Homebrew PCBs

Hi folks! 
As all of you, i'm trying to make my first PCB, too. And, as many of 
you, i too have problems. I tried several papers, (since i'm in 
Europe, i can't get a hold of those mentioned in groups, usually from 
USA), and most of the times some of the toner peels off, while last 
layer of paper is very hard to remove. I have measured temp on my 
iron, and it's about 230 degrees, so it is enough. I even tried with 
lower temp (about 200) but results were the same. 
So, i guess my next try is transparency. But, here i need some info, 
please. Like what do you do toi prevent transparency to crook 
(distort) from heat? Maybe by applying iron on parts and not on whole 
board? how long should all last? And would transparency work in 
laminator? 

Any of suggestions would be very welcome. 

Thanks! Paul, Slovenia

maybe you can get the zweckform/avery paper i use (in Austria)?
Look in the database section for the number.

ST


On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 18:01:08 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
<protoncek@...> wrote:

> Hi folks!
>
> As all of you, i'm trying to make my first PCB, too. And, as many of
>
> you, i too have problems. I tried several papers, (since i'm in
>
> Europe, i can't get a hold of those mentioned in groups, usually from
>
> USA), and most of the times some of the toner peels off, while last
>
> layer of paper is very hard to remove. I have measured temp on my
>
> iron, and it's about 230 degrees, so it is enough. I even tried with
>
> lower temp (about 200) but results were the same.
>
> So, i guess my next try is transparency. But, here i need some info,
>
> please. Like what do you do toi prevent transparency to crook
>
> (distort) from heat? Maybe by applying iron on parts and not on whole
>
> board? how long should all last? And would transparency work in
>
> laminator?
>
>
> Any of suggestions would be very welcome.
>
>
> Thanks! Paul, Slovenia

WOW! i didn't find that section...i'm new in this kind of posting...
Thanks a lot! I'll check out your data and surely find suitable 
paper....even a quick look indicates a HP paper, which IS available 
here. 
It's just...i did buy a few brands (mostly canon so far), but there 
are so many that i'd spend a fortune to test them all...

I think if others do it succesfully, so should i...sooner or later. 
I hope sooner.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> maybe you can get the zweckform/avery paper i use (in Austria)?
> Look in the database section for the number.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 18:01:08 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
> <protoncek@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hi folks!
> >
> > As all of you, i'm trying to make my first PCB, too. And, as 
many of
> >
> > you, i too have problems. I tried several papers, (since i'm in
> >
> > Europe, i can't get a hold of those mentioned in groups, usually 
from
> >
> > USA), and most of the times some of the toner peels off, while 
last
> >
> > layer of paper is very hard to remove. I have measured temp on my
> >
> > iron, and it's about 230 degrees, so it is enough. I even tried 
with
> >
> > lower temp (about 200) but results were the same.
> >
> > So, i guess my next try is transparency. But, here i need some 
info,
> >
> > please. Like what do you do toi prevent transparency to crook
> >
> > (distort) from heat? Maybe by applying iron on parts and not on 
whole

> >
> > board? how long should all last? And would transparency work in
> >
> > laminator?
> >
> >
> > Any of suggestions would be very welcome.
> >
> >
> > Thanks! Paul, Slovenia
>

Paul,

I've suspected (guessing) that maybe a bunch of that stuff is sourced 
from the same people, or it least there's one there of a similar 
formulation. I have no real idea how the paper industry works. A known 
good one could also maybe be mail ordered. The "regular people" packs 
that I get here are usually way more than enough, so if you grab a 
cheap 30 pack or something, you should be set for some time. I think 
that type that leaves the film may be your best bet, especially if 
this dish detergent thing works out.

I had a noticeable improvement after laminating the base of my iron 
with eighth inch aluminum plate, using a thin film of JBWeld. I think 
it spreads the heat more evenly and takes care of those steam holes. 
Some of that may resolve the problem areas you're getting. I just 
posted mention of a wet paper towel technique that helped with some of 
the "lifting". I keep a damp, folded one near the board, lay it over 
and do a quick squash toward the end of the ironing, before things 
start cooling. I'll also sometimes roll back and forth with a rubber 
"J" roller while it cools. Have your stuff ready and do all that back-
to-back for the initial cool down (most critical stage).

-Good Luck,
George

Hi Paul,

With transparencies, you should use a thin cloth or double/quadruple 
layer of paper towel.  I set the temp on my iron to somewhere around 
wool or cotton.  I've used linen, but that's too hot and discolors the 
paper towel I use to protect the transparency.

Direct contact between the iron and transparency will make the 
transparency melt.

You want to get sufficient toner melting to get good transfer and 
minimal pitting, but not enough to cause enough smearing to cause 
shorts.

I've been using HP inkjet transparencies (non Premium version) and hav 
been getting good results.  I have some pitting, particularly in 
copper fills.  The fill areas are easily touched up with a marker - I 
use fine point black Sharpie.

I just tried some Compusa inkjet transparencies.  They work, but not 
as well as HP.  They're about 2/3 of the price of HP, so I'd like to 
try tweaking my ironing.

There is a film that should be removed before etching, but mild 
scrubbing with a little water and liquid hand soap and a toothbrush 
does it for me.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
<protoncek@...> wrote:
> So, i guess my next try is transparency. But, here i need some info, 
> please. Like what do you do toi prevent transparency to crook 
> (distort) from heat? Maybe by applying iron on parts and not on 
whole 

> board? how long should all last? And would transparency work in 
> laminator? 
> 
> Any of suggestions would be very welcome. 
> 
> Thanks! Paul, Slovenia
>

The thing is, the "great" HP paper mentioned is not sold to us A4 people  
here, i tried already.
I did not try any other HP paper than "HP Bright White Inkjet" 90g/m^2  
250Sheets, only about 4 times the price of the cheapest copier paper  
Number C5977b.
This paper is NOT SUITABLE, it is not better than plain copier paper  
(doesn't release toner).
So don't waste your time with this one.

