Digital BW, The Print

ALL: I just loaded Piezo NK7's into my 2200 and
printed an old standby scanned negative with a full
range of tones including many dark grays.  Using the
QTR HPR 2880 NK7 curves and QTR the print was very
much lighter overall than same on 220 UTR2W with Paul
Roark's gamma 2.2 curve with the Epson driver; or C86
with EZW and Paul Roark's recommended settings in the
Epson driver.  All were sent with a gamma 2.2 profile
embedded - psd's for the 220 and C86 and tiff for the
QTR.  The R220 and C86 prints are very similar except
the C86 is noticeably warmer - but the densities are
quite similar. In order to get the NK7 on the 2200 to
match the other two in overall density, I had to place
the ink limit slider in QTR at +35 and the gamma
slider to +15.

BTW, on HPR the NK7 is less warm yet (near neutral to
my eye) than the R220 with the UTR2Warm and much
cooler than the C86 with EZWarm.  For this image I
prefer the somewhat warm R220 Warm set  - but such
things are, of course, a matter of taste.

The Piezo NK7 is indeed very smooth, although to my
eye it lacks a bit of "punch" relative to the other
two and the d-max is less even with the +35 ink limit
setting.

Am I missing something, or do I have some setting
wrong in the QTR for the NK7's in the 2200, such that
I must almost max out the ink limits and density to
get a WYSIWYG with this system? The WYSIWYG with the
other two systems is quite close even though I have
only calibrated my monitor visually with the Adobe
gamma loader. Any thoughts and advice would be
appreciated.

Michael Vendrell, MD.

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Michael,

You might try using QTR Gray-Matte.icc as your profile instead of Gray 
Gamma 2.2 with the K7's ( profile>convert: GG 2.2 to Gray-Matte with 
Black Point Compensation checked). I realize that the K7 Quick Start 
Guide recommends GG2.2, but in my experience Gray-Matte works much 
better, so much so that with my printer if I didn't know any better, I'd 
say the K7 curves were designed for use with Gray-Matte.icc. I should 
mention though that this is with Innova Photo Smooth Cotton and using a 
hardware calibrated monitor. With this work flow, the prints look very 
much like my monitor - no soft proofing needed. I've never thought the 
K7's lacked any punch compared to any other inks I've ever used or seen, 
including Piezos, MIS, UC's or K3's.
The other option you might try is to have a proper profile built for 
you, though without a hardware calibrated monitor, all bets are off.

Will

>From: Michael Vendrell <mjvendrell2@...>
>Subject: Piezo NK7  vs  R220 UTR2 W  vs  C86 EZW
>
>ALL: I just loaded Piezo NK7's into my 2200 and
>printed an old standby scanned negative with a full
>range of tones including many dark grays.  Using the
>QTR HPR 2880 NK7 curves and QTR the print was very
>much lighter overall than same on 220 UTR2W with Paul
>Roark's gamma 2.2 curve with the Epson driver; or C86
>with EZW and Paul Roark's recommended settings in the
>Epson driver.  All were sent with a gamma 2.2 profile
>embedded - psd's for the 220 and C86 and tiff for the
>QTR.  The R220 and C86 prints are very similar except
>the C86 is noticeably warmer - but the densities are
>quite similar. In order to get the NK7 on the 2200 to
>match the other two in overall density, I had to place
>the ink limit slider in QTR at +35 and the gamma
>slider to +15.
>
>BTW, on HPR the NK7 is less warm yet (near neutral to
>my eye) than the R220 with the UTR2Warm and much
>cooler than the C86 with EZWarm.  For this image I
>prefer the somewhat warm R220 Warm set  - but such
>things are, of course, a matter of taste.
>
>The Piezo NK7 is indeed very smooth, although to my
>eye it lacks a bit of "punch" relative to the other
>two and the d-max is less even with the +35 ink limit
>setting.
>
>Am I missing something, or do I have some setting
>wrong in the QTR for the NK7's in the 2200, such that
>I must almost max out the ink limits and density to
>get a WYSIWYG with this system? The WYSIWYG with the
>other two systems is quite close even though I have
>only calibrated my monitor visually with the Adobe
>gamma loader. Any thoughts and advice would be
>appreciated.
>
>Michael Vendrell, MD.
>  
>

Michael,

If you don't have the ability to create your own profiles using QTR-create-icc, then you 
need to be using Grey gamma 2.2 as your working space, and print with no color 
management from PS.  If you have a densitometer or spectrophotometer, I HIGHLY 
recommend using the IJM supplied curve for linearization, and then make your own 
profiles.

