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Digital Enlarger FYI

Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-29 by Mark Savoia

My review:

Well I just received back my black and white fiber base print done on 
the DeVere digital enlarger. The tones look close to acceptable but 
there is a noticeable "grid" pattern on it. This is more evident in the 
16"x20" then the 11"x14", but it is surely there. This print was made 
in the UK by James Boyce of Odyssey Sales. He claims he is a technician 
and not a full time black and white printer, but I feel that he should 
have then seen this issue with the "grid". I would like to give him 
some slack but this test was to "sell me" on purchasing their product.

My conclusion is: This enlarger is not capable of large prints, unlike 
a certain lab in western US has claimed. I have had my customers try 
them (the lab in western US) and have all had the same results, they 
were just not happy with the quality.

For $35,000US I would think this enlarger would kick ass. I guess not.

Mark
Connecticut Photographics
http://www.ctphoto.com

Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by Tyler Boley

This is interesting, it seems an odd option considering the other
kinds of digital output these days. I'm still wondering when a lighjet
type exposure on good fiber B&W papers is going to happen. It seems
for now, exposure and processing are all self contained with Lightjet
so RC is necessary. Don't see why it couldn't be separated.
But I can see why you'd be interested in checking it out, too bad
about the result.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> My review:
> 
> Well I just received back my black and white fiber base print done on 
> the DeVere digital enlarger. The tones look close to acceptable but 
> there is a noticeable "grid" pattern on it. This is more evident in the 
> 16"x20" then the 11"x14", but it is surely there. This print was made 
> in the UK by James Boyce of Odyssey Sales. He claims he is a technician 
> and not a full time black and white printer, but I feel that he should 
> have then seen this issue with the "grid". I would like to give him 
> some slack but this test was to "sell me" on purchasing their product.
> 
> My conclusion is: This enlarger is not capable of large prints, unlike 
> a certain lab in western US has claimed. I have had my customers try 
> them (the lab in western US) and have all had the same results, they 
> were just not happy with the quality.
> 
> For $35,000US I would think this enlarger would kick ass. I guess not.
> 
> Mark
> Connecticut Photographics
> http://www.ctphoto.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by Roger Howard

On Nov 29, 2004, at 4:19 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

>
>
> This is interesting, it seems an odd option considering the other
> kinds of digital output these days. I'm still wondering when a lighjet
> type exposure on good fiber B&W papers is going to happen. It seems
> for now, exposure and processing are all self contained with Lightjet
> so RC is necessary. Don't see why it couldn't be separated.
> But I can see why you'd be interested in checking it out, too bad
> about the result.

Actually, one of our photo/imaging departments here was looking at this 
exact device - the main reason being an enlarger is a very quick way to 
crank out prints compared to an inkjet. I'm not a darkroom guy so I'm 
more comfortable with inkjets, but for 8x10 prints en masse this kind 
of setup seems very desirable, especially when you already have an 
environment/staff with literally hundreds of years of experience in the 
darkroom...

I'm surprised at the results the OP got... the cost of these things is 
pretty high - I was told around $30,000 or so - and they claim to have 
3200x2400 resolution (though I'm a bit skeptical - it seems an odd 
aspect ratio to use unless you're just using four 1600x1200 panels, or 
interpolating or otherwise enhancing the rez). If it has true 3200x2400 
resolution it should be able to deliver nice prints - though I suppose 
without some kind of blurring/antialiasing above a certain size I guess 
you're bound to see the LCD's grid (unless you defocus). Interested in 
any more details on this process.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by Tim Atherton

> > This is interesting, it seems an odd option considering the other
> > kinds of digital output these days. I'm still wondering when a lighjet
> > type exposure on good fiber B&W papers is going to happen. It seems
> > for now, exposure and processing are all self contained with Lightjet
> > so RC is necessary. Don't see why it couldn't be separated.
> > But I can see why you'd be interested in checking it out, too bad
> > about the result.

I've got to try them out to see if it's any good - there is a place in
Toronto doing Lightjet onto FB B&W paper and Ilfochrome "paper" as well I
think

Not cheap, but if it looks good, just the thing for those big 4' or 5'
prints for my next show...


tim a

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by Hogarth Hughes

I'd love to hear about it if you find a vendor of lighjet onto fiber B&W 
paper.

This also will bring up the question of display - how do you mount and 
show a print that big? You can't easily do it in a conventional frame 
with overmatting, because most matte board is just 40x60 inches (biggest 
I've seen is just 4x8 feet). So, if you can get it, what will you do 
with it? Aluminum plates maybe?
--
Hogarth Hughes


Tim Atherton wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> > > This is interesting, it seems an odd option considering the other
> > > kinds of digital output these days. I'm still wondering when a lighjet
> > > type exposure on good fiber B&W papers is going to happen. It seems
> > > for now, exposure and processing are all self contained with Lightjet
> > > so RC is necessary. Don't see why it couldn't be separated.
> > > But I can see why you'd be interested in checking it out, too bad
> > > about the result.
>
> I've got to try them out to see if it's any good - there is a place in
> Toronto doing Lightjet onto FB B&W paper and Ilfochrome "paper" as well I
> think
>
> Not cheap, but if it looks good, just the thing for those big 4' or 5'
> prints for my next show...
>
>
> tim a
>
>
>
>

Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by bez_ledu

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia 
<mark@c...> wrote:
> My review:
> 
> Well I just received back my black and white fiber base print done 
on 
> the DeVere digital enlarger. The tones look close to acceptable but 
> there is a noticeable "grid" pattern on it. This is more evident in 
the 
> 16"x20" then the 11"x14", but it is surely there. This print was 
made 
> in the UK by James Boyce of Odyssey Sales. He claims he is a 
technician 
> and not a full time black and white printer, but I feel that he 
should 
> have then seen this issue with the "grid". I would like to give him 
> some slack but this test was to "sell me" on purchasing their 
product.
> 
> My conclusion is: This enlarger is not capable of large prints, 
unlike 
> a certain lab in western US has claimed. I have had my customers 
try 
> them (the lab in western US) and have all had the same results, 
they 
> were just not happy with the quality.
> 
> For $35,000US I would think this enlarger would kick ass. I guess 
not.
> 
> Mark
> Connecticut Photographics
> http://www.ctphoto.com

Sorry folks this is first post here so I dont know if I'm doing this 
correctly...I had prints done (11x14) on the Devere digital enlarger 
from scans of a 6x6 neg and photoshopped (by me) the print was made 
on Agfa 111 and it came out just fine without the grid patterns being 
discussed...The tech pushed the enlarger button...and I did the wet 
work...I would expect there would be some bugsin the system yet...but 
my set up was with an LED digital unit and not the LCD/CCD unit that 
first came out with the 504DS...

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by Mark Savoia

Look at them with a magnifying glass. On 11x14 they may not show much 
but on a 16x20 they jump right at you. This was done on the latest 
version of the enlarger head.
Mark

On Nov 30, 2004, at 2:19 AM, bez_ledu wrote:

>
>  Sorry folks this is first post here so I dont know if I'm doing this
>  correctly...I had prints done (11x14) on the Devere digital enlarger
>  from scans of a 6x6 neg and photoshopped (by me) the print was made
>  on Agfa 111 and it came out just fine without the grid patterns being
>  discussed...The tech pushed the enlarger button...and I did the wet
>  work...I would expect there would be some bugsin the system yet...but
>  my set up was with an LED digital unit and not the LCD/CCD unit that
>  first came out with the 504DS...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by Mark Savoia

What is the name of the place in Toronto please?
Mark

On Nov 29, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Tim Atherton wrote:

>  I've got to try them out to see if it's any good - there is a place in
>  Toronto doing Lightjet onto FB B&W paper and Ilfochrome "paper" as 
> well I
>  think
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by gulstenek

I think it's elevatordigital.ca.  They say: "Using the Durst Lambda as 
the exposing device ... The prints are finished in the same manner as 
traditional black & white fibre prints. Processed by hand, these 
digital prints meet all standards of print conservation. Elevator has 
been using this technology to produce digital cibachrome prints for 
most of the last year."

--
Kevin
> What is the name of the place in Toronto please?
> Mark
> 
> On Nov 29, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Tim Atherton wrote:
> 
> >  I've got to try them out to see if it's any good - there is a 
place in
> >  Toronto doing Lightjet onto FB B&W paper and Ilfochrome "paper" 
as 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > well I
> >  think
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by Mark Savoia

I am pretty sure the technology in a Lambda is very different then a 
LightJet. I think the Lambda is LCDs and the LightJet is laser.
Thanks for the info,
Mark

On Nov 30, 2004, at 10:20 AM, gulstenek wrote:

>
>  I think it's elevatordigital.ca.� They say: "Using the Durst Lambda as
>  the exposing device ... The prints are finished in the same manner as
>  traditional black & white fibre prints. Processed by hand, these
>  digital prints meet all standards of print conservation. Elevator has
>  been using this technology to produce digital cibachrome prints for
>  most of the last year."
>
>  --
>  Kevin
>  > What is the name of the place in Toronto please?
>  > Mark
>  >
>  > On Nov 29, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Tim Atherton wrote:
>  >
>  > >� I've got to try them out to see if it's any good - there is a
>  place in
>  > >� Toronto doing Lightjet onto FB B&W paper and Ilfochrome "paper"
>  as
>  > > well I
>  > >� think
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-11-30 by Tim Atherton

>
> I am pretty sure the technology in a Lambda is very different then a
> LightJet. I think the Lambda is LCDs and the LightJet is laser.
> Thanks for the info,
> Mark

Yes , you are right - it's a Lambda not a Lightjet printer - it's been a
while since I talked to them. As I recall they were doing quite a bit of big
exhibition work.

tim

Re: Digital Enlarger FYI - do you need fiber?

2004-11-30 by hill14701

If you need Fibre based papers, you are fairly limited in your digital output options.  The 
current generation of RC papers has tested to be as good as fiber - if both are archivally 
washed.  Between the two, you will need to make sure that your lab has adequate washing 
methods in place for that $75.00 11x14 digital enlargement.