Note the allegedly great Q2419A is a high gloss LASER paper not INKJET  
like most working papers. So if you see a high gloss laser paper from HP  
it is worth a try.

I also have Verbatim Glossy Photo Paper A4 100 Sheets 150gsm for Inkjet  
Printers. Reorder No. 38996.
This paper works, but is kinda hard to rub off. It is glossy, and the  
definition seems to be sharper than the matte zweckform paper, but the  
glossy coat is like another layer to rub off.

I agree it is a royal pain for the wallet to try out a larger number of  
papers, but maybe between the two of us we can get more done than alone. I  
didn't have such great luck so far with shared information since most  
people here are in the US with different paper sizes and brands.

If you can get the same paper in different weights buy the thinnest one if  
they all have the same coating. Sometimes you can find a table at the back  
of the packet listing all papers of this family, which quite often have  
the same coating. Thinner paper will print with more toner and will come  
off easier.

I'll enter the two more papers i tried in the database.

ST

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:08:41 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
<protoncek@...> wrote:

> WOW! i didn't find that section...i'm new in this kind of posting...
>
> Thanks a lot! I'll check out your data and surely find suitable
>
> paper....even a quick look indicates a HP paper, which IS available
>
> here.
>
> It's just...i did buy a few brands (mostly canon so far), but there
>
> are so many that i'd spend a fortune to test them all...
>
>
> I think if others do it succesfully, so should i...sooner or later.
>
> I hope sooner.

I'll post just once and reply to all...
first to stefan:
I found one dealer who should have this HP high gloss laser paper. 
It's just...why is always the best and most expensive ?it only comes 
in 200 sheets and costs about 56 euro...i'll go and ask them if they 
have it.

i have one old iron which doesn't have steam, but i guess i'll 
better check out if it has level surface...otherwise aluminium plate 
is a good solution.

i'll try out transparency with cloth protection, as you suggested 
and see the results. it's just... Murphy has made sure that (again) 
i have plenty of laser transparencies, but i'm out of inkjet 
ones...so, out to store you go...

i'll try to get some cheaper version of that famous HP...from posted 
it's just too good to be true. If i get it and get some results, i 
will post them, too.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
<protoncek@...> wrote:
>
> Hi folks! 
> As all of you, i'm trying to make my first PCB, too. And, as many 
of 
> you, i too have problems. I tried several papers, (since i'm in 
> Europe, i can't get a hold of those mentioned in groups, usually 
from 
> USA), and most of the times some of the toner peels off, while 
last 
> layer of paper is very hard to remove. I have measured temp on my 
> iron, and it's about 230 degrees, so it is enough. I even tried 
with 
> lower temp (about 200) but results were the same. 
> So, i guess my next try is transparency. But, here i need some 
info, 
> please. Like what do you do toi prevent transparency to crook 
> (distort) from heat? Maybe by applying iron on parts and not on 
whole 

> board? how long should all last? And would transparency work in 
> laminator? 
> 
> Any of suggestions would be very welcome. 
> 
> Thanks! Paul, Slovenia
>

Hello Sir Paul,

I have also tried many different chemicals, to get that last layer off
the board...to no avail.

I finally found out that 'boiling water' does it. I keep the board in
the boilding water, with a pair of needle-nose pliers, then I use that
green scouring pad, and scrub it off, while keeping that board good
and hot. Works well for me, my friend.

                                 ...your friend, Patrick

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman"
<protoncek@...> wrote:

>
> I'll post just once and reply to all...
> first to stefan:
> I found one dealer who should have this HP high gloss laser paper. 
> It's just...why is always the best and most expensive ?it only comes 
> in 200 sheets and costs about 56 euro...i'll go and ask them if they 
> have it.
> 
> i have one old iron which doesn't have steam, but i guess i'll 
> better check out if it has level surface...otherwise aluminium plate 
> is a good solution.
> 
> i'll try out transparency with cloth protection, as you suggested 
> and see the results. it's just... Murphy has made sure that (again) 
> i have plenty of laser transparencies, but i'm out of inkjet 
> ones...so, out to store you go...
> 
> i'll try to get some cheaper version of that famous HP...from posted 
> it's just too good to be true. If i get it and get some results, i 
> will post them, too.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
> <protoncek@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi folks! 
> > As all of you, i'm trying to make my first PCB, too. And, as many 
> of 
> > you, i too have problems. I tried several papers, (since i'm in 
> > Europe, i can't get a hold of those mentioned in groups, usually 
> from 
> > USA), and most of the times some of the toner peels off, while 
> last 
> > layer of paper is very hard to remove. I have measured temp on my 
> > iron, and it's about 230 degrees, so it is enough. I even tried 
> with 
> > lower temp (about 200) but results were the same. 
> > So, i guess my next try is transparency. But, here i need some 
> info, 
> > please. Like what do you do toi prevent transparency to crook 
> > (distort) from heat? Maybe by applying iron on parts and not on 
> whole 
> > board? how long should all last? And would transparency work in 
> > laminator? 
> > 
> > Any of suggestions would be very welcome. 
> > 
> > Thanks! Paul, Slovenia
> >
>

On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:58:09 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
<protoncek@...> wrote:

> I'll post just once and reply to all...
>
> first to stefan:
>
> I found one dealer who should have this HP high gloss laser paper.
>
> It's just...why is always the best and most expensive ?it only comes
>
> in 200 sheets and costs about 56 euro...i'll go and ask them if they
>
> have it.
>


Now that's pricy. It's a lot of sheets too, but if it doesn't work well  
that's a lot of money to waste.

