Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-12 by Jack Pratt

How do you figure that might work?

I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs

I need to build FLASH SIMMs

I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits

There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)

Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.

I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.

If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...

What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!

From: Erik van de Pol
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Cool project!

Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?�

You could defray some of your development coats that way.�

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:

�

The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).

(Snip)

Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-12 by Erik van de Pol

Haven't thought it through to be honest, but the idea would be that people would pledge a reasonable amount (let's say as an example $25). Once enough people pledge, the project would be funded and you'd get the payment.�

That would do a few things:

- it would make people committed and more likely to actually purchase a board when they are available. For those who seeded the project, you could offer a discount on the full price.�

- you'd get some idea of how many boards you could sell. Truth be told, this is likely a niche market with relatively small quantities. I could be wrong of course.�

- you'd get some "seed money" to help defray your risk so it's not entirely out of your pocket.�

- you can even formulate "stretch goals" so you can factor in lower cost at higher quantities.�

Just something to think about.�

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 21:06, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:

�

How do you figure that might work?

I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs
I need to build FLASH SIMMs
I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits

There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)

Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.

I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.

If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...

What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!

From: Erik van de Pol <vandepol.erik@...>
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Cool project!

Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?�

You could defray some of your development coats that way.�

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:
�

The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).

(Snip)

Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)

RE: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-12 by geoffrey szablot

Hey Guys,

I'm pretty sure we are not the only one interested.
What about creating a web page for the project and then posting that on websites like electronic-forum.com, gearslutz, audiofanzine and so on ?

You'll have a rough idea of people interest. Make people know and talk about it !

We still see stuff coming out for older synths & drum machines than the e-mu.
Saw a recent mod for the tr606!

So i don't see why it should80;nt succeed.

CC: xl7@yahoogroups.com
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
From: vandepol.erik@...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:14:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

Haven't thought it through to be honest, but the idea would be that people would pledge a reasonable amount (let's say as an example $25). Once enough people pledge, the project would be funded and you'd get the payment.

That would do a few things:

- it would make people committed and more likely to actually purchase a board when they are available. For those who seeded the project, you could offer a discount on the full price. ;

- you'd get some idea of how many boards you could sell. Truth be told, this is likely a niche market with relatively small quantities. I could be wrong of course.

- you'd get some "seed money" to help defray your risk so it's not entirely out of your pocket.

- you can even formulate "stretch goals" so you can factor in lower cost at higher quantities.

Just something to think about.

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 21:06, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:

How do you figure that might work?

I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs
I need to build FLASH SIMMs
I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits

There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)

Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.

I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.

If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...

What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!

From: Erik van de Pol <vandepol.erik@...>
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "xl7@...m" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

Cool project!

Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?

You could defray some of your development coats that way.60;

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:

The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).

(Snip)

Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-12 by Bruno

It is a niche market, but even worse - you barely penetrate it by posting here. I don't want to bash your ideas - which are extremely cool - but just to point some things.

There was a certain number of sound modules, synths & sequencers in the P2K line. They were bought and if you look at the prices on the second hand market, some of them ARE scarce (PX-7 anyone?). Same with ROMs, some are priced ridiculously high (VROM, Orbit ROMs).

So I would assume, that owners of those machines would certainly like to beef up their toys - they just simply don't hang out on this list, so they have no clue about the project. But I believe that if you put some of those ROMs on ebay and similar pages, the reaction wouldn't be marginal.

Kickstarter was already suggested. But if it's going to be launched that way, the idea of cloning original E-mu ROMs would have to stay clandestine, since the samples & presets are still the property of E-mu (now Creative). Anyway, if you announced it in a way "put your samples in your E-mu for peanuts", that would raise interest, I suppose.

Just my 0.02

Bruno

2013/7/12 geoffrey szablot <electric-motion@...>

Hey Guys,

I'm pretty sure we are not the only one interested.
What about creating a web page for the project and then posting that on websites like electronic-forum.com, gearslutz, audiofanzine and so on ?

You'll have a rough idea of people interest. Make people know and talk about it !

We still see stuff coming out for older synths & drum machines than the e-mu.
Saw a recent mod for the tr606!

So i don't see why it should´nt succeed.

CC: xl7@yahoogroups.com
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
From: vandepol.erik@...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:14:39 -0400

Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

Haven't thought it through to be honest, but the idea would be that people would pledge a reasonable amount (let's say as an example $25). Once enough people pledge, the project would be funded and you'd get the payment.

That would do a few things:

- it would make people committed and more likely to actually purchase a board when they are available. For those who seeded the project, you could offer a discount on the full price.

- you'd get some idea of how many boards you could sell. Truth be told, this is likely a niche market with relatively small quantities. I could be wrong of course.

- you'd get some "seed money" to help defray your risk so it's not entirely out of your pocket.

- you can even formulate "stretch goals" so you can factor in lower cost at higher quantities.

Just something to think about.

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 21:06, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:

How do you figure that might work?

I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs

I need to build FLASH SIMMs
I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits

There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)

Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.

I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.

If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...

What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!

From: Erik van de Pol <vandepol.erik@...>
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

Cool project!

Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?

You could defray some of your development coats that way.

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:

The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).

(Snip)

Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-12 by Nathan Steele

Some ROMs sell for close to 200, as do the flash ones you can program yourself, when they come up, which is almost never. I'd pay 100 no problem, I think that is the target price you should aim for, and I think a lot of people would be willing to buy them. Agreed you should eventually target beyond this group, and I"m sure most of us have other groups we could promote this too, I would say I'd feel better promoting once it looks like it will work though. I think if you can make it work, you could sell 100 boards pretty easy, certainly within a year, just look at how ROMS sell on ebay.

By the way, I have no problem soldering surface mount....It's easy with the right tools ;)

On 7/11/2013 9:06 PM, Jack Pratt wrote:

How do you figure that might work?

I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs

I need to build FLASH SIMMs

I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits

There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)

Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.

I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.

If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...

What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!

From: Erik van de Pol
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

Cool project!

Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?

You could defray some of your development coats that way.

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:

The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).

(Snip)

Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-12 by BENTON MIKE

Hi,

Great, i like opotunity !
Mike.

De�: Nathan Steele <XTCaine303@...>
À�: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Envoyé le : Vendredi 12 juillet 2013 16h53
Objet�: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Some ROMs sell for close to 200, as do the flash ones you can program yourself, when they come up, which is almost never. I'd pay 100 no problem, I think that is the target price you should aim for, and I think a lot of people would be willing to buy them. Agreed you should eventually target beyond this group, and I"m sure most of us have other groups we could promote this too, I would say I'd feel better promoting once it looks like it will work though. I think if you can make it work, you could sell 100 boards pretty easy, certainly within a year, just look at how ROMS sell on ebay.

By the way, I have no problem soldering surface mount....It's easy with the right tools ;)

On 7/11/2013 9:06 PM, Jack Pratt wrote:

�

How do you figure that might work?

I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs

I need to build FLASH SIMMs

I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits

There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)

Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.

I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.

If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...

What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!

From: Erik van de Pol
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Cool project!

Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?�

You could defray some of your development coats that way.�

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:

�

The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).

(Snip)

Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-12 by BENTON MIKE

Oups, opportunity

De�: BENTON MIKE
À�: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Envoyé le : Samedi 13 juillet 2013 0h28
Objet�: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Hi,

Great, i like opotunity !
Mike.

De�: Nathan Steele À�: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Envoyé le : Vendredi 12 juillet 2013 16h53
Objet�: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Some ROMs sell for close to 200, as do the flash ones you can program yourself, when they come up, which is almost never. I'd pay 100 no problem, I think that is the target price you should aim for, and I think a lot of people would be willing to buy them. Agreed you should eventually target beyond this group, and I"m sure most of us have other groups we could promote this too, I would say I'd feel better promoting once it looks like it will work though. I think if you can make it work, you could sell 100 boards pretty easy, certainly within a year, just look at how ROMS sell on ebay.