Good luck.

Josh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Vendrell 
<mjvendrell2@y...> wrote:

>
> ALL: I just loaded Piezo NK7's into my 2200 and
> printed an old standby scanned negative with a full
> range of tones including many dark grays.  Using the
> QTR HPR 2880 NK7 curves and QTR the print was very
> much lighter overall than same on 220 UTR2W with Paul
> Roark's gamma 2.2 curve with the Epson driver; or C86
> with EZW and Paul Roark's recommended settings in the
> Epson driver.  All were sent with a gamma 2.2 profile
> embedded - psd's for the 220 and C86 and tiff for the
> QTR.  The R220 and C86 prints are very similar except
> the C86 is noticeably warmer - but the densities are
> quite similar. In order to get the NK7 on the 2200 to
> match the other two in overall density, I had to place
> the ink limit slider in QTR at +35 and the gamma
> slider to +15.
> 
> BTW, on HPR the NK7 is less warm yet (near neutral to
> my eye) than the R220 with the UTR2Warm and much
> cooler than the C86 with EZWarm.  For this image I
> prefer the somewhat warm R220 Warm set  - but such
> things are, of course, a matter of taste.
> 
> The Piezo NK7 is indeed very smooth, although to my
> eye it lacks a bit of "punch" relative to the other
> two and the d-max is less even with the +35 ink limit
> setting.
> 
> Am I missing something, or do I have some setting
> wrong in the QTR for the NK7's in the 2200, such that
> I must almost max out the ink limits and density to
> get a WYSIWYG with this system? The WYSIWYG with the
> other two systems is quite close even though I have
> only calibrated my monitor visually with the Adobe
> gamma loader. Any thoughts and advice would be
> appreciated.
> 
> Michael Vendrell, MD.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Michael,

I've just started working with K6 Piezzo on my 7000.

What I can tell you is not all the premade curves are working for me
that well. But that is expected with an older printer like this. They
vary so much.

I am now using the curve Roy is calling K6 Raw. It is working great so
far on the Museo Max and William Turner. I need linearize this printer
and make my own cusom curves before really evaluating this inkset, 
but I can tell you right now, from the few small prints I have made
that I totally love it. There is nothing this smooth in the universe
and my blacks, visually at least, equal Epson MK. There is neutral,
and then there is neutral, and this is neutral.

john

> > Am I missing something, or do I have some setting
> > wrong in the QTR for the NK7's in the 2200, such that
> > I must almost max out the ink limits and density to
> > get a WYSIWYG with this system? The WYSIWYG with the
> > other two systems is quite close even though I have
> > only calibrated my monitor visually with the Adobe
> > gamma loader. Any thoughts and advice would be
> > appreciated.
> > 
> > Michael Vendrell, MD.
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>

Michael,

You might try using QTR Gray-Matte.icc as your profile instead of Gray
Gamma 2.2 with the K7's (profile>convert: GG 2.2 to Gray-Matte with
Black Point Compensation checked). I realize that the K7 Quick Start
Guide recommends GG2.2, but in my experience Gray-Matte works much
better, so much so that with my 2200 if I didn't know any better, I'd
say the K7 curves were designed for use with Gray-Matte.icc. I should
mention though that this is with Innova Photo Smooth Cotton and using
a hardware calibrated monitor. With this work flow, the prints look
very much like my monitor - no soft proofing needed. I've never
thought the K7's lacked any punch compared to any other inks I've ever
used or seen, including Piezos, MIS, UC's or K3's and they are
incredibly smooth.
The other option you might try is to have a proper profile built for
you, though without a hardware calibrated monitor, all bets are off.

Will 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Vendrell
<mjvendrell2@y...> wrote:

> Am I missing something, or do I have some setting
> wrong in the QTR for the NK7's in the 2200, such that
> I must almost max out the ink limits and density to
> get a WYSIWYG with this system? The WYSIWYG with the
> other two systems is quite close even though I have
> only calibrated my monitor visually with the Adobe
> gamma loader. Any thoughts and advice would be
> appreciated.
> 
> Michael Vendrell, MD.
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Josh,  Thanks for your reply.  I did use IJM's curve
for the QTR GUI - the one I called "QTR HPR 2880 NK7 "
@100%. But the print was way too light without
adjusting the <ink limit>  and <gamma> sliders in the
QTR GUI. Do I need to use either that curve or another
curve somewhere else - or can I insert the curve into
the <print with preview> of PS CS2 instead or in
addition to, for example?  