I got over the RC vs Fibre thing a while ago.  Under glass, they both have a distinct yet 
harmonious look.  My digital prints made on a lustre surface have a beauty and depth that 
equals that of fibre.  With proper fixing and toning you can extend the life of any black 
and white traditonal print, and for an 11x14, I'd rather pay 8.79

Digital output onto real black and white papers is exciting if you have been trying to get 
your Epson to print completely without banding - or visible dither.  Most people still frown 
at the fact that the print you want to sell for $200 was made on a home printer.  Even if 
you highlight the details of carbon based printing and all the hard work you spent trying 
to linearize the print, they still see it as an inkjet.  I realize that many of you supplement 
your income with print sales, and many of you have stories of how you have made it with 
an inkjet - but the uneducated masses still don't think an inkjet is worthy of fine art 
status.  Please don't get mad at me and send ranting emails, I am just repeating what my 
clients tell me.

Don

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI - do you need fiber?

2004-11-30 by J Vee

Don, you are right about the inkjet label problem.  I have it even though I
use a Colorspan 11 color printer for my fine art prints.  No banding, and
absolutely wonderful blacks (either 4K or 11color).  To some degree I get
around this with always showing a 4¹ by 5¹ print drum scanned etc from
original 11² X 14² chrome.  Public does not associate this size and quality
print (and my others by association) with an inkjet printer.  Additionally,
I label them as ³microthermal² prints.  J Vee  (www.jvee.com)


On 11/30/04 10:59 AM, "hill14701" <hill14701@...> wrote:

> 
> Digital output onto real black and white papers is exciting if you have been
> trying to get 
> your Epson to print completely without banding - or visible dither.  Most
> people still frown
> at the fact that the print you want to sell for $200 was made on a home
> printer.  Even if
> you highlight the details of carbon based printing and all the hard work you
> spent trying 
> to linearize the print, they still see it as an inkjet.  I realize that many
> of you supplement
> your income with print sales, and many of you have stories of how you have
> made it with 
> an inkjet - but the uneducated masses still don't think an inkjet is worthy of
> fine art 
> status.  Please don't get mad at me and send ranting emails, I am just
> repeating what my
> clients tell me.
> 
> Don
> 
> 
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI - do you need fiber?

2004-11-30 by Mark Savoia

> If you need Fibre based papers, you are fairly limited in your digital 
> output options.  The
>  current generation of RC papers has tested to be as good as fiber - 
> if both are archivally
>  washed.  Between the two, you will need to make sure that your lab 
> has adequate washing
>  methods in place for that $75.00 11x14 digital enlargement.

I was questioning the digital enlarger route because I was thinking of 
getting one for my business. We have been printing fiber base black and 
white professionally for over 20 years, I am very aware of archival 
washing. BTW we only get $50.00 for an 11x14 (conventional) print.

> Digital output onto real black and white papers is exciting if you 
> have been trying to get
>  your Epson to print completely without banding - or visible dither.

We have no problem getting Epson prints (color and quad) with no 
banding and no visible dither pattern.

Mark

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Digital Enlarger FYI

2004-12-01 by Mark Savoia

Here is the response from the man who made my test prints, I e-mailed 
him with my comments:

	The �grid� you mention is created by the LCD panel we use to create 
the digital negative image in the enlarger. It is always there in the 
background, but as this is an enlarger, and magnification increases 
with larger print sizes, you tend to see it more on larger print sizes. 
We do not usually recommend b/w prints over 20x16 are made on our 
system because of this, although some users do, as their market will 
bear this quality quite happily.
	As you can see on the 11x14 I supplied, the pattern is much reduced, 
marginal enough to be comparable with inkjet dots at this size or 
smaller by most of our customers. At smaller print sizes it is 
invisible to the naked eye. To some of our black and white buyers, the 
superior contrast range attainable by real photo paper offered such an 
advantage over inkjet (along with considerable material cost and 
workflow time savings) that even at larger sizes our prints were 
preferable.

Hope this helps to explain. Please call or email if you have any 
further questions.

Regards,
James Boyce.


Well that settles it for me, not going to work.
Mark


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Mark Savoia

Excuse me for asking this, but I did the famous "Yahoo search" in the 
archives and came up with everything but the answer to this:

Isn't there a company out there that can take a pro digital camera and 
make it shoot black and white only?