I really must try to debug that silicone paper. Maybe it would work well  
with a heavier coat of toner.
I'll try printing twice, a large area, then it doesn't matter if i hit the  
exact same spot.


>
> i have one old iron which doesn't have steam, but i guess i'll
>
> better check out if it has level surface...otherwise aluminium plate
>
> is a good solution.

My recommendation is to get a laminator or modify a fuser fairly soon, the  
results are simply much more reliable and repeatable.


ST

I have tried the HP premium transparencies as that is all they had 
at the Staples here in Canada. The results were very poor going 
through a Laserjet 6L. I did not bother to even try it on the board 
as there was some open areas and low toner adhesion. I will try with 
a different laser printer and let you guys know. Has anyone tried 
the Staples brand of transparencies?? 


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "braincambre500" 
<braincambre500@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Hello Sir Paul,
> 
> I have also tried many different chemicals, to get that last layer 
off
> the board...to no avail.
> 
> I finally found out that 'boiling water' does it. I keep the board 
in
> the boilding water, with a pair of needle-nose pliers, then I use 
that
> green scouring pad, and scrub it off, while keeping that board good
> and hot. Works well for me, my friend.
> 
>                                  ...your friend, Patrick
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman"
> <protoncek@> wrote:
> >
> > I'll post just once and reply to all...
> > first to stefan:
> > I found one dealer who should have this HP high gloss laser 
paper. 
> > It's just...why is always the best and most expensive ?it only 
comes 
> > in 200 sheets and costs about 56 euro...i'll go and ask them if 
they 
> > have it.
> > 
> > i have one old iron which doesn't have steam, but i guess i'll 
> > better check out if it has level surface...otherwise aluminium 
plate 
> > is a good solution.
> > 
> > i'll try out transparency with cloth protection, as you 
suggested 
> > and see the results. it's just... Murphy has made sure that 
(again) 
> > i have plenty of laser transparencies, but i'm out of inkjet 
> > ones...so, out to store you go...
> > 
> > i'll try to get some cheaper version of that famous HP...from 
posted 
> > it's just too good to be true. If i get it and get some results, 
i 
> > will post them, too.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
> > <protoncek@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi folks! 
> > > As all of you, i'm trying to make my first PCB, too. And, as 
many 
> > of 
> > > you, i too have problems. I tried several papers, (since i'm 
in 
> > > Europe, i can't get a hold of those mentioned in groups, 
usually 
> > from 
> > > USA), and most of the times some of the toner peels off, while 
> > last 
> > > layer of paper is very hard to remove. I have measured temp on 
my 
> > > iron, and it's about 230 degrees, so it is enough. I even 
tried 
> > with 
> > > lower temp (about 200) but results were the same. 
> > > So, i guess my next try is transparency. But, here i need some 
> > info, 
> > > please. Like what do you do toi prevent transparency to crook 
> > > (distort) from heat? Maybe by applying iron on parts and not 
on 
> > whole 
> > > board? how long should all last? And would transparency work 
in 

> > > laminator? 
> > > 
> > > Any of suggestions would be very welcome. 
> > > 
> > > Thanks! Paul, Slovenia
> > >
> >
>

I've been in a store today where they sell HP stuff. Even if this 
high-gloss laser paper is in their price list, they hardly know it 
exists. So, they promised me that they will look into it. In the 
meanwhile they gave me two sample sheets - one HP laserjet tough 
paper - kind of plastic waterproof one...which turned out bad since 
most of the toner remained on the sheet. then HP everyday photo 
paper - useless, since transfer comes out totally smudged. Next one 
was HP laserjet soft gloss paper. This one is better - toner 
transfers excellent, sharp, and when i put it into water paper goes 
off in less than a minute. Remaining last layer (which isn't 
plastic, since this paper doesn't have high gloss finish) is 
scrubbed easily with fingers. All would be excellent if a few parts 
of toner wouldn't keep falling off when scrubbing. I tried from 1 to 
5 minutes of ironing, to no avail. I wonder if my iron is really 
that unlevel...
Second thing is you mustn't move iron since this paper doesn't 
really stick to copper and moving results in smudged transfer and 
wasted procedure. I think i prepare my board well enough, so that 
isn't it. so...back to experimenting.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dsv1486" 
<darrell.vandenberg@...> wrote:
>
> I have tried the HP premium transparencies as that is all they had 
> at the Staples here in Canada. The results were very poor going 
> through a Laserjet 6L. I did not bother to even try it on the 
board 
> as there was some open areas and low toner adhesion. I will try 
with 
> a different laser printer and let you guys know. Has anyone tried 
> the Staples brand of transparencies?? 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "braincambre500" 
> <braincambre500@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Hello Sir Paul,
> > 
> > I have also tried many different chemicals, to get that last 
layer 
> off
> > the board...to no avail.
> > 
> > I finally found out that 'boiling water' does it. I keep the 
board 
> in
> > the boilding water, with a pair of needle-nose pliers, then I 
use 
> that
> > green scouring pad, and scrub it off, while keeping that board 
good
> > and hot. Works well for me, my friend.
> > 
> >                                  ...your friend, Patrick
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman"
> > <protoncek@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'll post just once and reply to all...
> > > first to stefan:
> > > I found one dealer who should have this HP high gloss laser 
> paper. 
> > > It's just...why is always the best and most expensive ?it only 
> comes 
> > > in 200 sheets and costs about 56 euro...i'll go and ask them 
if 
> they 
> > > have it.
> > > 
> > > i have one old iron which doesn't have steam, but i guess i'll 
> > > better check out if it has level surface...otherwise aluminium 
> plate 
> > > is a good solution.
> > > 
> > > i'll try out transparency with cloth protection, as you 
> suggested 
> > > and see the results. it's just... Murphy has made sure that 
> (again) 
> > > i have plenty of laser transparencies, but i'm out of inkjet 
> > > ones...so, out to store you go...
> > > 
> > > i'll try to get some cheaper version of that famous HP...from 
> posted 
> > > it's just too good to be true. If i get it and get some 
results, 
> i 
> > > will post them, too.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
> > > <protoncek@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi folks! 
> > > > As all of you, i'm trying to make my first PCB, too. And, as 
> many 
> > > of 
> > > > you, i too have problems. I tried several papers, (since i'm 
> in 
> > > > Europe, i can't get a hold of those mentioned in groups, 
> usually 
> > > from 
> > > > USA), and most of the times some of the toner peels off, 
while 
> > > last 
> > > > layer of paper is very hard to remove. I have measured temp 
on 
> my 
> > > > iron, and it's about 230 degrees, so it is enough. I even 
> tried 
> > > with 
> > > > lower temp (about 200) but results were the same. 
> > > > So, i guess my next try is transparency. But, here i need 
some 
> > > info, 
> > > > please. Like what do you do toi prevent transparency to 
crook 

