Digital BW, The Print

Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of Crane's
new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white and color in
my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have been looking
for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no avail. Now my
searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this new
Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper could pass
for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white base color
and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant texture
that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air dried glossy silver gelatin paper
textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper in your hand, it also feels 
like a silver gelatin paper.

I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard three
black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400 using the
epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are superb with deep deep blacks 
with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water resistant
after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a print in
water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with a paper
towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my printing in
the future. Eleanor

Oh boy,

Eleanor, I assume you have primarily been workng with the Photo 
black for this in your machines?

I can't wait to return home tomorrow and work with this media. It 
sounds like we are in for a fun year. I do hope they are going to 
offer it in 44" rolls at decent prices. If so Crane will have 
refurbished their inkjet reputation with this one unique product.

I want to try this media with matte black,including the K7 neutral 
inkset. Has anyone tried that yet? This paper may be the last fnal 
blow to the silver darkroom and type c as well.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Brown" 
<elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>
> Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of 
Crane's
> new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white and 
color in
> my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have 
been looking
> for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no 
avail. Now my
> searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this 
new
> Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper 
could pass
> for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white 
base color
> and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant 
texture
> that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air dried 
glossy silver gelatin paper
> textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper 
in your hand, it also feels 
> like a silver gelatin paper.
> 
> I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard 
three
> black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400 
using the
> epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are superb 
with deep deep blacks 
> with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water 
resistant
> after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a 
print in
> water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with 
a paper
> towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my 
printing in
> the future. Eleanor
>

Eleanor-

This, of course, sounds like the panacea we've (all?) been waiting 
for.  So, I have a few questions:

The paper is intended for PK?
Is the surface (coating) a thin RC type layer, or is it a coating?
The base is pure cotton?
Do you know the GSM?
You are using K3 inks in the 24 and 78?
Is there any data (or feelings) about the longevity of this 
paper/coating/ink combination?

Thanks,
Walt




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Brown" 
<elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>
> Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of 
Crane's
> new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white and 
color in
> my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have been 
looking
> for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no avail. 
Now my
> searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this 
new
> Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper 
could pass
> for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white base 
color
> and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant 
texture
> that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air dried 
glossy silver gelatin paper
> textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper in 
your hand, it also feels 
> like a silver gelatin paper.
> 
> I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard 
three
> black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400 
using the
> epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are superb 
with deep deep blacks 
> with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water 
resistant
> after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a 
print in
> water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with a 
paper
> towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my 
printing in
> the future. Eleanor
>

P.S. What paper-type settings are you using in the Epson driver?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" 
<odets@c...> wrote:
>
> Eleanor-
> 
> This, of course, sounds like the panacea we've (all?) been waiting 
> for.  So, I have a few questions:
> 
> The paper is intended for PK?
> Is the surface (coating) a thin RC type layer, or is it a coating?
> The base is pure cotton?
> Do you know the GSM?
> You are using K3 inks in the 24 and 78?
> Is there any data (or feelings) about the longevity of this 
> paper/coating/ink combination?
> 
> Thanks,
> Walt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor 
Brown" 
> <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
> >
> > Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of 
> Crane's
> > new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white 
and 
> color in
> > my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have 
been 
> looking
> > for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no 
avail. 
> Now my
> > searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this 
> new
> > Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper 
> could pass
> > for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white 
base 
> color
> > and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant 
> texture
> > that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air 
dried 
> glossy silver gelatin paper
> > textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper 
in 
> your hand, it also feels 
> > like a silver gelatin paper.
> > 
> > I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard 
> three
> > black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400 
> using the
> > epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are 
superb 
> with deep deep blacks 
> > with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> > paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water 
> resistant
> > after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a 
> print in
> > water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with 
a 

> paper
> > towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my 
> printing in
> > the future. Eleanor
> >
>

I'm sure that there are people who will be pleased to have this paper 
available. I wish them success and happiness. I doubt I'll be one of 
them though. I've had a good long taste of the freedom available outside 
the darkroom box; I'm not willingly going back.

<rant>
Inkjet is a new media, with it's own look and feel. Inkjet is clearly 
*not* wanna-be silver gelatin. The inkjet look and feel is superior to 
anything the darkroom has to offer, including the oft touted "air dried 
F-surface fiber print." Inkjet can print on a range of fabrics from 
canvas to silk. It can print to film that is smooth beyond the dreams of 
any darkroom paper. It can print to a huge range of fine art papers with 
textures unheard of even in the heyday of darkroom printing. It excels 
with matte surfaces. It excels with textured surfaces.

The desire to replicate the best of the darkroom prints is to me 
specious at best. If what one really wants is a darkroom print, the 
darkroom is still the best place to make it.
</rant>
--
Bruce Watson


Eleanor Brown wrote:

> Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of Crane's
> new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white and 
> color in
> my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have been 
> looking
> for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no avail. Now my
> searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this new
> Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper could pass
> for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white base color
> and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant texture
> that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air dried 
> glossy silver gelatin paper
> textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper in 
> your hand, it also feels
> like a silver gelatin paper.
>
> I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard three
> black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400 using the
> epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are superb 
> with deep deep blacks
> with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water resistant
> after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a print in
> water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with a paper
> towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my printing in
> the future. Eleanor

I agree with most of that Bruce, and have for a long time. I'm not 
interested in mimicing anything, but I do think the wet darkroom is 
dead. What this media is going to provide however, is a non-plastic 
glossy surface with a dmax that may possibly even excite you. I 
print on all those surfaces you mentioned every month and that is 
exactly why I am in this business in the first place, because I 
crave diversity and variety in surface and texture. I love the whole 
idea of the merger of photography/printmaking/digital alteration. 
What we have always needed for both color and black and white is a 
non rc glossy media that bypasses the cheap look of a type c print 
and leaves that to the dustbin of history, and apparently now we 
have it.

The next thing I want is a metallic media that has been tested for 
max permanece. 

Does anyone have a good source for mounting large inkjet prints on 
alluminum sheets? This is someting I have't done yet and I am just 
starting to reseach it. 

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... 
wrote:
>
> I'm sure that there are people who will be pleased to have this 
paper 
> available. I wish them success and happiness. I doubt I'll be one 
of 
> them though. I've had a good long taste of the freedom available 
outside 
> the darkroom box; I'm not willingly going back.
> 
> <rant>
> Inkjet is a new media, with it's own look and feel. Inkjet is 
clearly 
> *not* wanna-be silver gelatin. The inkjet look and feel is 
superior to 
> anything the darkroom has to offer, including the oft touted "air 
dried 
> F-surface fiber print." Inkjet can print on a range of fabrics 
from 
> canvas to silk. It can print to film that is smooth beyond the 
dreams of 
> any darkroom paper. It can print to a huge range of fine art 
papers with 
> textures unheard of even in the heyday of darkroom printing. It 
excels 
> with matte surfaces. It excels with textured surfaces.
> 
> The desire to replicate the best of the darkroom prints is to me 
> specious at best. If what one really wants is a darkroom print, 
the 
> darkroom is still the best place to make it.
> </rant>
> --
> Bruce Watson
> 
> 
> Eleanor Brown wrote:
> 
> > Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of 
Crane's
> > new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white 
and 
> > color in
> > my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have 
been 
> > looking
> > for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no 
avail. Now my
> > searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on 
this new
> > Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper 
could pass
> > for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white 
base color
> > and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant 
texture
> > that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air 
dried 
> > glossy silver gelatin paper
> > textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper 
in 
> > your hand, it also feels
> > like a silver gelatin paper.
> >
> > I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both 
standard three
> > black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400 
using the
> > epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are 
superb 
> > with deep deep blacks
> > with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> > paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water 
resistant
> > after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a 
print in
> > water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed 
with a paper
> > towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my 
printing in
> > the future. Eleanor
>

Walt i am using advanced black and white mode with photo black.  the surface is actually a 
coating enbedded in the fiber paper as far as I can tell.  I believe the base is pure cotton 
fiber, but don't quote me on that.  I am using K3 inks in my 2400 and tried both K3 and 
Phatte black Imageprint systems in my 7800.  With Phatte black, there is some bronzing 
when the paper is held obliquely, with K3 system there is no bronzing.  Don't know about 
longivity yet, but knowing Crane, I don't think they would make a paper with poor 
longivity--but as I said, don't know what it is yet.

In answer to the subsequent question...why not go back to the darkroom.  Actually I could 
as I have high end equipment I haven't been able to sell.  However there were major 
limitations in my darkroom work about just how much control I had over my negatives.  
With Photoshop, I have options I never dreamed possible in my darkroom.    When you 
couple those controls with a really wonderful paper with high D max and a soft white fiber 
base with a soft gloss surface, the possibilities are unparralleled.  Just my two cents.  
Eleanor
http://www.eleanorbrown.net
http://www.eleanorbrown.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" <odets@c...> wrote:

>
> P.S. What paper-type settings are you using in the Epson driver?
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" 
> <odets@c...> wrote:
> >
> > Eleanor-
> > 
> > This, of course, sounds like the panacea we've (all?) been waiting 
> > for.  So, I have a few questions:
> > 
> > The paper is intended for PK?
> > Is the surface (coating) a thin RC type layer, or is it a coating?
> > The base is pure cotton?
> > Do you know the GSM?
> > You are using K3 inks in the 24 and 78?
> > Is there any data (or feelings) about the longevity of this 
> > paper/coating/ink combination?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Walt
> > >
> >
>

Have you tried this paper with MK black UC ink?  Will it work with matte
black?
Thanks
David Aschkenas> 

-- 
David Aschkenas
915 N. Euclid Ave.
Pittsburgh, PA 15206
412-363-3458

www.daschkenasphoto.com

Photo black only.  eleanor  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, David Aschkenas 
<Daschkenas@e...> wrote:

>
> Have you tried this paper with MK black UC ink?  Will it work with matte
> black?
> Thanks
> David Aschkenas> 
> 
> -- 
> David Aschkenas
> 915 N. Euclid Ave.
> Pittsburgh, PA 15206
> 412-363-3458
> 
> www.daschkenasphoto.com
>

>
>
> I want to try this media with matte black,including the K7 neutral
> inkset. Has anyone tried that yet? This paper may be the last fnal
> blow to the silver darkroom and type c as well.
>
> John
>

John,

I have some here to try with both the MIS color inks with the Eboni  
black and with a set of K6. I'm still having some problems with one  
color of the K6, but have managed to improve the output enough to  
where I remain hopeful that I can finally get it working.  I only  
have a 5-sheet letter-sized sampler, so I've requested a roll.  I  
need to linearize and profile to really test the paper, and I like to  
print my targets bigger than letter just for the ergonomics of patch  
reading, but I'm eager to try this paper, too. I don't know how  
similar this paper is to what I got with Lyson's Darkroom gloss with  
Fotonics, but if it's similar in look without the problems, and with  
pigment inks, it could be a whole new world.  Pigs didn't work at all  
at all on Darkroom Gloss, and David Williams at Crane says that this  
paper is intended for pigs, so...

James Irelan

What dMax?

> From: Stephen M Martin <steve@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:03:52 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> 
> I have been sent some samples as well and thought I would toss in a couple
> answers.
> 1. It is 100% cotton
> 2. It works with PK. I have printed BW and color with it and like the
> results a lot.
> 3. I use Image Print and they already have profiles for it.
> 4. GSM is 300
> 5. There ARE no data (the word is plural), of which I'm aware, about its
> longevity. It claims to be archival and, from the feel and look of it, I bet
> it is but I'm no expert. I just print on the stuff.
>  I bet it is but I don't pretend any great expert so I defer to others on
> this one.
> 6. Can't answer the ink question as I use the old 4000.

Bruce--

My interest is not in mimicing anything, but in an excellent tonal 
scale (including unimpeachable dmax) on a paper that does feel like 
plastic wrap or a dental dam in the hand. Period.  

All the discussion of paper on this forum (including the perpetual 
dmax 1.65 vs. 1.74, the spray coatings, the finger nail test. etc. 
etc.) suggests that many of us have "paper troubles."  Personally, I 
find all of the current papers a compromise, and a significant one, 
in one way or another.  Many of us have trouble acknowledging that.  
Improvements in these papers is clearly the next step.

I would add that I come from a photojournalistic/documentary 
background where the "art print" look is less appropriate. I have 
seen some beautiful landscapes on matte papers, but a lot of this is 
about the print per se.  I am less interested in the print than in 
the image. 

Walt


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... 
wrote:
>
> I'm sure that there are people who will be pleased to have this 
paper 
> available. I wish them success and happiness. I doubt I'll be one 
of 
> them though. I've had a good long taste of the freedom available 
outside 
> the darkroom box; I'm not willingly going back.
> 
> <rant>
> Inkjet is a new media, with it's own look and feel. Inkjet is 
clearly 
> *not* wanna-be silver gelatin. The inkjet look and feel is superior 
to 
> anything the darkroom has to offer, including the oft touted "air 
dried 
> F-surface fiber print." Inkjet can print on a range of fabrics from 
> canvas to silk. It can print to film that is smooth beyond the 
dreams of 
> any darkroom paper. It can print to a huge range of fine art papers 
with 
> textures unheard of even in the heyday of darkroom printing. It 
excels 
> with matte surfaces. It excels with textured surfaces.
> 
> The desire to replicate the best of the darkroom prints is to me 
> specious at best. If what one really wants is a darkroom print, the 
> darkroom is still the best place to make it.
> </rant>
> --
> Bruce Watson
> 
> 
> Eleanor Brown wrote:
> 
> > Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of 
Crane's
> > new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white 
and 
> > color in
> > my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have 
been 
> > looking
> > for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no 
avail. Now my
> > searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this 
new
> > Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper 
could pass
> > for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white 
base color
> > and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant 
texture
> > that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air 
dried 
> > glossy silver gelatin paper
> > textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper 
in 
> > your hand, it also feels
> > like a silver gelatin paper.
> >
> > I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard 
three
> > black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400 
using the
> > epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are 
superb 
> > with deep deep blacks
> > with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> > paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water 
resistant
> > after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a 
print in
> > water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with 
a paper
> > towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my 
printing in
> > the future. Eleanor
>




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... 
wrote:
>
> I'm sure that there are people who will be pleased to have this 
paper 
> available. I wish them success and happiness. I doubt I'll be one 
of 
> them though. I've had a good long taste of the freedom available 
outside 
> the darkroom box; I'm not willingly going back.
> 
> <rant>
> Inkjet is a new media, with it's own look and feel. Inkjet is 
clearly 
> *not* wanna-be silver gelatin. The inkjet look and feel is superior 
to 
> anything the darkroom has to offer, including the oft touted "air 
dried 
> F-surface fiber print." Inkjet can print on a range of fabrics from 
> canvas to silk. It can print to film that is smooth beyond the 
dreams of 
> any darkroom paper. It can print to a huge range of fine art papers 
with 
> textures unheard of even in the heyday of darkroom printing. It 
excels 
> with matte surfaces. It excels with textured surfaces.
> 
> The desire to replicate the best of the darkroom prints is to me 
> specious at best. If what one really wants is a darkroom print, the 
> darkroom is still the best place to make it.
> </rant>
> --
> Bruce Watson
> 
> 
> Eleanor Brown wrote:
> 
> > Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of 
Crane's
> > new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white 
and 
> > color in
> > my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have 
been 
> > looking
> > for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no 
avail. Now my
> > searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this 
new
> > Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper 
could pass
> > for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white 
base color
> > and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant 
texture
> > that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air 
dried 
> > glossy silver gelatin paper
> > textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper 
in 
> > your hand, it also feels
> > like a silver gelatin paper.
> >
> > I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard 
three
> > black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400 
using the
> > epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are 
superb 
> > with deep deep blacks
> > with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> > paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water 
resistant
> > after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a 
print in
> > water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with 
a paper
> > towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my 
printing in
> > the future. Eleanor
>

It's a very nice paper, though not quite 100% there yet, so I hope 
Crane will tweak it in response to the beta testing.

In some ways it is a bit similar to air dried fibre based paper - but 
not really/not quite. In fact this is one of the first papers that 
might show how ink printing can go forward on it's own instead of 
either trying to copy darkroom prints (which is what the RC papers 
do) or trying to "make do" with what we can ( which is what the 
art/rag papers really do).

The paper has a really nice look and feel to it and it is almost 
unique. Best of all it has very nice deep blacks - but as 
importantly, extremely good rich shadow detail - more than any rag 
paper of used of the dozens and dozens I've tried over the last 8-10 
years. It also has good highlights and mid tones and is very crisp. 
It gives a very neutral B&W print, but the most impressive think is 
the sense of depth in the prints - it doesn't feel like it sits on 
the surface like the RC prints do - and it obviously doesn't have 
the "flat" look of the rag papers. The pritns are rich and luscious

It is supposed to be based on Cranes excellent 100% rag base, so if 
it lives up to that in terms of longevity it will be a big plus. It 
seems a very tough paper too - resists scratching and moisture

Only downside was slight bronzing with the original UC PK (MK/Ebony 
was a no go - dry ink comes off on your fingers) using QTR. The 
bronzing (which is more like silvering really) was reduced pretty 
well with a spray of Print Guard - and even without that is nowhere 
near the horrible bronzing on Photo Rag Satin (?) or Premier Art's 
equivalent. I would imagine the new inks in the 2400/4800 etc will 
have no bronzing problem?

Potentially a really good paper - innovative and different. Hopefully 
it will live up to these first trials. It looks better than almost 
anything I've used before - and if the bronzing/silvering goes with 
the newer epson inks, it's a big step forward.

wwodets wrote:

> Bruce--
>
> My interest is not in mimicing anything, but in an excellent tonal
> scale (including unimpeachable dmax) on a paper that does feel like
> plastic wrap or a dental dam in the hand. Period. 
>
> All the discussion of paper on this forum (including the perpetual
> dmax 1.65 vs. 1.74, the spray coatings, the finger nail test. etc.
> etc.) suggests that many of us have "paper troubles."  Personally, I
> find all of the current papers a compromise, and a significant one,
> in one way or another.  Many of us have trouble acknowledging that. 
> Improvements in these papers is clearly the next step.
>
> Walt

I disagree. It's not just the papers. The papers are fine; what 
improvement we get is going to be incremental.

It's the inks that are failing us. I don't think we'll ever see the day 
when a matte paper, any matte paper, can give us a 2.0+ Dmax with the 
current crop of pigment inks. Not UltraChromes, not K3, not MIS, not 
PiezoTones.

I've got some prints sitting on my desk - matte substrates, with a 
reported 2.2+ Dmax. They are at least as dark as the blacks on my old 
selenium toned air-dried F-surface fiber prints from yesteryear viewed 
side-by-side under Solux lights. Unimpeachable Dmax, if you will.

The problem is that they are experimental inks. Not nearly as fragile a 
surface as current pigments give, no metamerism from 3000K halogens to 
crappy fluorescents, to 4700K Solux, to direct sunlight. It's clearly 
doable. The questions are retail cost, longevity, time to market, and 
the desire to bring a new ink to a market that clings to OEM inks and 
papers like there's no tomorrow. I'm not sure it's worth the hassle 
myself. But I encourage as I can.
--
Bruce Watson

Thanks for that report Mark. This is pretty much what I've heard 
elsewhere. Somehow I think Crane knew about the direction Epson was 
going with K3 (just my theory)and beat everybody to the punch. As 
for the very slight bronzing with K2 UC, hell, that's what they make 
Premier Art Spray  for and that will only increase you dmax. I'm 
glad an American company has finally produced a product worth 
buying. It gives me some hope.

John



--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mark_gatehouse" 
<mark_gatehouse@y...> wrote:
>
> It's a very nice paper, though not quite 100% there yet, so I hope 
> Crane will tweak it in response to the beta testing.
> 
> In some ways it is a bit similar to air dried fibre based paper - 
but 
> not really/not quite. In fact this is one of the first papers that 
> might show how ink printing can go forward on it's own instead of 
> either trying to copy darkroom prints (which is what the RC papers 
> do) or trying to "make do" with what we can ( which is what the 
> art/rag papers really do).
> 
> The paper has a really nice look and feel to it and it is almost 
> unique. Best of all it has very nice deep blacks - but as 
> importantly, extremely good rich shadow detail - more than any rag 
> paper of used of the dozens and dozens I've tried over the last 8-
10 
> years. It also has good highlights and mid tones and is very 
crisp. 
> It gives a very neutral B&W print, but the most impressive think 
is 
> the sense of depth in the prints - it doesn't feel like it sits on 
> the surface like the RC prints do - and it obviously doesn't have 
> the "flat" look of the rag papers. The pritns are rich and luscious
> 
> It is supposed to be based on Cranes excellent 100% rag base, so 
if 
> it lives up to that in terms of longevity it will be a big plus. 
It 
> seems a very tough paper too - resists scratching and moisture
> 
> Only downside was slight bronzing with the original UC PK 
(MK/Ebony 
> was a no go - dry ink comes off on your fingers) using QTR. The 
> bronzing (which is more like silvering really) was reduced pretty 
> well with a spray of Print Guard - and even without that is 
nowhere 
> near the horrible bronzing on Photo Rag Satin (?) or Premier Art's 
> equivalent. I would imagine the new inks in the 2400/4800 etc will 
> have no bronzing problem?
> 
> Potentially a really good paper - innovative and different. 
Hopefully 
> it will live up to these first trials. It looks better than almost 
> anything I've used before - and if the bronzing/silvering goes 
with 
> the newer epson inks, it's a big step forward.
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
...
> I've got some prints sitting on my desk - matte substrates, with a 
> reported 2.2+ Dmax...

but Bruce, the question is, do you love them?