Gray gamma 2.2 is/has been my working space and has
also been embedded with this tiff "test" file.  Are
you saying I should print from PS CS2 without using
the QTR GUI? 

I do so far prefer the <print with profile> options
that are in PS CS2 to those in the QTR GUI for layout
- e.g. one can specify a print size directly and
easily "center" the print with the bottom margin wider
than the other 3 margins. Again, am I missing
something about the QTR GUI?

BTW, yesterday was my 1st use of QTR and I will pay
soon - I just wanted to get the 1st print to "work"
first.  Maybe I'm just not doing something right or am
being incomplete in what needs to be done? Thanks
again for any help anyone is able to offer.

Michael Vendrell

--- joshhackney <joshhackney@...> wrote:

> 
> Michael,
> 
> If you don't have the ability to create your own
> profiles using QTR-create-icc, then you 
> need to be using Grey gamma 2.2 as your working
> space, and print with no color 
> management from PS.  If you have a densitometer or
> spectrophotometer, I HIGHLY 
> recommend using the IJM supplied curve for
> linearization, and then make your own 
> profiles.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Josh
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> Michael Vendrell 
> <mjvendrell2@y...> wrote:
> >
> > ALL: I just loaded Piezo NK7's into my 2200 and
> > printed an old standby scanned negative with a
> full
> > range of tones including many dark grays.  Using
> the
> > QTR HPR 2880 NK7 curves and QTR the print was very
> > much lighter overall than same on 220 UTR2W with
> Paul
> > Roark's gamma 2.2 curve with the Epson driver; or
> C86
> > with EZW and Paul Roark's recommended settings in
> the
> > Epson driver.  All were sent with a gamma 2.2
> profile
> > embedded - psd's for the 220 and C86 and tiff for
> the
> > QTR.  The R220 and C86 prints are very similar
> except
> > the C86 is noticeably warmer - but the densities
> are
> > quite similar. In order to get the NK7 on the 2200
> to
> > match the other two in overall density, I had to
> place
> > the ink limit slider in QTR at +35 and the gamma
> > slider to +15.
> > 
> > BTW, on HPR the NK7 is less warm yet (near neutral
> to
> > my eye) than the R220 with the UTR2Warm and much
> > cooler than the C86 with EZWarm.  For this image I
> > prefer the somewhat warm R220 Warm set  - but such
> > things are, of course, a matter of taste.
> > 
> > The Piezo NK7 is indeed very smooth, although to
> my
> > eye it lacks a bit of "punch" relative to the
> other
> > two and the d-max is less even with the +35 ink
> limit
> > setting.
> > 
> > Am I missing something, or do I have some setting
> > wrong in the QTR for the NK7's in the 2200, such
> that
> > I must almost max out the ink limits and density
> to
> > get a WYSIWYG with this system? The WYSIWYG with
> the
> > other two systems is quite close even though I
> have
> > only calibrated my monitor visually with the Adobe
> > gamma loader. Any thoughts and advice would be
> > appreciated.
> > 
> > Michael Vendrell, MD.
> > 
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Thanks  Will - I'll give that a try.  Yes indeed the
NK7 is very smooth and neutral - maybe my immediate
impression of less "punch" was a low blow (pun
intended) - my vision being clouded by my frustration
at the time. Yes, I.m sure instrument calibration will
help me fine tune - but this is a very coarse tuning
problem at the moment (I'm assuming due to something
I'm doing wrong) - and I was getting pretty good
WYSIWYG with the R220 and C86 w/o instruments any with
very little trouble.