> > > > (distort) from heat? Maybe by applying iron on parts and not 
> on 
> > > whole 
> > > > board? how long should all last? And would transparency work 
> in 
> > > > laminator? 
> > > > 
> > > > Any of suggestions would be very welcome. 
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks! Paul, Slovenia
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi Darrell,

I have some scrap layout on non-premium HP transparencies that I can 
send you to try transferring.  Did you change the printer settings 
to dark and max dpi when printing?  I too noticed that most office 
supply stores are only carrying the premium, and they usually come 
in 50 packs at about a dollar each...

I've had good success with the non-premium HP inkjet 
transparencies.  I tried some Compusa last weekend, but am not 
getting as good of a transfer.  With HP, I usually only touch up 
fills and accept minor pitting on traces.  With the Compusa, I'd be 
inclined to touch up some traces and that's too much work.  I'll 
keep working on my technique with those to see if I can get them to 
work.

I'd like to try the premium inkjet transparencies.  I can trade you 
a few sheets of my transparencies.  If they don't work for you, it 
might be your printer.

I've had good transfers with an HP Laserjet 8100DN and a Lexmark 
Optra E+ (with refilled toner cart).

The Compusa printed very well and while I was transferring, I 
noticed fewer pin holes in the fill areas.  But, I was disappointed 
when I peeled the transparency.  Too much toner remained on the 
transparency.  I'll experiment with heat, pressure, and peeling temp 
to see if that makes a difference.

Low toner adhesion on the transparency shouldn't be an issue as long 
as it doesn't get rubbed off before you transfer.  Low adhesion 
seems like it would be beneficial...  Unprinted areas could be a 
printer/toner problem because I haven't had that problem with either 
inkjet transparency I've tried.  I also tried Phaser wax 
transparencies; they worked better than laser transparencies, but 
not as good as inkjet.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dsv1486" 
<darrell.vandenberg@...> wrote:
>
> I have tried the HP premium transparencies as that is all they had 
> at the Staples here in Canada. The results were very poor going 
> through a Laserjet 6L. I did not bother to even try it on the 
board 
> as there was some open areas and low toner adhesion. I will try 
with 
> a different laser printer and let you guys know. Has anyone tried 
> the Staples brand of transparencies??

If you have good transfers in most areas it is probably not the paper.

Try a laminator or fuser, and make sure your board cleaning procedure is  
perfect.

ST


On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:51:35 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
<protoncek@...> wrote:

> I've been in a store today where they sell HP stuff. Even if this
>
> high-gloss laser paper is in their price list, they hardly know it
>
> exists. So, they promised me that they will look into it. In the
>
> meanwhile they gave me two sample sheets - one HP laserjet tough
>
> paper - kind of plastic waterproof one...which turned out bad since
>
> most of the toner remained on the sheet. then HP everyday photo
>
> paper - useless, since transfer comes out totally smudged. Next one
>
> was HP laserjet soft gloss paper. This one is better - toner
>
> transfers excellent, sharp, and when i put it into water paper goes
>
> off in less than a minute. Remaining last layer (which isn't
>
> plastic, since this paper doesn't have high gloss finish) is
>
> scrubbed easily with fingers. All would be excellent if a few parts
>
> of toner wouldn't keep falling off when scrubbing. I tried from 1 to
>
> 5 minutes of ironing, to no avail. I wonder if my iron is really
>
> that unlevel...
>
> Second thing is you mustn't move iron since this paper doesn't
>
> really stick to copper and moving results in smudged transfer and
>
> wasted procedure. I think i prepare my board well enough, so that
>
> isn't it. so...back to experimenting.

Hi,

If you're getting smearing/smudging, it might be your technique.  Too 
much heat, too much pressure, or allowing the paper to move during 
transfer.

Try applying heat on a portion of the artwork to get it to start 
sticking.  This should prevent subsequent movement.  If the paper is 
sticking to your iron, you can put a sheet of paper or paper towel 
between the iron and your transfer paper.  That way the intermediate 
material will stick and slide.  I use transparencies and must always 
put something between the transfer material and iron.  The 
transparencies often stick to the paper towel I use, so I heat and 
lift the paper towel while holding down the transparency until the 
transparency has had it's fill of paper fibers.  Then I can iron and 
lift at will without worrying about the paper towel repositioning the 
transparency.

Smearing and smudging could also be caused by too much heat or too 
much pressure.  This was always a problem for me when I used paper.  
You can't see how things are melting, so timing and technique are 
important.