I agree by the way.
Tyler

John, I've read your opinions about spraying before and respect them.
However, in my opinion, an inkjet paper that REQUIRES spraying to
function will not sell well in the marketplace, may even fail.
Arguably, the K3s may be conquering the world and if it works easily
with them they are home free. So far, too few reports.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:

>
> Thanks for that report Mark. This is pretty much what I've heard 
> elsewhere. Somehow I think Crane knew about the direction Epson was 
> going with K3 (just my theory)and beat everybody to the punch. As 
> for the very slight bronzing with K2 UC, hell, that's what they make 
> Premier Art Spray  for and that will only increase you dmax. I'm 
> glad an American company has finally produced a product worth 
> buying. It gives me some hope.
> 
> John

In my humble opinion, here's my take on the paper at this stage. It proves that you can 
achieve the same "Depth" with an inkjet print as you can with a traditional air dried fiber 
glossy print. This is coming from an ABSOLUTE STICKLER when it comes to that sort of thing. 
You feel the image is "in" and not "on" the paper just like a traditional fiber print. There's a 
wonderful glow and 3-D quality to it. I get excited thinking of what the near future is certain 
to bring. I believe we'll see papers that will not only match the quality of a traditional print 
but exceed it! However, at this stage, it's aaalllmmmosssttt there. This original paper has a 
sort of cream base but I'm sure it will eventually be delivered in a variety of flavors. I want to 
qualify the fact that I have no profiles for the paper. That said, I chose the premium luster 
paper type with the epson driver on the 4800 and got some purplish/mageta kind of cast 
when viewed in daylight at an angle. The IP profiles might very well eliminate that. Also, the 
paper has a sort of luster sparkle when viewed at an angle. However when adjusted slightly 
back to straight on you can see a nice texture to the paper. I wish the luster sparkle wasn't 
there. Being that I only made a few prints, I can't go into more detail than that. I will say that 
viewing straight on the paper is a "Dream Come True. So, in closing, it's proof the future of 
digital printing is a bright one indeed.

Using this paper with the K3 inks, as i mentioned in the my initial post about this, there is 
no bronzing.  BUT you must use all three shades of black.   If you use the Imageprint 
Phatte black system, or the epson 4000 or any printer with only two blacks, you get 
bronzing.  (can always be sprayed with Premier Art spray) 

Using the epson driver, advanced black and white mode, on my 7800 or my 2400, the 
prints are really wonderful too.  They don't "sit" on top of the paper and do have a real 
"depth" to them, as my selenium toned darkroom prints did.  The Crane silver rag paper 
tone is very nice--not too yellow but just a soft white.  I've been making some prints 
pushing the shadow areas waaay down deep and I still get good shadow detial separation.  
Eleanor



-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bobbysandstrom" 
<bobbysandstrom@s...> wrote:
>
> In my humble opinion, here's my take on the paper at this stage. It proves that you can 
> achieve the same "Depth" with an inkjet print as you can with a traditional air dried fiber 
> glossy print. This is coming from an ABSOLUTE STICKLER when it comes to that sort of 
thing. 
> You feel the image is "in" and not "on" the paper just like a traditional fiber print. There's 
a 
> wonderful glow and 3-D quality to it. I get excited thinking of what the near future is 
certain 
> to bring. I believe we'll see papers that will not only match the quality of a traditional 
print 
> but exceed it! However, at this stage, it's aaalllmmmosssttt there. This original paper 
has a 
> sort of cream base but I'm sure it will eventually be delivered in a variety of flavors. I 
want to 
> qualify the fact that I have no profiles for the paper. That said, I chose the premium 
luster 
> paper type with the epson driver on the 4800 and got some purplish/mageta kind of 
cast 
> when viewed in daylight at an angle. The IP profiles might very well eliminate that. Also, 
the 
> paper has a sort of luster sparkle when viewed at an angle. However when adjusted 
slightly 
> back to straight on you can see a nice texture to the paper. I wish the luster sparkle 
wasn't 
> there. Being that I only made a few prints, I can't go into more detail than that. I will say 
that 
> viewing straight on the paper is a "Dream Come True. So, in closing, it's proof the future 
of 
> digital printing is a bright one indeed.
>

have you tried the new epson ultra premium glossy paper? I wonder if  
you think that the ink sits on the top of it. To me, After a few  
images, I have zero gloss diferential, and I like sense of depth.  
Better than all of the other RC papers I have tried. It is possible  
that I just have not printed an image with blown highlights yet, but  
with the others, I always see some gloss diferential, even when the  
histogram looks good. When you see gloss dieferntial, it really gives  
the impression that the ink is just sitting on the paper. Of course,  
you have to turn it just so to see it, but this new epson paper so  
far has none, no matter how you turn it to the light. Maybe my mind  
will change later.....of course.
Doug M

On Jan 2, 2006, at 3:44 PM, mark_gatehouse wrote:

>  It also has good highlights and mid tones and is very crisp.
> It gives a very neutral B&W print, but the most impressive think is
> the sense of depth in the prints - it doesn't feel like it sits on
> the surface like the RC prints do - and it obviously doesn't have
> the "flat" look of the rag papers. The pritns are rich and luscious

Hey Tyler,

Hope you had a good Christmas.

I was only suggesting spraying the Crane Silver Rag when used with 
the K2 Ultrachromes on say a 9600. My feeling is that they were 
creatively created for the new inks instead, which if true really 
improves my opinion of Crane 1000%. Those won't need spraying at 
all. I have worked enough in offset output in years past to realize 
that Crane has been a very innovative quality paper company for a 
long time. But it took them quite a while to get out of the starting 
gate in the piezzo inkjet arena. There is no telling how long they 
have been working on this.

I agree that uv sprays are a stop gap measure for black and white or 
color imaging and I hope it is all temporary. However, in the little 
world that I live in, if they double the life of a print I'm going 
to make it a part of my consideration if not my daily workflow. I 
might even start charging more for the service.

Since you have used Piezzotone almost exclusively for the past few 
years you have not had to deal with as much tenderness that is 
present with Ultrachrome. The new K3 is an innovation in that 
department too, with a more durable surface. Epson has done their 
homework. K2 scratched much too easily on everything.

I have the strange feeling that when I set up a 9800 it will indeed 
be with a Photo black. What I really wish is that I could use a 
Photo Black also with the Cone neutral inks and try out this new 
gloss substrate with them, but I can't see how that would be 
possible at this point.

Did you receive your 9800 yet? I would love to hear your opinions of 
the monochrome output in comparison to what you have been doing.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
>
> John, I've read your opinions about spraying before and respect 
them.
> However, in my opinion, an inkjet paper that REQUIRES spraying to
> function will not sell well in the marketplace, may even fail.
> Arguably, the K3s may be conquering the world and if it works 
easily
> with them they are home free. So far, too few reports.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for that report Mark. This is pretty much what I've heard 
> > elsewhere. Somehow I think Crane knew about the direction Epson 
was 
> > going with K3 (just my theory)and beat everybody to the punch. 
As 
> > for the very slight bronzing with K2 UC, hell, that's what they 
make 

> > Premier Art Spray  for and that will only increase you dmax. I'm 
> > glad an American company has finally produced a product worth 
> > buying. It gives me some hope.
> > 
> > John
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
...
> I have the strange feeling that when I set up a 9800 it will indeed 
> be with a Photo black.

I'm guessing I'll be swapping back and forth. Have color clients that
want the art papers too.

...
> Did you receive your 9800 yet?
No and I'm ready for a straighjacket I'm so mad it's not here yet.
I've had to turn down some jobs.

> I would love to hear your opinions of 
> the monochrome output in comparison to what you have been doing.

Well, I've seen plenty of 4800 ABW output, and direct comparisons
between it and Ptone output with the same file and some lengths gone
to to try and match. The quads still have an edge, of course, on the
art papers. 
But I'll still do what I can to maximize the K3 output, then we'll
see. THere are a lot of things I intend to try in StudioPrint and with
the profiling. I'm kind of wondering why there have been no reports
here from 4800 users that are also QTR enthusiasts comparing output
between QTR and ABW with K3s.
Tyler

I think ease of use is a big factor in K3's favour.  I spent a considerable
amount of time doing the QTR 4800 curves but have subsequently been
exploring the Epson tint picker.  It's just so much easier.  Maybe that will
interest will wane and I'll turn back to QTR but I don't expect to do so
anytime soon...

> From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>


> I'm kind of wondering why there have been no reports
> here from 4800 users that are also QTR enthusiasts comparing output
> between QTR and ABW with K3s.

Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
> ...
> > I've got some prints sitting on my desk - matte substrates, with a
> > reported 2.2+ Dmax...
>
> but Bruce, the question is, do you love them?
>
> I agree by the way.
> Tyler

I want to love them. But if it's not on the market, what's to love?
--
Bruce Watson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen M Martin" 
<steve@s...> wrote:
>
> I only know it looks dark black where I think it ought to and not 
where it 
> shouldn't. How's that for scientific? 



Isn't that ultimately what it's about?

I can get dark black where I want it on a piece of toilet paper with a felt
pen.  

You can not deny that a key component of any paper evaluation is the dynamic
range it provides for you the user to deploy however you want.

> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:17:30 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen M Martin"
> <steve@s...> wrote:
>> 
>> I only know it looks dark black where I think it ought to and not
> where it 
>> shouldn't. How's that for scientific?
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that ultimately what it's about?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> I can get dark black where I want it on a piece of toilet paper with 
a felt
> pen.  
> 
> You can not deny that a key component of any paper evaluation is the 
dynamic
> range it provides for you the user to deploy however you want.
> 


Nope I can not deny that. But in the same thought, sometimes a paper 
that does not have a great dmax also looks good when images are printed 
onto it. No those papers are not my first choice, but there are worse 
things in this "industry" than a mediocre dmax. One of those would be 
shiny flecks in the coating (see other thread about those).

oh Bruce, if you look hard enough for the love, you will find it.
Find the love Bruce...


OK, well anyway...
I'm mostly interested in just your impression of the the prints, not
necessarily the product. I've suspect that our entire obsession with
dmax is not well founded. I have many prints here, silver too, and all
together the inkjets hang well with the silvers.
So I'm just wondering if the matte 2.2+ dmax prints you have there are
really suddenly visual heaven, compared to your piezo and MIS pigment
prints on matte paper. Dmax is a worthy goal and one of the critical
qualifications, but it's not everything.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s... wrote:
>
> Tyler Boley wrote:
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@s...
wrote:

> > ...
> > > I've got some prints sitting on my desk - matte substrates, with a
> > > reported 2.2+ Dmax...
> >
> > but Bruce, the question is, do you love them?
> >
> > I agree by the way.
> > Tyler
> 
> I want to love them. But if it's not on the market, what's to love?
> --
> Bruce Watson
>

I was interested in other K3 experiences if anyone has played with a
2400/x800 and a RIP for monochrome.
Ease of use has little interest for me.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> I think ease of use is a big factor in K3's favour.  I spent a
considerable
> amount of time doing the QTR 4800 curves but have subsequently been
> exploring the Epson tint picker.  It's just so much easier.  Maybe
that will

> interest will wane and I'll turn back to QTR but I don't expect to do so
> anytime soon...
> 
> 
> > From: Tyler Boley <tyler@t...>
> 
> 
> > I'm kind of wondering why there have been no reports
> > here from 4800 users that are also QTR enthusiasts comparing output
> > between QTR and ABW with K3s.
>

Agreed.  But a valid question asked, no?

For those who have been able to "test" this paper it would be nice to hear
some dMax figures. I'm interested to hear how Epson K2/K3 PK can do on
cotton with a state-of-art infused receptor.

> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>

> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> 
>> I can get dark black where I want it on a piece of toilet paper with
> a felt
>> pen.  
>> 
>> You can not deny that a key component of any paper evaluation is the
> dynamic
>> range it provides for you the user to deploy however you want.
>> 
> 
> 
> Nope I can not deny that. But in the same thought, sometimes a paper
> that does not have a great dmax also looks good when images are printed
> onto it. No those papers are not my first choice, but there are worse
> things in this "industry" than a mediocre dmax. One of those would be
> shiny flecks in the coating (see other thread about those).

Tyler-

I'm coming into this thread late but have experience with the 4800 and 
ABW, and both QTR and Bowhaus to drive a 2200 (K2 and Cone's K7) and 
4000 (k2). In fact, with my studio partner Scott King we've tunnled 
well down the rabbit hole on this one. We haven't used QTR or Bowhaus 
with the 4800, though; instead, we've been concentrating on authoring 
better print profiles with ColorBurst.

Rather than ramble on, I'd try to answer any specific questions you 
have (either on-list or off).

Happy New Year!

Bill Kennedy
Austin, Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:39:34 -0000
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing

   I was interested in other K3 experiences if anyone has played with a
2400/x800 and a RIP for monochrome.
Ease of use has little interest for me.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> I think ease of use is a big factor in K3's favour.  I spent a
considerable
> amount of time doing the QTR 4800 curves but have subsequently been
> exploring the Epson tint picker.  It's just so much easier.  Maybe
that will
> interest will wane and I'll turn back to QTR but I don't expect to do 
so
> anytime soon...
>
>
> > From: Tyler Boley <tyler@t...>
>
>
> > I'm kind of wondering why there have been no reports
> > here from 4800 users that are also QTR enthusiasts comparing output
> > between QTR and ABW with K3s.
>






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources 
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Yahoo! Groups Links

> 
> For those who have been able to "test" this paper it would be nice
to hear
> some dMax figures. I'm interested to hear how Epson K2/K3 PK can do on


I'm getting up to 2.39D for K3 ( 0.05D for paper). It's on a regular
print with ABW.

Pawel

List-

We have an *out-of-date* Linocolor Saphir Ultra flatbed scanner that is 
up for adoption. It was well cared for and is in excellent mechanical 
condition. We have the original LinoColor Lite (for Mac) install disk 
and the LinoColor manuals. This machine uses a SCSI attachment and will 
run fine under OS 9 but not OS X. It should also work under Windows 98, 
but we don't have an install disk for PC.

We'd be very happy to give the scanner, a SCSI cable, install disk, and 
manuals to anyone who wants to pay for packing and shipping. We'd 
really like to give the scanner to a school that could make good use of 
it.

Bill Kennedy
K2 Press
Austin, Texas

No local schools need it?

On Jan 3, 2006, at 1:38 PM, BKPhoto@... wrote:

>  We'd
> really like to give the scanner to a school that could make good  
> use of
> it.

Bruce,
>
> I'm sure that there are people who will be pleased to have this 
paper 
> available. I wish them success and happiness. 

Thanks, I am looking forward to it.

> 
> <rant>
> Inkjet is a new media, with it's own look and feel. Inkjet is 
clearly 
> *not* wanna-be silver gelatin. The inkjet look and feel is 
superior to 
> anything the darkroom has to offer, including the oft touted "air 
dried 
> F-surface fiber print." 
...
> 
> The desire to replicate the best of the darkroom prints is to me 
> specious at best. If what one really wants is a darkroom print, 
the 
> darkroom is still the best place to make it.

This oft touted remark is IMHO the specious one.

Prior to using the K3 inks on glossy/luster surfaces I would have 
agreed with you. I have been impressed with the "punch" that the K3 
inks provide (I assume this is the terrific dMax).

My impression is that if the PhotoRag is as good as is said, that it 
will indeed allow a *better* inkjet print of the same style as a 
silver gelatin print ... that is the inkjet print will best the 
traditional darkroom print ***at it's own game***.

Granted not every photograph is best printed with the F-surface ... 
witness the beauty of platinum/paladium prints. And indeed the 
carbon inkjet prints do a great job in this style (e.g. MIS/Eboni BO 
and UT/EZ or Jon Cone's)

That said, for certain prints DMax is very important, and 
traditional darkroom workers such as Adams had developed technical 
expertise in maximizing black. Workers such as Michael Smith working 
with Azo/Amidol have continued the technical standards achievable by 
silver-gelatin. One cannot summarize the tonality of such prints 
with the term "dMax" but high dMax is present in the darkest of 
areas in all such prints.

Let's not kid ourselves ... an inkjet print with a DMax in the 2.5-
2.6 range is a great technical achievement in digital photography 
(assuming the lifespan of the print is reasonable). In my mind, this 
is the straw that breaks the darkroom's back.

Jonathan

The SCSI/OS9 limitation is an issue for the local folks.

Bill K

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Savoia <mark@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:43:13 -0500
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Free scanner available

   No local schools need it?

On Jan 3, 2006, at 1:38 PM, BKPhoto@... wrote:

>  We'd
> really like to give the scanner to a school that could make good
> use of
> it.



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources 
as they
are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this 
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
keep them
short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile,
aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership 
without
notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed 
from the
membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines,
and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See
"Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO!
GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
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DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY 
DIRECT,
INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, 
INCLUDING BUT
NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR 
OTHER
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, 
THE
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Quick update on the scanner:

I was just contacted by an old friend from Houston who is running his 
LinoColor through a G3 with a SCSI card, using Vuescan through OS X 
Panther. He also said he may have a PC install disk.

Bill Kennedy
K2 Press
Austin, Texas

Dmax 2.3 with MIS K4 PK in an Epson 2400.

On Jan 3, 2006, at 12:46 PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Agreed.  But a valid question asked, no?
>
> For those who have been able to "test" this paper it would be nice  
> to hear
> some dMax figures. I'm interested to hear how Epson K2/K3 PK can do on
> cotton with a state-of-art infused receptor.
>
>
>> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
>
>> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
>> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>>>
>>> I can get dark black where I want it on a piece of toilet paper with
>> a felt
>>> pen.
>>>
>>> You can not deny that a key component of any paper evaluation is the
>> dynamic
>>> range it provides for you the user to deploy however you want.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Nope I can not deny that. But in the same thought, sometimes a paper
>> that does not have a great dmax also looks good when images are  
>> printed
>> onto it. No those papers are not my first choice, but there are worse
>> things in this "industry" than a mediocre dmax. One of those would be
>> shiny flecks in the coating (see other thread about those).

Very nice.  And this looks like a cotton paper?  I know it has a cotton base
but can you still see that it's cotton or does it look more RC-like?

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>

> 
> Dmax 2.3 with MIS K4 PK in an Epson 2400.
> 


>I'm getting up to 2.39D for K3 ( 0.05D for paper). It's on a regular
>print with ABW.

>Pawel

Tyler Boley wrote:

> I'm mostly interested in just your impression of the the prints, not
> necessarily the product. I've suspect that our entire obsession with
> dmax is not well founded. I have many prints here, silver too, and all
> together the inkjets hang well with the silvers.
> So I'm just wondering if the matte 2.2+ dmax prints you have there are
> really suddenly visual heaven, compared to your piezo and MIS pigment
> prints on matte paper. Dmax is a worthy goal and one of the critical
> qualifications, but it's not everything.
> Tyler

My impression is good. Very good. Vibrant color beyond what I've gotten 
from the UltraChromes (and I pushed them hard before I gave up), 
excellent shadow detail, excellent highlight detail, nice smooth 
transitions, excellent detail (acuity). The B&W I've seen was like the 
PiezoTones on steroids - smoother, more detailed, more neutral, 
excellent highlights and lots of shadow detail. In both color and B&W, 
the surface is very scuff and scratch resistant. One sample on fabric 
you can flex all around without any flaking, cracking, or any indication 
that you are abusing it.

But I don't have an apples-to-apples comparison. Substrates are 
different. Inks are of course different. Even a different RIP. So it's 
hard to say exactly. But it's enough to make me talk to people and urge 
them forward.

Which brings us back to Dmax. I think the obsession with Dmax probably 
is well founded. I think the obsession with replicating the darkroom 
look is not at all well founded.

What a good solid black does for us is to give us a longer tonal range 
to work with. A good dark black is like a good solid bass in music. It's 
a solid foundation for the image to rest on. It doesn't take much at all 
to work magic - just the shadows from the cracks in the rock showing a 
solid black in an otherwise high-key print. Darker shadows can make the 
print sing. They can let you show shadow detail a little farther into 
the shadow, which for some images can be the difference between a yawn 
and a second look. That whole "highlights grab the eyes but shadows tell 
the story" thing.

But the PiezoTones are really pretty good. They do an awfully lot that's 
right. Enough so that I'm not waiting for the next new ink to show up - 
I've got work to do and I'm moving forward with what I can buy today.
--
Bruce Watson

Man, I just got my sample pack of Silver Rag today when I returned from being out of town 
and I leave town again tomorrow, so I won't have a chance to test it out for another week.  
But these initial reports are making me want to squeeze in a half hour at the studio today 
between unpacking and re-packing to knock out a quick print on this paper on my 4800...

Have any of you compared Silver Rag directly to a print of the same image on Hahn. Photo 
Rag Satin using K3 inks?  For B&W, that's been my paper of choice for the last few months 
and it's very good (except for the overly textured surface).  I wasn't blown away by it for color 
-- I mean, it was good, but not radically better than what I'm already using for color (innova 
Smooth Cotton).  I'd be very interested to hear comparisons of Silver Rag and Photo Rag Satin 
for B&W work.