I know it was brought up a while ago.
Thanks,
Mark

Re: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Hans VR

Mark Savoia wrote:

>Excuse me for asking this, but I did the famous "Yahoo search" in the 
>archives and came up with everything but the answer to this:
>
>Isn't there a company out there that can take a pro digital camera and 
>make it shoot black and white only?
>
>I know it was brought up a while ago.
>Thanks,
>Mark
>  
>
This one can : 
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/kodak-760m.shtml
--
Hans VR
www.vanrafelghem.com

Re: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Carl Schofield

This one does IR conversion, but I think they can also do just B&W:
http://www.irdigital.net/index.html
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Dec 13, 2004, at 11:34 AM, Mark Savoia wrote:

>
> Excuse me for asking this, but I did the famous "Yahoo search" in the
> archives and came up with everything but the answer to this:
>
> Isn't there a company out there that can take a pro digital camera and
> make it shoot black and white only?
>
> I know it was brought up a while ago.
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by The Wogster

Mark Savoia wrote:
> Excuse me for asking this, but I did the famous "Yahoo search" in the 
> archives and came up with everything but the answer to this:
> 
> Isn't there a company out there that can take a pro digital camera and 
> make it shoot black and white only?
> 

While there are, the result may not be what you want.  Typically digital 
cameras, use a technique similar to removing the color in PS. It's a 
linear process.  If you look at the response curve of B&W film, it's not 
linear, it often looks like an S, it better method, is to take the photo 
in colour, but think B&W, then later match the response curves to your 
favourite B&W film, then remove the color, you will get a more likeable 
result.

W

Re: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Steve Schaefer

> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why would you wont to do this. You
> would be giving up a lot of control not converting your RGB files in to BW
> with SP Channel Mixer.
> 
> 
> Excuse me for asking this, but I did the famous "Yahoo search" in the
> archives and came up with everything but the answer to this:
> 
> Isn't there a company out there that can take a pro digital camera and
> make it shoot black and white only?
> 
> I know it was brought up a while ago.
> Thanks,
> Mark
> 
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Mark Savoia

I have a client who is color blind and wants to shoot in b&w instead of 
converting in Photoshop, he is not getting satisfactory results since 
he can not determine correct tonal values from color to grayscale.
Mark

On Dec 13, 2004, at 12:44 PM, Steve Schaefer wrote:

> > Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why would you wont to do 
> this. You
>  > would be giving up a lot of control not converting your RGB files 
> in to BW
>  > with SP Channel Mixer.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...]
>
> This one does IR conversion, but I think they can also do just B&W:
> http://www.irdigital.net/index.html

No, that guy just removes the anti-alias and IR block filter. He normally
replaces it with an IR pass filter, but can also replace it with plain
glass. The Bayer filter is part of the chip itself, and isn't removed, so
it's still a color sensor.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Mark Savoia

That would work.
Thanks,
Mark

On Dec 13, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:

>  No, that guy just removes the anti-alias and IR block filter. He 
> normally
>  replaces it with an IR pass filter, but can also replace it with plain
>  glass. The Bayer filter is part of the chip itself, and isn't 
> removed, so
>  it's still a color sensor.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Carl Schofield

When I asked him about this he said that he also removes the bayer 
filter from the chip.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Dec 13, 2004, at 1:26 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:

>
>> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...]
>>
>> This one does IR conversion, but I think they can also do just B&W:
>> http://www.irdigital.net/index.html
>
> No, that guy just removes the anti-alias and IR block filter. He 
> normally
> replaces it with an IR pass filter, but can also replace it with plain
> glass. The Bayer filter is part of the chip itself, and isn't removed, 
> so
> it's still a color sensor.
>
> --
>
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...
>
>
>
>
>

QTR + Photo Rag

2004-12-13 by Tim Atherton

What settings are people (using the WIn GUI) finding work well with Photo
Rag?

I have found fairly simple settings that work nicely with the few other
matte/watercolour papers, but haven't hit on a paper curve and settings that
seem to work well for PhotoRag (which is normally about my favourite paper)


Thanks

tim a

Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Historic Photo Archive

The Kodak DCS 460M is a B&W only digital camera, 6.3 megapixel, it is a
Nikon N90S body and Kodak back, it is discontinued but you can buy on ebay
occasionally, if you mount the 55mm Micro Nikkor on it you will have just
about the sharpest combination that there is.

Tom Robinson

RE: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...]
>
> When I asked him about this he said that he also removes the bayer
> filter from the chip.

When did you ask him? I had a bunch of e-mails back and forth with him in
late August, and he said: "Removal of the RGB filter destroys the imager.  I
leave it and replace the AA/low pass filter with a number 87 filter." If
since then he's learned how to remove the Bayer filter, then I'd be very
interested.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by tvalleau

FWIW, and by way of saying "hi" to all, the Fuji S2 Pro offers a
pretty decent B&W mode. (altho RAW, with suitable manipulation, is
much more versatile...)

Cordially,

Tracy Valleau
http://www.tracyvalleau.com

Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-13 by tvalleau

the Fuji S2 Pro is one such camera...



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mark Savoia
<mark@c...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Excuse me for asking this, but I did the famous "Yahoo search" in the 
> archives and came up with everything but the answer to this:
> 
> Isn't there a company out there that can take a pro digital camera and 
> make it shoot black and white only?
> 
> I know it was brought up a while ago.
> Thanks,
> Mark

Re: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-14 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@m...]
> >
> > When I asked him about this he said that he also removes the bayer
> > filter from the chip.
> 
> When did you ask him? I had a bunch of e-mails back and forth with him in
> late August, and he said: "Removal of the RGB filter destroys the imager.  I
> leave it and replace the AA/low pass filter with a number 87 filter." If
> since then he's learned how to remove the Bayer filter, then I'd be very
> interested.