By the way, I have no problem soldering surface mount....It's easy with the right tools ;)

On 7/11/2013 9:06 PM, Jack Pratt wrote:

�

How do you figure that might work?

I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs

I need to build FLASH SIMMs

I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits

There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)

Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.

I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.

If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...

What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!

From: Erik van de Pol
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Cool project!

Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?�

You could defray some of your development coats that way.�

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:

�

The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).

(Snip)

Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-12 by craig ward

Yeah like even start a pozible group to kick it off though this group and then you will know how many people will be willing to put up.

Sent from my iPhone

On 12/07/2013, at 11:07 AM, "Jack Pratt" <woodsworth1@yahoo.com> wrote:

How do you figure that might work?

I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs
I need to build FLASH SIMMs
I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits

There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)

Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.

I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.

If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...

What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!

From: Erik van de Pol <vandepol.erik@gmail.com>
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

Cool project!

Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?

You could defray some of your development coats that way.

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@yahoo.com> wrote:

The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).

(Snip)

Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-12 by BENTON MIKE

Hi,

I have been member on audiofanzine for 11 years, and there is still a dynamic community EM!

I have all�Rom Emu (series 2000), 1Xl71, 1 Mp7, Proteus 2000, Turbo-Phat, Orbit 3, Carnival, it I have misses I just the Rom Audity.
Others samples of synthesizer different would interest, Korg, Roland, and other…

How to capture correctly sample, and give a good rom "to eat of pk2 or XX7" ?

Link for gig :

http://fr.audiofanzine.com/membres/2692/products/

Bests regards

Mike.

De�: Bruno <;brunorc@...>
À : xl7
Envoyé le : Vendredi 12 juillet 2013 10h23
Objet�: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

It is a niche market, but even worse - you barely penetrate it by posting here. I don't want to bash your ideas - which are extremely cool - but just to point some things.

There was a certain number of sound modules, synths & sequencers in the P2K line. They were bought and if you look at the prices on the second hand market, some of them ARE scarce (PX-7 anyone?). Same with ROMs, some are priced ridiculously high (VROM, Orbit ROMs).

So I would assume, that owners of those machines would certainly like to beef up their toys - they just simply don't hang out on this list, so they have no clue about the project. But I believe that if you put some of those ROMs on ebay and similar pages, the reaction wouldn't be marginal.

Kickstarter was already suggested. But if it's going to be launched that way, the idea of cloning original E-mu ROMs would have to stay clandestine, since the samples & presets are still the property of E-mu (now Creative). Anyway, if you announced it in a way "put your samples in your E-mu for peanuts", that would raise interest, I suppose.

Just my 0.02

Bruno

2013/7/12 geoffrey szablot <electric-motion@...>

Hey Guys,

I'm pretty sure we are not the only one interested.
What about creating a web page for the project and then posting that on websites like electronic-forum.com, gearslutz, audiofanzine and so on ?

You'll have a rough idea of people��interest. Make people know and talk about it !

We still see stuff coming out for older synths & drum machines than the e-mu.
Saw a recent mod for the tr606!

So i don't see why it should´nt succeed.

CC: xl7@yahoogroups.com
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
From: vandepol.erik@...
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:14:39 -0400

Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Haven't thought it through to be honest, but the idea would be that people would pledge a reasonable amount (let's say as an example $25). Once enough people pledge, the project would be funded and you'd get the payment.�

That would do a few things:

- it would make people committed and more likely to actually purchase a board when they are available. For those who seeded the project, you could offer a discount on the full price.�

- you'd get some idea of how many boards you could sell. Truth be told, this is likely a niche market with relatively small quantities. I could be wrong of course.�

- you'd get some "seed money" to help defray your risk so it's not entirely out of your pocket.�

- you can even formulate "stretch goals" so you can factor in lower cost at higher quantities.�

Just something to think about.�

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 21:06, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@yahoo.com> wrote:

How do you figure that might work?

I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs

I need to build FLASH SIMMs
I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits

There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)

Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.

I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.

If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...

What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!

From: Erik van de Pol <vandepol.erik@...>
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Cool project!

Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?�

You could defray some of your development coats that way.�

—Erik

On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:
�

The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).

(Snip)

Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)

Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-14 by shakerz25

I would be interested, though I'm not sure what you mean by a "self-programming FLASH SIMM."  To clarify, what you're talking about...

"Basically you could put this one SIMM in one socket with the others empty and it could look like you had SIMMs in all 4 sockets."

...would be like having one super SIMM that could hold all the different sounds, or some of them, that were on the various EMU ROMS (so would you download the patches and store them on the SIMM...?);

...and different than manufacturing the SIMMS that people could put their own samples on--which was possible using one of the EMU samplers (I don't know which one).  The SIMM could then be used in the Command Stations to play back home-made samples, but this seems to have been a rare undertaking.

Or am I wrong...?  




--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Bruno <brunorc@...> wrote:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: woodsworth1 <woodsworth1@...>
> Date: 2013/7/10
> Subject: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
> To: p2k@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> **
> 
> 
> Hi.
> 
> Couple years back I started a project to build a FLASH based SIMM for
> proteus 2000 systems that acted like mulitple SIMMs at the same time.
> Basically you could put this one SIMM in one socket with the others empty
> and it could look like you had SIMMs in all 4 sockets. I got pretty far
> along the path of making it (even getting some PCBs made) when I discovered
> that I had the pin outs of the microcontroller (that allowed you to program
> the FLASH devices via a usb connection) wrong and the at the boards were
> just scrap. I posted a picture of the boards in the group. I was annoyed at
> myself so I dropped the bundle.
> 
> Well... I was thinking that the idea is still sound (though I wasted a lot
> of $$) and I could finish it off if there was sufficient interest in the
> thing.
> 
> What good is it? Well you could have any four ROM SIMMs in you system that
> you choose. You could reprogram it as you want. And in theory (if we can
> decode the format of the contents - shouldn't be too hard) you could author
> your own ROM images and download them , then create your own presets and
> hard code them onto the device as well. It would be a bit of messing about
> to achieve the results but if people are prepared to put in the effort...
> 
> so is anyone interested?
>

Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-21 by thisistheshortestaliaspossible

http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMU-PROJECT-BOARDS-TO-BUILD-YOUR-OWN-EMU-ROMS-/321077037871

spotted these on ebay just now. May be good for this project?
I'd definitely want one!

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, craig ward <craigbiz@...> wrote:
>
> Yeah like even start a pozible group to kick it off though this group and then you will know how many people will be willing to put up. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 12/07/2013, at 11:07 AM, "Jack Pratt" <woodsworth1@...> wrote:
> 
> > How do you figure that might work?
> > 
> > I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs
> > I need to build FLASH SIMMs
> > I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits
> > 
> > There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)
> > 
> > Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.
> > 
> > I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.
> > 
> > If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...
> > 
> > 
> > What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!
> > 
> > 
> > From: Erik van de Pol <vandepol.erik@...>
> > To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> 
> > Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> 
> > Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
> > 
> >  
> > Cool project!
> > 
> > Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal? 
> > 
> > You could defray some of your development coats that way. 
> > 
> > â"Erik
> > 
> > 
> > On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:
> >>  
> >> 
> >> The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).
> >> 
> >> 
> >> (Snip)
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)
> > 
> > 
> >
>

Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-21 by steve_the_composer

I have seen these boards on ebay before.  Other people with more expertise than me will have to determine whether or not these can be populated with chips that are currently available or if new boards need to be designed. That is way beyond my area of expertise.
Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "thisistheshortestaliaspossible" <perostec@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMU-PROJECT-BOARDS-TO-BUILD-YOUR-OWN-EMU-ROMS-/321077037871
> 
> spotted these on ebay just now. May be good for this project?
> I'd definitely want one!
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, craig ward <craigbiz@> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah like even start a pozible group to kick it off though this group and then you will know how many people will be willing to put up. 
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > 
> > On 12/07/2013, at 11:07 AM, "Jack Pratt" <woodsworth1@> wrote:
> > 
> > > How do you figure that might work?
> > > 
> > > I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs
> > > I need to build FLASH SIMMs
> > > I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits
> > > 
> > > There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)
> > > 
> > > Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.
> > > 
> > > I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.
> > > 
> > > If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!
> > > 
> > > 
> > > From: Erik van de Pol <vandepol.erik@>
> > > To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> 
> > > Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> 
> > > Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
> > > 
> > >  
> > > Cool project!
> > > 
> > > Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal? 
> > > 
> > > You could defray some of your development coats that way. 
> > > 
> > > â"Erik
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@> wrote:
> > >>  
> > >> 
> > >> The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> (Snip)
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> >
>

Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-21 by ric weidner

this is making me hot and bothered


--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, geoffrey szablot <electric-motion@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys,
> 
> I'm pretty sure we are not the only one interested.
> What about creating a web page for the project and then posting that on websites like electronic-forum.com, gearslutz, audiofanzine and so on ?
> 
> You'll have a rough idea of people  interest. Make people know and talk about it !
> 
> We still see stuff coming out for older synths & drum machines than the e-mu.
> Saw a recent mod for the tr606!
> 
> So i don't see why it should´nt succeed.
> 
> 
> CC: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> From: vandepol.erik@...
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 22:14:39 -0400
> Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       Haven't thought it through to be honest, but the idea would be that people would pledge a reasonable amount (let's say as an example $25). Once enough people pledge, the project would be funded and you'd get the payment. 
> That would do a few things:
> - it would make people committed and more likely to actually purchase a board when they are available. For those who seeded the project, you could offer a discount on the full price. 
> - you'd get some idea of how many boards you could sell. Truth be told, this is likely a niche market with relatively small quantities. I could be wrong of course. 
> - you'd get some "seed money" to help defray your risk so it's not entirely out of your pocket. 
> - you can even formulate "stretch goals" so you can factor in lower cost at higher quantities. 
> Just something to think about. 
> 
> Erik
> 
> On Jul 11, 2013, at 21:06, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       
> How do you figure that might work?
> I need to build the development board to read existing ROMsI need to build FLASH SIMMsI don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts
>  or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits
> There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)
> Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up
>  more time.
> I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.
> If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...
> 
> What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!
> 
>         From: Erik van de Pol <vandepol.erik@...>
>  To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> 
> Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> 
>  Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
>  Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
>    
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       Cool project!
> Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal? 
> You could defray some of your development coats that way. 
> 
> Erik
> 
> On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>     
>       
>       
>       
> The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).
> 
> (Snip)
> 
> Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)
>

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-23 by Jack Pratt

These boards are for 5V parts which you can still get but are becoming less common. You could populate them but they are not set up for FLASH parts so I doubt that you could convert them to FLASH boards without a fair bit of effort. Also they only have 2Mbit FLASH for presets which I'm guesssing would not accomodate the full preset of later ROMs...

From: steve_the_composer
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 21 July 2013 2:38 PM
Subject: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

I have seen these boards on ebay before. Other people with more expertise than me will have to determine whether or not these can be populated with chips that are currently available or if new boards need to be designed. That is way beyond my area of expertise.
Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "thisistheshortestaliaspossible" wrote:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMU-PROJECT-BOARDS-TO-BUILD-YOUR-OWN-EMU-ROMS-/321077037871
>
> spotted these on ebay just now. May be good for this project?
> I'd definitely want one!
>
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, craig ward wrote:
> >
> > Yeah like even start a pozible group to kick it off though this group and then you will know how many people will be willing to put up.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On 12/07/2013, at 11:07 AM, "Jack Pratt" wrote:
> >
> > > How do you figure that might work?
> > >
> > > I need to build the development board to read existing ROMs
> > > I need to build FLASH SIMMs
> > > I don't expect anyone to be able to solder surface mount parts or procure the parts for any reasonable cost so I don't see how anyone benefits
> > >
> > > There are no project intermediates (ie I can't do a cut down version for less cost)
> > >
> > > Anyone can do the OS disassembly any time they like, and then create an altered version to do whatever they like. If I do it it just takes up more time.
> > >
> > > I'm guessing that If I can make and sell 50 it will have cost me in parts, board manufacture, consumables and labour around $5000. SO if I can sell 50 I would probably break even at around $100 each... but If I only sell 25 I get stuck with $2500 worth of stuff that I can't do anything with. If I can sell 100 I might be able to do it for $65 each. So I sell them at a price to cover costs. And I still don't get compensated for time and effort.
> > >
> > > If there is enough interest I can sell them cheaper because the fixed costs are amortised over a larger number of product, otherwise...
> > >
> > >
> > > What do you think such a board is worth? If you can make it cheaper please do so!!
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Erik van de Pol
> >; > To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Cc: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 10:35 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
> > >
> > >
> > > Cool project!
> > >
> > > Have you considered doing this as a kickstarter project with a realistic funding goal?
> > >
> > > You could defray some of your development coats that way.
> > >
> > > â€"Erik
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jul 11, 2013, at 19:44, Jack Pratt wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The error was sooo basic that I was embarrassed to continue the project (and it cost me plenty of $$ that fueled the annoyance).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> (Snip)
> > >>
>; > >>
> > >> Cost... broad estimate $100-$200 probably closer to $200, but depends on the number I think I can sell (buying in bulk reduces the costs, but buying too many means I get stuck with a large inventory of parts)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-23 by steve_the_composer

Thanks for the info. I was wondering whether or not the boards could be used for E-Mu Flash ROMs. It seems to me that turning them into Sound ROMS would require a detailed understanding of the ROM's architecture and a way to burn them.
--Steve
 

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:
>
> These boards are for 5V parts which you can still get but are becoming less common. You could populate them but they are not set up for FLASH parts so I doubt that you could convert them to FLASH boards without a fair bit of effort. Also they only have 2Mbit FLASH for presets which I'm guesssing would not accomodate the full preset of later ROMs...
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: steve_the_composer <smw-mail@...>
> To: xl7@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, 21 July 2013 2:38 PM
> Subject: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
>  
> 
> 
> Â  
> I have seen these boards on ebay before.  Other people with more expertise than me will have to determine whether or not these can be populated with chips that are currently available or if new boards need to be designed. That is way beyond my area of expertise.
> Steve
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "thisistheshortestaliaspossible" <perostec@> wrote:
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMU-PROJECT-BOARDS-TO-BUILD-YOUR-OWN-EMU-ROMS-/321077037871
> > 
> > spotted these on ebay just now. May be good for this project?
> > I'd definitely want one!
> >

Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-07-24 by Jack Pratt

Not really... you would need to have a way to duplicate the existing parts (ROM chips) that's all.

From: steve_the_composer
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 23 July 2013 10:48 PM
Subject: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Thanks for the info. I was wondering whether or not the boards could be used for E-Mu Flash ROMs. It seems to me that turning them into Sound ROMS would require a detailed understanding of the ROM's architecture and a way to burn them.
--Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Jack Pratt wrote:
>
> These boards are for 5V parts which you can still get but are becoming less common. You could populate them but they are not set up for FLASH parts so I doubt that you could convert them to FLASH boards without a fair bit of effort. Also they only have 2Mbit FLASH for presets which I'm guesssing would not accomodate the full preset of later ROMs...
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: steve_the_composer
> To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 21 July 2013 2:38 PM
> Subject: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
>
>
>
> Â
> I have seen these boards on ebay before. Other people with more expertise than me will have to determine whether or not these can be populated with chips that are currently available or if new boards need to be designed. That is way beyond my area of expertise.
> Steve
>
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "thisistheshortestaliaspossible" wrote:
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMU-PROJECT-BOARDS-TO-BUILD-YOUR-OWN-EMU-ROMS-/321077037871
> >
> > spotted these on ebay just now. May be good for this project?
> > I'd definitely want one!
> >

Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-08-01 by Kim

I want one. I assume we could flash our own rom sounds from the E series? 