With transparencies, you can see the pattern and inspect it as you're 
ironing for problems - like some areas getting too much/little 
heat/pressure or smearing/spreading.  I iron until I get some 
noticeable spreading so I know toner has been heated enough.  I also 
like to start closing the holes on pads so I'm left with just a pilot 
hole - for easier drilling.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
<protoncek@...> wrote:

> Second thing is you mustn't move iron since this paper doesn't 
> really stick to copper and moving results in smudged transfer and 
> wasted procedure. I think i prepare my board well enough, so that 
> isn't it. so...back to experimenting.

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:19:55 +0100, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

> With transparencies, you can see the pattern and inspect it as you're
>
> ironing for problems - like some areas getting too much/little
>
> heat/pressure or smearing/spreading.  I iron until I get some
>
> noticeable spreading so I know toner has been heated enough.  I also
>
> like to start closing the holes on pads so I'm left with just a pilot
>
> hole - for easier drilling.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dennis


That sounds like a lot of spreading - how small a trace/pad/spacing can  
you get this way?

ST

So, first i'd like to explain fuser...what exactly this is...? i 
know it's in laser printers (i have one waste :-) )...

Secondly...with this last paper (HP soft gloss) it's kinda harder 
since, as said, paper doesn't really stick to the board, which is 
good in the look of easy removing, and bad in the look of possible 
sliding. I'll try to tape it somehow, but just normal sello-tape 
won't do since it melts.

I guess it's really best if i get a hold on some 
laminator...damn...i didn't think this start is so hard...
but luckily it seems i have you guys to help me out, so i thank you 
all!


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
<protoncek@...> wrote:
>
> I've been in a store today where they sell HP stuff. Even if this 
> high-gloss laser paper is in their price list, they hardly know it 
> exists. So, they promised me that they will look into it. In the 
> meanwhile they gave me two sample sheets - one HP laserjet tough 
> paper - kind of plastic waterproof one...which turned out bad 
since 
> most of the toner remained on the sheet. then HP everyday photo 
> paper - useless, since transfer comes out totally smudged. Next 
one 
> was HP laserjet soft gloss paper. This one is better - toner 
> transfers excellent, sharp, and when i put it into water paper 
goes 
> off in less than a minute. Remaining last layer (which isn't 
> plastic, since this paper doesn't have high gloss finish) is 
> scrubbed easily with fingers. All would be excellent if a few 
parts 
> of toner wouldn't keep falling off when scrubbing. I tried from 1 
to 
> 5 minutes of ironing, to no avail. I wonder if my iron is really 
> that unlevel...
> Second thing is you mustn't move iron since this paper doesn't 
> really stick to copper and moving results in smudged transfer and 
> wasted procedure. I think i prepare my board well enough, so that 
> isn't it. so...back to experimenting.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dsv1486" 
> <darrell.vandenberg@> wrote:
> >
> > I have tried the HP premium transparencies as that is all they 
had 
> > at the Staples here in Canada. The results were very poor going 
> > through a Laserjet 6L. I did not bother to even try it on the 
> board 
> > as there was some open areas and low toner adhesion. I will try 
> with 
> > a different laser printer and let you guys know. Has anyone 
tried 
> > the Staples brand of transparencies?? 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "braincambre500" 
> > <braincambre500@> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > Hello Sir Paul,
> > > 
> > > I have also tried many different chemicals, to get that last 
> layer 
> > off
> > > the board...to no avail.
> > > 
> > > I finally found out that 'boiling water' does it. I keep the 
> board 
> > in
> > > the boilding water, with a pair of needle-nose pliers, then I 
> use 
> > that
> > > green scouring pad, and scrub it off, while keeping that board 
> good
> > > and hot. Works well for me, my friend.
> > > 
> > >                                  ...your friend, Patrick
> > > 
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman"
> > > <protoncek@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'll post just once and reply to all...
> > > > first to stefan:
> > > > I found one dealer who should have this HP high gloss laser 
> > paper. 
> > > > It's just...why is always the best and most expensive ?it 
only 
> > comes 
> > > > in 200 sheets and costs about 56 euro...i'll go and ask them 
> if 
> > they 
> > > > have it.
> > > > 
> > > > i have one old iron which doesn't have steam, but i guess 
i'll 
> > > > better check out if it has level surface...otherwise 
aluminium 
> > plate 
> > > > is a good solution.
> > > > 
> > > > i'll try out transparency with cloth protection, as you 
> > suggested 
> > > > and see the results. it's just... Murphy has made sure that 
> > (again) 
> > > > i have plenty of laser transparencies, but i'm out of inkjet 
> > > > ones...so, out to store you go...
> > > > 
> > > > i'll try to get some cheaper version of that famous 
HP...from 
> > posted 
> > > > it's just too good to be true. If i get it and get some 
> results, 
> > i 
> > > > will post them, too.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
> > > > <protoncek@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi folks! 
> > > > > As all of you, i'm trying to make my first PCB, too. And, 
as 
> > many 
> > > > of 
> > > > > you, i too have problems. I tried several papers, (since 
i'm 
> > in 
> > > > > Europe, i can't get a hold of those mentioned in groups, 
> > usually 
> > > > from 
> > > > > USA), and most of the times some of the toner peels off, 
> while 
> > > > last 
> > > > > layer of paper is very hard to remove. I have measured 
temp 
> on 
> > my 
> > > > > iron, and it's about 230 degrees, so it is enough. I even 
> > tried 
> > > > with 
> > > > > lower temp (about 200) but results were the same. 
> > > > > So, i guess my next try is transparency. But, here i need 
> some 
> > > > info, 
> > > > > please. Like what do you do toi prevent transparency to 
> crook 
> > > > > (distort) from heat? Maybe by applying iron on parts and 
not 
> > on 
> > > > whole 
> > > > > board? how long should all last? And would transparency 
work 

> > in 
> > > > > laminator? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Any of suggestions would be very welcome. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks! Paul, Slovenia
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi,

It's not really that much spreading and is completely controlled by 
me...