I've tinkered with a couple of procedures for removing Bayer filters. It's not easy. You can try to bleach them out with high intensity UV, without opening up the chip. Or you can try to disolve them away with solvents, which requires breeching the chip.

RE: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-14 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: koloshor [mailto:wiz@...]
>
> I've tinkered with a couple of procedures for removing Bayer
> filters. It's not easy. You can try to bleach them out with high
> intensity UV, without opening up the chip. Or you can try to
> disolve them away with solvents, which requires breeching the chip.

Isn't there glass passivation underneath the Bayer filter and microlenses?

Or how would you even know the answer to that? Look under a microscope? Read
patents?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-14 by Clayton Jones

Hello Mark,

>I have a client who is color blind and wants to shoot in b&w instead 
>of converting in Photoshop, he is not getting satisfactory results 
>since he can not determine correct tonal values from color to 
>grayscale.

I don't know if this will help your client, but I use a Canon Pro-1 (8
mp) and have it set to BW mode.  So the preview screen and the EVF
both show a BW image.  Because I shoot in RAW mode, while the captured
image looks BW, all the color info is still there, and if I want to I
can put it back in color mode when the RAW conversion is done.  I've
found that I have better control over the Color-to-BW conversion using
Channel Mixer, etc. when I start from the color version, so I usually
do this.  However, if your client wants to avoid the BW conversion,
the RAW file can be converted still in BW mode, and on the Pro-1 the
results are quite good.  

So this gives us the best of both worlds.  We can visualize and shoot
in BW, but have full control at the conversion stage.  I don't know if
other models/brands do this, but I suspect they do since RAW mode is
supposed to preserve all captured data.  I hope this helps.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-14 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: tvalleau [mailto:tracy@...]
>
> the Fuji S2 Pro is one such camera...

That's not a B&W camera.

Another possibility is the Sigma SD9 and SD10. They're color cameras, but
they're full RGB instead of a Bayer pattern. This means that you have the
full sharpness when you do a color to B&W conversion. Of course, it's only
three megapixels.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

[Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-14 by tvalleau

Oh, my gosh! I've had this S2 Pro for years now, and it does
color???!!!   :-)

Of course it's not... but it offers a B&W mode...

Cordially

Tracy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco"
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: tvalleau [mailto:tracy@d...]
> >
> > the Fuji S2 Pro is one such camera...
> 
> That's not a B&W camera.
> 
> Another possibility is the Sigma SD9 and SD10. They're color
cameras, but
> they're full RGB instead of a Bayer pattern. This means that you
have the
> full sharpness when you do a color to B&W conversion. Of course,
it's only
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> three megapixels.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-14 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: tvalleau [mailto:tracy@...]
>
> Oh, my gosh! I've had this S2 Pro for years now, and it does
> color???!!!   :-)
>
> Of course it's not... but it offers a B&W mode...

Lots of color cameras do. The original question, I think, was about the
possibility of a true B&W camera, that didn't sacrifice sharpness by using a
Bayer pattern filter for color. In most digital cameras, each pixel sensor
is either red, green or blue, and the raw converter interpolates to fill in
the other two colors for each pixel. The result isn't as sharp as a sensor
that has R+G+B sensors in each pixel, or for B&W a monochrome sensor in each
pixel.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

[Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-15 by tvalleau

Aha! I didn't get that out of the question. 

Not sure, however, that a -single- channel of a RAW image would be any
-less sharp- than the Foveon(sp?) leaving aside the limitation on the
range of tones imposed the whatever color filter/channel is selected...

How about using sub-pixel adjustments for aligning the channels, if
necessary?

Cordially, 


Tracy


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco"
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: tvalleau [mailto:tracy@d...]
> >
> > Oh, my gosh! I've had this S2 Pro for years now, and it does
> > color???!!!   :-)
> >
> > Of course it's not... but it offers a B&W mode...
> 
> Lots of color cameras do. The original question, I think, was about the
> possibility of a true B&W camera, that didn't sacrifice sharpness by
using a
> Bayer pattern filter for color. In most digital cameras, each pixel
sensor
> is either red, green or blue, and the raw converter interpolates to
fill in
> the other two colors for each pixel. The result isn't as sharp as a
sensor
> that has R+G+B sensors in each pixel, or for B&W a monochrome sensor
in each
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> pixel.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

InkJetMall backorders

2004-12-15 by Mark Savoia

Does anyone know how long InkJetMall's backorders on Piezo inks for 
large format are now? Has anyone received anything in the past few 
weeks?
Mark

[Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-15 by tynmansystems

I agree. I have never been overly convinced that a monochrome 6 
megapixil sensor would be noticably sharper than an RGB-bayer-pattern 
6 megapixil sensor. The interpolation that occurs for RGB sensors is 
performed to maintain color accuracy, and shouldn't have a 
significant effect on sharpness. I.e., the effect might be 
measurable, but I'll bet not visible.