> Very nice.  And this looks like a cotton paper?  I know it has a 
cotton base
> but can you still see that it's cotton or does it look more RC-like?

Neither really - the closest is to air dried FB silver-gelatin paper - 
but it's not quite that either. But it's closer to that than the other 
two you mention. Like one of the FB papers with a slight texture. Not 
glossy, not quite semi-glossy. 

Pretty close to the old lamented Epson Professional Glossy in texture 
and base colour - a bit more texture though - maybe about the same 
warmth (but thta's from memory - why they eer dropped that paper is a 
mystery)

The base colour someone mentioned - slightly creamy - is close to some 
of the slightly warm FB papers as well (not quite as warm as say Forte 
Polywarmtone FB). More creamy warm than the "warm" warm of the some of 
the rag papers - if you see what I mean...

tim a

No, it doesn't look like cotton paper.  It has more sheen/gloss  
compared to Hahnemuhle PR Satin and Premier Luster Rag and is close  
to the soft gloss of an air dried silver FB print, but because the  
coating is thin and uneven there are annoying differential  
reflections when viewed under oblique lighting (this is also visible  
on an unprinted sheet).  So, sort of a GD problem, but in this case  
not because of the pigment inks but rather the thin paper coating  
that shows the paper texture.  This can be minimized by spraying or  
waxing the prints, but I don't want to have to deal with that.  If I  
look at the back side of a sheet of HPR, silver rag, and one of my  
Oriental Seagull silver FB prints they all look similar in terms of  
texture, but the printing surfaces are a different story.  They need  
to put a smoother and slightly thicker coating on the silver rag to  
eliminate the GD problem.  Other things I didn't like about this beta  
paper were:  Too stiff - need to uncurl before printing or will get  
head slap on edges in the 2400.  Paper color is too warm for my  
tastes (although non-OBA paper lovers will like the color) - I'm  
doing all of my comparisons to prints I made on Oriental Seagull air  
dried FB which has a bright white color (and still does after 30+  
years) with a SMOOTH soft gloss.  The silver rag paper base and  
coating are slightly acidic, based on results from my pH paper  
testing pen with the samples I received.

Carl

On Jan 3, 2006, at 2:39 PM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Very nice.  And this looks like a cotton paper?  I know it has a  
> cotton base
> but can you still see that it's cotton or does it look more RC-like?
>
>
>> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
>
>>
>> Dmax 2.3 with MIS K4 PK in an Epson 2400.
>>
>
>
>> I'm getting up to 2.39D for K3 ( 0.05D for paper). It's on a regular
>> print with ABW.
>
>> Pawel
>

Thanks.  I think I am getting the picture.  I was hoping it was more
"cotton" in nature, say like a smoother HPR.  I never did air dried FB
silver gelatine printing but I have a sample that a list member kindly sent
me (blank paper, processed, washed and dried).  While I like the more
"natural" nature of the texture/sheen vs today's "RC" inkjet papers it's
still far too glossy for me.  I think I'd prefer Epson Premium Semi-matte
any day with it's purer white and lower overall sheen.  (I don't care about
"feel" as I don't like handling printed images without cotton gloves but I
would like a slightly heavier gsm in EPSM/EPSG.)  I was hoping that we were
getting a PK-receptive matte cotton paper.  Still, sounds like it will help
satisfy a lot of people judging from the pleas I've heard here over the last
3 years.

> From: Tim Atherton <tim@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:27:36 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> 
> 
>> Very nice.  And this looks like a cotton paper?  I know it has a
> cotton base
>> but can you still see that it's cotton or does it look more RC-like?
> 
> Neither really - the closest is to air dried FB silver-gelatin paper -
> but it's not quite that either. But it's closer to that than the other
> two you mention. Like one of the FB papers with a slight texture. Not
> glossy, not quite semi-glossy.
> 
> Pretty close to the old lamented Epson Professional Glossy in texture
> and base colour - a bit more texture though - maybe about the same
> warmth (but thta's from memory - why they eer dropped that paper is a
> mystery)
> 
> The base colour someone mentioned - slightly creamy - is close to some
> of the slightly warm FB papers as well (not quite as warm as say Forte
> Polywarmtone FB). More creamy warm than the "warm" warm of the some of
> the rag papers - if you see what I mean...
> 
> tim a

I printed the same file in a side by side comparison between Museo silver rag and the 
epson professional glossy (still have a supply of this).  My Museo silver rag prints are much 
richer (shadow separation and detail really sing).  Also, the epson professional  glossy 
paper tended to buckle with heavy ink load.  the silver rag can take all the ink you throw at 
it.  I have been working with this crane paper for  4 days now and keep pushing my 
shadows lower and lower.  The ultimate is to push the shadows really deep in the print 
and then hold the print on the wall under directional spots.  amazing. eleanor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Atherton" <tim@K...> wrote:

>
> 
> > Very nice.  And this looks like a cotton paper?  I know it has a 
> cotton base
> > but can you still see that it's cotton or does it look more RC-like?
> 
> Neither really - the closest is to air dried FB silver-gelatin paper - 
> but it's not quite that either. But it's closer to that than the other 
> two you mention. Like one of the FB papers with a slight texture. Not 
> glossy, not quite semi-glossy. 
> 
> Pretty close to the old lamented Epson Professional Glossy in texture 
> and base colour - a bit more texture though - maybe about the same 
> warmth (but thta's from memory - why they eer dropped that paper is a 
> mystery)
> 
> The base colour someone mentioned - slightly creamy - is close to some 
> of the slightly warm FB papers as well (not quite as warm as say Forte 
> Polywarmtone FB). More creamy warm than the "warm" warm of the some of 
> the rag papers - if you see what I mean...
> 
> tim a
>

> ... it doesn't look like cotton paper.  It ... is close
> to the soft gloss of an air dried silver FB print,...

Part of me prefers my old air-dried "glossy" silver-print surface to a matte
inkjet paper, but I would not trade away the ability to tape hang prints as
opposed to dry mounting them.  I have yet to see a display print on a glossy
or semi-gloss surface that did not need dry mounting or something like that.

Do you think a large display print on this new paper could be displayed and
stay perfectly flat without dry mounting?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Very good concern Paul.  So far I have made small prints and these will stay flat.   This 
paper takes lots of ink and does so very well.   I voiced only one concern  with Crane and 
that was about the 300 gm. wt. of this new paper.  It is so great to be free of that whole 
dry mounting processs of darkroom days of past.  I have done some prints using the K3 
inks on Luster and Glossy papers and they have all had to be  dry (cold) mounted in some 
way or another...what a mess.  I also suggested to Crane that they make a 500 gms. wt. 
paper tho don't know if they will. Cost may be prohibitive.  I will cut off a large piece of 
this paper from my test roll and flatten it and see if st stays flat under a mat.  eleanor
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

>
> 
> 
> > ... it doesn't look like cotton paper.  It ... is close
> > to the soft gloss of an air dried silver FB print,...
> 
> Part of me prefers my old air-dried "glossy" silver-print surface to a matte
> inkjet paper, but I would not trade away the ability to tape hang prints as
> opposed to dry mounting them.  I have yet to see a display print on a glossy
> or semi-gloss surface that did not need dry mounting or something like that.
> 
> Do you think a large display print on this new paper could be displayed and
> stay perfectly flat without dry mounting?
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I wonder if any of the beta-testers would be willing to mail me a small test print on this 
paper.  I'd be happy to pay postal expenses, etc.  I'm very curious to get an idea of what an 
image on this paper looks like.

Ed

Paul Roark wrote:

>Part of me prefers my old air-dried "glossy" silver-print surface to a matte
>inkjet paper, but I would not trade away the ability to tape hang prints as
>opposed to dry mounting them.  
>
>  
>
I'd much rather dry mount prints than spray with a laquer.  To each his 
own!

> I'd much rather dry mount prints than spray with a laquer.  

I'd rather not have to do either.  That's why my standard for display is
still matte under glass (acrylic, actually).  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

john dean wrote:

>I think this absolute flatness is over rated. <snip>
>
>  
>
I disagree.  I've been at a number of exhibitions where the waviness of 
the prints bothered me a lot, especially with really big prints.  Like 
everyone else, I don't like having to drymount, but I do it because I 
prefer the look. It's nice that we can all like different things.

FYI have you tried Denglass from Denton Vacuum, New Jersey.  Quite
remarkable stuff.

(BTW I have not had any wrinkling issues with EPSG prints behind 8 ply mats
even without glazing - maybe time will tell.)

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
 
> 
> I'd rather not have to do either.  That's why my standard for display is
> still matte under glass (acrylic, actually).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
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>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> FYI have you tried Denglass from Denton Vacuum, New Jersey.  Quite
> remarkable stuff.
>

Alternatives are Tru-Vue Museum (glass) or Optium Museum (acrylic).
Expensive, but these anti-reflective (not the awful 'non-glare')
lights are far less distracting than uncoated glass or acrylic.

Best, 
Helen

Way off.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Savoia" <mark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing


Is this thread drifting off subject or is it me?

On Jan 5, 2006, at 6:52 AM, John Moody wrote:

> I guess flying a bankrupt airline with pissed off employees has some
> shortcomings?
> But, more importantly for us all, all checked baggage is x-ray
> screened
> since December 2002, so it's certain that the film has been x-rayed.
>
> Best regards,
> John Moody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> john dean
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 10:07 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
>
> I know. This is the 3rd time they have lost my baggage within two
> years and the second time they had to deliver to me the next day. They
> just deliverd my film a few minutes ago and I hope its not radiated.
> Now that has to cost them to do this. I started out being really mad,
> then I just felt sorry for them. Flying ain't what it used to be. And
> your idea about FedEXing the equipment is probably the smart thing to
> do. At least you know it's insured. I did shoot black and white film.
>
> John
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> >
> > That's really funny. Delta screwed up so much of my equipment and
> > baggage last annual report season it was an amazing mess. Once, like
> > you, when they couldn't find it they just said go in the back and
> look
> > around. Sure enough, it was back there in a corner. Surely they
> didn't
> > even look.
> > On one leg, when they "lost" some of our pieces, our high powered
> > client with a Delta "in" gave a call, they found it in two minutes
> > while he was on hold, put it in a car and had it to us across
> town in
> > 20 minutes.
> > For just anyone, it's lost.
> > People would not believe what those back baggage rooms look like.
> > Nothing labeled, no order of any kind.
> > Carry on won't even necessarily help any more, there's too little
> > room, they may have you check it anyway.
> > The whole travel thing has gotten nearly impossible, we're
> thinking of
> > fedexing our equipment ahead if at all possible.
> > Oh yeah, B&W printing...
> > Tyler
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the
> group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines"
> in the Files section:
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>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
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> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
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>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Carl,

Yesterday I was talking to a distributor of Crane papers who is well known to this forum.  
He commented on some of the concerns beta testers have seen with the coating on Silver 
Rag.  He said that a beta run is used to fine tune the mfg process, and that he felt the 
coater must have been fine tuning the air knifes that distribute the coating - thus some of 
the batch had a worse coating than others.  Sounds as though we shouldn't write off the 
coating quality until production paper is available.

just fyi.  Thanks for posting your test results.

Josh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> 
wrote:

>
> No, it doesn't look like cotton paper.  It has more sheen/gloss  
> compared to Hahnemuhle PR Satin and Premier Luster Rag and is close  
> to the soft gloss of an air dried silver FB print, but because the  
> coating is thin and uneven there are annoying differential  
> reflections when viewed under oblique lighting (this is also visible  
> on an unprinted sheet).  So, sort of a GD problem, but in this case  
> not because of the pigment inks but rather the thin paper coating  
> that shows the paper texture.  This can be minimized by spraying or  
> waxing the prints, but I don't want to have to deal with that.  If I  
> look at the back side of a sheet of HPR, silver rag, and one of my  
> Oriental Seagull silver FB prints they all look similar in terms of  
> texture, but the printing surfaces are a different story.  They need  
> to put a smoother and slightly thicker coating on the silver rag to  
> eliminate the GD problem.  Other things I didn't like about this beta  
> paper were:  Too stiff - need to uncurl before printing or will get  
> head slap on edges in the 2400.  Paper color is too warm for my  
> tastes (although non-OBA paper lovers will like the color) - I'm  
> doing all of my comparisons to prints I made on Oriental Seagull air  
> dried FB which has a bright white color (and still does after 30+  
> years) with a SMOOTH soft gloss.  The silver rag paper base and  
> coating are slightly acidic, based on results from my pH paper  
> testing pen with the samples I received.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Jan 3, 2006, at 2:39 PM, Steve Kale wrote:
> 
> > Very nice.  And this looks like a cotton paper?  I know it has a  
> > cotton base
> > but can you still see that it's cotton or does it look more RC-like?
> >
> >
> >> From: Carl Schofield <scho@m...>
> >
> >>
> >> Dmax 2.3 with MIS K4 PK in an Epson 2400.
> >>
> >
> >
> >> I'm getting up to 2.39D for K3 ( 0.05D for paper). It's on a regular
> >> print with ABW.
> >
> >> Pawel
> >
>

> Part of me prefers my old air-dried "glossy" silver-print 
> surface to a matte inkjet paper, but I would not trade away 
> the ability to tape hang prints as opposed to dry mounting 
> them.  I have yet to see a display print on a glossy or 
> semi-gloss surface that did not need dry mounting or 
> something like that.
> 
> Do you think a large display print on this new paper could be 
> displayed and stay perfectly flat without dry mounting?
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 

	
In the olden days, my friends would use tape or mounting corners for their
fiber prints, for "archival" reasons, although I dry mounted.  This made me
think of some of the liberating things of "going digital":  

1. No dry mounting with heavy papers.  Dry mounting was as much fun as
mowing the lawn.

2. No film developing.  See above re fun quotient.  

3. No cleaning up the darkroom.  Now I might wipe a little dust off the
monitor or clean up a ring on the desk from a brewski if I forgot to grab a
CD coaster.

4. No set film speed - just dial in as needed from 100 to 1600 or even more
if needed, watching the histogram.  (The film speeds were different with
film also, but that was because of the exposure or developer used)

5. No tripod most of the time.  Or at least a smaller tripod.  Flying now
with the tripod for the 8x10 camera is interesting.

6. No baggage with tripping the shutter.  With 4gb microdrives and Photo
Mechanic, just take some different views and edit in the PC.

7. The ability to reproduce a print easily.  I store the soft-proof
adjustments and it is just a matter of dropping one into the IP queue until
they change the paper on you.

8. The ability to make great color prints without blowing half a day in the
darkroom.  No filters, just the WhiBal cards.

9. Last, but certainly not least, no changing film holders in the hotel
bathroom when you really want to hit the bar with your friends.

A good time to be a photographer, no?

Regards,

Ken Carney
www.kencarney.com

That was funny and I relate to all of it. Just last night Delta lost
my gitzo tripod on a flight home. I did find it though in a pile of
baggage at the back of the airport amongst a bunch of musical
instruments and golf clubs. But I'm not giving up the 4x5 or the RZ
this year.  I can't afford one of those Phase One backs. Now those I
would keep with me on the plane.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney"
<kcarney1@c...> wrote:
>
> > Part of me prefers my old air-dried "glossy" silver-print 
> > surface to a matte inkjet paper, but I would not trade away 
> > the ability to tape hang prints as opposed to dry mounting 
> > them.  I have yet to see a display print on a glossy or 
> > semi-gloss surface that did not need dry mounting or 
> > something like that.
> > 
> > Do you think a large display print on this new paper could be 
> > displayed and stay perfectly flat without dry mounting?
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 	
> In the olden days, my friends would use tape or mounting corners for
their
> fiber prints, for "archival" reasons, although I dry mounted.  This
made me
> think of some of the liberating things of "going digital":  
> 
> 1. No dry mounting with heavy papers.  Dry mounting was as much fun as
> mowing the lawn.
> 
> 2. No film developing.  See above re fun quotient.  
> 
> 3. No cleaning up the darkroom.  Now I might wipe a little dust off the
> monitor or clean up a ring on the desk from a brewski if I forgot to
grab a
> CD coaster.
> 
> 4. No set film speed - just dial in as needed from 100 to 1600 or
even more
> if needed, watching the histogram.  (The film speeds were different with
> film also, but that was because of the exposure or developer used)
> 
> 5. No tripod most of the time.  Or at least a smaller tripod. 
Flying now
> with the tripod for the 8x10 camera is interesting.
> 
> 6. No baggage with tripping the shutter.  With 4gb microdrives and Photo
> Mechanic, just take some different views and edit in the PC.
> 
> 7. The ability to reproduce a print easily.  I store the soft-proof
> adjustments and it is just a matter of dropping one into the IP
queue until
> they change the paper on you.
> 
> 8. The ability to make great color prints without blowing half a day
in the

> darkroom.  No filters, just the WhiBal cards.
> 
> 9. Last, but certainly not least, no changing film holders in the hotel
> bathroom when you really want to hit the bar with your friends.
> 
> A good time to be a photographer, no?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ken Carney
> www.kencarney.com
>

That's really funny. Delta screwed up so much of my equipment and
baggage last annual report season it was an amazing mess. Once, like
you, when they couldn't find it they just said go in the back and look
around. Sure enough, it was back there in a corner. Surely they didn't
even look.
On one leg, when they "lost" some of our pieces, our high powered
client with a Delta "in" gave a call, they found it in two minutes
while he was on hold, put it in a car and had it to us across town in
20 minutes.
For just anyone, it's lost.
People would not believe what those back baggage rooms look like.
Nothing labeled, no order of any kind.
Carry on won't even necessarily help any more, there's too little
room, they may have you check it anyway.
The whole travel thing has gotten nearly impossible, we're thinking of
fedexing our equipment ahead if at all possible.
Oh yeah, B&W printing...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> That was funny and I relate to all of it. Just last night Delta lost
> my gitzo tripod on a flight home. I did find it though in a pile of
> baggage at the back of the airport amongst a bunch of musical
> instruments and golf clubs. But I'm not giving up the 4x5 or the RZ
> this year.  I can't afford one of those Phase One backs. Now those I
> would keep with me on the plane.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Carney"
> <kcarney1@c...> wrote:
> >
> > > Part of me prefers my old air-dried "glossy" silver-print 
> > > surface to a matte inkjet paper, but I would not trade away 
> > > the ability to tape hang prints as opposed to dry mounting 
> > > them.  I have yet to see a display print on a glossy or 
> > > semi-gloss surface that did not need dry mounting or 
> > > something like that.
> > > 
> > > Do you think a large display print on this new paper could be 
> > > displayed and stay perfectly flat without dry mounting?
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > 
> > 	
> > In the olden days, my friends would use tape or mounting corners for
> their
> > fiber prints, for "archival" reasons, although I dry mounted.  This
> made me
> > think of some of the liberating things of "going digital":  
> > 
> > 1. No dry mounting with heavy papers.  Dry mounting was as much fun as
> > mowing the lawn.
> > 
> > 2. No film developing.  See above re fun quotient.  
> > 
> > 3. No cleaning up the darkroom.  Now I might wipe a little dust
off the
> > monitor or clean up a ring on the desk from a brewski if I forgot to
> grab a
> > CD coaster.
> > 
> > 4. No set film speed - just dial in as needed from 100 to 1600 or
> even more
> > if needed, watching the histogram.  (The film speeds were
different with
> > film also, but that was because of the exposure or developer used)
> > 
> > 5. No tripod most of the time.  Or at least a smaller tripod. 
> Flying now
> > with the tripod for the 8x10 camera is interesting.
> > 
> > 6. No baggage with tripping the shutter.  With 4gb microdrives and
Photo
> > Mechanic, just take some different views and edit in the PC.
> > 
> > 7. The ability to reproduce a print easily.  I store the soft-proof
> > adjustments and it is just a matter of dropping one into the IP
> queue until
> > they change the paper on you.
> > 
> > 8. The ability to make great color prints without blowing half a day
> in the
> > darkroom.  No filters, just the WhiBal cards.
> > 
> > 9. Last, but certainly not least, no changing film holders in the
hotel

> > bathroom when you really want to hit the bar with your friends.
> > 
> > A good time to be a photographer, no?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Ken Carney
> > www.kencarney.com
> >
>

Josh,

Thanks for passing on the info.  I haven't written off Crane's Silver  
Rag yet, but it sure seems like QC is a big problem in the paper  
industry recently (see my posts and other's about similar problems  
with the Premier Art Luster Rag, and that was production material  -  
not beta).  If a company sends me a paper sample and asks for an  
evaluation then what they get back from me will be based on the  
product I receive - a critical review of that sample with  
recommendations for improvement.  If they knew that the product was  
deficient in some respect then they should have said so or not even  
sent out the samples.  If they have properly coated samples I'd be  
happy to take another look.

