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Red Sound Micro Sync

Red Sound Micro Sync

2003-05-22 by erik_magrini@Baxter.com

Yes, the way the connections on Micro Sync have to be achieved is one of 
it's unfortunate downsides, though there are ways around it.  The basic 
premise is that the MS needs to have an audio signal being fed to it, and 
from this audio signal it detects the tempo and generates the MIDI clock 
your 505/R8 will use as it's clock source.  The problem, is that if you're 
just sending it a signal from the main outs of the DJ mixer (or recording 
outs), you're also sending it the audio from 505/R8 as part of that 
signal. Thus, you get sort of a feedback loop, where you're trying to 
detect the BPM of the records to sync the 505 to, but you're also using 
the signal of the 505 as a source as well.  So in this situtation not only 
is the 505 receiving a clock signal, it's also part ot the audio 
generating it!  So it's not a audible squeeling, cover your ears type of 
feedback, but an issue with the sync.

There's two ways around this, depending on the situation.  If you're in a 
situation where you can use an external mixer, then you can connect it via 
the diagrams on the Red Sound page and you're good to good. Unfortunately, 
this is rarely possible in a club setting, so you have to use another 
method.  I personally use the effects loop sends on the DJ mixer, and feed 
these to RedSound, and then set channels 1&2 to use the effects loop via 
the switches on the mixer panel.  As long as you don't send the third 
channel the 505 is on to the effects loop, you should be fine.  This is 
also nice, because most DJ mixers have the effects loop post fader, so you 
won't get any weird syncs happening while your buddy is cueing up his next 
record (since that channel's fader or the crossfader will be lowered, thus 
nothing will go out the effect send).  Works fine in use, and you can use 
the effect send knobs on the mixer to govern the levels of the audio 
signal going to the MS.  The MS is kinda picky about the audio levels 
going to it (too loud or quiet and it doesn't work well), so this is very 
nice.  BTW, the MS has an LED that changes colors to let you know the 
strength of the input signal, so no worries there.

Keep in mind it's not perfect, the MS will still need to be adjusted for 
some records (the tempo will be right, but the beat is off), so you need 
to have it where you can reach it still.  Just FYI.

Questions?
rEalm








   Realm, I know you have experience with the RedSound microsync. I 
am getting ready to purchase this so a friend and myself can rock 
decks and drums. I just wanted to know how is this thing connected to 
a basic dj setup?... 2 technics, a 3 input mixer and a 505/R8. I have 
the drums going into the line input on my third channel.

The pdf said something about a sub-mixer and it confused me. Do I 
need 2 mixers before I go into the club's board? Thanks.

dj skurge



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Re: Red Sound Micro Sync

2003-05-22 by djskurge

Excellent clarification, thanks. The only question I really have left 
is how tight is the sync? Does it stay locked at least 90% of the 
time? The reason I ask is because my buddy and I actually kind of 
live remix, where I do fast techno/electro edits on the decks and he 
rocks the drums 90% of the time, so what this means is I kill the 
bass on most of my mixes. Does that lack of bass signal screw up the 
micro?, since its getting the signal off my decks? Basically, I need 
something to keep my attention off trying to lock with the 505/etc. 
all the time, and focus more on my mixes. If I can do this most of 
the time, then I'm all for buyin this thing. Thanks again.

dj skurge




"Keep in mind it's not perfect, the MS will still need to be adjusted 
for some records (the tempo will be right, but the beat is off), so 
you need to have it where you can reach it still. Just FYI."

Questions?
rEalm

RE: [xl7] Red Sound Micro Sync

2003-05-22 by Stu

Hi erik,

How do you find your MS's timing when you don't have any audio signal being
fed to it? Mine is flakey... I use it to drive an E6400 Ultra, and I can
constantly hear small tempo changes going on when I've got bpm synced
effects running (it's especially noticeable with delays, coz the delay
signal gets detuned slightly if the sync changes, causing a flanging
effect)... If I use my rm1x to generate midi clock, the timing is solid. So
it's definitely an issue with the MS...

Regards,

Stu
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: erik_magrini@... [mailto:erik_magrini@...]
  Sent: 22 May 2003 20:22
  To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [xl7] Red Sound Micro Sync


  Yes, the way the connections on Micro Sync have to be achieved is one of
  it's unfortunate downsides, though there are ways around it.  The basic
  premise is that the MS needs to have an audio signal being fed to it, and
  from this audio signal it detects the tempo and generates the MIDI clock
  your 505/R8 will use as it's clock source.  The problem, is that if you're
  just sending it a signal from the main outs of the DJ mixer (or recording
  outs), you're also sending it the audio from 505/R8 as part of that
  signal. Thus, you get sort of a feedback loop, where you're trying to
  detect the BPM of the records to sync the 505 to, but you're also using
  the signal of the 505 as a source as well.  So in this situtation not only
  is the 505 receiving a clock signal, it's also part ot the audio
  generating it!  So it's not a audible squeeling, cover your ears type of
  feedback, but an issue with the sync.

  There's two ways around this, depending on the situation.  If you're in a
  situation where you can use an external mixer, then you can connect it via
  the diagrams on the Red Sound page and you're good to good. Unfortunately,
  this is rarely possible in a club setting, so you have to use another
  method.  I personally use the effects loop sends on the DJ mixer, and feed
  these to RedSound, and then set channels 1&2 to use the effects loop via
  the switches on the mixer panel.  As long as you don't send the third
  channel the 505 is on to the effects loop, you should be fine.  This is
  also nice, because most DJ mixers have the effects loop post fader, so you
  won't get any weird syncs happening while your buddy is cueing up his next
  record (since that channel's fader or the crossfader will be lowered, thus
  nothing will go out the effect send).  Works fine in use, and you can use
  the effect send knobs on the mixer to govern the levels of the audio
  signal going to the MS.  The MS is kinda picky about the audio levels
  going to it (too loud or quiet and it doesn't work well), so this is very
  nice.  BTW, the MS has an LED that changes colors to let you know the
  strength of the input signal, so no worries there.