...Ben

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tvalleau" 
<tracy@d...> wrote:
> Not sure, however, that a -single- channel of a RAW image would be 
any
> -less sharp- than the Foveon(sp?) leaving aside the limitation on 
the
> range of tones imposed the whatever color filter/channel is 
selected...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> How about using sub-pixel adjustments for aligning the channels, if
> necessary?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-15 by Kip Babington

One of the digital benefits that I appreciate with every image that I 
convert from color to B&W is the ability to apply a color "contrast 
filter" to adjust the relative gray tones in the image.  If you had a 
monochrome-only sensor, wouldn't you be in a film-like situation, where 
if you want to emphasize or minimize certain colors in the image you 
would have to apply the filter in front of the lens before capturing the 
image?

Cheers,
Kip

[Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-17 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tynmansystems" <tynmansystems@y...> wrote:
> 
> I agree. I have never been overly convinced that a monochrome 6 
> megapixil sensor would be noticably sharper than an RGB-bayer-pattern 
> 6 megapixil sensor. The interpolation that occurs for RGB sensors is 
> performed to maintain color accuracy, and shouldn't have a 
> significant effect on sharpness. I.e., the effect might be 
> measurable, but I'll bet not visible.

You'd lose that bet, for several reasons...

A monochrome camera can pretty much do without an anti-aliasing filter. Aliasing is nearly invisible in most monochrome captures. If you do use an AA filter, it can be at the horizontal or vertical pixel pitch, or even a little less.

In a color camera, the AA filter has to be at a minimum of the diagonal pixel pitch of the green pixels (40% greater than the horizontal or vertical) and can be up to twice the horizontal or vertical pitch (matching the red or blue vertical pitch to prevent color aliasing). If the camera is severely filtered (2x the H/V pitch) the image is going to be very soft compared to a 1x H/V (or less) monochrome camera.

If the camera is mildly filtered (1.4x the H/V pitch or less) unless the scene is very desaturated, so that all details read strongly in all channels, you get a great deal of color aliasing (moire). Once converted to monochrome, this manifests as strong luminance bands.

I've done quite a bit of experimentation with monochrome conversion algorithms (such as walking color regions), with IR filters (which cause a monochrome response in most CCDs), with actual monochrome sensors, and with attempts to bleech out the color filters on a color CCD. Monochrome sensors have a major sharpness advantage over patterned color sensors.

[Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-17 by tvalleau

well, I'd be interested in seeing that direct quote... since there is
no such thing as "sharpness information".

Green is the part of the spectrum to which the human eye, and the CCD
sensor, is the most sensitive. Therefore, the range from darkest to
lightest is largest in the numbers extracted from the voltage of the
green sensor.

A sensor is a sensor, and one color is not inherently more "sharp"
than another. Each sensor simply puts out an electrical current
related to how much light is hitting it. There is no "sharpness"
information.

(There are about 50% more green sensors than those filtered for red
and blue, once again to provide more luma information.)

Luma is just brightness. It has nothing to do with sharpness. ALL the
sensors are responding to luma, but each in only one portion of the
spectrum.

AntiAliasing is a "cure" to color issues, and has nothing (much) to do
with luma. The anti-aliasing filter may be physical (which can lend to
softness issues that can be severe, and easily discernable,  or it
calculated, which produces information depending on how well done the
algorythms are, and the layout of the sensors.)

The need for anti-aliasing comes from trying to deal with a
sensor-group which has two different colors meeting in a sharp line
across it. 

Thus, if you shoot camera RAW, and select one channel, (any channel)
you'll get perfectly sharp information,  since a pixel in is a pixel out.

True: the Foveon does not require color anti-aliasing, but that has
nothing to do with single pixel sharpness.

However, all that said, simply take a RAW camera image (say 3024 x
2024, as it comes from the S2 pro) and select split channels in Photoshop.

You'll get three images with different ranges of gray tones, depending
on the range implicit in the color filter. Each image will be some
range of "black and white" and each image will be exactly 3024 x 2024,
and contain just over 6 million pixels... not 1.5 million. 

I have no idea what "real sharpness" is, but, in terms of raw pixels,
and raw data, from a Camera RAW file,  the 6 megapixel image IS twice
as dense as the 3, and thus provides twice the information to deal
with, and has, hence twice the resolution.

Take a camera RAW of 6 megs, and blend the three layers to your liking
for full tonal range, and you'll have a perfectly sharp 6 meg photo.

Take the color information out of a 3.5 meg photo, blend the results,
 and you'll still have  3.5 megs of resolution.

Remember, we're talking B&W here, not color, which is what
anti-aliasing is used for...

And it is impossible for there to be such a thing as an "interpolated'
RAW file: either it is RAW info, or it is interpolated info, but it
cannot be both, by definition. RAW is what the CCD photo sensors put
out: period. (I understand the confusion, the tyranny of words, that
can arise, since the Foveon only puts out a "raw" file, but to keep
the terminology correct, once that file is interpolated, it is no
longer "raw" in the sense normally used when speaking of digital
camera RAW files.