Carl

On Jan 4, 2006, at 3:47 PM, joshhackney wrote:

>
> Carl,
>
> Yesterday I was talking to a distributor of Crane papers who is  
> well known to this forum.
> He commented on some of the concerns beta testers have seen with  
> the coating on Silver
> Rag.  He said that a beta run is used to fine tune the mfg process,  
> and that he felt the
> coater must have been fine tuning the air knifes that distribute  
> the coating - thus some of
> the batch had a worse coating than others.  Sounds as though we  
> shouldn't write off the
> coating quality until production paper is available.
>
> just fyi.  Thanks for posting your test results.
>
> Josh
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield  
> <scho@m...>
> wrote:
>>
>> No, it doesn't look like cotton paper.  It has more sheen/gloss
>> compared to Hahnemuhle PR Satin and Premier Luster Rag and is close
>> to the soft gloss of an air dried silver FB print, but because the
>> coating is thin and uneven there are annoying differential
>> reflections when viewed under oblique lighting (this is also visible
>> on an unprinted sheet).  So, sort of a GD problem, but in this case
>> not because of the pigment inks but rather the thin paper coating
>> that shows the paper texture.  This can be minimized by spraying or
>> waxing the prints, but I don't want to have to deal with that.  If I
>> look at the back side of a sheet of HPR, silver rag, and one of my
>> Oriental Seagull silver FB prints they all look similar in terms of
>> texture, but the printing surfaces are a different story.  They need
>> to put a smoother and slightly thicker coating on the silver rag to
>> eliminate the GD problem.  Other things I didn't like about this beta
>> paper were:  Too stiff - need to uncurl before printing or will get
>> head slap on edges in the 2400.  Paper color is too warm for my
>> tastes (although non-OBA paper lovers will like the color) - I'm
>> doing all of my comparisons to prints I made on Oriental Seagull air
>> dried FB which has a bright white color (and still does after 30+
>> years) with a SMOOTH soft gloss.  The silver rag paper base and
>> coating are slightly acidic, based on results from my pH paper
>> testing pen with the samples I received.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> On Jan 3, 2006, at 2:39 PM, Steve Kale wrote:
>>
>>> Very nice.  And this looks like a cotton paper?  I know it has a
>>> cotton base
>>> but can you still see that it's cotton or does it look more RC-like?
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Carl Schofield <scho@m...>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dmax 2.3 with MIS K4 PK in an Epson 2400.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm getting up to 2.39D for K3 ( 0.05D for paper). It's on a  
>>>> regular
>>>> print with ABW.
>>>
>>>> Pawel
>>>

> not beta).  If a company sends me a paper sample and asks for an
> evaluation then what they get back from me will be based on the
> product I receive - a critical review of that sample with
> recommendations for improvement.  If they knew that the product was
> deficient in some respect then they should have said so or not even
> sent out the samples.

I assume you read the info that came with the beta testing samples that
indicate that the paper still has to undergo some final adjustments (and to
which the beta testing is presumably meant to contribute...)

To me that answers "they should have said so"

tim a

Hello Ken,

>A good time to be a photographer, no?

Yes!  All right on the money.  And don't forget carbon fiber tripods.
My field kit went from 26 lbs to 7 lbs.   I'm having more fun and am
more inspired and creative than ever before.  I truly feel liberated.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I know. This is the 3rd time they have lost my baggage within two
years and the second time they had to deliver to me the next day. They
just deliverd my film a few minutes ago and I hope its not radiated.
Now that has to cost them to do this. I started out being really mad,
then I just felt sorry for them. Flying ain't what it used to be. And
your idea about FedEXing the equipment is probably the smart thing to
do. At least you know it's insured. I did shoot black and white film.

John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:

>
> That's really funny. Delta screwed up so much of my equipment and
> baggage last annual report season it was an amazing mess. Once, like
> you, when they couldn't find it they just said go in the back and look
> around. Sure enough, it was back there in a corner. Surely they didn't
> even look.
> On one leg, when they "lost" some of our pieces, our high powered
> client with a Delta "in" gave a call, they found it in two minutes
> while he was on hold, put it in a car and had it to us across town in
> 20 minutes.
> For just anyone, it's lost.
> People would not believe what those back baggage rooms look like.
> Nothing labeled, no order of any kind.
> Carry on won't even necessarily help any more, there's too little
> room, they may have you check it anyway.
> The whole travel thing has gotten nearly impossible, we're thinking of
> fedexing our equipment ahead if at all possible.
> Oh yeah, B&W printing...
> Tyler
>

And don't forget carbon fiber tripods.
> My field kit went from 26 lbs to 7 lbs.

Yeah, no kidding.  Plus, my old Reis tripod kept breaking on me!

James

I guess flying a bankrupt airline with pissed off employees has some
shortcomings?
But, more importantly for us all, all checked baggage is x-ray screened
since December 2002, so it’s certain that the film has been x-rayed.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of john dean
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 10:07 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing

I know. This is the 3rd time they have lost my baggage within two
years and the second time they had to deliver to me the next day. They
just deliverd my film a few minutes ago and I hope its not radiated.
Now that has to cost them to do this. I started out being really mad,
then I just felt sorry for them. Flying ain't what it used to be. And
your idea about FedEXing the equipment is probably the smart thing to
do. At least you know it's insured. I did shoot black and white film.

John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:
>
> That's really funny. Delta screwed up so much of my equipment and
> baggage last annual report season it was an amazing mess. Once, like
> you, when they couldn't find it they just said go in the back and look
> around. Sure enough, it was back there in a corner. Surely they didn't
> even look.
> On one leg, when they "lost" some of our pieces, our high powered
> client with a Delta "in" gave a call, they found it in two minutes
> while he was on hold, put it in a car and had it to us across town in
> 20 minutes.
> For just anyone, it's lost.
> People would not believe what those back baggage rooms look like.
> Nothing labeled, no order of any kind.
> Carry on won't even necessarily help any more, there's too little
> room, they may have you check it anyway.
> The whole travel thing has gotten nearly impossible, we're thinking of
> fedexing our equipment ahead if at all possible.
> Oh yeah, B&W printing...
> Tyler
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is this thread drifting off subject or is it me?

On Jan 5, 2006, at 6:52 AM, John Moody wrote:

> I guess flying a bankrupt airline with pissed off employees has some
> shortcomings?
> But, more importantly for us all, all checked baggage is x-ray  
> screened
> since December 2002, so it�s certain that the film has been x-rayed.
>
> Best regards,
> John Moody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of  
> john dean
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 10:07 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
>
> I know. This is the 3rd time they have lost my baggage within two
> years and the second time they had to deliver to me the next day. They
> just deliverd my film a few minutes ago and I hope its not radiated.
> Now that has to cost them to do this. I started out being really mad,
> then I just felt sorry for them. Flying ain't what it used to be. And
> your idea about FedEXing the equipment is probably the smart thing to
> do. At least you know it's insured. I did shoot black and white film.
>
> John
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> >
> > That's really funny. Delta screwed up so much of my equipment and
> > baggage last annual report season it was an amazing mess. Once, like
> > you, when they couldn't find it they just said go in the back and  
> look
> > around. Sure enough, it was back there in a corner. Surely they  
> didn't
> > even look.
> > On one leg, when they "lost" some of our pieces, our high powered
> > client with a Delta "in" gave a call, they found it in two minutes
> > while he was on hold, put it in a car and had it to us across  
> town in
> > 20 minutes.
> > For just anyone, it's lost.
> > People would not believe what those back baggage rooms look like.
> > Nothing labeled, no order of any kind.
> > Carry on won't even necessarily help any more, there's too little
> > room, they may have you check it anyway.
> > The whole travel thing has gotten nearly impossible, we're  
> thinking of
> > fedexing our equipment ahead if at all possible.
> > Oh yeah, B&W printing...
> > Tyler
> >
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well lets' hope that a smoother coating is one of the "final  
adjustments".  I have my doubts based on what I've seen to date of  
the attempts to marry cotton rag with the silver FB surface look.   
Hahnemuhle, PremierArt, and now Crane (so far) all have products that  
are too thinly coated for me.  Reminds me of some of my early  
attempts at coating cotton rag prints with PUR using a mayer rod or  
foam roller.  Too much texture in a gloss surface is not very  
attractive (to me) because the uneven surface will produce  
distracting reflections - sort of like RC luster paper on steroids.

On Jan 4, 2006, at 9:16 PM, Timothy Atherton wrote:

>
>> not beta).  If a company sends me a paper sample and asks for an
>> evaluation then what they get back from me will be based on the
>> product I receive - a critical review of that sample with
>> recommendations for improvement.  If they knew that the product was
>> deficient in some respect then they should have said so or not even
>> sent out the samples.
>
> I assume you read the info that came with the beta testing samples  
> that
> indicate that the paper still has to undergo some final adjustments  
> (and to
> which the beta testing is presumably meant to contribute...)
>
> To me that answers "they should have said so"
>
> tim a

I sent in a test print on this paper using K3 inks and the Dmax measured out at 2.46 for 
those of you who are interested.  Apparently this agrees with the Dmax Crane has 
established with their own testing.  Eleanor

Eleanor,

I haven't had time to test mine yet. What is the coating looking like
to you now? Is it smooth and consistent? 

I just saw a print yesterday done on the Premier Art gloss rag from a
4800. I really hated that. Good gamut but it exhibited the strangest
texture I've seen in open smooth areas, and if it isn't perfectly flat
it produces horrible shiny glare and bronzing in the blacks. Crane has
got to be a lot better than that.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Brown"
<elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>
> I sent in a test print on this paper using K3 inks and the Dmax
measured out at 2.46 for 
> those of you who are interested.  Apparently this agrees with the
Dmax Crane has 
> established with their own testing.  Eleanor
>

John, I tried the PremierArt Luster Rag (the PremierArt Hot press is one of my favorite 
papers), but the Luster Rag was a disaster.  Horrible coating....totally weird looking, never 
seen anything like it.  I send my unopened box back!  about the coating on the Silver Rag, 
the samples I reciever were consistent in their coating except for isolated areas where 
there was some uneven gloss.  My guess is that this issue will be worked out before 
production paper is released.  I like the paper very much.  It is a long overdue addition to 
us prior darkroom junkies that have yearned for papers comparable to our old silver 
gelatin papers but made for inkjet printing. eleanor



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:

>
> Eleanor,
> 
> I haven't had time to test mine yet. What is the coating looking like
> to you now? Is it smooth and consistent? 
> 
> I just saw a print yesterday done on the Premier Art gloss rag from a
> 4800. I really hated that. Good gamut but it exhibited the strangest
> texture I've seen in open smooth areas, and if it isn't perfectly flat
> it produces horrible shiny glare and bronzing in the blacks. Crane has
> got to be a lot better than that.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Brown"
> <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
> >
> > I sent in a test print on this paper using K3 inks and the Dmax
> measured out at 2.46 for 
> > those of you who are interested.  Apparently this agrees with the
> Dmax Crane has 
> > established with their own testing.  Eleanor
> >
>

> 
> I just saw a print yesterday done on the Premier Art gloss rag from a
> 4800. I really hated that. Good gamut but it exhibited the strangest
> texture I've seen in open smooth areas, and if it isn't perfectly flat
> it produces horrible shiny glare and bronzing in the blacks. Crane has
> got to be a lot better than that.

You also have to remember that FB Silver Gelatin glossy/semi-glossy 
prints have glare/sheen as well. I held one of my Silver Rag test 
mprints next to such an FB print and although the textures are slightly 
different, it showed no more or less sheen than the FB paper as I 
turned them under the light.

As for bronzing - even with the older UC inks the bronzing is far less 
on Silver Rag than on the Premier Art gloss rag or the similar Photo 
Rag satin (?) paper. With the one sample with K3 inks I have seen I 
couldn't see any bronzing. Also, both the PhotoRag satin and the 
Permier Art paper do have very odd textures which seem to increase 
(almost like being embossed) once the ink goes on the paper - I found 
it quite unpleasent. The Crane Silver Rag doesn't appear to do this.

tim a

How does it look in high contrast area especially in the very light
(near white with very little to no ink was laid)? Is there any gloss
differential in those area?

Yes there is some gloss differential.  The surface texture and sheen do minimalize it, but it's 
there. eleanor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mambo445" <pchok@y...> wrote:

>
> How does it look in high contrast area especially in the very light
> (near white with very little to no ink was laid)? Is there any gloss
> differential in those area?
>

Let me say this:

In my limited testing of Silver Rag, it the best looking paper I've 
used.

This spring , I shot a portrait that I truely love (which says a lot 
because I hate everything I ever shoot. :>)  ) however, no matter how I 
printed it, it never looked "right". There's was something about the 
lighting that makes it very hard to print. I think it was due to the 
angle of the sun and the "color temp" at that particular time of day. I 
don't really know. It is just hard to get a good print made. I've tried 
many different versions of that file to get a good print.

I finally had an "acceptable" version that I was going to print on 
17X22" Epson  Premium Semimatte 250. I made a print that I liked. I 
matted and framed that print. I was my best attempt at printing that 
file.

When I recieved the Silver Rag paper to beta test, I decided to use 
that portrait file as a test since it was a difficult file to print.

I made a print on the Silver Rag and was really impressed.

When I put the Silver Rag next to the Semimatte version, I no longer 
like the Semimatte version that I had matted and framed.

I plan on using Silver Rag when it's released for all my "serious" and 
commissioned b&w work.

I'm sure if you try this paper when  it's released, you'll be very 
pleased.
(The base is a little "warm" though, but I love warm papers for 
portraits).

I still need to try it in my C86 with MIS inks and would love to try it 
in an R220 with MIS PK in BO mode.

Scott




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mambo445" 
<pchok@y...> wrote:

>
> How does it look in high contrast area especially in the very light
> (near white with very little to no ink was laid)? Is there any gloss
> differential in those area?
>

Could this be why the first guy to beta test this paper in a big way
and loved it said it more resembles the old dye transfer print surface
than exactly gelatin silver? I wondered what he meant by that. That
process exhibited a tiny bit of gloss diff. too. That certainly won't
stop me from using it. I have a little can of......perish the thought.

John





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Brown"
<elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>
> Yes there is some gloss differential.  The surface texture and sheen
do minimalize it, but it's 
> there. eleanor
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mambo445"
<pchok@y...> wrote:

> >
> > How does it look in high contrast area especially in the very light
> > (near white with very little to no ink was laid)? Is there any gloss
> > differential in those area?
> >
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Brown" 
<elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>
> I sent in a test print on this paper using K3 inks and the Dmax 
measured out at 2.46 for 
> those of you who are interested.  Apparently this agrees with the 
Dmax Crane has 
> established with their own testing.  Eleanor
>

Is that using Matt Black, I assume so.

William

> >
> > I sent in a test print on this paper using K3 inks and the Dmax 
> measured out at 2.46 for 
> > those of you who are interested.  Apparently this agrees with the 
> Dmax Crane has 
> > established with their own testing.  Eleanor
> >
> 
> Is that using Matt Black, I assume so.
>

Photo Black I think?

that's what the paper is designed for. I found MK rubs off somewhat

No.  this paper is photo black only.  I used the epson K3 photo black to get the 2.46. If you 
want to really get deep, put one light coat of premierart Print shield on it.  but the black in 
unsprayed print is plenty good.  eleanor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "hkcjrcrc" <hkcjrcrc@y...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Eleanor Brown" 
> <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
> >
> > I sent in a test print on this paper using K3 inks and the Dmax 
> measured out at 2.46 for 
> > those of you who are interested.  Apparently this agrees with the 
> Dmax Crane has 
> > established with their own testing.  Eleanor
> >
> 
> Is that using Matt Black, I assume so.
> 
> William
>

How is the bronzing with this paper with the 4000?  
Thanks,
SteveB 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> What dMax?
> 
> 
> > From: Stephen M Martin <steve@s...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:03:52 -0500
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> > 
> > I have been sent some samples as well and thought I would toss in 
a couple
> > answers.
> > 1. It is 100% cotton
> > 2. It works with PK. I have printed BW and color with it and like 
the
> > results a lot.
> > 3. I use Image Print and they already have profiles for it.
> > 4. GSM is 300
> > 5. There ARE no data (the word is plural), of which I'm aware, 
about its
> > longevity. It claims to be archival and, from the feel and look 
of it, I bet
> > it is but I'm no expert. I just print on the stuff.
> >  I bet it is but I don't pretend any great expert so I defer to 
others on

> > this one.
> > 6. Can't answer the ink question as I use the old 4000.
>

> How is the bronzing with this paper with the 4000?
> Thanks,
> SteveB

I would guess, with Epson UC inks, pretty much what I'm getting with the
2200

slight bronzing (maybe a touch too much) far better in daylight where it is
closer the "silvering" than under tungsten. Reduced by maybe 50% after
spraying with Printguard.

Better than any other gloss surfaced paper, but maybe not quite there -
close  though - in some circumstances I'd be happy with it.

I've brought it up with crane - don't know if they can do anything about it
...?

tim a

> How is the bronzing with this paper with the 4000?  
> Thanks,
> SteveB 

PS - that's using QTR and the Epson PK ink

Who is testing it with K3?




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy
Atherton" <tim@K...> wrote:

>
> > How is the bronzing with this paper with the 4000?  
> > Thanks,
> > SteveB 
> 
> PS - that's using QTR and the Epson PK ink
>

> 
> Who is testing it with K3?
> 

Eleanor Brown - check back on her posts

I was familiar with her posts and they were very favorable and
generally what I had hoped for. I thought someone else might have been
working with it too.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy
Atherton" <tim@K...> wrote:

>
> 
> > 
> > Who is testing it with K3?
> > 
> 
> Eleanor Brown - check back on her posts
>

I'm a beta user of Silver Rag. I don't use instruments for test 
though, just my eyes. :>)

What do want to know?

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> I was familiar with her posts and they were very favorable and
> generally what I had hoped for. I thought someone else might have 
been

> working with it too.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Timothy
> Atherton" <tim@K...> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > > 
> > > Who is testing it with K3?
> > > 
> > 
> > Eleanor Brown - check back on her posts
> >
>

I'm also testing it with K3 (and my K3/R800 mix). I'm currently
collaborating with the USPS in a rigorous durability test program (ie
I've sent a few postcards to my distant friends to see how they stand
up to sorting machines). 

Unlike everyone else here, I'm not overwhelmed by the surface. My
samples produce distracting specular reflections over too wide an
angle and will be difficult to light if displayed. One of my friends
commented "You printed this on Naugahyde?" Otherwise it's very nice paper.

Best,
Helen

> > 
> > Who is testing it with K3?
> > 
> 
> Eleanor Brown - check back on her posts
>

Re K3. Maybe I should have added that, not surprisingly, I'm getting
the same D-Max as Eleanor. Around 2.4, slightly lower than Epson
Premium Glossy Photo and Pictorico White Film, but not much lower. I'm
using IJC/OPM and a 2200, not ABW and an R2400. That way I can have
both MK and PK cartridges installed simultaneously.

Best,
Helen

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003" 
<helenbach@h...> wrote:

>  "You printed this on Naugahyde?" 

Oh those poor Naugas.

2200 is not K3




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003"
<helenbach@h...> wrote:

>
> Re K3. Maybe I should have added that, not surprisingly, I'm getting
> the same D-Max as Eleanor. Around 2.4, slightly lower than Epson
> Premium Glossy Photo and Pictorico White Film, but not much lower. I'm
> using IJC/OPM and a 2200, not ABW and an R2400. That way I can have
> both MK and PK cartridges installed simultaneously.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
>

> Unlike everyone else here, I'm not overwhelmed by the surface. My
> samples produce distracting specular reflections over too wide an
> angle and will be difficult to light if displayed. One of my friends
> commented "You printed this on Naugahyde?" Otherwise it's very nice 
paper.

I wonder how much these differences are due to different inks? slightly 
varying surfaces on the test run paper? Personal Preferences?

I think I mentioned, I compared a silver rag print to the same image 
printed on a fairly similarly surfaced silver-gelatin FB paper and 
found the level of glare/reflection at different angles to be virtually 
identical.

So I wonder what it is you are seeing here that is different?

tim a

I had exactly the same impression of the surface printed on my 2400  
with MIS K4 inks (ABW mode with icc).  I posted my less than  
enthusiastic review awhile ago.

Carl

On Jan 12, 2006, at 8:59 AM, helen_bach2003 wrote:

> I'm also testing it with K3 (and my K3/R800 mix). I'm currently
> collaborating with the USPS in a rigorous durability test program (ie
> I've sent a few postcards to my distant friends to see how they stand
> up to sorting machines).
>
> Unlike everyone else here, I'm not overwhelmed by the surface. My
> samples produce distracting specular reflections over too wide an
> angle and will be difficult to light if displayed. One of my friends
> commented "You printed this on Naugahyde?" Otherwise it's very nice  
> paper.
>
> Best,
> Helen
>
>>>
>>> Who is testing it with K3?
>>>
>>
>> Eleanor Brown - check back on her posts
>>

> > Re K3. Maybe I should have added that, not surprisingly, I'm getting
> > the same D-Max as Eleanor. Around 2.4, slightly lower than Epson
> > Premium Glossy Photo and Pictorico White Film, but not much lower. 
I'm
> > using IJC/OPM and a 2200, not ABW and an R2400. That way I can have
> > both MK and PK cartridges installed simultaneously.

Helen,

Can you explain again what inks you are using in which printer?

-Tim , I agree with you.

Once printed on, the Silver Rag looks like a silver gelatin print, 
IMO.

I can understand what Helen is referring to when she made that 
comment about "Naugahyde".

But, once Silver Rag is printed on, you have to hold the print at 
such a severe angle, that reflection is the biggest problem. You 
can't see that texture.

Hang it on a wall and look at it from all angles: it a non-issue for 
me.

I'm excited about this paper.