  Keep in mind it's not perfect, the MS will still need to be adjusted for
  some records (the tempo will be right, but the beat is off), so you need
  to have it where you can reach it still.  Just FYI.

  Questions?
  rEalm








     Realm, I know you have experience with the RedSound microsync. I
  am getting ready to purchase this so a friend and myself can rock
  decks and drums. I just wanted to know how is this thing connected to
  a basic dj setup?... 2 technics, a 3 input mixer and a 505/R8. I have
  the drums going into the line input on my third channel.

  The pdf said something about a sub-mixer and it confused me. Do I
  need 2 mixers before I go into the club's board? Thanks.

  dj skurge



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  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [xl7] Re: Red Sound Micro Sync

2003-05-23 by erik_magrini@Baxter.com

Excellent clarification, thanks. The only question I really have left 
is how tight is the sync? 

>>>Surprisingly very good.  You might hear it drift slightly once in 
awhile, but it's veryg ood at getting the tempo. <<

Does it stay locked at least 90% of the time? 

>>>Yep. Occasioanlyl you may need to 'nudge' it a bit, but they have 
dedicated buttons for this, so it's easy to do.<<<

The reason I ask is because my buddy and I actually kind of 
live remix, where I do fast techno/electro edits on the decks and he 
rocks the drums 90% of the time, so what this means is I kill the 
bass on most of my mixes. Does that lack of bass signal screw up the 
micro?, since its getting the signal off my decks? 

>>>It doesn't just use the bass, it read treble and midrange too.  If you 
want kill the sound of the decks, the Ms will still stay at the same tempo 
until it detects new audio to read, so no worries there.  Or you can put 
it into 'freewheeling mode' which basically pauses the unit from detecting 
new timing info and accidentally changing the tempo say during a drop. <<<

Basically, I need something to keep my attention off trying to lock with 
the 505/etc.  all the time, and focus more on my mixes. If I can do this 
most of the time, then I'm all for buyin this thing. Thanks again.

>>>Yeah, it's not something you can just plug in and forget about, I wish 
it was.  Most of the time it's fine, but like I said once in awhile you 
need to adjust it slightly to match the beat, even though the tempo is 
correct, or nudge it slightly.  I'm in the same boat as you, and this is 
by far the best device I've found to do what we want.  It's not ideal, but 
it works very well 95% of the time.   I say buy it fom a larger chain with 
a good return policy, jsut in case it doesn't work the way you like. <<<

rEalm 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [xl7] Red Sound Micro Sync

2003-05-23 by erik_magrini@Baxter.com

Well, it needs an audio signal to work, so if you're not feeding it any 
audio, then what's the point?  You can manaully enter the tempo via the 
incremetn buttons and then press start.  Maybe I'm not understanding your 
question?  If you don't want it changing the tempo once you have it 
locked, just put it in freewheeling mode.  I do this most of the time for 
best results.  I'll use it to get the tempo of the record, then freewheel 
it the rest of the track.  It's pretty rare to get tempo fluctuations on 
the record itself, so once it has it, the tempo should change until you 
change records.  Then I take it out of FW mode until it sync again, then 
FW, etc....

rEalm




How do you find your MS's timing when you don't have any audio signal 
being
fed to it? Mine is flakey... I use it to drive an E6400 Ultra, and I can
constantly hear small tempo changes going on when I've got bpm synced
effects running (it's especially noticeable with delays, coz the delay
signal gets detuned slightly if the sync changes, causing a flanging
effect)... If I use my rm1x to generate midi clock, the timing is solid. 
So
it's definitely an issue with the MS...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [xl7] Red Sound Micro Sync

2003-05-23 by Stu

Hi Eric,

The reason I run it with no audio signal is coz I don't always sync to
external audio, and it's not really practical to change the settings on my
other kit in the middle of a gig to sync to another clock source, so I just
use the MS without an audio signal...

Anyway, you obviously don't have the same fluctuations I have, or you're not
using your MS in a way that they're noticeable...

Out of interest, what firmware do you have in your MS? Mine is 2.04.

Thanks for replying anyway,

Stu
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: erik_magrini@... [mailto:erik_magrini@...]
  Sent: 23 May 2003 13:32
  To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [xl7] Red Sound Micro Sync


  Well, it needs an audio signal to work, so if you're not feeding it any
  audio, then what's the point?  You can manaully enter the tempo via the
  incremetn buttons and then press start.  Maybe I'm not understanding your
  question?  If you don't want it changing the tempo once you have it
  locked, just put it in freewheeling mode.  I do this most of the time for
  best results.  I'll use it to get the tempo of the record, then freewheel
  it the rest of the track.  It's pretty rare to get tempo fluctuations on
  the record itself, so once it has it, the tempo should change until you
  change records.  Then I take it out of FW mode until it sync again, then
  FW, etc....

  rEalm




  How do you find your MS's timing when you don't have any audio signal
  being
  fed to it? Mine is flakey... I use it to drive an E6400 Ultra, and I can
  constantly hear small tempo changes going on when I've got bpm synced
  effects running (it's especially noticeable with delays, coz the delay
  signal gets detuned slightly if the sync changes, causing a flanging
  effect)... If I use my rm1x to generate midi clock, the timing is solid.
  So
  it's definitely an issue with the MS...



  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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