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@...> wrote:
>
> Not really... you would need to have a way to duplicate the existing parts (ROM chips) that's all.
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: steve_the_composer <smw-mail@...>
> To: xl7@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, 23 July 2013 10:48 PM
> Subject: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
>  
> 
> 
> Â  
> Thanks for the info. I was wondering whether or not the boards could be used for E-Mu Flash ROMs. It seems to me that turning them into Sound ROMS would require a detailed understanding of the ROM's architecture and a way to burn them.
> --Steve
> 
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Jack Pratt <woodsworth1@> wrote:
> >
> > These boards are for 5V parts which you can still get but are becoming less common. You could populate them but they are not set up for FLASH parts so I doubt that you could convert them to FLASH boards without a fair bit of effort. Also they only have 2Mbit FLASH for presets which I'm guesssing would not accomodate the full preset of later ROMs...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> >  From: steve_the_composer <smw-mail@>
> > To: xl7@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 21 July 2013 2:38 PM
> > Subject: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ÃÂ  
> > I have seen these boards on ebay before.  Other people with more expertise than me will have to determine whether or not these can be populated with chips that are currently available or if new boards need to be designed. That is way beyond my area of expertise.
> > Steve
> > 
> > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "thisistheshortestaliaspossible" <perostec@> wrote:
> > >
> > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMU-PROJECT-BOARDS-TO-BUILD-YOUR-OWN-EMU-ROMS-/321077037871
> > > 
> > > spotted these on ebay just now. May be good for this project?
> > > I'd definitely want one!
> > >
>

RE: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-12-13 by <ricard2010@...>

I still think this sounds like an interesting project. Some of the ROM boards are starting to sell for ridiculous prices when they do appear, so I think there's a definite interest.

I'm not sure how much of a profit could be made though. If I had the time to do something like this, I'd make a bunch of boards for my own use, then try to sell a bunch to make it break even. After that it gets tedious unless you want to get into manufacturing boards, so perhaps just get a bunch of PCB's done and sell them bare, or put the files up on some DIY site so that they become available for others? It all depends on how much time you're willing to spend working with producing boards in the end.

Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2013-12-14 by AJ

This looks good to me. The original boards are definitely overpriced.
  
--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, <ricard2010@...> wrote:
>
> I still think this sounds like an interesting project. Some of the ROM boards are starting to sell for ridiculous prices when they do appear, so I think there's a definite interest.
> 
> I'm not sure how much of a profit could be made though. If I had the time to do something like this, I'd make a bunch of boards for my own use, then try to sell a bunch to make it break even. After that it gets tedious unless you want to get into manufacturing boards, so perhaps just get a bunch of PCB's done and sell them bare, or put the files up on some DIY site so that they become available for others? It all depends on how much time you're willing to spend working with producing boards in the end.
>

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-11 by Matt

Doesn't seem like it.

On Jul 10, 2014 7:25 PM, "janoch23@yahoo.se [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Any updates on this?

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-11 by Andre Lewis

Actually this has been on my list of things to do for some time. �I want to reverse engineer the sound rom electrical and data formats and then create a custom 'card' that would dynamically load a soundset in from SD cards.

I'm partially equipped for this, but I'd be thrilled if anyone else out there could help.

I don't think we could get EMU to open source the OS, or perhaps we could? �I don't see Creative actually doing anything with the Synth Engines any time soon, and there are a lot of things that could be improved for current owners...

Andre

On Friday, July 11, 2014 8:32 AM, "Matt somatt@... [xl7]" ; wrote:

�

Doesn't seem like it.

On Jul 10, 2014 7:25 PM, "janoch23@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

�

Any updates on this?

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-11 by Andre Lewis

I've really no idea. �The fact that you can burn custom chips from the E5000 series sampler is a good sign though. �I imagine there must be a unique rom id, a read location within the chip and an offset into that initial location.

The actual OS seems to be done via XILINX FPGA's, using relatively old chips. �I'm going to look into getting a spare XL7 to work with. �Perhaps getting an E5000 and a burnable rom to check as well.�

Most of the newer sampling oscilloscopes can pull the data bits, mine can do two channels at a time. �

Key questions are:

What voltage are the sample roms running at
What's the clock rate of the chips
How many layers on a sample rom PCB
Documenting traces
Are they using a known bus protocol, if so what?
What voltage is the mainboard
Where could we siphon electricity to run the SDCard

I don't think an SDCard has fast enough transfer rates, we would probably need to load it into local ram and emulate the ROM. �Luckily ram is cheap now, and the atmel chips should clock high enough to deal with the transfer rates.

On Friday, July 11, 2014 12:37 PM, "George G pluto_ro@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

I can help, I have a very well prepared team for electronics,�we just need a plan.

Where I am a little bit sceptic is the data formats read and producing.

The EMU route is out of the question for sure...

Sent from my iPhone

On 11.07.2014, at 21:54, "Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

�

Actually this has been on my list of things to do for some time. �I want to reverse engineer the sound rom electrical and data formats and then create a custom 'card' that would dynamically load a soundset in from SD cards.

I'm partially equipped for this, but I'd be thrilled if anyone else out there could help.

I don't think we could get EMU to open source the OS, or perhaps we could? �I don't see Creative actually doing anything with the Synth Engines any time soon, and there are a lot of things that could be improved for current owners...

Andre

On Friday, July 11, 2014 8:32 AM, "Matt somatt@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

�

Doesn't seem like it.

On Jul 10, 2014 7:25 PM, "janoch23@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

�

Any updates on this?

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-12 by dlehtihet@...

I would gladly purchase such a solution (being an owner of both an E5000 Ultra as well as a mophatt module).

I had a brief correspondence with Brian (Sector101) which have built flash-rom modules for the Yamaha range (Sy99/85/th500 as well as for the EX5/r/7 range) and he told me that it was not possible to do due to the chips being to old. If you guys can prove that wrong, i'll be the first in line to purchase what you come up with for sure :-).

br

Dan

Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-13 by Andre Lewis

I don't think a dynamically loaded sample set is any different than a rom based set, other than that you wouldn't need to keep an E5000 around to load samples. Every part of the sound engine is sample based, so I can see being able to load samples dynamically as a welcome addition, if for not other reason that with a minor case modification I would never need to open my XL7 again to add samples. We could also do some tricks to allow patches to address more samples than the 8mb by paging, dynamically changing address pointers to sounds.

A lot of the atmel chips can be clocked up to 100mhz, so I think we can respond quickly enough if we load things up in local ram and add some caching.

Are the roms the same for all 2500 variants? I would feel better about hacking apart one of the XL1's etc than a command station.

The other things on the emulated chips would be patches, beats and demo riffs.

Did any of the other sampler ranges include chip burners as standard or are they all 'Optional'?

Andre

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-13 by Jon Carroll

All of the 'Ultra' units, afaik, could burn flash ROMS

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:26 AM
Subject: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming 
FLASH SIMM?

I don't think a dynamically loaded sample set is any different than a rom 
based set, other than that you wouldn't need to keep an E5000 around to load 
samples. Every part of the sound engine is sample based, so I can see being 
able to load samples dynamically as a welcome addition, if for not other 
reason that with a minor case modification I would never need to open my XL7 
again to add samples. We could also do some tricks to allow patches to 
address more samples than the 8mb by paging, dynamically changing address 
pointers to sounds.

A lot of the atmel chips can be clocked up to 100mhz, so I think we can 
respond quickly enough if we load things up in local ram and add some 
caching.

Are the roms the same for all 2500 variants? I would feel better about 
hacking apart one of the XL1's etc than a command station.

The other things on the emulated chips would be patches, beats and demo 
riffs.