Now, for a canvas with the same qualities. :>)

Scott

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Atherton" 
<tim@K...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Unlike everyone else here, I'm not overwhelmed by the surface. My
> > samples produce distracting specular reflections over too wide an
> > angle and will be difficult to light if displayed. One of my 
friends
> > commented "You printed this on Naugahyde?" Otherwise it's very 
nice 
> paper.
> 
> I wonder how much these differences are due to different inks? 
slightly 
> varying surfaces on the test run paper? Personal Preferences?
> 
> I think I mentioned, I compared a silver rag print to the same 
image 
> printed on a fairly similarly surfaced silver-gelatin FB paper and 
> found the level of glare/reflection at different angles to be 
virtually 

> identical.
> 
> So I wonder what it is you are seeing here that is different?
> 
> tim a
>

That was not my experience.  I also did a side by side comparison of  
a silver FB print, air dried glossy with silver rag printed with MIS  
K4 and there was a significant difference in the reflective  
properties of the prints.  The FB print (Oriental seagull glossy) was  
very smooth with no specular reflections - just a very nice smooth,  
even soft gloss.  The Museo silver rag had annoying, specular  
reflections, more like RC luster and the surface imperfections were  
readily evident.  Yes, I'm aware it is beta paper so l'm hoping that  
they do improve the surface, but so far I've had no feedback from  
Crane indicating  that they do intend to modify the surface.

Carl

On Jan 12, 2006, at 11:01 AM, Tim Atherton wrote:

>
>> Unlike everyone else here, I'm not overwhelmed by the surface. My
>> samples produce distracting specular reflections over too wide an
>> angle and will be difficult to light if displayed. One of my friends
>> commented "You printed this on Naugahyde?" Otherwise it's very nice
> paper.
>
> I wonder how much these differences are due to different inks?  
> slightly
> varying surfaces on the test run paper? Personal Preferences?
>
> I think I mentioned, I compared a silver rag print to the same image
> printed on a fairly similarly surfaced silver-gelatin FB paper and
> found the level of glare/reflection at different angles to be  
> virtually
> identical.
>
> So I wonder what it is you are seeing here that is different?
>
> tim a

John,

At least someone is paying attention. I've mentioned this a few times 
in the past, with little response. I use K3 inks in a 2200: MK, 
K3/PK, K3/LK, K3/LLK, K3/LC, R800/blue, and swap between R800/red and 
Krystal Topkote. I get the MK and the K3 inks from 110 ml carts.

It works for me.

Best,
Helen

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> 2200 is not K3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003"
> <helenbach@h...> wrote:
> >
> > Re K3. Maybe I should have added that, not surprisingly, I'm 
getting
> > the same D-Max as Eleanor. Around 2.4, slightly lower than Epson
> > Premium Glossy Photo and Pictorico White Film, but not much 
lower. I'm
> > using IJC/OPM and a 2200, not ABW and an R2400. That way I can 
have

> > both MK and PK cartridges installed simultaneously.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Helen
> >
>

Tim,

In one of my 2200's I'm using K3 inks with R800 red and blue as toners -
 I've given the full list in my reply to John. I use IJC/OPM  - I used 
IJC/OPM with Septone inks, which I have now replaced with the K3 inks 
in that printer.

Best,
Helen

> > > Re K3. Maybe I should have added that, not surprisingly, I'm 
getting
> > > the same D-Max as Eleanor. Around 2.4, slightly lower than Epson
> > > Premium Glossy Photo and Pictorico White Film, but not much 
lower. 
> I'm
> > > using IJC/OPM and a 2200, not ABW and an R2400. That way I can 
have

> > > both MK and PK cartridges installed simultaneously.
> 
> Helen,
> 
> Can you explain again what inks you are using in which printer?
>

For those of you who might be interested in Silver Rag with MIS'
Ultratone inkset, I have had the opportunity to test this paper over
the past several weeks. I waited to post my impressions until I had
had enough time to thoroughly use the samples I was given.

The following is a summary of my experiences with Crane Silver Rag
using the MIS Ultratone inkset, PKN (not PK or Eboni), and an Epson 4000:

1) You will want to use photo black, not matte black with this paper.
Whether it's PK or PKN won't matter. With PKN you can expect a dmax of
2.4. I assume PK will be similar.

2) Other than the now discontinued (and completely non-archival) Epson
Professional Glossy Paper (aka Glossy Paper Photo Weight in rolls),
this paper's surface is the closest approximation to a glossy
fiber-based black and white darkroom paper that I have seen. (I really
like it for this reason). 

3) The surface is very durable and highly scratch resistant.

4) The base white is slightly on the yellow side, though not
excessively so. To give a comparison that may or may not be helpful,
the base white is essentially identical to the "bright white" version
of Westminster matboard that is sold by Light Impressions and that
many people seem to use. Also for comparison, it is not as white as
the Forte darkroom paper I formerly used. (The Forte paper, on the
other hand, is nowhere near as cool white as Epson Premium Semimatte
or Premium Luster, for example).

5) With the MIS Ultratones, there is effectively no bronzing or gloss
differential. Spraying with Print Shield (or equivalent) has no visual
effect. (Not requiring a spray alone makes me love this paper).

6) Some will be interested in how this paper compares to Hahnemuhle's
Photo Rag Satin and PremierArt's Luster Rag, as these all represent a
new class of printing paper. I found Silver Rag to be superior to
these other two papers. Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin suffers
tremendously from an inability to achieve a high enough dmax (it
topped out at 1.56 in my tests). There is no comparison in an image
printed on the Hahnemuhle paper and Silver Rag, especially if the
image has any significant area of deeper tones (such as shadow areas).
PremierArt's Luster Rag performed quite well, but the paper surface
was too rough for my tastes (it reminded me of canvas, though that's
certainly an exaggeration). In addition, the Luster Rag has an
exceedingly warm yellow base that I find disagreeable, but that is
personal preference. Some may like that.

7) Dry mounting is not a problem with Silver Rag.

8) Silver Rag handles ink in a way that I personally really like. One
aspect of digital printing that I've never seen mentioned anywhere is
that sharpening of an image is not only image size dependent but also
paper dependent. I've found in general that the typical semigloss
paper such as Epson Premium Semimatte or Premium Luster tends to
produce sharper images for a given level of sharpening in Photoshop
than when printed on a matte paper. This has to do with the dispersion
of the ink droplets upon hitting the paper. With a paper like Epson
Premium Semimatte, you can achieve very sharp images, but it can
sometimes come at the expense of overall smoothness. Silver Rag, on
the other hand, responds more like a matte paper than a typical
semigloss paper in how it holds the ink. While a given image may not
be quite as sharp on Silver Rag when compared to the same image on
Epson Premium Semimatte, it will be noticeably smoother (and plenty
sharp enough!). Personally, I much prefer the response of Silver Rag
to ink in this respect than Epson Premium Semimatte. To give an
example to help you imagine this effect (and where I saw it in real
life), look at the image on my home page at www.dirkhobman.com (also
image 2-4 in the image set section). When I print that image on Epson
Premium Semimatte (8.5x11 paper), there is a small but noticeable
amount of grain visible throughout the whole sky area. Without
changing anything, the same image printed on Silver Rag results in a
completely smooth sky with absolutely no visible grain.

9) Now, alas, the potentially bad news. Silver Rag will work
wonderfully with any image using the MIS Ultratones that is either
warm-toned or dead neutral. However, going anywhere in the cool
direction could be problematic, depending on your tastes. I print just
slightly cooler than neutral. Unfortunately, the slightly yellow base
of the paper responds with the cooler (blue) inks to create a slightly
green cast. It is not extreme, but it is noticeable nonetheless. I
expect it would become more noticeable with more cool toner. For
example, in printing the exact same image with curves designed to
create a slightly cool grayscale on both Epson Premium Semimatte and
Crane Silver Rag, you will find two very different resulting tones,
all due to differences in the paper base color. For me, this proves to
be too big of a problem to overcome. For you, it may not. As I said,
this will not be a problem with a warm-toned to neutral print. I also
expect that this won't be a problem with the new Epson full color
printers. I have never seen their black and white output, but if
reality matches theory, you could adjust for the tone using the full
color inks available (i.e. add more magenta, for example - something
you cannot do with the MIS Ultratones). To put this all in context, I
prefer Epson Premium Semimatte paper, but I would never print a
warm-toned or even neutral image on that paper. The base white is so
cool that you will always have a split toning effect in the highlights
with a warm-toned or neutral image, no matter how hard you try to
avoid it.

Take home message: A fantastic paper that will likely have very broad
appeal. The only ones who need be concerned are those shooting for a
cooler tone using the MIS Ultratone inkset, and even then you may not
find the results disagreeable.


Dirk Hobman
www.dirkhobman.com




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Brown"
<elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>
> Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of Crane's
> new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white and
color in
> my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have been
looking
> for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no avail.
Now my
> searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this new
> Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper could
pass
> for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white base
color
> and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant texture
> that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air dried
glossy silver gelatin paper
> textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper in
your hand, it also feels 
> like a silver gelatin paper.
> 
> I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard three
> black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400 using the
> epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are superb
with deep deep blacks 
> with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water
resistant
> after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a print in
> water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with a
paper
> towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my
printing in
> the future. Eleanor
>

Thanks, that was a very good review. I imagne K3 with QTR will give
you much better color tone control. But as you say a warmish base
isn't perfect for everything. However, I just did a series of neutral
prints on Hahnemuhle William Turner which also has a warmish-neutral
base color and I love the way they look. But like you I look for Crane
to offer variations on this base in the future. One step at a time for
a usable fiber glossy paper and I'm satisfied. The other companies
have failed in my humble opinion.

I'm going to try SR with the Cone K6 neutral inkset (as well as K2
this weekend) next week but I look for the bronzing to be major, we'll
see.

John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dirkhobman"
<dhobman@h...> wrote:
>
> For those of you who might be interested in Silver Rag with MIS'
> Ultratone inkset, I have had the opportunity to test this paper over
> the past several weeks. I waited to post my impressions until I had
> had enough time to thoroughly use the samples I was given.
> 
> The following is a summary of my experiences with Crane Silver Rag
> using the MIS Ultratone inkset, PKN (not PK or Eboni), and an Epson
4000:
> 
> 1) You will want to use photo black, not matte black with this paper.
> Whether it's PK or PKN won't matter. With PKN you can expect a dmax of
> 2.4. I assume PK will be similar.
> 
> 2) Other than the now discontinued (and completely non-archival) Epson
> Professional Glossy Paper (aka Glossy Paper Photo Weight in rolls),
> this paper's surface is the closest approximation to a glossy
> fiber-based black and white darkroom paper that I have seen. (I really
> like it for this reason). 
> 
> 3) The surface is very durable and highly scratch resistant.
> 
> 4) The base white is slightly on the yellow side, though not
> excessively so. To give a comparison that may or may not be helpful,
> the base white is essentially identical to the "bright white" version
> of Westminster matboard that is sold by Light Impressions and that
> many people seem to use. Also for comparison, it is not as white as
> the Forte darkroom paper I formerly used. (The Forte paper, on the
> other hand, is nowhere near as cool white as Epson Premium Semimatte
> or Premium Luster, for example).
> 
> 5) With the MIS Ultratones, there is effectively no bronzing or gloss
> differential. Spraying with Print Shield (or equivalent) has no visual
> effect. (Not requiring a spray alone makes me love this paper).
> 
> 6) Some will be interested in how this paper compares to Hahnemuhle's
> Photo Rag Satin and PremierArt's Luster Rag, as these all represent a
> new class of printing paper. I found Silver Rag to be superior to
> these other two papers. Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Satin suffers
> tremendously from an inability to achieve a high enough dmax (it
> topped out at 1.56 in my tests). There is no comparison in an image
> printed on the Hahnemuhle paper and Silver Rag, especially if the
> image has any significant area of deeper tones (such as shadow areas).
> PremierArt's Luster Rag performed quite well, but the paper surface
> was too rough for my tastes (it reminded me of canvas, though that's
> certainly an exaggeration). In addition, the Luster Rag has an
> exceedingly warm yellow base that I find disagreeable, but that is
> personal preference. Some may like that.
> 
> 7) Dry mounting is not a problem with Silver Rag.
> 
> 8) Silver Rag handles ink in a way that I personally really like. One
> aspect of digital printing that I've never seen mentioned anywhere is
> that sharpening of an image is not only image size dependent but also
> paper dependent. I've found in general that the typical semigloss
> paper such as Epson Premium Semimatte or Premium Luster tends to
> produce sharper images for a given level of sharpening in Photoshop
> than when printed on a matte paper. This has to do with the dispersion
> of the ink droplets upon hitting the paper. With a paper like Epson
> Premium Semimatte, you can achieve very sharp images, but it can
> sometimes come at the expense of overall smoothness. Silver Rag, on
> the other hand, responds more like a matte paper than a typical
> semigloss paper in how it holds the ink. While a given image may not
> be quite as sharp on Silver Rag when compared to the same image on
> Epson Premium Semimatte, it will be noticeably smoother (and plenty
> sharp enough!). Personally, I much prefer the response of Silver Rag
> to ink in this respect than Epson Premium Semimatte. To give an
> example to help you imagine this effect (and where I saw it in real
> life), look at the image on my home page at www.dirkhobman.com (also
> image 2-4 in the image set section). When I print that image on Epson
> Premium Semimatte (8.5x11 paper), there is a small but noticeable
> amount of grain visible throughout the whole sky area. Without
> changing anything, the same image printed on Silver Rag results in a
> completely smooth sky with absolutely no visible grain.
> 
> 9) Now, alas, the potentially bad news. Silver Rag will work
> wonderfully with any image using the MIS Ultratones that is either
> warm-toned or dead neutral. However, going anywhere in the cool
> direction could be problematic, depending on your tastes. I print just
> slightly cooler than neutral. Unfortunately, the slightly yellow base
> of the paper responds with the cooler (blue) inks to create a slightly
> green cast. It is not extreme, but it is noticeable nonetheless. I
> expect it would become more noticeable with more cool toner. For
> example, in printing the exact same image with curves designed to
> create a slightly cool grayscale on both Epson Premium Semimatte and
> Crane Silver Rag, you will find two very different resulting tones,
> all due to differences in the paper base color. For me, this proves to
> be too big of a problem to overcome. For you, it may not. As I said,
> this will not be a problem with a warm-toned to neutral print. I also
> expect that this won't be a problem with the new Epson full color
> printers. I have never seen their black and white output, but if
> reality matches theory, you could adjust for the tone using the full
> color inks available (i.e. add more magenta, for example - something
> you cannot do with the MIS Ultratones). To put this all in context, I
> prefer Epson Premium Semimatte paper, but I would never print a
> warm-toned or even neutral image on that paper. The base white is so
> cool that you will always have a split toning effect in the highlights
> with a warm-toned or neutral image, no matter how hard you try to
> avoid it.
> 
> Take home message: A fantastic paper that will likely have very broad
> appeal. The only ones who need be concerned are those shooting for a
> cooler tone using the MIS Ultratone inkset, and even then you may not
> find the results disagreeable.
> 
> 
> Dirk Hobman
> www.dirkhobman.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Brown"
> <elliebrown@a...> wrote:
> >
> > Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of
Crane's
> > new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white and
> color in
> > my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have been
> looking
> > for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no avail.
> Now my
> > searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this new
> > Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper could
> pass
> > for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white base
> color
> > and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant
texture
> > that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air dried
> glossy silver gelatin paper
> > textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper in
> your hand, it also feels 
> > like a silver gelatin paper.
> > 
> > I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard
three
> > black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400
using the
> > epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are superb
> with deep deep blacks 
> > with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> > paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water
> resistant
> > after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a
print in

> > water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with a
> paper
> > towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my
> printing in
> > the future. Eleanor
> >
>

"but so far I've had no feedback from
Crane indicating that they do intend to modify the surface."

They are interested in YOUR feedback. Don't think you're going to get 
feedback from them. That's not what beta testing is all about.

I've e-mailed my contact at Crane a week ago and I haven't heard 
anything from him.

However, he could be in  out of town. PMA is next month in Orlando, 
but who knows?

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
>
> That was not my experience.  I also did a side by side comparison 
of  
> a silver FB print, air dried glossy with silver rag printed with 
MIS  
> K4 and there was a significant difference in the reflective  
> properties of the prints.  The FB print (Oriental seagull glossy) 
was  
> very smooth with no specular reflections - just a very nice 
smooth,  
> even soft gloss.  The Museo silver rag had annoying, specular  
> reflections, more like RC luster and the surface imperfections 
were  
> readily evident.  Yes, I'm aware it is beta paper so l'm hoping 
that  
> they do improve the surface, but so far I've had no feedback from  
> Crane indicating  that they do intend to modify the surface.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Jan 12, 2006, at 11:01 AM, Tim Atherton wrote:
> 
> >
> >> Unlike everyone else here, I'm not overwhelmed by the surface. My
> >> samples produce distracting specular reflections over too wide an
> >> angle and will be difficult to light if displayed. One of my 
friends
> >> commented "You printed this on Naugahyde?" Otherwise it's very 
nice
> > paper.
> >
> > I wonder how much these differences are due to different inks?  
> > slightly
> > varying surfaces on the test run paper? Personal Preferences?
> >
> > I think I mentioned, I compared a silver rag print to the same 
image

> > printed on a fairly similarly surfaced silver-gelatin FB paper and
> > found the level of glare/reflection at different angles to be  
> > virtually
> > identical.
> >
> > So I wonder what it is you are seeing here that is different?
> >
> > tim a
>

> That was not my experience.  I also did a side by side comparison of  
> a silver FB print, air dried glossy with silver rag printed with MIS  
> K4 and there was a significant difference in the reflective  
> properties of the prints.  The FB print (Oriental seagull glossy) 
was  
> very smooth with no specular reflections - just a very nice smooth,  
> even soft gloss.  

Carl - note that isn't what I said - I said I compared it to 
a "similarly surfaced" air dried silver-gelatin paper - NOT a glossy 
air dried silver gelatin FB paper.

This was a semi-gloss or semi-matt FB paper (can't recall offhand 
which. The surface was about 93% similar to the Crane Silver Rag

tim a

> The following is a summary of my experiences with Crane Silver Rag
> using the MIS Ultratone inkset, PKN (not PK or Eboni), and an Epson 
4000:

Dirk - can you confirm exactly which MIS Photo Black you are using? 
(catalogue number...?)

thanks

Yes, it's the MIS Photo Black Neutral (PKN), available in the "Roark's
Lab" section of MIS' site. Here is the link:

http://www.inksupply.com/roarkslab.cfm

Dirk


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Atherton"
<tim@K...> wrote:

>
> 
> > The following is a summary of my experiences with Crane Silver Rag
> > using the MIS Ultratone inkset, PKN (not PK or Eboni), and an Epson 
> 4000:
> 
> Dirk - can you confirm exactly which MIS Photo Black you are using? 
> (catalogue number...?)
> 
> thanks
>

Very interesting setup -- especially for someone who is thinking about
swapping a 2200 for a 2400. Are you printing with the 2200 driver? If
so, how are you profiling the inks and paper?

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003"
<helenbach@h...> wrote:

>
> John,
> 
> At least someone is paying attention. I've mentioned this a few times 
> in the past, with little response. I use K3 inks in a 2200: MK, 
> K3/PK, K3/LK, K3/LLK, K3/LC, R800/blue, and swap between R800/red and 
> Krystal Topkote. I get the MK and the K3 inks from 110 ml carts.
> 
> It works for me.

Just to add a couple of thoughts based on very limited testing ...

Dirk wrote, in part:


> ... summary of my experiences with Crane Silver Rag
> using the MIS Ultratone inkset, PKN (not PK or Eboni), and an Epson 4000:
> 
> the closest approximation to a glossy
> fiber-based black and white darkroom paper that I have seen. (I really
> like it for this reason).

Maybe.  I can see where some think it's texture is a bit much.  Still, I
think many are going to really like this paper.

I must say, however, that while I initially thought the silver print had the
greatest surface look, I now prefer matte inkjet papers due to their total
lack of reflections.


> 3) The surface is very durable and highly scratch resistant.


I hope it holds up for postcards.  This is by far the best glossy paper I've
found for that use.  Printing looks good on the reverse side, although it
does need to dry a bit; it will smear when first out of the printer.  The
stiff paper base also seems good for postcards. 


> 4) The base white is slightly on the yellow side, though not
> excessively so. ... essentially identical to the "bright white" version
> of Westminster matboard that is sold by Light Impressions ...

Silver Rag appears to have no OBAs when viewed under a UV light.  Compared
to the no-OBA matte papers, it's more neutral.  The Lab readings of the
paper white are 97, -.30, 1.9.  For comparison, Premier Art Hot Press, one
of my favorite papers and one that uses a coating essentially identical to
Epson UltraSmooth, has readings of 97, -0.36, 2.1).

> 
> 9) Now, alas, the potentially bad news. Silver Rag will work
> wonderfully with any image using the MIS Ultratones that is either
> warm-toned or dead neutral. However, going anywhere in the cool
> direction could be problematic, depending on your tastes. I print just
> slightly cooler than neutral. Unfortunately, the slightly yellow base
> of the paper responds with the cooler (blue) inks to create a slightly
> green cast. It is not extreme, but it is noticeable nonetheless...

With UT7 I made a curve that gave me a neutral middle gray on Silver Rag.
This is the Lab reading: 56.8, -0.2, 0.00).  So, there is a bit of green
there, but less than that paper base itself.