I typically use 16 mil traces.  I use 10 mil as cut lines.  For 
spaces I go down to 5 mil, but I minimize putting too many "hard" 
areas on the board.  I can route 10 mil traces between IC pads, but 
I avoid them as much as possible to minimize touch up.  If I allow 
enough spearing to create shorts, I simply run an Xacto knife 
through the short to separate.  Only need a mil or two to avoid a 
solder bridge.  Picking the area to apply solder can also avoid 
shorts on tight areas.  Same deal if I under etch and have a short; 
use an Xacto knife to cut the copper and make sure I solder in a way 
to avoid creating a short.  I always apply enough solder to get 
a "wet" joint, but soldering from the right direction can avoid 
shorts in tight pitches.

I intentionally use the smallest hole size Eagle has for all of my 
pad/via holes and want them to start closing.  Maybe the way I 
described "closing" was misleading.  But on "loose" layout, I can 
almost close the holes and not create any shorts.  Whether this is 
too much "spreading" is subjective.  If it doesn't create shorts, I 
don't consider it to be too much.  I would never intentionally 
create more work for myself, but clearing one short is better than 
having to patch opens after etching.  I usually avoid too 
much "spreading" near my logo so the copyright mark doesn't turn 
into a blob.  When using an iron, I can be selective about the areas 
that get more or less heat or pressure.

If you look at the layout I posted in my album, you'll see that I 
widen all pads for improved manufacturability, solderability, and 
reworkability.  The design I posted didn't have the pads oversized 
enough, so in some cases, I had to be very careful about drilling 
the holes.  That was my prototype and I corrected any problems in 
rev1.  My goal is to route the board so it's easy to make.  All 
traces are sized so that minor pitting can be tolerated.  I touch up 
fill areas purely for cosmetic reasons.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> That sounds like a lot of spreading - how small a 
trace/pad/spacing can  

> you get this way?
> 
> ST

As many have said there's some sort of experience threshold, after which  
you'll be able to make at least a well useable board each time.

A fuser is the unit with two rollers between the paper passes. One roller  
is aluminum heated by a lamp, the other is rubber.
If you take this out of the printer, add a temperature controller, and a  
motor, you have a great tool for fusing PCBs.

ST


On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:32:58 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
<protoncek@...> wrote:

> So, first i'd like to explain fuser...what exactly this is...? i
>
> know it's in laser printers (i have one waste  )...
>
>
> Secondly...with this last paper (HP soft gloss) it's kinda harder
>
> since, as said, paper doesn't really stick to the board, which is
>
> good in the look of easy removing, and bad in the look of possible
>
> sliding. I'll try to tape it somehow, but just normal sello-tape
>
> won't do since it melts.
>
>
> I guess it's really best if i get a hold on some
>
> laminator...damn...i didn't think this start is so hard...
>
> but luckily it seems i have you guys to help me out, so i thank you
>
> all!
>

Aha...great--- since i just dumped my old panasonic, i'll 
disassemble it and see what's usefull in there. Thanks!

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> As many have said there's some sort of experience threshold, after 
which  
> you'll be able to make at least a well useable board each time.
> 
> A fuser is the unit with two rollers between the paper passes. One 
roller  
> is aluminum heated by a lamp, the other is rubber.
> If you take this out of the printer, add a temperature controller, 
and a  
> motor, you have a great tool for fusing PCBs.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:32:58 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
> <protoncek@...> wrote:
> 
> > So, first i'd like to explain fuser...what exactly this is...? i
> >
> > know it's in laser printers (i have one waste  )...
> >
> >
> > Secondly...with this last paper (HP soft gloss) it's kinda harder
> >
> > since, as said, paper doesn't really stick to the board, which is
> >
> > good in the look of easy removing, and bad in the look of 
possible
> >
> > sliding. I'll try to tape it somehow, but just normal sello-tape
> >
> > won't do since it melts.
> >
> >
> > I guess it's really best if i get a hold on some
> >
> > laminator...damn...i didn't think this start is so hard...
> >
> > but luckily it seems i have you guys to help me out, so i thank 
you

> >
> > all!
> >
>

Hi Stefan,

I posted a picture of the artwork for the largest board I've done 
with inkjet transparency TT.  It's 160mm x 100mm, I think most of 
the traces were 10 mils.  I had around 4-5 opens and had problems 
with the narrow traces near the edges of the board over etching; 
some disappeared completely.  I know my etching method is what 
caused the problem.  My container was barely large enough to hold 
the board and I couldn't agitate it in the ferric chloride very 
well.  That caused the traces near the edges of the board to be over 
etched.

I didn't author this artwork, and don't have an easy way to edit to 
make it easier to make.

Most of the opens were hairline breaks, so I used conductive silver 
ink (mentioned it before) to bridge them.  One was large enough that
a wire was needed.  The trace near the top of the board was mostly 
gone, so I used some adhesive copper to bridge (several inches).  
Fortunately it was ground, so now the board has a messy looking 
partial ground plane.

This is one reason that most of my boards have a ground plane around 
the perimeter.  I found that it protects the traces I care about.

I could have done a better job with that board, but I was in a 
hurry.  I thought I was going to send someone a loaner programmer 
and having something that worked was more important than having 
something that looked nice.  Life is full of trade-offs and 
sometimes seeking perfection isn't realistic...

The programmer works perfectly, but I never needed to loan it out.  
So now I have a constant reminder of that embarassing piece of 
work...