Did any of the other sampler ranges include chip burners as standard or are 
they all 'Optional'?

Andre 

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-13 by smw-mail@...

As far as I know, samples and multisamples are in big flash; preset definitions are in baby flash. (I read that in one of the docs.) That's why you need an ultra sampler and a P2K/CS. The ultra sampler would write the samples/multisamples; the P2K/CS would write the preset definitions. Not sure if you can write arps and riffs to baby flash with anything that was mass marketed.

Steve

PS: That's why you can read P2K ROMs (big flash only) in ultra samplers.

Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-13 by janoch23@...

Don't get me wrong, I'd love dynamic sample loading. I was just saying that if it makes things less likely to happen at all than a regular flash rom, I'd prefer the latter. Otoh, if there is a bigger interest in a dynamic ram solution, then that would be more likely to happen.

In fact, if there's another CPU on the ROM module controlling RAM emulating flash rom, why not make it truly dynamic and modify the bytes on the fly for true PWM waves and supersaw :-) Seriously, naive rectangular PWM shouldn't be too impossible... Let's replace all the RAM chips with GHz FPGAs! :-o (no, please don't)

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-14 by Andre Lewis

I tend to believe that it's worth the effort to make it dynamic. �A static rom would mean having �a hardware burner to create it. �If we have �a solid plan I think it's doable.

Hardware, I think we should be using an atmel AVR chip, they are small low powered and fast enough to pump everything through. �They also can deal with SD cards easily, and possibly USB.

We also need some RAM on board for fast access to the samples. �I think 64mb is the largest sized rom? �Or is it 128mb? a four layer card, some resister packs. �

Is there a crystal on the expansion cards or is it clocked by the EMU?

Are there any standard IC's on the ROMs or are they all proprietary EMU?

From the software side of things we need to reverse engineer some of the actual stored formats, like patches, beats, and riffs. �We should be able to deliver these directly from our shared bus as well.

We can get some of this from the initial power on of the device, I have a 2gs rigol which should be able to get the initial boot sequence. �;

We might also have to report a proxy sample set to the EMU so we have time to load up the samples into RAM. �New sd cards seem to be able to dump across a lot of info quickly, so we could also cheap out and play directly from the sdcard, though I don't think this is a good idea.

We may need an app to package these on the host side, doing things like mapping patches to samples, or ensuring samples get loaded in a specific order.

I like your idea about cheap PWM, it's actually a fun idea. �I was also thinking in terms of wavetable sweeps as well. �I guess we could use velocity as the key to trigger it, since most of the real processing happens after the ROM has dumped it's samples.

We should put together a google doc to start tracking this stuff.

On Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:39 AM, "janoch23@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

Don't get me wrong, I'd love dynamic sample loading. I was just saying that if it makes things less likely to happen at all than a regular flash rom, I'd prefer the latter. Otoh, if there is a bigger interest in a dynamic ram solution, then that would be more likely to happen.

In fact, if there's another CPU on the ROM module controlling RAM emulating flash rom, why not make it truly dynamic and modify the bytes on the fly for true PWM waves and supersaw :-) Seriously, naive rectangular PWM shouldn't be too impossible... Let's replace all the RAM chips with GHz FPGAs! :-o (no, please don't)

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-14 by Jon Carroll

really don't need RAM for 'fast access' to the samples considering the speed 
of the ROM involved. Flash memory i s going to end up being much faster than 
the original ROMs.

here's a picture of an original  32 MB flash ROM:

http://www.theavenuesinstruments.com/i/Sampler/EmuFlash32_640.jpg

the Flash chips on it are Intel e28f640
datasheet here: 
http://www.ic-on-line.cn/view_download.php?id=1511688&file=0257\ge28f640j3_164745.pdf

125 ns initial access speed
25 ns page reads

most papaers on using it refer to it as 120 ns speed. that is about 8 Mhz.

SD is 208 Mhz. I really don't see how there will be a speed problem that 
will require yet another memory controller and interface on the card.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a 
self-programming FLASH SIMM?


I tend to believe that it's worth the effort to make it dynamic. A static 
rom would mean having a hardware burner to create it. If we have a solid 
plan I think it's doable.

Hardware, I think we should be using an atmel AVR chip, they are small low 
powered and fast enough to pump everything through. They also can deal with 
SD cards easily, and possibly USB.
We also need some RAM on board for fast access to the samples. I think 64mb 
is the largest sized rom? Or is it 128mb? a four layer card, some resister 
packs.

Is there a crystal on the expansion cards or is it clocked by the EMU?

Are there any standard IC's on the ROMs or are they all proprietary EMU?

From the software side of things we need to reverse engineer some of the 
actual stored formats, like patches, beats, and riffs. We should be able to 
deliver these directly from our shared bus as well.
We can get some of this from the initial power on of the device, I have a 
2gs rigol which should be able to get the initial boot sequence.

We might also have to report a proxy sample set to the EMU so we have time 
to load up the samples into RAM. New sd cards seem to be able to dump across 
a lot of info quickly, so we could also cheap out and play directly from the 
sdcard, though I don't think this is a good idea.

We may need an app to package these on the host side, doing things like 
mapping patches to samples, or ensuring samples get loaded in a specific 
order.

I like your idea about cheap PWM, it's actually a fun idea. I was also 
thinking in terms of wavetable sweeps as well. I guess we could use velocity 
as the key to trigger it, since most of the real processing happens after 
the ROM has dumped it's samples.

We should put together a google doc to start tracking this stuff.



On Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:39 AM, "janoch23@... [xl7]" 
<xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




Don't get me wrong, I'd love dynamic sample loading. I was just saying that 
if it makes things less likely to happen at all than a regular flash rom, 
I'd prefer the latter. Otoh, if there is a bigger interest in a dynamic ram 
solution, then that would be more likely to happen.

In fact, if there's another CPU on the ROM module controlling RAM emulating 
flash rom, why not make it truly dynamic and modify the bytes on the fly for 
true PWM waves and supersaw :-) Seriously, naive rectangular PWM shouldn't 
be too impossible... Let's replace all the RAM chips with GHz FPGAs! :-o 
(no, please don't)


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM? [1 Attachment]

2014-07-14 by Bruce Manning

This has been discussed before in the group. It would be fantastic to see it completed. Flash is faster.

Looking forward to hearing more about it.�

On Monday, July 14, 2014 5:15 AM, "Carl Lofgren carl_lofgren@... [xl7]"

�

[Attachment(s) from Carl Lofgren included below]

I'm very much interested in this project!

/C

'Jon Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]

14 Jul 2014 10:11

�

really don't need RAM for 'fast access' to the samples considering the speed
of the ROM involved. Flash memory i s going to end up being much faster than
the original ROMs.

here's a picture of an original 32 MB flash ROM:

http://www.theavenuesinstruments.com/i/Sampler/EmuFlash32_640.jpg

the Flash chips on it are Intel e28f640
datasheet here:
http://www.ic-on-line.cn/view_download.php?id=1511688&file=0257\ge28f640j3_164745.pdf

125 ns initial access speed
25 ns page reads

most papaers on using it refer to it as 120 ns speed. that is about 8 Mhz.

SD is 208 Mhz. I really don't see how there will be a speed problem that
will require yet another memory controller and interface on the card.

Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@yahoo.com [xl7]

14 Jul 2014 09:45

�

I tend to believe that it's worth the effort to make it dynamic. A static rom would mean having �a hardware burner to create it. If we have �a solid plan I think it's doable.

Hardware, I think we should be using an atmel AVR chip, they are small low powered and fast enough to pump everything through. �They also can deal with SD cards easily, and possibly USB.
We also need some RAM on board for fast access to the samples. �;I think 64mb is the largest sized rom? �Or is it 128mb? �a four layer card, some resister packs. �

Is there a crystal on the expansion cards or is it clocked by the EMU?

Are there any standard IC's on the ROMs or are they all proprietary EMU?