Thanks again, Michael

--- Will <will@...> wrote:

> Michael,
> 
> You might try using QTR Gray-Matte.icc as your
> profile instead of Gray 
> Gamma 2.2 with the K7's ( profile>convert: GG 2.2 to
> Gray-Matte with 
> Black Point Compensation checked). I realize that
> the K7 Quick Start 
> Guide recommends GG2.2, but in my experience
> Gray-Matte works much 
> better, so much so that with my printer if I didn't
> know any better, I'd 
> say the K7 curves were designed for use with
> Gray-Matte.icc. I should 
> mention though that this is with Innova Photo Smooth
> Cotton and using a 
> hardware calibrated monitor. With this work flow,
> the prints look very 
> much like my monitor - no soft proofing needed. I've
> never thought the 
> K7's lacked any punch compared to any other inks
> I've ever used or seen, 
> including Piezos, MIS, UC's or K3's.
> The other option you might try is to have a proper
> profile built for 
> you, though without a hardware calibrated monitor,
> all bets are off.
> 
> Will
> 
>  
> 
> >From: Michael Vendrell <mjvendrell2@...>
> >Subject: Piezo NK7  vs  R220 UTR2 W  vs  C86 EZW
> >
> >ALL: I just loaded Piezo NK7's into my 2200 and
> >printed an old standby scanned negative with a full
> >range of tones including many dark grays.  Using
> the
> >QTR HPR 2880 NK7 curves and QTR the print was very
> >much lighter overall than same on 220 UTR2W with
> Paul
> >Roark's gamma 2.2 curve with the Epson driver; or
> C86
> >with EZW and Paul Roark's recommended settings in
> the
> >Epson driver.  All were sent with a gamma 2.2
> profile
> >embedded - psd's for the 220 and C86 and tiff for
> the
> >QTR.  The R220 and C86 prints are very similar
> except
> >the C86 is noticeably warmer - but the densities
> are
> >quite similar. In order to get the NK7 on the 2200
> to
> >match the other two in overall density, I had to
> place
> >the ink limit slider in QTR at +35 and the gamma
> >slider to +15.
> >
> >BTW, on HPR the NK7 is less warm yet (near neutral
> to
> >my eye) than the R220 with the UTR2Warm and much
> >cooler than the C86 with EZWarm.  For this image I
> >prefer the somewhat warm R220 Warm set  - but such
> >things are, of course, a matter of taste.
> >
> >The Piezo NK7 is indeed very smooth, although to my
> >eye it lacks a bit of "punch" relative to the other
> >two and the d-max is less even with the +35 ink
> limit
> >setting.
> >
> >Am I missing something, or do I have some setting
> >wrong in the QTR for the NK7's in the 2200, such
> that
> >I must almost max out the ink limits and density to
> >get a WYSIWYG with this system? The WYSIWYG with
> the
> >other two systems is quite close even though I have
> >only calibrated my monitor visually with the Adobe
> >gamma loader. Any thoughts and advice would be
> >appreciated.
> >
> >Michael Vendrell, MD.
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 


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In the QTR tutorial I have for the newer driver for the 7000 it
recommends using the matte grey as a profile instead of gg 2.2. as was
used for my 9600 with UC.

It works well for me.

What he is saying is that in the initial part of the Epson driver you
have to choose choose a print space. My source space is gg 2.2 and the
print space is matte grey. If you are in Mac Tiger OS you use let
photoshop manage color. THEN you send this file over to qtr to select
it as the final manager of this print space. Make sure you have the
latest version of QTR also.

john

Will, et al: I am just getting back to this after many
other "issues" having erupted - including the death of
my mother ( a blessing at this point but very sad for
me nevertheless) so as to interrupt this ... but I
don't see a QTR Gray-matte.icc anywhere on my system
(QTR Gui, XP, and PS CS2).  What am I missing? I'd
truly love to get these NK7's in my 2200 working
properly as they are incredibly smooth.

Thanks for any help any can give. BTW, I have since
paid the shareware fee for the QTR

Thanks again...Michael

--- Will <will@...> wrote:

> Michael,
> 
> You might try using QTR Gray-Matte.icc as your
> profile instead of Gray 
> Gamma 2.2 with the K7's ( profile>convert: GG 2.2 to
> Gray-Matte with 
> Black Point Compensation checked). I realize that
> the K7 Quick Start 
> Guide recommends GG2.2, but in my experience
> Gray-Matte works much 
> better, so much so that with my printer if I didn't
> know any better, I'd 
> say the K7 curves were designed for use with
> Gray-Matte.icc. I should 
> mention though that this is with Innova Photo Smooth
> Cotton and using a 
> hardware calibrated monitor. With this work flow,
> the prints look very 
> much like my monitor - no soft proofing needed. I've
> never thought the 
> K7's lacked any punch compared to any other inks
> I've ever used or seen, 
> including Piezos, MIS, UC's or K3's.
> The other option you might try is to have a proper
> profile built for 
> you, though without a hardware calibrated monitor,
> all bets are off.
> 
> Will
> 
>  
> 
> >From: Michael Vendrell <mjvendrell2@...>
> >Subject: Piezo NK7  vs  R220 UTR2 W  vs  C86 EZW
> >
> >ALL: I just loaded Piezo NK7's into my 2200 and
> >printed an old standby scanned negative with a full
> >range of tones including many dark grays.  Using
> the
> >QTR HPR 2880 NK7 curves and QTR the print was very
> >much lighter overall than same on 220 UTR2W with
> Paul
> >Roark's gamma 2.2 curve with the Epson driver; or
> C86
> >with EZW and Paul Roark's recommended settings in
> the
> >Epson driver.  All were sent with a gamma 2.2
> profile
> >embedded - psd's for the 220 and C86 and tiff for
> the
> >QTR.  The R220 and C86 prints are very similar
> except
> >the C86 is noticeably warmer - but the densities
> are
> >quite similar. In order to get the NK7 on the 2200
> to
> >match the other two in overall density, I had to
> place
> >the ink limit slider in QTR at +35 and the gamma
> >slider to +15.
> >
> >BTW, on HPR the NK7 is less warm yet (near neutral
> to
> >my eye) than the R220 with the UTR2Warm and much
> >cooler than the C86 with EZWarm.  For this image I
> >prefer the somewhat warm R220 Warm set  - but such
> >things are, of course, a matter of taste.
> >
> >The Piezo NK7 is indeed very smooth, although to my
> >eye it lacks a bit of "punch" relative to the other
> >two and the d-max is less even with the +35 ink
> limit
> >setting.
> >
> >Am I missing something, or do I have some setting
> >wrong in the QTR for the NK7's in the 2200, such
> that
> >I must almost max out the ink limits and density to
> >get a WYSIWYG with this system? The WYSIWYG with
> the
> >other two systems is quite close even though I have
> >only calibrated my monitor visually with the Adobe
> >gamma loader. Any thoughts and advice would be
> >appreciated.
> >
> >Michael Vendrell, MD.
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Hi Michael.Sorry to hear of your loss.

 In my system the gray-matt.icc files were in the folder Program
Files/QuadToneRip/icc.

 I found also that if I used GG1.8 as my grayscale space there was
little to no difference in screen appearance with the matt.icc
softproof off or on. I also saw no discernable difference in prints
between using 1.8 or converting to the graymatt.icc profile before
printing. I know every one recommends using GG2.2 but I don't because
it drops the lower dark tones down into the basement where they are
next to invisible to me.
 That has been true without and with hardware monitor profiles. Also
with both CRT and LCD screens.

Hope this helps.
Regards
Duane





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Vendrell
<mjvendrell2@...> wrote:

>
> Will, et al: I am just getting back to this after many
> other "issues" having erupted - including the death of
> my mother ( a blessing at this point but very sad for
> me nevertheless) so as to interrupt this ... but I
> don't see a QTR Gray-matte.icc anywhere on my system
> (QTR Gui, XP, and PS CS2).  What am I missing? I'd
> truly love to get these NK7's in my 2200 working
> properly as they are incredibly smooth.
> 
> Thanks for any help any can give. BTW, I have since
> paid the shareware fee for the QTR
> 
> Thanks again...Michael
> 
> --- Will <will@...> wrote:
>

Duane,  Thanks VERY much.  I found the profiles
exactly where you said they would be along with a
read-me WORD file from Roy that told me where to put
them and I have copied them to that spot.  Now, since
I'd rather be lucky than good any day ... wish me
luck!.. as I actually try to get the whole thing to
work...Michael

--- dlruckus <dlruckus@...> wrote:

> Hi Michael.Sorry to hear of your loss.
> 
>  In my system the gray-matt.icc files were in the
> folder Program
> Files/QuadToneRip/icc.
> 
>  I found also that if I used GG1.8 as my grayscale
> space there was
> little to no difference in screen appearance with
> the matt.icc
> softproof off or on. I also saw no discernable
> difference in prints
> between using 1.8 or converting to the graymatt.icc
> profile before
> printing. I know every one recommends using GG2.2
> but I don't because
> it drops the lower dark tones down into the basement
> where they are
> next to invisible to me.
>  That has been true without and with hardware
> monitor profiles. Also
> with both CRT and LCD screens.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> Regards
> Duane



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