Yes, the Foveon is great, particularly for color. Excellent stuff. But
there is a trade-off on sheer resolution vs the lack of need for
anti-aliasing. Bottom line, for color, is how you like the result.
It's the photo, stupid!  :-)

 But for B&W, if using RAW files, then there is no anti-aliasing, and
no matter how you slice the pie, 3.5 megs is less information than 6.1.

Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-17 by Seth Rossman

But, you'd still need the IR filter (hot mirror they used to call 
it; probably named by the same shmo that invented "prosumer."

So... a filter is a filter.

The sharpness difference would still be akin to those that want to 
print at 5760, then use a 10X loupe to compare it to a 2880 and 
scream "it's sharper."  

And, who'd buy it.  The minimal production would cost a fortune.

Seth

> 
> A monochrome camera can pretty much do without an anti-aliasing 
filter. Aliasing is nearly invisible in most monochrome captures. If 
you do use an AA filter, it can be at the horizontal or vertical 
pixel pitch, or even a little less.
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-17 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: tvalleau [mailto:tracy@...]
>
> AntiAliasing is a "cure" to color issues, and has nothing (much) to do
> with luma. The anti-aliasing filter may be physical (which can lend to
> softness issues that can be severe, and easily discernable,  or it
> calculated, which produces information depending on how well done the
> algorythms are, and the layout of the sensors.)
>
> The need for anti-aliasing comes from trying to deal with a
> sensor-group which has two different colors meeting in a sharp line
> across it.

Anti-aliasing most certainly does apply to luma. A monochrome sensor, or
true co-located RGB sensor like the Foveon chip, still needs anti-aliasing,
just at a higher spatial frequency than a Bayer chip. It's certainly more
important for a Bayer chip, because color aliasing is uglier than simple
luma aliasing, but you most definitely can get aliasing (moire) in
monochrome images. The Sigma camera doesn't include an anti-alias filter,
which makes its images extremely sharp, but also produces jaggies and moire
on some images.

Also, anti-aliasing _must_ be done with a diffuser over the sensor, and
can't be done after the fact through calculation. Once the image is
spatially sampled by the sensor layout pattern, it's too late to fix
aliasing.

> Take a camera RAW of 6 megs, and blend the three layers to your liking
> for full tonal range, and you'll have a perfectly sharp 6 meg photo.

What if the image has detail only in the red or blue channel? Consider the
case of some tree branches against blue water, or some telephone wires
against a red wall. In that case, virtually all the detail is in one
channel, and adding the other two does nothing.

Your other points I basically agree with.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-18 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth Rossman" <seth@m...> wrote:
> 
> But, you'd still need the IR filter (hot mirror they used to call 
> it; probably named by the same shmo that invented "prosumer."

Don't know where you're going with this "used to call it" or "shmo" stuff, but I assure you that they still call hot mirrors "hot mirrors".

> So... a filter is a filter.

Quite untrue. An AA filter reduced resolution. It expands sharply focused points of light to out of focus squares of light (yes, squares, and I'm not going to launch into the physics of it).
 
> The sharpness difference would still be akin to those that want to 
> print at 5760, then use a 10X loupe to compare it to a 2880 and 
> scream "it's sharper."  

No. The sharpness difference, as I pointed out earlier, is at least 40%. One full paper size. It's just like a lot of 35mm work. Acceptable at 8x10, marginal or unacceptable at 11x14.
 
> And, who'd buy it.  The minimal production would cost a fortune.

More than enough people would buy it to keep a small shop running quite comfortably. You don't even understand the filters, don't pretend to understand the costs.

Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-18 by tvalleau

> Also, anti-aliasing _must_ be done with a diffuser over the sensor, and
> can't be done after the fact through calculation. Once the image is
> spatially sampled by the sensor layout pattern, it's too late to fix
> aliasing.

Please don't mention that to the millions of photoshop users who do
anti-aliasing every day... ;-)

I don't believe that's correct, and that anti-aliasing is, in fact, a
pretty darned (read: NSA) sophisticated algorithm (I learned to spell
it... :-) There are both optical and digital approaches to anti-aliasing.



> 
> > Take a camera RAW of 6 megs, and blend the three layers to your liking
> > for full tonal range, and you'll have a perfectly sharp 6 meg photo.
> 
> What if the image has detail only in the red or blue channel?
Consider the
> case of some tree branches against blue water, or some telephone wires
> against a red wall. In that case, virtually all the detail is in one
> channel, and adding the other two does nothing.

That's true... but even if you toss out the 2 of the 3 channels
entirely, you -still- have a 6 megapixel image ...

Cordially

Tracy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Your other points I basically agree with.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-18 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: tvalleau [mailto:tracy@...]
>
> Please don't mention that to the millions of photoshop users who do
> anti-aliasing every day... ;-)

Whenever a digital image is reduced in resolution, the image must be blurred
before resampling, to the point where there are no longer any spatial
frequencies so high that they can't be represented at the lower resolution.
This is the purpose of Photoshop's "bicubic" interpolation algorithm. If,
instead, you use the "nearest neighbor" algorithm, which does no
pre-blurring of the image, you risk aliasing artifacts, if there are sharp
edges or fine repetitive patterns in the original image. Once you've reduced
the resolution using "nearest neighbor", and you see the resulting moire and
jaggies, it's too late to fix them. They _must_ be fixed by filtering the
image _before_ resampling, which, again, is the purpose of "bicubic"
interpolation.