With EZ-N in a C86 I get a midtone Lab reading of 60, -0.7, -1.1.  Again,
some green, but more bluish than greenish.  I increasingly prefer an ink
tone that matches the paper tone.  So, with the C86 I'd probably put a warm
ink in the Y position.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Chris,

Sorry, I split my full reply over two posts. I use IJC/OPM, but I
assume that QTR would also work.

Best,
Helen

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens"
<chargens@s...> wrote:

>
> Very interesting setup -- especially for someone who is thinking about
> swapping a 2200 for a 2400. Are you printing with the 2200 driver? If
> so, how are you profiling the inks and paper?
> 
> Chris Hargens
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003"
> <helenbach@h...> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> > 
> > At least someone is paying attention. I've mentioned this a few times 
> > in the past, with little response. I use K3 inks in a 2200: MK, 
> > K3/PK, K3/LK, K3/LLK, K3/LC, R800/blue, and swap between R800/red and 
> > Krystal Topkote. I get the MK and the K3 inks from 110 ml carts.
> > 
> > It works for me.
>

OK, the postcard results are in. It survives very well. A little
distress, but not a lot, and that's all part of the postcard thing
anyway. Verdict: excellent postcard stock. The USPS fluorescent red
ink* sits happily in the thin white margin I left. The back is
writeable with a felt pen (Sharpie), less so with a fountain pen.
Well, you can't have everything.

*The US Postal Service prints a bar code in fluorescent red ink on the
image side of a postcard. If the image interferes with this, they
stick a yellow tape on it. 

For clarification: Silver Rag printed in a 2200 with K3 inks using
IJC/OPM.

Best,
Helen
PS Apart from the spangly surface, I'm not all that keen on the name.
Silver? I'd rather have respect for a fine print than ridicule for a
name that smells of marketing hype. Brothers and Sisters, do we need
to be pretenders to the silver gelatin throne or should we free
ourselves from this tyrranny forever? We have nothing to lose but our
chains. 

> I'm also testing it with K3 (and my K3/R800 mix). I'm currently
> collaborating with the USPS in a rigorous durability test program (ie
> I've sent a few postcards to my distant friends to see how they stand
> up to sorting machines).

"With EZ-N in a C86 I get a midtone Lab reading of 60, -0.7, -1.1. 
Again,
some green, but more bluish than greenish. I increasingly prefer an ink
tone that matches the paper tone. So, with the C86 I'd probably put a 
warm
ink in the Y position."

Paul, 

What driver settings have you used in the C-86 driver witht the Silver 
Rag?

Or, haven't you got that far yet?

Scott

Scott,

For this quick and dirty test I just used my Premium Glossy settings, which
are Glossy Photo Paper, Best, High speed, gamma 1.8, Brightness +1, Contrast
-15.  The print is a bit light, but the ramp looks reasonably good -- 95% is
separated from 100%, but barely.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> scott_now_coming
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:05 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> 
> "With EZ-N in a C86 I get a midtone Lab reading of 60, -0.7, -1.1.
> Again,
> some green, but more bluish than greenish. I increasingly prefer an ink
> tone that matches the paper tone. So, with the C86 I'd probably put a
> warm
> ink in the Y position."
> 
> Paul,
> 
> What driver settings have you used in the C-86 driver witht the Silver
> Rag?
> 
> Or, haven't you got that far yet?
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
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> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

Thanks Paul, I've got one sheet left. I'll give it a try. :>)

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> Scott,
> 
> For this quick and dirty test I just used my Premium Glossy 
settings, which
> are Glossy Photo Paper, Best, High speed, gamma 1.8, Brightness +1, 
Contrast
> -15.  The print is a bit light, but the ramp looks reasonably good -
- 95% is
> separated from 100%, but barely.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > scott_now_coming
> > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:05 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> > 
> > "With EZ-N in a C86 I get a midtone Lab reading of 60, -0.7, -1.1.
> > Again,
> > some green, but more bluish than greenish. I increasingly prefer 
an ink
> > tone that matches the paper tone. So, with the C86 I'd probably 
put a
> > warm
> > ink in the Y position."
> > 
> > Paul,
> > 
> > What driver settings have you used in the C-86 driver witht the 
Silver
> > Rag?
> > 
> > Or, haven't you got that far yet?
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) 
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
(ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE

> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>

Paul,

Were you getting ANY banding withn the Silver Rag?

I ran nozzle checks on both of my printers before and after printing 
on my C86, w/EZ inks, aND THE ePSON 4800 w/OEM inks, and I had 
banding on all five sheets. Even on one of the color prints I made on 
the 4800.

Other than that, I really like this paper. I had HIGHexpectations 
form this paper with B&W images and was pleased with the results.

Being in a B&W thinking mode, I guess< I wasn't expecting much. But 
the color print I made blew me away. The color was at least as good 
as ANY paper or cnavas I've used.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> Scott,
> 
> For this quick and dirty test I just used my Premium Glossy 
settings, which
> are Glossy Photo Paper, Best, High speed, gamma 1.8, Brightness +1, 
Contrast
> -15.  The print is a bit light, but the ramp looks reasonably good -
- 95% is
> separated from 100%, but barely.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > scott_now_coming
> > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:05 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> > 
> > "With EZ-N in a C86 I get a midtone Lab reading of 60, -0.7, -1.1.
> > Again,
> > some green, but more bluish than greenish. I increasingly prefer 
an ink
> > tone that matches the paper tone. So, with the C86 I'd probably 
put a
> > warm
> > ink in the Y position."
> > 
> > Paul,
> > 
> > What driver settings have you used in the C-86 driver witht the 
Silver
> > Rag?
> > 
> > Or, haven't you got that far yet?
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
THE
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
HAVE BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) 
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
(ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
DATA; (iii)
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE

> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>

I just saw a show today of Harry Callahan's color work that was
produced on dye transfer material. I think this paper is resembles tha
a lot as well as the old Agfa Color fiber type c paper ( that stuff
was beautiful). Have to do some testing though with differnt inks. But
hell, we've got Photoshop to push it with.

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:

>
> Paul,
> 
> Were you getting ANY banding withn the Silver Rag?
> 
> I ran nozzle checks on both of my printers before and after printing 
> on my C86, w/EZ inks, aND THE ePSON 4800 w/OEM inks, and I had 
> banding on all five sheets. Even on one of the color prints I made on 
> the 4800.
> 
> Other than that, I really like this paper. I had HIGHexpectations 
> form this paper with B&W images and was pleased with the results.
> 
> Being in a B&W thinking mode, I guess< I wasn't expecting much. But 
> the color print I made blew me away. The color was at least as good 
> as ANY paper or cnavas I've used.
> 
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >
> > Scott,
> > 
> > For this quick and dirty test I just used my Premium Glossy 
> settings, which
> > are Glossy Photo Paper, Best, High speed, gamma 1.8, Brightness +1, 
> Contrast
> > -15.  The print is a bit light, but the ramp looks reasonably good -
> - 95% is
> > separated from 100%, but barely.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com 
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > > scott_now_coming
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:05 PM
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> > > 
> > > "With EZ-N in a C86 I get a midtone Lab reading of 60, -0.7, -1.1.
> > > Again,
> > > some green, but more bluish than greenish. I increasingly prefer 
> an ink
> > > tone that matches the paper tone. So, with the C86 I'd probably 
> put a
> > > warm
> > > ink in the Y position."
> > > 
> > > Paul,
> > > 
> > > What driver settings have you used in the C-86 driver witht the 
> Silver
> > > Rag?
> > > 
> > > Or, haven't you got that far yet?
> > > 
> > > Scott
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as
> > > they are often being updated.
> > > 
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > > 
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
> wish to
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same
> > > page.
> > > 
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
> messages to keep
> > > them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames.
> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > > membership without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
> digital B&W
> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from
> > > the membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
> and
> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
> group Owner
> > > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
> Files
> > > section:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > > 
> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT
> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" 
> AND
> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO
> > > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
> OR
> > > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS 
> OF
> > > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF 
> THE
> > > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
> HAVE BEEN
> > > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) 
> THE USE
> > > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
> (ii)
> > > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR 
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> > > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
>

Scott,

> 
> Were you getting ANY banding withn the Silver Rag?

I can't see any with the strongest reading glasses I have.  (+3 drugstore
type)  With these glasses and my magnifying hood I can see very slight
defects, including very mild microbanding and pizza wheel marks.  These,
however, are in the range of what I'd consider rather normal and not visible
in normal viewing.
 
The paper is really stiff.  I pre-fed it with a push assist before printing.
I can imagine that some printers would have feeding problems.

I think Crane has a winner here.  I hope they can keep the price reasonable.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

OK,

How do we get ahold of some?

Kevin Anderson


Kevin Anderson Photography

the Art of Visual Storytelling
Commercial Photography with a Purpose

http://www.kevinandersonphotography.com/

kdap@...

866-405-6226- v
 
6336 N. Oracle Rd Ste 326 Unit 372
Tucson, AZ 85704


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I guess I should have mentioned I was seeing banding with my eyes, 
not with a loupe.

No one else has mentioned seeing any banding with Silver Rag.

Strange... if it was happened with one of my printers, I would have 
written it off. But it happened on my 4800 which is a high quality 
printer.

Thanks,

Scott
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> Scott,
> 
> > 
> > Were you getting ANY banding withn the Silver Rag?
> 
> I can't see any with the strongest reading glasses I have.  (+3 
drugstore
> type)  With these glasses and my magnifying hood I can see very 
slight
> defects, including very mild microbanding and pizza wheel marks.  
These,
> however, are in the range of what I'd consider rather normal and 
not visible
> in normal viewing.
>  
> The paper is really stiff.  I pre-fed it with a push assist before 
printing.
> I can imagine that some printers would have feeding problems.
> 
> I think Crane has a winner here.  I hope they can keep the price 
reasonable.

> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

I tried some color also with the IP profile.  It does have a great
look...subdued compared to PR.

Ken 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of john dean
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:09 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> 
> I just saw a show today of Harry Callahan's color work that 
> was produced on dye transfer material. I think this paper is 
> resembles tha a lot as well as the old Agfa Color fiber type 
> c paper ( that stuff was beautiful). Have to do some testing 
> though with differnt inks. But hell, we've got Photoshop to 
> push it with.
> 
> john

I have a batch of Beta II Silver Rag.  I'm also seeing a strange banding with the naked eye.  
The surface seems smoother and there is slightly less bronzing but it's still there.  The curl 
is also causing the print head to  catch slightly on the edge of the paper.

I'm printing on an Epson 4000

Jim


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:

>
> I guess I should have mentioned I was seeing banding with my eyes, 
> not with a loupe.
> 
> No one else has mentioned seeing any banding with Silver Rag.
> 
> Strange... if it was happened with one of my printers, I would have 
> written it off. But it happened on my 4800 which is a high quality 
> printer.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Scott
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >
> > Scott,
> > 
> > > 
> > > Were you getting ANY banding withn the Silver Rag?
> > 
> > I can't see any with the strongest reading glasses I have.  (+3 
> drugstore
> > type)  With these glasses and my magnifying hood I can see very 
> slight
> > defects, including very mild microbanding and pizza wheel marks.  
> These,
> > however, are in the range of what I'd consider rather normal and 
> not visible
> > in normal viewing.
> >  
> > The paper is really stiff.  I pre-fed it with a push assist before 
> printing.
> > I can imagine that some printers would have feeding problems.
> > 
> > I think Crane has a winner here.  I hope they can keep the price 
> reasonable.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
>

I don't get this.  How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? Even very
broad bands from too much ink sitting on the paper and it drying unevenly is
not the fault of the paper but the person setting the ink limits...What am I
missing?

> From: jamesdsteele2001 <photographybysteele@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:44:47 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> 
> I have a batch of Beta II Silver Rag.  I'm also seeing a strange banding with
> the naked eye.  
> The surface seems smoother and there is slightly less bronzing but it's still
> there.  The curl 
> is also causing the print head to  catch slightly on the edge of the paper.
> 
> I'm printing on an Epson 4000
> 
> Jim
>

It wouldn't .




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
  How on earth would a paper cause "banding"?

You are quite right, 
                             the paper couldn't! but the "Coating" could. If you mix silica and alumina particles and don't get the particle size balanced and dispersed with the correct balancing carrier, you can get banding due to uneven ink absorption of the particles, as the one substance is considerably more absorbent than the other, plus other differences in the pH. This usually creates mainly light and dark banding.
   
  John_e
   
   
   
  
john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
  It wouldn't .




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
  How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? 





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Beta II? How do you know it's a bata II version.

When I recieved mine in late December 2005, I didn't see any data 
version mention in the enclosed letter (mine came in a plain, clear 
cellopane envelope.

Scott

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jamesdsteele2001" 
<photographybysteele@p...> wrote:
>
> I have a batch of Beta II Silver Rag.  I'm also seeing a strange 
banding with the naked eye.  
> The surface seems smoother and there is slightly less bronzing but 
it's still there.  The curl 
> is also causing the print head to  catch slightly on the edge of 
the paper.
> 
> I'm printing on an Epson 4000
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I guess I should have mentioned I was seeing banding with my 
eyes, 
> > not with a loupe.
> > 
> > No one else has mentioned seeing any banding with Silver Rag.
> > 
> > Strange... if it was happened with one of my printers, I would 
have 
> > written it off. But it happened on my 4800 which is a high 
quality 
> > printer.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Scott
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Scott,
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Were you getting ANY banding withn the Silver Rag?
> > > 
> > > I can't see any with the strongest reading glasses I have.  (+3 
> > drugstore
> > > type)  With these glasses and my magnifying hood I can see very 
> > slight
> > > defects, including very mild microbanding and pizza wheel 
marks.  
> > These,
> > > however, are in the range of what I'd consider rather normal 
and 
> > not visible
> > > in normal viewing.
> > >  
> > > The paper is really stiff.  I pre-fed it with a push assist 
before 
> > printing.
> > > I can imagine that some printers would have feeding problems.
> > > 
> > > I think Crane has a winner here.  I hope they can keep the 
price 

> > reasonable.
> > > 
> > > Paul
> > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > >
> >
>

So, you think it was the ink limits? I guess that's possilbe.

What media setting were you using for the SIlver Rag in the Epson 
driver?

Since there was no mention of settings to use with the samples, I 
selected "Premium Glossy Photo Paper 250" as media type.

The C86 has faint banding (when viewed with the proverbial "naked 
eye") from head to toe.

The 4800 prints only that that type of "banding" on about the last 
1/3 of the sheet of paper. That top 2/3 of the paper was fine. Go 
figure...

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> I don't get this.  How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? Even 
very
> broad bands from too much ink sitting on the paper and it drying 
unevenly is
> not the fault of the paper but the person setting the ink 
limits...What am I
> missing?
> 
> 
> > From: jamesdsteele2001 <photographybysteele@p...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:44:47 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> > 
> > I have a batch of Beta II Silver Rag.  I'm also seeing a strange 
banding with
> > the naked eye.  
> > The surface seems smoother and there is slightly less bronzing 
but it's still
> > there.  The curl 
> > is also causing the print head to  catch slightly on the edge of 
the paper.

> > 
> > I'm printing on an Epson 4000
> > 
> > Jim
> >
>

So, you think it was the ink limits? I guess that's possilbe.

What media setting were you using for the SIlver Rag in the Epson 
driver?

Since there was no mention of settings to use with the samples, I 
selected "Premium Glossy Photo Paper 250" as media type.

The C86 has faint banding (when viewed with the proverbial "naked 
eye") from head to toe.

The 4800 prints only that that type of "banding" on about the last 
1/3 of the sheet of paper. That top 2/3 of the paper was fine. Go 
figure...

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> I don't get this.  How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? Even 
very
> broad bands from too much ink sitting on the paper and it drying 
unevenly is
> not the fault of the paper but the person setting the ink 
limits...What am I
> missing?
> 
> 
> > From: jamesdsteele2001 <photographybysteele@p...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:44:47 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
> > 
> > I have a batch of Beta II Silver Rag.  I'm also seeing a strange 
banding with
> > the naked eye.  
> > The surface seems smoother and there is slightly less bronzing 
but it's still
> > there.  The curl 
> > is also causing the print head to  catch slightly on the edge of 
the paper.

> > 
> > I'm printing on an Epson 4000
> > 
> > Jim
> >
>

Ahhhh... John, you may be on to something here.

The coating may have not been evenly "spread" across the paper.

I'm sure this will be corrected for it's release. Maybe I got "old" 
stock of this paper.

Images looked great though. I'm excited about this paper.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John 
<charleysfabrics@y...> wrote:
>
> You are quite right, 
>                              the paper couldn't! but the "Coating" 
could. If you mix silica and alumina particles and don't get the 
particle size balanced and dispersed with the correct balancing 
carrier, you can get banding due to uneven ink absorption of the 
particles, as the one substance is considerably more absorbent than 
the other, plus other differences in the pH. This usually creates 
mainly light and dark banding.
>    
>   John_e
>    
>    
>    
>   
> john dean <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>   It wouldn't .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >
>   How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   SPONSORED LINKS 
>         Digital wedding photography   Learn digital photography   
Digital photography college     Digital photography   Digital 
photography web site   Digital photography course 
>     
> ---------------------------------
>   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
>     
>     Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
>     
>     To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>     
>     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
>     
> ---------------------------------
>   
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Because Jim Doyle from Shades of Paper brought it to me and told me it
was a second generation beta version.

It has a slightly smoother surface than the original batch and, as I
indicated, the bronzing was slightly less.

I have a pretty good supply of the second batch and intend to test it
more thoroughly over the next several weeks.

The strange banding to which I referred in my earlier post seemed
almost to result from the print heads touching the paper.  Kind of
strange.  I've never seen anything quite like it. It doesn't show up
head on but is quite apparent when viewed on an angle.

The paper had a very pronounced curl which caused the head to catch
slightly on each side.  I presume the sheets were cut from a roll.

Stay tuned.

Jim

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:

>
> Beta II? How do you know it's a bata II version.
> 
> When I recieved mine in late December 2005, I didn't see any data 
> version mention in the enclosed letter (mine came in a plain, clear 
> cellopane envelope.
> 
> Scott
> 
> --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jamesdsteele2001" 
> <photographybysteele@p...> wrote:
> >
> > I have a batch of Beta II Silver Rag.  I'm also seeing a strange 
> banding with the naked eye.  
> > The surface seems smoother and there is slightly less bronzing but 
> it's still there.  The curl 
> > is also causing the print head to  catch slightly on the edge of 
> the paper.
> > 
> > I'm printing on an Epson 4000
> > 
> > Jim
> > 
> > 
> > --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> > <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I guess I should have mentioned I was seeing banding with my 
> eyes, 
> > > not with a loupe.
> > > 
> > > No one else has mentioned seeing any banding with Silver Rag.
> > > 
> > > Strange... if it was happened with one of my printers, I would 
> have 
> > > written it off. But it happened on my 4800 which is a high 
> quality 
> > > printer.
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > Scott
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> > > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Scott,
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Were you getting ANY banding withn the Silver Rag?
> > > > 
> > > > I can't see any with the strongest reading glasses I have.  (+3 
> > > drugstore
> > > > type)  With these glasses and my magnifying hood I can see very 
> > > slight
> > > > defects, including very mild microbanding and pizza wheel 
> marks.  
> > > These,
> > > > however, are in the range of what I'd consider rather normal 
> and 
> > > not visible
> > > > in normal viewing.
> > > >  
> > > > The paper is really stiff.  I pre-fed it with a push assist 
> before 
> > > printing.
> > > > I can imagine that some printers would have feeding problems.
> > > > 
> > > > I think Crane has a winner here.  I hope they can keep the 
> price 
> > > reasonable.
> > > > 
> > > > Paul
> > > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

" I presume the sheets were cut from a roll."

I think so, too. The long edge on on side was a little "crushed". 

I was supposed to recieve a 17" roll, but I haven't seen it yet. Some 
are saying that the Silver Rag is going to be releaded in Feb. Don't 
know if that is true or not. If so, maybe no more bata paper will be 
sent out.

Please keep me informed of your testing.

Scott



--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jamesdsteele2001" 
<photographybysteele@p...> wrote:
>
> Because Jim Doyle from Shades of Paper brought it to me and told me 
it
> was a second generation beta version.
> 
> It has a slightly smoother surface than the original batch and, as I
> indicated, the bronzing was slightly less.
> 
> I have a pretty good supply of the second batch and intend to test 
it
> more thoroughly over the next several weeks.
> 
> The strange banding to which I referred in my earlier post seemed
> almost to result from the print heads touching the paper.  Kind of
> strange.  I've never seen anything quite like it. It doesn't show up
> head on but is quite apparent when viewed on an angle.
> 
> The paper had a very pronounced curl which caused the head to catch
> slightly on each side.  I presume the sheets were cut from a roll.
> 
> Stay tuned.
> 
> Jim
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Beta II? How do you know it's a bata II version.
> > 
> > When I recieved mine in late December 2005, I didn't see any data 
> > version mention in the enclosed letter (mine came in a plain, 
clear 
> > cellopane envelope.
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > --- In 
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jamesdsteele2001" 
> > <photographybysteele@p...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have a batch of Beta II Silver Rag.  I'm also seeing a 
strange 
> > banding with the naked eye.  
> > > The surface seems smoother and there is slightly less bronzing 
but 
> > it's still there.  The curl 
> > > is also causing the print head to  catch slightly on the edge 
of 
> > the paper.
> > > 
> > > I'm printing on an Epson 4000
> > > 
> > > Jim
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In 
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> > > <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I guess I should have mentioned I was seeing banding with my 
> > eyes, 
> > > > not with a loupe.
> > > > 
> > > > No one else has mentioned seeing any banding with Silver Rag.
> > > > 
> > > > Strange... if it was happened with one of my printers, I 
would 
> > have 
> > > > written it off. But it happened on my 4800 which is a high 
> > quality 
> > > > printer.
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > 
> > > > Scott
> > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul 
Roark" 
> > > > <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott,
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Were you getting ANY banding withn the Silver Rag?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I can't see any with the strongest reading glasses I have.  
(+3 
> > > > drugstore
> > > > > type)  With these glasses and my magnifying hood I can see 
very 
> > > > slight
> > > > > defects, including very mild microbanding and pizza wheel 
> > marks.  
> > > > These,
> > > > > however, are in the range of what I'd consider rather 
normal 
> > and 
> > > > not visible
> > > > > in normal viewing.
> > > > >  
> > > > > The paper is really stiff.  I pre-fed it with a push assist 
> > before 
> > > > printing.
> > > > > I can imagine that some printers would have feeding 
problems.

