
> > >
> > > Markus
> > >
> >
> >
>

Optically the resist looks like the one I used bevore switching to the 
Ordyl, but do you really have to apply it wet??

I belive you went through 25 so small rolls :-) The nice thing about 
this offer in your link is at the sime time also the bad thing about it. 
I mean it's nice that you can buy in such small quantities, but with 
that price ($8 something) you could have bought a whole lot more by 
buying "big" rolls.

I figure you live in a totally different area of the world (US I guess) 
that's why it does not make sense to give you pointers to my suppliers. 
Again, my advice to you is to contact a local board shop and politely 
explain what you do and ask for a pointer to their resist suppliers.

Markus

Chris schrieb:

>
> Thanks I will look for it. Google only got 10 results with only 3 of
> those in English.
>
> I have seen whole rolls of what I buy, but I haven't ordered because
> I don't know if it is an exact match. I get my stuff from here:
> <http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp? 
> <http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?>
> MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=83130>
> and have been through about 25 rolls so far.
>
> Chris
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Markus Zingg <homebrew-pcb@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> >
> > I use Ordyl Alpha 900, but there are other products around. They
> are
> > used to produce PCBs. You may want to contact a board house near
> you to
> > ask for a local supplyer and what they use. The "problem" with the
> > resist is that you usually must buy two complete rolls. The
> smallest
> > ones tend to be 150m. But if you are a member of a forum or
> something
> > that does the stuff you do (and I get the impression that's the
> case),
> > then you may easily can motivate others to buy a set of rolls for a
> few
> > members. I did a similar thing. I bought two rolls, used one for my
> own
> > needs but sold the other to a group of people thereby cutting my
> costs
> > in half. A roll, when stored in a fridge and when you hand cut
> peaces of
> > it will last ~2 years. Depending on the product, the storeage
> capability
> > depends on the environement temperature (should be below 10 degrees
> > celsius) and in some cases the exposure to oxygene. The good thing
> about
> > the ordyl alpha is that it is not that much critical with regard to
> > oxygene that said it's sufficient to store the roll in the
> fridge. :-)
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Markus
> >
> > Chris schrieb:
> > >
> > > Markus,
> > >
> > > Thanks, I will just stick to Ferric Chloride.
> > >
> > > If it's daytime I expose outside in about 1 minute.
> > >
> > > I am interested in the resist film you mentioned. The stuff I use
> if
> > > from Micro Mark and I think is what people use to sandblast
> images on
> > > glass. Can you post a link to where I can buy what your talking
> about?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Chris
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, Markus Zingg <homebrew-
> pcb@>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Chris,
> > > >
> > > > I don't think that you can much optimize your process by
> changeing
> > > the
> > > > etchant. You easily can optimize the etching process itself
> though.
> > > You
> > > > may want to optimize some other steps in your process too:
> > > >
> > > > a) exposure. Use an exposure unit (self built if you want, there
> > > are
> > > > plenty of projects/plans around) That way you expose the stuff
> in
> > > as few
> > > > as 10 seconds. The key factor here is the light source which
> should
> > > be
> > > > ultra violet.
> > > >
> > > > b) The resist you use seems quite odd to me (requiereing wet
> > > > application). There is dry film resist out there which should do
> > > much
> > > > better. Simply laminate that one onto the brass. Should be a
> matter
> > > of
> > > > ~3 minutes and not fuzzing around with water etc.
> > > >
> > > > c) Build a bubble etcher with a heater element in int. That way
> I'm
> > > sure
> > > > you bring down your etching times significantly.
> > > >
> > > > You CAN use alternative etchants (and others here surely will
> give
> > > you
> > > > replies), but be warned that the alternatives are much more
> > > agressive to
> > > > the envireonement or cost significantly more because you can
> only
> > > use
> > > > the mixture for one (or very few) etch process(es). The nice
> thing
> > > about
> > > > Fe3Cl is that it lasts very very long when compared to the
> > > alternatives
> > > > and it's dirt cheap, and is also less dangerous. Other etchants
> are
> > > > extremly agressive to all your metal stuff surrouding the area
> > > where you
> > > > etch. I mean it, you would not be the first one using this stuff
> > > just to
> > > > find out that all of a sudden a lot of things around you get an
> > > instant
> > > > rust layer.... Natriumpersulfat on the other hand is compareably
> > > > expensive and does not last very long.
> > > >
> > > > Just my 2\ufffd
> > > >
> > > > Markus
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>