From the software side of things we need to reverse engineer some of the actual stored formats, like patches, beats, and riffs. �We should be able to deliver these directly from our shared bus as well.
We can get some of this from the initial power on of the device, I have a 2gs rigol which should be able to get the initial boot sequence. �

We might also have to report a proxy sample set to the EMU so we have time to load up the samples into RAM. �New sd cards seem to be able to dump across a lot of info quickly, so we could also cheap out and play directly from the sdcard, though I don't think this is a good idea.

We may need an app to package these on the host side, doing things like mapping patches to samples, or ensuring samples get loaded in a specific order.

I like your idea about cheap PWM, it's actually a fun idea. �I was also thinking in terms of wavetable sweeps as well. �I guess we could use velocity as the key to trigger it, since most of the real processing happens after the ROM has dumped it's samples.

We should put together a google doc to start tracking this stuff.

On Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:39 AM, "janoch23@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

Don't get me wrong, I'd love dynamic sample loading. I was just saying that if it makes things less likely to happen at all than a regular flash rom, I'd prefer the latter. Otoh, if there is a bigger interest in a dynamic ram solution, then that would be more likely to happen.

In fact, if there's another CPU on the ROM module controlling RAM emulating flash rom, why not make it truly dynamic and modify the bytes on the fly for true PWM waves and supersaw :-) Seriously, naive rectangular PWM shouldn't be too impossible... Let's replace all the RAM chips with GHz FPGAs! :-o (no, please don't)

janoch23@... [xl7]

13 Jul 2014 14:39

�

Don't get me wrong, I'd love dynamic sample loading. I was just saying that if it makes things less likely to happen at all than a regular flash rom, I'd prefer the latter. Otoh, if there is a bigger interest in a dynamic ram solution, then that would be more likely to happen.

In fact, if there's another CPU on the ROM module controlling RAM emulating flash rom, why not make it truly dynamic and modify the bytes on the fly for true PWM waves and supersaw :-) Seriously, naive rectangular PWM shouldn't be too impossible... Let's replace all the RAM chips with GHz FPGAs! :-o (no, please don't)

Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@... [xl7]

13 Jul 2014 10:26

�

I don't think a dynamically loaded sample set is any different than a rom based set, other than that you wouldn't need to keep an E5000 around to load samples. �Every part of the sound engine is sample based, so I can see being able to load samples dynamically as a welcome addition, if for not other reason that with a minor case modification I would never need to open my XL7 again to add samples. �We could also do some tricks to allow patches to address more samples than the 8mb by paging, dynamically changing address pointers to sounds.

A lot of the atmel chips can be clocked up to 100mhz, so I think we can respond quickly enough if we load things up in local ram and add some caching. �

Are the roms the same for all 2500 variants? I would feel better about hacking apart one of the XL1's etc than a command station.

The other things on the emulated chips would be patches, beats and demo riffs.

Did any of the other sampler ranges include chip burners as standard or are they all 'Optional'?

Andre

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM? [1 Attachment]

2014-07-14 by Andre Lewis

Still reading through the datasheet for the flash memory at this point. �Interesting, looks like 1 16 byte bus with a chip select. � Still reading it though.�

I'm not as worried about dynamically generating waveforms, but it would be interesting. �It would definitely be possible to do sample and glide I would think or noise.

How are multi-samples handled? �I could see just creating a multisample of a square wave and intentionally misusing the velocity to select different duty cycle samples or generating it.�

Jack, I'm curious what you have already. �Is it set up for the EMU devices already? �

I also like the idea of using the pin selects to emulate more than one board at a time, but wouldn't that be a configuration read at boot time rather than for every read?

Are the blank FLASH modules burned by the sampler the same as the actual ROMS used in say the MP-7? �;

You are also saying that each module has it's own user writeable flash for the actual programs?

As mentioned before, the beats and riffs are on a separate flash, and not writeable by the Ultra series.

Andre

On Monday, July 14, 2014 3:44 PM, "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

[Attachment(s) from Jack Pratt included below]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how the FLASH works and what is and isn't possible. So here are some thoughts...

A FLASH SIMM only contains WAVE and PRESET data in two separate address spaces. There is also electronics to decode the addressing pins and to buffer the inputs and outputs (since the P2K electronics is 5V and the FLASH chips are 3V3), but nothing active.

To the best of my knowledge an Ultra sampler can modify the contents of the WAVE memory and the P2K can modify the contents of the PRESET data. [Whether this is a hardware or a software limitation is not clear] In the WAVE memory there is details about�multiwaveforms (that is where in the WAVE memory the various components start) which is used by the P2K in generating presets.

My impression is that people mostly want to do the following things:

1. get access to as many (existing) ROMs as possible

2. compose their own ROMs

3. do sampler sorts of things

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image (existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

There are three 'ID' pins on the SIMM connector which determine which SIMM is being addressed. �Because of the P2K hardware implementation it is possible to tell from these three pins which SIMM is being addressed so that a single SIMM could be used to fill an entire 128MB memory space rather than a single 32MB space.

Therefore it seems appropriate to have a single SIMM with 128MB (WAVE) + 16MB (PRESET) memory that will emulate four SIMMs simultaneously.�;In order to do this a logic device would be an appropriate addition to the board to decode the ID pins and perform other functions.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds. However there are plenty of limitations to this.

Firstly a wave from generally consists of a one-time section and a looped section. The one-time section usually corresponds to the attack and decay portions of the envelope and the loop plays for the sustain and release portion. The SIMM doesn't inherently know where in the wave form the P2K is so its hard to modify the sound on the fly and make it sound appropriate.

Secondly if two notes of the same wave form are played at the same time then the SIMM will be addressed in two different locations of the wave form so that it is not possible for the SIMM to provide individual wave forms for each note severely limiting the usefulness of sounds modified on-the-fly.

Consequently the most optimal solution for 'on-the-fly' sounds would be to use them in 'drum' presets or �monophonic ones.

All this is fairly easy to do if you have the time and money. In fact I already have the design for something that would do all this.

!

From: "Bruce Manning brujerman@... [xl7]" <;xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Monday, 14 July 2014 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM? [1 Attachment]

�

[Attachment(s) from Bruce Manning included below]

This has been discussed before in the group. It would be fantastic to see it completed. Flash is faster.

Looking forward to hearing more about it.�

On Monday, July 14, 2014 5:15 AM, "Carl Lofgren carl_lofgren@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

[Attachment(s) from Carl Lofgren included below]

I'm very much interested in this project!

/C

'Jon Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]

14 Jul 2014 10:11

�

really don't need RAM for 'fast access' to the samples considering the speed
of the ROM involved. Flash memory i s going to end up being much faster than
the original ROMs.

here's a picture of an original 32 MB flash ROM:

http://www.theavenuesinstruments.com/i/Sampler/EmuFlash32_640.jpg

the Flash chips on it are Intel e28f640
datasheet here:
http://www.ic-on-line.cn/view_download.php?id=1511688&file=0257\ge28f640j3_164745.pdf

125 ns initial access speed
25 ns page reads

most papaers on using it refer to it as 120 ns speed. that is about 8 Mhz.

SD is 208 Mhz. I really don't see how there will be a speed problem that
will require yet another memory controller and interface on the card.

Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@yahoo.com [xl7]

14 Jul 2014 09:45

�

I tend to believe that it's worth the effort to make it dynamic. �A static rom would mean having �a hardware burner to create it. �If we have a solid plan I think it's doable.

Hardware, I think we should be using an atmel AVR chip, they are small low powered and fast enough to pump everything through. �They also can deal with SD cards easily, and possibly USB.
We also need some RAM on board for fast access to the samples. �I think 64mb is the largest sized rom? �Or is it 128mb? �a four layer card, some resister packs. �

Is there a crystal on the expansion cards or is it clocked by the EMU?

Are there any standard IC's on the ROMs or are they all proprietary EMU?