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> That sounds like a lot of spreading - how small a 
trace/pad/spacing can  

> you get this way?
> 
> ST

just read elsewhere that someone has poor results with some type of 
cleaning pads...so i start to wonder if that is my case - namely, i 
currently use cork and ajax powder cleaner to polish the board. 
Visible board is perfect, but who really knows. So, i'll get some 
steel wool tomorrow and try with it. I wonder, what do you use? and 
is there any other thing necesarry after steel wool?
Thanks!


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> As many have said there's some sort of experience threshold, after 
which  
> you'll be able to make at least a well useable board each time.
> 
> A fuser is the unit with two rollers between the paper passes. One 
roller  
> is aluminum heated by a lamp, the other is rubber.
> If you take this out of the printer, add a temperature controller, 
and a  
> motor, you have a great tool for fusing PCBs.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:32:58 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
> <protoncek@...> wrote:
> 
> > So, first i'd like to explain fuser...what exactly this is...? i
> >
> > know it's in laser printers (i have one waste  )...
> >
> >
> > Secondly...with this last paper (HP soft gloss) it's kinda harder
> >
> > since, as said, paper doesn't really stick to the board, which is
> >
> > good in the look of easy removing, and bad in the look of 
possible
> >
> > sliding. I'll try to tape it somehow, but just normal sello-tape
> >
> > won't do since it melts.
> >
> >
> > I guess it's really best if i get a hold on some
> >
> > laminator...damn...i didn't think this start is so hard...
> >
> > but luckily it seems i have you guys to help me out, so i thank 
you

> >
> > all!
> >
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
<protoncek@...> wrote:
>
>  just read elsewhere that someone has poor results with some type 
of 
> cleaning pads...so i start to wonder if that is my case - namely, 
i 
> currently use cork and ajax powder cleaner to polish the board. 
> Visible board is perfect, but who really knows. So, i'll get some 
> steel wool tomorrow and try with it. I wonder, what do you use? 
and 
> is there any other thing necesarry after steel wool?
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
> <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >
> > As many have said there's some sort of experience threshold, 
after 
> which  
> > you'll be able to make at least a well useable board each time.
> > 
> > A fuser is the unit with two rollers between the paper passes. 
One 
> roller  
> > is aluminum heated by a lamp, the other is rubber.
> > If you take this out of the printer, add a temperature 
controller, 
> and a  
> > motor, you have a great tool for fusing PCBs.
> > 
> > ST
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:32:58 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
> > <protoncek@> wrote:
> > 
> > > So, first i'd like to explain fuser...what exactly this is...? 
i
> > >
> > > know it's in laser printers (i have one waste  )...
> > >
> > >
> > > Secondly...with this last paper (HP soft gloss) it's kinda 
harder
> > >
> > > since, as said, paper doesn't really stick to the board, which 
is
> > >
> > > good in the look of easy removing, and bad in the look of 
> possible
> > >
> > > sliding. I'll try to tape it somehow, but just normal sello-
tape
> > >
> > > won't do since it melts.
> > >
> > >
> > > I guess it's really best if i get a hold on some
> > >
> > > laminator...damn...i didn't think this start is so hard...
> > >
> > > but luckily it seems i have you guys to help me out, so i 
thank 

> you
> > >
> > > all!
> > >
> >
>

Hi,

I just use a Scotch Brite type of green synthetic scouring pad.  I 
clean in both directions to get a shiny criss-cross pattern on the 
board.  I wipe residue with a cloth/paper towel and finish cleaning 
with 98+% IPA.  I stand the boards at an angle (almost vertical) and 
let them air dry; I sometimes use compressed air.

I read that the cross hatch pattern might help hold the toner.  The 
things you really want to watch out for are oil and dust.  One speck 
of dust can prevent toner from transferring in a large area.

I don't spend much time cleaning boards before TT.

Sorry for the "empty" post.  Hit carriage return by accident.  Why 
doesn't this board let you edit/delete posts?

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
<protoncek@...> wrote:

>
>  just read elsewhere that someone has poor results with some type of 
> cleaning pads...so i start to wonder if that is my case - namely, i 
> currently use cork and ajax powder cleaner to polish the board. 
> Visible board is perfect, but who really knows. So, i'll get some 
> steel wool tomorrow and try with it. I wonder, what do you use? and 
> is there any other thing necesarry after steel wool?

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:47:46 +0100, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

> Sorry for the "empty" post.  Hit carriage return by accident.  Why
>
> doesn't this board let you edit/delete posts?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dennis


'cause they are already gone out per mail.
Don't worry 'bout it a empty post is quickly identified since your mail  
software uses proper > quoting.

ST

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:28:46 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
<protoncek@...> wrote:

>  just read elsewhere that someone has poor results with some type of
>
> cleaning pads...so i start to wonder if that is my case - namely, i
>
> currently use cork and ajax powder cleaner to polish the board.
>
> Visible board is perfect, but who really knows. So, i'll get some
>
> steel wool tomorrow and try with it. I wonder, what do you use? and
>
> is there any other thing necesarry after steel wool?
>
> Thanks!


I use 1000 grit paper or those plastic felt pads for cleaning copper  
tubing before soldering. If you get the pads watch out not to buy the very  
course variety they make ugly deep scratches. The pads are reuseable, from  
the paper i just rip off a piece maybe an inch square, it clogs up fast  
with the copper so not really good for more than one board.

Steel wool can embed small iron particles in the copper, if this is a  
problem i'll let you be the judge of.

After the sanding (just enough to get sanding marks on the whole surface)  
i wipe with alcohol.

This is a dry / no water process, which is why i like it. It makes little  
mess, only the minimal copper sanding dust.

ST

I know what you mean, i have the same problem, but not because of the  
etching.
The toner seems to break from the board easily before i can remove the  
paper on the outside traces or the board outline.
So now, if i don't make a ground plane anyway, i will have a second, wider  
outline surrounding the board to protect it.
This will often be partially over the board edge but that doesn't matter  
since it is cut off anyway.