Similarly, if you start with an optical image, and you want to sample it an
turn it into a digital image, you _must_ filter the image _before_ sampling
it. In this case, it must be done with a diffuser in front of the sensor.
Even lens blur, while slightly helpful, isn't the right kind of
filter--what's needed is something more like a Gaussian blur. If you don't
have this diffuser, and you get moire or jaggies, it's too late to fix them.

So the confusion is this: an anti-aliasing filter, whether in the optical or
the digital domain, is something that prefilters a high-resolution image
_before_ resampling down to a lower resolution, thus preventing aliasing
artifacts from occuring. It's not something that removes artifacts after
they happen--that's impossible.

> I don't believe that's correct, and that anti-aliasing is, in fact, a
> pretty darned (read: NSA) sophisticated algorithm (I learned to spell
> it... :-) There are both optical and digital approaches to anti-aliasing.

Anti-aliasing isn't particularly sophisticated. It's just a two-dimensional
spatial low-pass filter. There are some fancier "smart" algorithms, like the
wavelet processing used by Genuine Fractals, but they're used when going in
the other direction, when increasing the resolution, in order to
artificially preserve edge sharpness.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

[Digital BW] Re: Black and white only digital camera

2004-12-18 by tvalleau

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul D. DeRocco"
<pderocco@i...> wrote:
> > From: tvalleau [mailto:tracy@d...]
> >
> > Please don't mention that to the millions of photoshop users who do
> > anti-aliasing every day... ;-)
> 
> Whenever a digital image is reduced in resolution, the image must be
blurred
> before resampling,.......

I thought we were discussing the aquisition of RAW data - light
hitting the CCD, which is an analog function, and does not become
digital until the electrical current hits the A/D converters at the
edge of the sensor.

One has the option of either placing an optical filter in front of the
CCD, which changes the frequences recorded, or grabing the data
without the optical sensor, and interpolating it algorithmically.


> This is the purpose of Photoshop's "bicubic" interpolation
algorithm. If,
> instead, you use the "nearest neighbor" algorithm, which does no
> pre-blurring of the image, you risk aliasing artifacts, if there are
sharp
> edges or fine repetitive patterns in the original image. Once you've
reduced
> the resolution using "nearest neighbor", and you see the resulting
moire and
> jaggies, it's too late to fix them. They _must_ be fixed by
filtering the
> image _before_ resampling, which, again, is the purpose of "bicubic"
> interpolation.
> 
> Similarly, if you start with an optical image, and you want to
sample it an
> turn it into a digital image, you _must_ filter the image _before_
sampling
> it. 

I guess I'm still confused. My camera does not have an optical
anti-aliasing filter. Neither do cameras which have removable optical
filters (such as the Kodak) when the filter is removed... and without
it, they take perfectly sharp photos, which are easily manipulated.

So saying that the ONLY way a digital CCD sensor works is with a
physical optical filter that "_must_" be in front of the CCD, isn't
the case in my universe (or Kodak's apparently.)

> Anti-aliasing isn't particularly sophisticated. 

Well, then I'll admit my stupidity (or age), as I find some of the
mathematical processes to be well over my head, and I'm reasonably
bright otherwise...

see <http://www-ise.stanford.edu/~tingchen/intro.htm> and
<http://www.cs.brown.edu/courses/cs123/lectures/ImageProcess3.pdf>
and the works of Ravjeev Ramanath in the Journal of Electronic
Imaging, including "Adaptive Demosaicking" and "Demosaicking methods
for the Bayer Color Array".

But this is (as can be seen by my failure to understand these simple
formula) getting a bit over my head. It strikes me that we're talking
at cross purposes, perhaps in different languages.

I initially merely want to clarify that which I felt would leave an
incorrect impression in a previous post (the author of which I've
forgotten), which implied that one got 1.5 megs of Red and Blue
information and 3 megs of green, -to Work with- in a digital photo
and that deconstructing a 6 meg photo would somehow reduce to the sum
of those parts... such as 2 1.5 meg channels and one 3 meg channel)
which is a false impression.

The post also introduced "sharpness information" and there is no such
thing coming off a CCD.

Using internal algorithms (which are, as I noted, beyond me) the RAW
CCD information from a 6 meg, 3 color sensor, is 6 megs of red, 6 megs
of blue, and 6 megs of green.

Shooting color for printing B&W benefits from this since differing
frequencies of the light spectrum, and in differing ranged-amounts, is
available as gray information in these three channels, providing the
B&W photographer a great jumping-off point for creating a fully-toned
B&W image.

I guess it's time for me to back out of this conversation, and leave
it by saying that I find shooting a color camera for B&W work, when
one can get a RAW file from it, to be a delight, and capable of at
least meeting, if not exceeding, what I could do in a darkroom 40
years ago...

I've enjoyed the reparte!

Cordially

Tracy Valleau
http://TracyValleau.com

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