From the software side of things we need to reverse engineer some of the actual stored formats, like patches, beats, and riffs. �We should be able to deliver these directly from our shared bus as well.
We can get some of this from the initial power on of the device, I have a 2gs rigol which should be able to get the initial boot sequence. �

We might also have to report a proxy sample set to the EMU so we have time to load up the samples into RAM. �New sd cards seem to be able to dump across a lot of info quickly, so we could also cheap out and play directly from the sdcard, though I don't think this is a good idea.

We may need an app to package these on the host side, doing things like mapping patches to samples, or ensuring samples get loaded in a specific order.

I like your idea about cheap PWM, it's actually a fun idea. �I was also thinking in terms of wavetable sweeps as well. �I guess we could use velocity as the key to trigger it, since most of the real processing happens after the ROM has dumped it's samples.

We should put together a google doc to start tracking this stuff.

On Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:39 AM, "janoch23@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

�

Don't get me wrong, I'd love dynamic sample loading. I was just saying that if it makes things less likely to happen at all than a regular flash rom, I'd prefer the latter. Otoh, if there is a bigger interest in a dynamic ram solution, then that would be more likely to happen.

In fact, if there's another CPU on the ROM module controlling RAM emulating flash rom, why not make it truly dynamic and modify the bytes on the fly for true PWM waves and supersaw :-) Seriously, naive rectangular PWM shouldn't be too impossible... Let's replace all the RAM chips with GHz FPGAs! :-o (no, please don't)

janoch23@yahoo.se [xl7]

13 Jul 2014 14:39

�

Don't get me wrong, I'd love dynamic sample loading. I was just saying that if it makes things less likely to happen at all than a regular flash rom, I'd prefer the latter. Otoh, if there is a bigger interest in a dynamic ram solution, then that would be more likely to happen.

In fact, if there's another CPU on the ROM module controlling RAM emulating flash rom, why not make it truly dynamic and modify the bytes on the fly for true PWM waves and supersaw :-) Seriously, naive rectangular PWM shouldn't be too impossible... Let's replace all the RAM chips with GHz FPGAs! :-o (no, please don't)

Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@... [xl7]

13 Jul 2014 10:26

�

I don't think a dynamically loaded sample set is any different than a rom based set, other than that you wouldn't need to keep an E5000 around to load samples. �Every part of the sound engine is sample based, so I can see being able to load samples dynamically as a welcome addition, if for not other reason that with a minor case modification I would never need to open my XL7 again to add samples. �We could also do some tricks to allow patches to address more samples than the 8mb by paging, dynamically changing address pointers to sounds.

A lot of the atmel chips can be clocked up to 100mhz, so I think we can respond quickly enough if we load things up in local ram and add some caching. �

Are the roms the same for all 2500 variants? I would feel better about hacking apart one of the XL1's etc than a command station.

The other things on the emulated chips would be patches, beats and demo riffs.

Did any of the other sampler ranges include chip burners as standard or are they all 'Optional'?

Andre

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-15 by Jack Pratt

The Ultra sampler can write any set of wave forms to the FLASH SIMM - that may or may not be the image of an existing ROM. I understand that the Ultra also writes a dummy set of presets to the PRESET area of the SIMM which are then used for the P2K to know where the wave forms are to make use of them. If you do write a copy of an existing ROM then it would be easy enough to sysex the presets from that ROM to the P2K to load into the FLASH presets. But no such sysex' exist for your custom ROM - you would need to manually generate each one (unless you have software to help.

The beats and riffs and other guff are on the secondary FLASH which also holds the presets.

Because of the configuration/wiring the ID pins hold the same state for each SIMM socket. however the combined state of the three pins can be used to tell when the P2K is talking to a SIMM socket (with the read signal). Using this means continually sampling the ID pin state to know which bank of 32MB the P2K wants to address allowing ONE SIMM MODULE TO APPEAR AS UP TO FOUR SIMM MODULES AT THE SAME TIME.

Multisamples are automagically handled once the P2K knows that they are there - with each being associated with a specific MIDI note and being played back at normal sampling rate for that note and altered sample rate for adjacent notes. That may or may not create problems for playing sounds back live (what you call dynamically) depending on the implementation.

!

From: "Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@... [xl7]"
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Still reading through the datasheet for the flash memory at this point. �Interesting, looks like 1 16 byte bus with a chip select. � Still reading it though.�

I'm not as worried about dynamically generating waveforms, but it would be interesting. �It would definitely be possible to do sample and glide I would think or noise.

How are multi-samples handled? �I could see just creating a multisample of a square wave and intentionally misusing the velocity to select different duty cycle samples or generating it.�

Jack, I'm curious what you have already. �Is it set up for the EMU devices already? �

I also like the idea of using the pin selects to emulate more than one board at a time, but wouldn't that be a configuration read at boot time rather than for every read?

Are the blank FLASH modules burned by the sampler the same as the actual ROMS used in say the MP-7? �

You are also saying that each module has it's own user writeable flash for the actual programs?

As mentioned before, the beats and riffs are on a separate flash, and not writeable by the Ultra series.

Andre

On Monday, July 14, 2014 3:44 PM, "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

[Attachment(s) from Jack Pratt included below]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how the FLASH works and what is and isn't possible. So here are some thoughts...

A FLASH SIMM only contains WAVE and PRESET data in two separate address spaces. There is also electronics to decode the addressing pins and to buffer the inputs and outputs (since the P2K electronics is 5V and the FLASH chips are 3V3), but nothing active.

To the best of my knowledge an Ultra sampler can modify the contents of the WAVE memory and the P2K can modify the contents of the PRESET data. [Whether this is a hardware or a software limitation is not clear] In the WAVE memory there is details about�multiwaveforms (that is where in the WAVE memory the various components start) which is used by the P2K in generating presets.

My impression is that people mostly want to do the following things:

1. get access to as many (existing) ROMs as possible

2. compose their own ROMs

3. do sampler sorts of things

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image (existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

There are three 'ID' pins on the SIMM connector which determine which SIMM is being addressed. �Because of the P2K hardware implementation it is possible to tell from these three pins which SIMM is being addressed so that a single SIMM could be used to fill an entire 128MB memory space rather than a single 32MB space.

Therefore it seems appropriate to have a single SIMM with 128MB (WAVE) + 16MB (PRESET) memory that will emulate four SIMMs simultaneously.�In order to do this a logic device would be an appropriate addition to the board to decode the ID pins and perform other functions.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds. However there are plenty of limitations to this.

Firstly a wave from generally consists of a one-time section and a looped section. The one-time section usually corresponds to the attack and decay portions of the envelope and the loop plays for the sustain and release portion. The SIMM doesn't inherently know where in the wave form the P2K is so its hard to modify the sound on the fly and make it sound appropriate.

Secondly if two notes of the same wave form are played at the same time then the SIMM will be addressed in two different locations of the wave form so that it is not possible for the SIMM to provide individual wave forms for each note severely limiting the usefulness of sounds modified on-the-fly.

Consequently the most optimal solution for 'on-the-fly' sounds would be to use them in 'drum' presets or �monophonic ones.

All this is fairly easy to do if you have the time and money. In fact I already have the design for something that would do all this.

!

From: "Bruce Manning brujerman@... [xl7]"
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Monday, 14 July 2014 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM? [1 Attachment]

�

[Attachment(s) from Bruce Manning included below]

This has been discussed before in the group. It would be fantastic to see it completed. Flash is faster.

Looking forward to hearing more about it.�

On Monday, July 14, 2014 5:15 AM, "Carl Lofgren carl_lofgren@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

[Attachment(s) from Carl Lofgren included below]

I'm very much interested in this project!