> > > > > 
> > > > > I think Crane has a winner here.  I hope they can keep the 
> > price 
> > > > reasonable.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Paul
> > > > > www.PaulRoark.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi Scott,
            I hope your right, but I didn't mean "not spreading the coating" evenly, with these type of formulations it is more likely caused by Layer Banding due to the dispersions not being done correctly.
   
  John_e
   
  

scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...> wrote:
  Ahhhh... John, you may be on to something here.

The coating may have not been evenly "spread" across the paper.

I'm sure this will be corrected for it's release. Maybe I got "old" 
stock of this paper.

Images looked great though. I'm excited about this paper.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John 
<charleysfabrics@y...> wrote:
>
> You are quite right, 
>                              the paper couldn't! but the "Coating" 
could. If you mix silica and alumina particles and don't get the 
particle size balanced and dispersed with the correct balancing 
carrier, you can get banding due to uneven ink absorption of the 
particles, as the one substance is considerably more absorbent than 
the other, plus other differences in the pH. This usually creates 
mainly light and dark banding.
>    
>   John_e
>    
>    
>    
>   
> john dean <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>   It wouldn't .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >
>   How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

>
> I don't get this.  How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? Even 
very
> broad bands from too much ink sitting on the paper and it drying 
unevenly is
> not the fault of the paper but the person setting the ink 
limits...What am I
> missing?

This kind of banding is not unknown to people making inkjet negatives. 
So the banding can be dependent on the substrate. I think this banding 
effect is referred to as Venitian Blind effect.

Don Bryant

Steve,

>
> I don't get this.  How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? Even 
very
> broad bands from too much ink sitting on the paper and it drying 
unevenly is
> not the fault of the paper but the person setting the ink 
limits...What am I
> missing?

This kind of banding is not unknown to people making inkjet negatives. 
So the banding can be dependent on the substrate. I think this banding 
effect is referred to as Venitian Blind effect.

Don Bryant

In my experiece its either in the file itself (most of the time) or
the linearization of the machine in relation to the media. Now
printing on film can create banding, and I've exprienced it with ohp
film, but the problem isn't the film, its the way the ink is being
laid down, just like he suggested, the ink limits or the gradation
curve. By the way there is nothing wrong with the Silver Rag, its cool.

john



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "donbga"
<dstevenbryant@m...> wrote:

>
> Steve,
> 
> >
> > I don't get this.  How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? Even 
> very
> > broad bands from too much ink sitting on the paper and it drying 
> unevenly is
> > not the fault of the paper but the person setting the ink 
> limits...What am I
> > missing?
> 
> This kind of banding is not unknown to people making inkjet negatives. 
> So the banding can be dependent on the substrate. I think this banding 
> effect is referred to as Venitian Blind effect.
> 
> Don Bryant
>

In my case it was NOT the file. Or the printers in either case. I 
ran nozzel checks before and after printing on the Silver Rag.

Then, I printed on Kirkland with other any problems. Next, I printed 
several 12x15" canvas prints without a problem.

So, it was either the Silver Rag it's self, or it was the madia 
setting that I chose (Premium Glossy 250).

Whatever... I'm sure Crane will have it straightened out before it's 
released.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> In my experiece its either in the file itself (most of the time) or
> the linearization of the machine in relation to the media. Now
> printing on film can create banding, and I've exprienced it with ohp
> film, but the problem isn't the film, its the way the ink is being
> laid down, just like he suggested, the ink limits or the gradation
> curve. By the way there is nothing wrong with the Silver Rag, its 
cool.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "donbga"
> <dstevenbryant@m...> wrote:
> >
> > Steve,
> > 
> > >
> > > I don't get this.  How on earth would a paper cause "banding"? 
Even 
> > very
> > > broad bands from too much ink sitting on the paper and it 
drying 
> > unevenly is
> > > not the fault of the paper but the person setting the ink 
> > limits...What am I
> > > missing?
> > 
> > This kind of banding is not unknown to people making inkjet 
negatives. 
> > So the banding can be dependent on the substrate. I think this 
banding 

> > effect is referred to as Venitian Blind effect.
> > 
> > Don Bryant
> >
>

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
>
>  In my case it was NOT the file. Or the printers in either case. I 
> ran nozzel checks before and after printing on the Silver Rag.
> 
> Then, I printed on Kirkland with other any problems. Next, I 
printed 
> several 12x15" canvas prints without a problem.
> 
> So, it was either the Silver Rag it's self, or it was the madia 
> setting that I chose (Premium Glossy 250).
> 
> Whatever... I'm sure Crane will have it straightened out before 
it's 
> released.

Is that paper so thick that it may need the head height raised? Or 
maybe it is just that this paper is causing some kid of paper feed 
problem.

The paper is thick. I'm not sure how thick, but I did have the platen 
gap set to "auto" on the 4800. I don't thick there's that kind of 
adjustment for the C86.

I'm sure when the paper is released, Crane will inform the buyer of 
settings to use.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >
> >  In my case it was NOT the file. Or the printers in either case. 
I 

> > ran nozzel checks before and after printing on the Silver Rag.
> > 
> > Then, I printed on Kirkland with other any problems. Next, I 
> printed 
> > several 12x15" canvas prints without a problem.
> > 
> > So, it was either the Silver Rag it's self, or it was the madia 
> > setting that I chose (Premium Glossy 250).
> > 
> > Whatever... I'm sure Crane will have it straightened out before 
> it's 
> > released.
> 
> Is that paper so thick that it may need the head height raised? Or 
> maybe it is just that this paper is causing some kid of paper feed 
> problem.
>

--- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
>
> The paper is thick. I'm not sure how thick, but I did have the 
platen 
> gap set to "auto" on the 4800. I don't thick there's that kind of 
> adjustment for the C86.
> 
> I'm sure when the paper is released, Crane will inform the buyer of 
> settings to use.
> 
> Scott


On the C86, you could try the envelope setting (if it has one). And 
on the 4800 try setting it to a higher height, or thicker media as 
opposed to auto. That should cure the micro bands, but it might also 
make the detail slightly fuzzy. Also in the 4800, isn't there a feed 
adjustment setting? You should be able to adjust that so everthing 
lines up better. If it is the same value as the older printers, it 
should be about 1/100 of an inch per number (unless they used metric, 
but I think it is still 1/100 of a unit). That adjustment might even 
be in the driver, as I thought Epson moved it there with the 76/9600 
after may complaints about having to go into the menu to change the 
value.

Yes, the 4800 has those adjustments you mentioned. If I recieve that 
trial roll that Crane was supposed to send to me, I'll give it a try.

Thanks, Greg.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >
> > The paper is thick. I'm not sure how thick, but I did have the 
> platen 
> > gap set to "auto" on the 4800. I don't thick there's that kind of 
> > adjustment for the C86.
> > 
> > I'm sure when the paper is released, Crane will inform the buyer 
of 
> > settings to use.
> > 
> > Scott
> 
> 
> On the C86, you could try the envelope setting (if it has one). And 
> on the 4800 try setting it to a higher height, or thicker media as 
> opposed to auto. That should cure the micro bands, but it might 
also 
> make the detail slightly fuzzy. Also in the 4800, isn't there a 
feed 
> adjustment setting? You should be able to adjust that so everthing 
> lines up better. If it is the same value as the older printers, it 
> should be about 1/100 of an inch per number (unless they used 
metric, 
> but I think it is still 1/100 of a unit). That adjustment might 
even 
> be in the driver, as I thought Epson moved it there with the 
76/9600 

> after may complaints about having to go into the menu to change the 
> value.
>

I've finally gotten around to scanning some of my 4x5 negatives, and I 
wonder what ppi I should send to the printer. Given the large size of my 
files, I could send a 720 ppi file without resizing, but some think that 
this leads to a drop in quality.  For example, In Real World Photoshop 
CS2, Bruce Fraser and David Blatner say, "It's certainly possible to 
send too much data to an inkjet printer, not only increasing print times 
unconsciously but also degrading the image. You do not want to send a 
1440-ppi image to a 1440 dpi inkjet." (p843.)  I seem to remember them 
saying that 720 ppi is too much as well.  They recommend 480 ppi for 
small prints, and 360 or 240 for large one.  To meet this requirement, 
I'd have to significanly down-sample my files, at least with my R2400. 
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I don't think sending 720 to a desktop Epson will ever degrade the image.
I've experimented with files that had resolutions above that and noticed
that some information was simply omitted by the driver.  As such, I would
rather have Photoshop do my re-sizing down to at most 720 for the desktop
units.  For the older large format printers I've heard that 360 is their
native resolution.  Again, Photoshop may do a better job of re-sizing than
Epson.  On the other hand, I'd be skeptical that anyone would ever see the
differences.  I usually limit the large images to 360 just to save time.  On
desktop units, however, many people claim they can see improvements up to
720.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
> De Smidt
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:00 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] File Resolution
> 
> I've finally gotten around to scanning some of my 4x5 negatives, and I
> wonder what ppi I should send to the printer. Given the large size of my
> files, I could send a 720 ppi file without resizing, but some think that
> this leads to a drop in quality.  For example, In Real World Photoshop
> CS2, Bruce Fraser and David Blatner say, "It's certainly possible to
> send too much data to an inkjet printer, not only increasing print times
> unconsciously but also degrading the image. You do not want to send a
> 1440-ppi image to a 1440 dpi inkjet." (p843.)  I seem to remember them
> saying that 720 ppi is too much as well.  They recommend 480 ppi for
> small prints, and 360 or 240 for large one.  To meet this requirement,
> I'd have to significanly down-sample my files, at least with my R2400.
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
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> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
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> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
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> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
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> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>

I have no experience with the larger printers, but I have looked at my 2200
output with images from 240 to 720 DPI and I see no difference. I haven't
used a 10X loupe, but I don't expect people looking at my prints will be
using one either.
Bert

Bert Katzung
katzung1@...
http://www.astronomy-images.com
http://www.visionlightgallery.com/katzung/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:44 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] File Resolution


I don't think sending 720 to a desktop Epson will ever degrade the image.
I've experimented with files that had resolutions above that and noticed
that some information was simply omitted by the driver.  As such, I would
rather have Photoshop do my re-sizing down to at most 720 for the desktop
units.  For the older large format printers I've heard that 360 is their
native resolution.  Again, Photoshop may do a better job of re-sizing than
Epson.  On the other hand, I'd be skeptical that anyone would ever see the
differences.  I usually limit the large images to 360 just to save time.  On
desktop units, however, many people claim they can see improvements up to
720.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
> De Smidt
> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:00 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] File Resolution
>
> I've finally gotten around to scanning some of my 4x5 negatives, and I
> wonder what ppi I should send to the printer. Given the large size of my
> files, I could send a 720 ppi file without resizing, but some think that
> this leads to a drop in quality.  For example, In Real World Photoshop
> CS2, Bruce Fraser and David Blatner say, "It's certainly possible to
> send too much data to an inkjet printer, not only increasing print times
> unconsciously but also degrading the image. You do not want to send a
> 1440-ppi image to a 1440 dpi inkjet." (p843.)  I seem to remember them
> saying that 720 ppi is too much as well.  They recommend 480 ppi for
> small prints, and 360 or 240 for large one.  To meet this requirement,
> I'd have to significanly down-sample my files, at least with my R2400.
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
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GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Peter De Smidt wrote:
> I've finally gotten around to scanning some of my 4x5 negatives, and I 
> wonder what ppi I should send to the printer. Given the large size of my 
> files, I could send a 720 ppi file without resizing, but some think that 
> this leads to a drop in quality.  For example, In Real World Photoshop 
> CS2, Bruce Fraser and David Blatner say, "It's certainly possible to 
> send too much data to an inkjet printer, not only increasing print times 
> unconsciously but also degrading the image. You do not want to send a 
> 1440-ppi image to a 1440 dpi inkjet." (p843.)  I seem to remember them 
> saying that 720 ppi is too much as well.  They recommend 480 ppi for 
> small prints, and 360 or 240 for large one.  To meet this requirement, 
> I'd have to significanly down-sample my files, at least with my R2400. 
> Anyone have any thoughts on this?


Peter,

This has been discussed before on several lists. Bruce could 
be right in some cases, more in the past than now. It is a 
pity that he didn't explain what happens.

The Qimage list usually gives the best explanations for what 
happens and the tools to get best quality.

Native resolution is the key in this discussion. The recent 
Epson desktop models have 720 PPI as their native resolution 
for almost all settings (Qimage shows the native resolution 
above the preview window, it gets that information from 
Windows API where the printer/driver puts that request). The 
recent Epson wide formats have 360 PPI most of the time and 
720 PPI when fine detail is selected (if allowed for that 
paper etc). Older models have 360 PPI. The Fuji Frontier has 
300 PPI and there are other numbers around.

If the printer you select has a 300 PPI native resolution then 
either the software you print from or the driver has to do up- 
or down-sampling to get the right resolution for input if it 
wasn't 300 PPI right away. The up- and down-sampling routines 
in the software differ from one another. Early Epson drivers 
had at best a nearest neighbour algorithm. Today a crude 
bicubic. We all understand that up-sampling can be done with 
different results due to the quality of the algorithms. It is 
an issue with down-sampling too. Anti-aliasing is one of the 
things often missing in the drivers. So the quality can 
decrease in down-sampling by the driver if compared to a good 
down-sampling done in image editing software.

It is hard to predict what happens in the workflow you use. If 
your printer uses 720 PPI native resolution then sending 720 
PPI doesn't harm. Whether it will show better quality than 
sending a 360 PPI file that has been carefully down-sampled in 
editing software and carefully up-sampled by good driver 
software again is hard to predict. If the native resolution of 
the printer is 360 PPI or an odd number then I would send that 
data after careful down-sampling. I use Qimage and that does 
the job automatically and good 90% of the time.

Bart de Wolf has a nice page on the subject:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/foto/down_sample/example1.htm

Ernst


                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Bert,

Roger Clark and others could tell the difference between 300 and 600ppi in 
blind tests:-

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/printer-ppi/index.html

and he puts the resolution of the human eye at between 700-1000 ppi

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/printer-ppi/

Printing with a 2200/2100 at 2880 can certainly resolve lines at 600 per 
inch, but if you haven't got 20/20 eyesight, you won't see all the detail.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bert Katzung" <katzung1@...>


I have no experience with the larger printers, but I have looked at my 2200
output with images from 240 to 720 DPI and I see no difference. I haven't
used a 10X loupe, but I don't expect people looking at my prints will be
using one either.

This subject seems to come round constantly but each time I think I  
am getting a grasp of the concepts for scanning and printing, someone  
says something new which fills me with doubt and, if like me you are  
getting a once only opportunity to scan pictures for archiving and  
printing, where small detail can be important, I get worried that I  
am not hitting the right spot between economy of space and hedging my  
bets for future printing capabilities.

For example, I am currently scanning black and white extracts from  
images and negatives which are at a crop size of about 3" x 2".  I  
want to be able to print these at razor sharp optimum at A4 size but  
I keep being told that between 200 dpi and 300dpi will be fine and I  
have done many already heeding this advice and am happy to note the  
files are not at all huge. I use VueScan which computes the  
resolution based on a comparison of the original to the desired print  
size and I can't help feeling that the prints may not be as crisp as  
they could be. There does not seem to be a VueScan forum or indeed  
any VueScan support, so whenever I see people discussing these issues  
I get twitchy and start asking questions. So sorry if I seem to be  
taking this a bit off topic.

My main printers are 360 machines but I would like to think that when  
the time comes and capabilities improve I will have scans which can  
fully exploit the raised printing standard. On the other hand, I can  
see there are physical limitations to the human eye. I would like to  
be able to apply the 10" viewing rule to A3 images but do not want to  
flip the other way and end up with massive files which take an  
eternity to scan.

Presumably there is an equation which can work back from a printing  
optimum but I remain confused.  if I could be guided to a definitive  
resource of comforting information, I would be very grateful

:0]

Thanks

Drew

On 13 Mar 2006, at 11:36, Bob Frost wrote:

> Bert,
>
> Roger Clark and others could tell the difference between 300 and  
> 600ppi in
> blind tests:-
>
> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/printer-ppi/index.html
>
> and he puts the resolution of the human eye at between 700-1000 ppi
>
> http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/printer-ppi/
>
> Printing with a 2200/2100 at 2880 can certainly resolve lines at  
> 600 per
> inch, but if you haven't got 20/20 eyesight, you won't see all the  
> detail.
>
> Bob Frost.

I printed a checkerboard of one pixel squares and sets of lines one
pixel wide at 1440, 720, 360, 300 and 288 ppi using the Epson driver
and OPM on two different 2200s loaded with glossy paper.

With the Epson driver at the 1440 and 2880 dpi settings the only print
that was free of artefacts was the one made at 288 ppi. The 360 ppi
was close, and the definition of the lines was very good. At higher
ppi the checkerboard and lines were not well defined.

With OPM the 360 ppi print had the fewest artefacts, but none were
artefact-free. Moire-like lines were evident on all the prints, but
least noticeable at 360 ppi. The definition was also best at 360 ppi.
At higher ppi the checkerboard was not properly defined. 

There appears to be a difference between the 'native' horizontal and
vertical resolution.

If the test patch had been too small, all the artefacts would not have
been evident. The test patches were one inch square at 360 ppi.

Best,
Helen

Helen Bach wrote:
> I printed a checkerboard of one pixel squares and sets of lines one
> pixel wide at 1440, 720, 360, 300 and 288 ppi using the Epson driver
> and OPM on two different 2200s loaded with glossy paper.
> 
> With the Epson driver at the 1440 and 2880 dpi settings the only print
> that was free of artefacts was the one made at 288 ppi. The 360 ppi
> was close, and the definition of the lines was very good. At higher
> ppi the checkerboard and lines were not well defined.
> 
> With OPM the 360 ppi print had the fewest artefacts, but none were
> artefact-free. Moire-like lines were evident on all the prints, but
> least noticeable at 360 ppi. The definition was also best at 360 ppi.
> At higher ppi the checkerboard was not properly defined. 
> 
> There appears to be a difference between the 'native' horizontal and
> vertical resolution.
> 
> If the test patch had been too small, all the artefacts would not have
> been evident. The test patches were one inch square at 360 ppi.
> 
> Best,
> Helen 


This page describes some test methods that may be more 
suitable for photographic images:

http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/quality/


Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Thanks everyone for your reponses!  Let's see if I understand this 
correctly.  Qimage supposely does a better job of up and down resizing 
than Photoshop, and it also supposedly does a better job of output 
sharpening.  Even if we assume that's true, I'm not sure that I should 
use it for my files from 4x5 negatives.  First, these are saved in PSB 
format, because they're huge, and I'm not sure that Qimage reads them. 
Second, at 720ppi, my images are 12x15, which fit nicely on 13x19" 
paper. Hence, in order to send 720 ppi to the printer, I don't have to 
do any up or down sizing.  Third, I like the flexibility of using TLR 
sharpening in Photoshop.  Fourth, I"m unclear about using Epson's ABW 
mode on my R2400 with Qimage.  Am I missing something here?

Peter De Smidt wrote:

> Thanks everyone for your reponses!  Let's see if I understand this 
> correctly.  Qimage supposely does a better job of up and down resizing 
> than Photoshop, and it also supposedly does a better job of output 
> sharpening.  Even if we assume that's true, I'm not sure that I should 
> use it for my files from 4x5 negatives. 

The difference in quality has been more significant in the 
past. CS/2 got better tools meanwhile. But Qimage improved too.

> First, these are saved in PSB 
> format, because they're huge, and I'm not sure that Qimage reads them. 

A valid point. Qimage isn't always capable in translating PSB. 
Alpha layers etc.

> Second, at 720ppi, my images are 12x15, which fit nicely on 13x19" 
> paper. Hence, in order to send 720 ppi to the printer, I don't have to 
> do any up or down sizing. 

Correct.

> Third, I like the flexibility of using TLR 
> sharpening in Photoshop.  Fourth, I"m unclear about using Epson's ABW 
> mode on my R2400 with Qimage.  Am I missing something here?

The last will not be a problem as ABW can cope with both 
monochrome RGB and Greyscale and QTR's profiles should work on 
Qimage if you are using them. Roy and Mike have cooperated 
again on that as far as I know.
And colour management on Qimage has been identical in results 
to Photoshop  in my experience.