ST

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:58:16 +0100, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:

> Hi Stefan,
>
>
> I posted a picture of the artwork for the largest board I've done
>
> with inkjet transparency TT.  It's 160mm x 100mm, I think most of
>
> the traces were 10 mils.  I had around 4-5 opens and had problems
>
> with the narrow traces near the edges of the board over etching;
>
> some disappeared completely.  I know my etching method is what
>
> caused the problem.  My container was barely large enough to hold
>
> the board and I couldn't agitate it in the ferric chloride very
>
> well.  That caused the traces near the edges of the board to be over
>
> etched.
>
>
> I didn't author this artwork, and don't have an easy way to edit to
>
> make it easier to make.
>
>
> Most of the opens were hairline breaks, so I used conductive silver
>
> ink (mentioned it before) to bridge them.  One was large enough that
>
> a wire was needed.  The trace near the top of the board was mostly
>
> gone, so I used some adhesive copper to bridge (several inches).
>
> Fortunately it was ground, so now the board has a messy looking
>
> partial ground plane.
>
>
> This is one reason that most of my boards have a ground plane around
>
> the perimeter.  I found that it protects the traces I care about.
>
>
> I could have done a better job with that board, but I was in a
>
> hurry.  I thought I was going to send someone a loaner programmer
>
> and having something that worked was more important than having
>
> something that looked nice.  Life is full of trade-offs and
>
> sometimes seeking perfection isn't realistic...
>
>
> The programmer works perfectly, but I never needed to loan it out.
>
> So now I have a constant reminder of that embarassing piece of
>
> work...
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dennis

I have always found using 1000 or 1500 sandpaper (get some 'adhesive 
foam sheet' from the craft section to make it easier to use by hand) 
to rough/clean the copper works much better than scotchbrite. Whenever 
I see 'use a scotchbrite pad', it always makes me wonder, just WHICH 
one they mean? There's at least a dozen different types/styles/grits.

After that, I clean it off with 91% Isopropyl alcohol which you can 
find in wal-mart or drugstores. It doesn't have MEK or methanol since 
it's already toxic on ingestion (but is safe for skin). Also, check to 
see if your paper towels are leaving a film as well. I was using Scott 
shop rags (the white ones) from Home Depot with acetone before, but 
they seem to leave residue on the metal. Using the isopropyl with 
regular Bounty or the one for window cleaning seems to make the metal 
much cleaner.

Thank you both. So, in short, a lot of trying and trying.
OK, will do (what else can i do...)
:-)


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:28:46 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
> <protoncek@...> wrote:
> 
> >  just read elsewhere that someone has poor results with some 
type of
> >
> > cleaning pads...so i start to wonder if that is my case - 
namely, i
> >
> > currently use cork and ajax powder cleaner to polish the board.
> >
> > Visible board is perfect, but who really knows. So, i'll get some
> >
> > steel wool tomorrow and try with it. I wonder, what do you use? 
and
> >
> > is there any other thing necesarry after steel wool?
> >
> > Thanks!
> 
> 
> I use 1000 grit paper or those plastic felt pads for cleaning 
copper  
> tubing before soldering. If you get the pads watch out not to buy 
the very  
> course variety they make ugly deep scratches. The pads are 
reuseable, from  
> the paper i just rip off a piece maybe an inch square, it clogs up 
fast  
> with the copper so not really good for more than one board.
> 
> Steel wool can embed small iron particles in the copper, if this 
is a  
> problem i'll let you be the judge of.
> 
> After the sanding (just enough to get sanding marks on the whole 
surface)  
> i wipe with alcohol.
> 
> This is a dry / no water process, which is why i like it. It makes 
little  

> mess, only the minimal copper sanding dust.
> 
> ST
>

Just one more thing maybe...
i wonder, how you do it after ironing-or laminator stuff is 
done...is it good to put it immediately - as soon as possible into 
hot (or cold?) water, or is it better idea to wait until toner is 
cooled down - i imagine that after iron is lifted, toner is still in 
liquid state and so putting it into water immediately can affect 
this on the very edges - especially with my current paper (laser 
soft gloss) which soakes very quickly---in seconds at the edges, 1 
minute tops for whole plate---


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "protonceksleeperman" 
<protoncek@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you both. So, in short, a lot of trying and trying.
> OK, will do (what else can i do...)
> :-)
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
> <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:28:46 +0100, protonceksleeperman  
> > <protoncek@> wrote:
> > 
> > >  just read elsewhere that someone has poor results with some 
> type of
> > >
> > > cleaning pads...so i start to wonder if that is my case - 
> namely, i
> > >
> > > currently use cork and ajax powder cleaner to polish the board.
> > >
> > > Visible board is perfect, but who really knows. So, i'll get 
some
> > >
> > > steel wool tomorrow and try with it. I wonder, what do you 
use? 
> and
> > >
> > > is there any other thing necesarry after steel wool?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > 
> > 
> > I use 1000 grit paper or those plastic felt pads for cleaning 
> copper  
> > tubing before soldering. If you get the pads watch out not to 
buy 
> the very  
> > course variety they make ugly deep scratches. The pads are 
> reuseable, from  
> > the paper i just rip off a piece maybe an inch square, it clogs 
up 
> fast  
> > with the copper so not really good for more than one board.
> > 
> > Steel wool can embed small iron particles in the copper, if this 
> is a  
> > problem i'll let you be the judge of.
> > 
> > After the sanding (just enough to get sanding marks on the whole 
> surface)  
> > i wipe with alcohol.
> > 
> > This is a dry / no water process, which is why i like it. It 
makes 

> little  
> > mess, only the minimal copper sanding dust.
> > 
> > ST
> >
>