I think you will be fine with the software you are already 
using. My reference to Qimage information was to sketch the 
reason that feeding 720 PPI isn't always resulting in the best 
quality.

Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Following this thread, I looked up the resolution of of the R2400 on 
the Epson site. It quoted 'Up to 5760 x 1440 optimised dpi on suitable 
media using RPM (Resolution Performance Management)'.
So what is the maximum dpi for this printer, when looking to achieve 
maximum sharpness in print out

> From: john794552
>
> Following this thread, I looked up the resolution of of the R2400 on
> the Epson site. It quoted 'Up to 5760 x 1440 optimised dpi on suitable
> media using RPM (Resolution Performance Management)'.
> So what is the maximum dpi for this printer, when looking to achieve
> maximum sharpness in print out

720 pixels per inch. The dot pitch and the pixel pitch are two different
things.

However, even at 5760x1440, which is 8x2 dots per pixel, there's still a lot
of dither noise that spills over into adjacent pixels, which means you won't
really see much more sharpness at 720 than at, say, 360, except for really
high contrast edges like text.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Ernst,

The tests you give the link to are subtly different from the ones I
did because they involve sending a file to the printer at only one ppi
value (720 ppi, according to the instructions). As such they do not
represent true comparisons between, say, 360 ppi and 720 ppi. To
assess 360 ppi you have to send a true 360 ppi file to the printer,
not a 720 ppi file with pseudo-360 ppi data in it. 

By sending checkerboard and lines to the printer at different ppi
values you can see how the driver maps pixels to the matrix produced
by the print heads. 

Best,
Helen
 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

>
> Helen Bach wrote:
> > I printed a checkerboard of one pixel squares and sets of lines one
> > pixel wide at 1440, 720, 360, 300 and 288 ppi using the Epson driver
> > and OPM on two different 2200s loaded with glossy paper.
> > 
> > With the Epson driver at the 1440 and 2880 dpi settings the only print
> > that was free of artefacts was the one made at 288 ppi. The 360 ppi
> > was close, and the definition of the lines was very good. At higher
> > ppi the checkerboard and lines were not well defined.
> > 
> > With OPM the 360 ppi print had the fewest artefacts, but none were
> > artefact-free. Moire-like lines were evident on all the prints, but
> > least noticeable at 360 ppi. The definition was also best at 360 ppi.
> > At higher ppi the checkerboard was not properly defined. 
> > 
> > There appears to be a difference between the 'native' horizontal and
> > vertical resolution.
> > 
> > If the test patch had been too small, all the artefacts would not have
> > been evident. The test patches were one inch square at 360 ppi.
> > 
> > Best,
> > Helen 
> 
> 
> This page describes some test methods that may be more 
> suitable for photographic images:
> 
> http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/quality/
> 
> 
> Ernst
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )
>

Helen Bach wrote:
> Ernst,
> 
> The tests you give the link to are subtly different from the ones I
> did because they involve sending a file to the printer at only one ppi
> value (720 ppi, according to the instructions). As such they do not
> represent true comparisons between, say, 360 ppi and 720 ppi. To
> assess 360 ppi you have to send a true 360 ppi file to the printer,
> not a 720 ppi file with pseudo-360 ppi data in it. 
> 
> By sending checkerboard and lines to the printer at different ppi
> values you can see how the driver maps pixels to the matrix produced
> by the print heads. 
> 
> Best,
> Helen

Helen,

The 1440 and 2880 dpi printer resolutions you had in your test 
message should result in 720 PPI native resolution on your 
2200. (I have no desire to load the printer driver and check 
that with Qimage's preview window). If so the 360 PPI file you 
send to the printer gets a 360>720 upscaling in the driver. I 
think it is better to start with 720 PPI right away then, 
instead of creating a pseudo 720 PPI test image with 2x lines 
and squares if the extrapolation does nearest neighbour (not 
bad in this case).

That doesn't say you will see 720 PPI or even 360 PPI quality 
on the paper. It could be an odd number ranging from say 187 
to 411 PPI if the test shows such in between steps. It doesn't 
tell you the native resolution but the actual print resolution 
for the combination of printer driver settings and the paper 
used. Yet we have to use the 720 PPI native resolution to get 
there. Gloss papers give better results, matte less. 
Theoretically, extrapolation software without any flaws would 
allow you to use actual print quality PPI as input and the 
rest could be hidden from the user and result in best quality 
possible. But who does all the quality checks on all the 
papers + settings to feed the printer the most economic PPI 
file for each job ? Better use an application then that makes 
the best of the file you already have. Too much data is often 
more a problem in spooling etc than not enough, the last often 
shows more quality than expected.

Ernst
                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john794552" 
<jwillyfontana@...> wrote:
>
> Following this thread, I looked up the resolution of of the R2400 on 
> the Epson site. It quoted 'Up to 5760 x 1440 optimised dpi on 
suitable 
> media using RPM (Resolution Performance Management)'.
> So what is the maximum dpi for this printer, when looking to achieve 
> maximum sharpness in print out
>


With regard to sharpness, Doesn't piezography inksets and software add 
in correct for this by having less spill over?, I think they are 
around 2 weeks away from having  inks for the 2400.

Art

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
 
> I think it is better to start with 720 PPI right away then, 
> instead of creating a pseudo 720 PPI test image with 2x lines 
> and squares if the extrapolation does nearest neighbour (not 
> bad in this case).

Ernst,

I must have explained it badly, because that is exactly my point.
The resolution tests you gave a link to did not print a true 360 ppi
file. They printed a 720 ppi file with psuedo-360 ppi images in it -
which is not a true representation of a 360 ppi file.

My tests were with files at true ppi values, no resampling, no
interpolation. I'm testing the match between the file and the printed
image. The best match between the file and the image occurred when a
288 ppi file was sent to the Epson driver and at 360 ppi with OPM.
That's not necessarily the best file resolution to use, it's just a
test for me to try to understand what the two drivers are doing.

If 720 ppi is the native resolution of a 2200, as Epson say, how many
dots are there per pixel? How many dot sizes? How many possible
colours? Why does a 720 ppi file get altered - ie why isn't one file
pixel mapped exactly to one printer pixel? These are the questions I'm
asking myself, not rhetorical questions.

Best,
Helen

For the 2200.
In 1440 mode, there are 720x1440 dots, and three sizes of dots are
available.
In 2880 mode, there are 1440x2880 dots, and only the smallest dot size
available.
I believe OPM uses 1440; it does for the R200.

The dots the printer puts out are “screened” from the image data.  Google
halftone and stochastic screening for info.

The link Ernst provided was for print evaluation of photographic images;
more appropriate than checkerboards, give it a try.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Helen Bach
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 1:41 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] File Resolution

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

> I think it is better to start with 720 PPI right away then,
> instead of creating a pseudo 720 PPI test image with 2x lines
> and squares if the extrapolation does nearest neighbour (not
> bad in this case).

Ernst,

I must have explained it badly, because that is exactly my point.
The resolution tests you gave a link to did not print a true 360 ppi
file. They printed a 720 ppi file with psuedo-360 ppi images in it -
which is not a true representation of a 360 ppi file.

My tests were with files at true ppi values, no resampling, no
interpolation. I'm testing the match between the file and the printed
image. The best match between the file and the image occurred when a
288 ppi file was sent to the Epson driver and at 360 ppi with OPM.
That's not necessarily the best file resolution to use, it's just a
test for me to try to understand what the two drivers are doing.

If 720 ppi is the native resolution of a 2200, as Epson say, how many
dots are there per pixel? How many dot sizes? How many possible
colours? Why does a 720 ppi file get altered - ie why isn't one file
pixel mapped exactly to one printer pixel? These are the questions I'm
asking myself, not rhetorical questions.

Best,
Helen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Helen Bach wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
> <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>  
>> I think it is better to start with 720 PPI right away then, 
>> instead of creating a pseudo 720 PPI test image with 2x lines 
>> and squares if the extrapolation does nearest neighbour (not 
>> bad in this case).
> 
> Ernst,
> 
> I must have explained it badly, because that is exactly my point.
> The resolution tests you gave a link to did not print a true 360 ppi
> file. They printed a 720 ppi file with psuedo-360 ppi images in it -
> which is not a true representation of a 360 ppi file.
> 
> My tests were with files at true ppi values, no resampling, no
> interpolation. I'm testing the match between the file and the printed
> image. The best match between the file and the image occurred when a
> 288 ppi file was sent to the Epson driver and at 360 ppi with OPM.
> That's not necessarily the best file resolution to use, it's just a
> test for me to try to understand what the two drivers are doing.
> 
> If 720 ppi is the native resolution of a 2200, as Epson say, how many
> dots are there per pixel? How many dot sizes? How many possible
> colours? Why does a 720 ppi file get altered - ie why isn't one file
> pixel mapped exactly to one printer pixel? These are the questions I'm
> asking myself, not rhetorical questions.
> 
> Best,
> Helen  

Helen,

Sorry, did you print several checkerboards with different PPI 
files? Your first message isn't clear about that. If you did 
send a 720 PPI file with 720 detail, 360 detail and 180 detail 
as well then no extrapolation in the driver should happen. 
Then it doesn't matter that the 360 PPI target  in it is a two 
(720) pixel size fake one.  A 1440 PPI or 360 PPI file will 
get an unknown extrapolation and all the targets get 
extrapolation to 720 PPI. So in my opinion the Qimage page has 
the right one.

The best answers on the last questions you will get in the 
Gimp/Guten print sources and discussions. Usually the droplet 
size variation numbers are reduced the higher the dpi 
resolution chosen. Where 720 and 360 dpi may have 3 droplet 
sizes the 1440 and the 2880 may have just two or one. The 
highest resolution quoted as 2880 dpi could well be a 1440 dpi 
that is shifted half a dot pitch on the next line so not a 
true 2880 dpi. Happened with the 1440 dpi setting of older 
models. So computing 256 shades back to matrix positions, 
droplet sizes, diluted inks cmk, amount of weaving, may not be 
that easy. Another obscurity is the higher bleed of smaller 
droplets with the larger circumference/area ratio compared to 
that of the larger dots. In linearising and/or profiling we 
control that bleed on 4/6 channels, that either means less 
droplets are used or a smaller droplet is used when we want to 
reduce dotgain. There has to be some slack in the total to 
deal with that all.

On a single channel I doubt the 256 shades of 8 bit are 
actually available in the print. For example on the black and 
yellow of a 6 color printer. The first isn't used on the full 
range though, the yellow not a dominant color in definition. 
All is improving though.

Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Hi.
  How do you use Qimage with Photoshot.
  Firts you working in Photoshot and then print in Qimage ??
  Thank you.

		
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail  makes sharing a breeze. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yoelis,

Save your images as 8 bit Tif, JPG or PSD files.  Qimage doesn't work 
with PDF or 16 bit images.  

Then open Qimage as a separate application.  Qimage has a file 
browser similar to Photoshop.  Select the images you want and make 
adjustments as desired (see Qimage documentation).  Set up your color 
management and printer for the correct settings and print.  Very easy 
to use and convenient.  I believe it is a Windows Only program.

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Yoelis Diaz 
<yoelisd2003@...> wrote:

>
> Hi.
>   How do you use Qimage with Photoshot.
>   Firts you working in Photoshot and then print in Qimage ??
>   Thank you.

Ok if I understand Qimage is better for printing than photoshop is corret. ??
  Thank you.

Louis Dina <lbdina@...> wrote:
  Yoelis,

Save your images as 8 bit Tif, JPG or PSD files.  Qimage doesn't work 
with PDF or 16 bit images.  

Then open Qimage as a separate application.  Qimage has a file 
browser similar to Photoshop.  Select the images you want and make 
adjustments as desired (see Qimage documentation).  Set up your color 
management and printer for the correct settings and print.  Very easy 
to use and convenient.  I believe it is a Windows Only program.

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Yoelis Diaz 
<yoelisd2003@...> wrote:
>
> Hi.
>   How do you use Qimage with Photoshot.
>   Firts you working in Photoshot and then print in Qimage ??
>   Thank you.






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Qimage provides some nice features for layout, cropping, images 
conversion, etc.  It also has built in sharpening designed to work 
with your printer's native resolution, and different sharpening 
algorithms.  I find it gives excellent output.  

Here's a link to their site so you can check it out for yourself.  It 
is only $50US and includes lifetime upgrades.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Yoelis Diaz 
<yoelisd2003@...> wrote:
>
> Ok if I understand Qimage is better for printing than photoshop is 
corret. ??
>   Thank you.
> 
> Louis Dina <lbdina@...> wrote:
>   Yoelis,
> 
> Save your images as 8 bit Tif, JPG or PSD files.  Qimage doesn't 
work 
> with PDF or 16 bit images.  
> 
> Then open Qimage as a separate application.  Qimage has a file 
> browser similar to Photoshop.  Select the images you want and make 
> adjustments as desired (see Qimage documentation).  Set up your 
color 
> management and printer for the correct settings and print.  Very 
easy 
> to use and convenient.  I believe it is a Windows Only program.
> 
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Yoelis Diaz 
> <yoelisd2003@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi.
> >   How do you use Qimage with Photoshot.
> >   Firts you working in Photoshot and then print in Qimage ??
> >   Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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> 
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>

Very easy 
> to use and convenient.   

Depends on how you personally think and what you need to accomplish. 

Certain aspects of Qimage are superb, others are awkward. To ME it
seems much less "intuitive" than Photoshop (but some people think
Photoshop is less intuitive...it's personal/practice). 

Until Photoshop CS2, Qimage offered better interpolation for large
prints, but CS2's ahead now. CS2's sharpening tools seem more subtle.

For high production (photo lab) printing, Qimage is superior. But I
don't think you'll find many fine art printers relying on it except
for production printing.  Qimage is better than Photoshop for B&W,
though not even close to QTRgui (Quadtone). IMO IMO IMO

Yes I was there and I download the demo. And i make the test (the incest). I print in photoshop Cs2 and Qimage with my epson 2400.In Qimage was a little better than photoshop. For example my camera has 8 mp when. I open in photoshop the picture has 314 pixel/inch and 10.395 x 7.796 inch. If i want to print this picture 13x19 is better to print with Qimage.??
  Thank you.
  Yoelis.
Louis Dina <lbdina@...> wrote:
  Qimage provides some nice features for layout, cropping, images 
conversion, etc.  It also has built in sharpening designed to work 
with your printer's native resolution, and different sharpening 
algorithms.  I find it gives excellent output.  

Here's a link to their site so you can check it out for yourself.  It 
is only $50US and includes lifetime upgrades.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Yoelis Diaz 
<yoelisd2003@...> wrote:
>
> Ok if I understand Qimage is better for printing than photoshop is 
corret. ??
>   Thank you.
> 
> Louis Dina <lbdina@...> wrote:
>   Yoelis,
> 
> Save your images as 8 bit Tif, JPG or PSD files.  Qimage doesn't 
work 
> with PDF or 16 bit images.  
> 
> Then open Qimage as a separate application.  Qimage has a file 
> browser similar to Photoshop.  Select the images you want and make 
> adjustments as desired (see Qimage documentation).  Set up your 
color 
> management and printer for the correct settings and print.  Very 
easy 
> to use and convenient.  I believe it is a Windows Only program.
> 
> Lou
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Yoelis Diaz 
> <yoelisd2003@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi.
> >   How do you use Qimage with Photoshot.
> >   Firts you working in Photoshot and then print in Qimage ??
> >   Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
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> 
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B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
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and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
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ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   SPONSORED LINKS 
>         Digital wedding photography   Learn digital photography   
Digital photography college     Digital photography   Digital 
photography web site   Digital photography course 
>     
> ---------------------------------
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> 
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>     Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
>     
>     To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> ---------------------------------
>   
> 
> 
> 
>             
> ---------------------------------
> Brings words and photos together (easily) with
>  PhotoMail  - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No I dont want this sofware (Qimage) to make production print. I want to make exclusive photo in B/W and color too. But the quality is bery inportant for me, and becouse I 'm not proffesional like you I looking for better and easy sofware to print.
  Thank you.
  Yoelis.

djon43 <djon43@...> wrote:
     Very easy 
> to use and convenient.   

Depends on how you personally think and what you need to accomplish. 

Certain aspects of Qimage are superb, others are awkward. To ME it
seems much less "intuitive" than Photoshop (but some people think
Photoshop is less intuitive...it's personal/practice). 

Until Photoshop CS2, Qimage offered better interpolation for large
prints, but CS2's ahead now. CS2's sharpening tools seem more subtle.

For high production (photo lab) printing, Qimage is superior. But I
don't think you'll find many fine art printers relying on it except
for production printing.  Qimage is better than Photoshop for B&W,
though not even close to QTRgui (Quadtone). IMO IMO IMO






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have MIS K4 inks in an R2400, and this works very well for color.  I 
recently bought a ColorVision PrintFix Pro Suite, and I'll use Paul's 
method of making an icc file for printing through ABW mode soon.  Before 
going through this, though, I thought I'd make some quick prints just to 
get an idea of how they'd  look on Silver Rag.  The files are from scan 
of 35mm HIE.  As a result, there's a lot of grain (which I don't mind 
for these images.) When I print them, either through a color profile as 
RGB files, or through ABW, I get vertical banding.  Basically, there are 
dark strips running down the print.  They are about 1/8th inch wide and 
they are spaced about 1/8th inch apart.  I send 480 dpi files to the 
printer, and I tried a couple of different images.  Any ideas?

Hello Peter,

>When I print them, either through a color profile as RGB files, or 
>through ABW, I get vertical banding.  Basically, there are dark 
>strips running down the print.  They are about 1/8th inch wide and 
>they are spaced about 1/8th inch apart.  I send 480 dpi files to the 
>printer, and I tried a couple of different images.  Any ideas?

I've had a similar problem twice in the past.  Both times were cured
by changing the image resolution.   It's worth a try.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I have been sent some samples as well and thought I would toss in a couple 
answers.
1. It is 100% cotton
2. It works with PK. I have printed BW and color with it and like the 
results a lot.
3. I use Image Print and they already have profiles for it.
4. GSM is 300
5. There ARE no data (the word is plural), of which I'm aware, about its 
longevity. It claims to be archival and, from the feel and look of it, I bet 
it is but I'm no expert. I just print on the stuff.
 I bet it is but I don't pretend any great expert so I defer to others on 
this one.
6. Can't answer the ink question as I use the old 4000.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "wwodets" <odets@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 11:30 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing


Eleanor-

This, of course, sounds like the panacea we've (all?) been waiting
for.  So, I have a few questions:

The paper is intended for PK?
Is the surface (coating) a thin RC type layer, or is it a coating?
The base is pure cotton?
Do you know the GSM?
You are using K3 inks in the 24 and 78?
Is there any data (or feelings) about the longevity of this
paper/coating/ink combination?

Thanks,
Walt




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eleanor Brown"
<elliebrown@a...> wrote:
>
> Over this past weekend I have been working with beta samples of
Crane's
> new paper Museo Silver Rag. I formerly printed black and white and
color in
> my darkroom but five years ago went completely digital. I have been
looking
> for a paper to mimic my old silver darkroom papers but no no avail.
Now my
> searching is over. I am thrilled at the prints I'm making on this
new
> Silver Rag paper, both in black and white and color. The paper
could pass
> for a silver gelatin paper, is a nice weight, and a soft white base
color
> and lays flat. The surface--smooth-- has a slight subtle elegant
texture
> that shows through the coating--this texture looks  like air dried
glossy silver gelatin paper
> textures (not like epson luster paper).  When you hold the paper in
your hand, it also feels
> like a silver gelatin paper.
>
> I've printed on my 7800 printer using Imageprint in both standard
three
> black mode and Phatte black mode. Have also printed on my 2400
using the
> epson driver, advanced black and white mode. All prints are superb
with deep deep blacks
> with good separation in dark shadow areas. The
> paper surface is tough--resistant to scratching and highly water
resistant
> after the inks have had a chance to completely dry. (I soaked a
print in
> water until saturated, with no ink run off, even when rubbed with a
paper
> towel). I look forward to using this new paper for most of my
printing in
> the future. Eleanor
>






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Beats me. I leave it to others who make those determinations to let us know. 
I only know it looks dark black where I think it ought to and not where it 
shouldn't. How's that for scientific? They sent me The Idiot's Guide to 
Museo Silver Rag to get another perspective.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing


What dMax?

That's an amazing talent which will no doubt be useful when the day comes 
that there is a market for black toilet paper. What I meant, and what should 
easily be understood from my post, is that I do not possess the skill to 
make that measurement nor do I concern myself much with attempting to do so 
as I trust my eyes to tell me and I leave it to the others here who are 
skilled at making that measurement to eventually let the rest of the world 
know what it is. I realize that Dmax is God and if someone wants to stop by 
and show me how to measure it, then I will jump right in. Thanks for your 
response.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing


I can get dark black where I want it on a piece of toilet paper with a felt
pen.

You can not deny that a key component of any paper evaluation is the dynamic
range it provides for you the user to deploy however you want.


> From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:17:30 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Crane Museo Silver Rag/beta testing
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen M Martin"
> <steve@s...> wrote:
>>
>> I only know it looks dark black where I think it ought to and not
> where it
>> shouldn't. How's that for scientific?
>
>
>
> Isn't that ultimately what it's about?




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