/C

'Jon Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]

14 Jul 2014 10:11

�

really don't need RAM for 'fast access' to the samples considering the speed
of the ROM involved. Flash memory i s going to end up being much faster than
the original ROMs.

here's a picture of an original 32 MB flash ROM:

http://www.theavenuesinstruments.com/i/Sampler/EmuFlash32_640.jpg

the Flash chips on it are Intel e28f640
datasheet here:
http://www.ic-on-line.cn/view_download.php?id=1511688&file=0257\ge28f640j3_164745.pdf

125 ns initial access speed
25 ns page reads

most papaers on using it refer to it as 120 ns speed. that is about 8 Mhz.

SD is 208 Mhz. I really don't see how there will be a speed problem that
will require yet another memory controller and interface on the card.

Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@yahoo.com [xl7]

14 Jul 2014 09:45

�

I tend to believe that it's worth the effort to make it dynamic. �A static rom would mean having �a hardware burner to create it. �If we have �a solid plan I think it's doable.

Hardware, I think we should be using an atmel AVR chip, they are small low powered and fast enough to pump everything through. �They also can deal with SD cards easily, and possibly USB.
We also need some RAM on board for fast access to the samples. �I think 64mb is the largest sized rom? �Or is it 128mb? �a four layer card, some resister packs. �

Is there a crystal on the expansion cards or is it clocked by the EMU?

Are there any standard IC's on the ROMs or are they all proprietary EMU?

From the software side of things we need to reverse engineer some of the actual stored formats, like patches, beats, and riffs. �We should be able to deliver these directly from our shared bus as well.
We can get some of this from the initial power on of the device, I have a 2gs rigol which should be able to get the initial boot sequence. �

We might also have to report a proxy sample set to the EMU so we have time to load up the samples into RAM. �New sd cards seem to be able to dump across a lot of info quickly, so we could also cheap out and play directly from the sdcard, though I don't think this is a good idea.

We may need an app to package these on the host side, doing things like mapping patches to samples, or ensuring samples get loaded in a specific order.

I like your idea about cheap PWM, it's actually a fun idea. �I was also thinking in terms of wavetable sweeps as well. �I guess we could use velocity as the key to trigger it, since most of the real processing happens after the ROM has dumped it's samples.

We should put together a google doc to start tracking this stuff.

On Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:39 AM, "janoch23@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

Don't get me wrong, I'd love dynamic sample loading. I was just saying that if it makes things less likely to happen at all than a regular flash rom, I'd prefer the latter. Otoh, if there is a bigger interest in a dynamic ram solution, then that would be more likely to happen.

In fact, if there's another CPU on the ROM module controlling RAM emulating flash rom, why not make it truly dynamic and modify the bytes on the fly for true PWM waves and supersaw :-) Seriously, naive rectangular PWM shouldn't be too impossible... Let's replace all the RAM chips with GHz FPGAs! :-o (no, please don't)

janoch23@... [xl7]

13 Jul 2014 14:39

�

Don't get me wrong, I'd love dynamic sample loading. I was just saying that if it makes things less likely to happen at all than a regular flash rom, I'd prefer the latter. Otoh, if there is a bigger interest in a dynamic ram solution, then that would be more likely to happen.

In fact, if there's another CPU on the ROM module controlling RAM emulating flash rom, why not make it truly dynamic and modify the bytes on the fly for true PWM waves and supersaw :-) Seriously, naive rectangular PWM shouldn't be too impossible... Let's replace all the RAM chips with GHz FPGAs! :-o (no, please don't)

Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@... [xl7]

13 Jul 2014 10:26

�

I don't think a dynamically loaded sample set is any different than a rom based set, other than that you wouldn't need to keep an E5000 around to load samples. �Every part of the sound engine is sample based, so I can see being able to load samples dynamically as a welcome addition, if for not other reason that with a minor case modification I would never need to open my XL7 again to add samples. �We could also do some tricks to allow patches to address more samples than the 8mb by paging, dynamically changing address pointers to sounds.

A lot of the atmel chips can be clocked up to 100mhz, so I think we can respond quickly enough if we load things up in local ram and add some caching. �

Are the roms the same for all 2500 variants? I would feel better about hacking apart one of the XL1's etc than a command station.

The other things on the emulated chips would be patches, beats and demo riffs.

Did any of the other sampler ranges include chip burners as standard or are they all 'Optional'?

Andre

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-15 by janoch23@...

I only suggested dynamically modified samples, half jokingly, to get "global single-lfo rectangular pwm" and true noise say at waveforms #126 and #127. However, with 128 MB of sample ROM, you are much better off simply using samples for those, and not worrying about some clever scheme in the address decoder.

With regards to the micro on the SIMM, I think the other view is that having an SD card slot and figuring out the data format would be more useful since SD cards are cheap and abundant, and you'd have automatic compatibility with all kinds of PC operating systems via the ubiquitous card reader. This view doesn't really hold though because you'd be forced to open up your p2k / cs every time to pull out the SD card.

Personally I'd also worry that figuring out the data format is not simple at all and you'd risk having the project die out while people spend years trying to reverse engineer it, never fully figuring out every detail.

With your (Jack Pratt's) design at least everybody could duplicate existing ROMs and have something very useful "out of the box". Seeing how designing a large waveset is no mean feat, that would probably be the most useful.

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, <woodsworth1@...> wrote :

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image (existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds. However there are plenty of limitations to this.

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by Jack Pratt

the problem with the SD card is that the chips on the P2K can not inherently read it. So there would need to be some conversion from the SD card format to the memory mapped format used by the P2K. Of course if you put a micro on the board it could read from the SD card and rewrite FLASH as appropriate. Again you could use a special preset (accessing certain memory locations in the address map) to get the micro to copy one of any different ROM images into the FLASH based on which key is pressed. To let the user know when the copy is complete the "SIMM' could generate a stream of silence until the operation is over then produce a beep of some sort (if you are still holding the key down). If the new image(s) involve different presets/riffs etc then you would need to restart the P2K (because it only reads that information at startup).

but is this any better than doing it over USB?

You certainly wouldn't want to have the module opened to change the SD card all the time, and having a USB cable hanging out a hole seems an easy solution.

I believe that the preset ROM holds information that looks like the sysex infomation. Additionally I think that the wave ROM holds information that looks similar to the disk format of the E4/ultra series.

I am in the middle of writing software to dump the contents of a ROM SIMM so we can know for sure... will take a day or so.

!

From: "janoch23@... [xl7]" To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

I only suggested dynamically modified samples, half jokingly, to get "global single-lfo rectangular pwm" and true noise say at waveforms #126 and #127. However, with 128 MB of sample ROM, you are much better off simply using samples for those, and not worrying about some clever scheme in the address decoder.

With regards to the micro on the SIMM, I think the other view is that having an SD card slot and figuring out the data format would be more useful since SD cards are cheap and abundant, and you'd have automatic compatibility with all kinds of PC operating systems via the ubiquitous card reader. This view doesn't really hold though because you'd be forced to open up your p2k / cs every time to pull out the SD card.

Personally I'd also worry that figuring out the data format is not simple at all and you'd risk having the project die out while people spend years trying to reverse engineer it, never fully figuring out every detail.

With your (Jack Pratt's) design at least everybody could duplicate existing ROMs and have something very useful "out of the box". Seeing how designing a large waveset is no mean feat, that would probably be the most useful.

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image (existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds. However there are plenty of limitations to this.

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by Andre Lewis

I was thinking more along the lines of putting an actual sdcard slot on the back of the device. �There's plenty of room on the command stations, not sure about the rackmount p2k's though. �Then you can pop cards in and out at will. �Not to mention keep different sample sets around with the pop of a button. �And yes it would be a case mod, that shouldn't scare anyone.

Andre

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 5:07 PM, "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]" wrote:

the problem with the SD card is that the chips on the P2K can not inherently read it. So there would need to be some conversion from the SD card format to the memory mapped format used by the P2K. Of course if you put a micro on the board it could read from the SD card and rewrite FLASH as appropriate. Again you could use a special preset (accessing certain memory locations in the address map) to get the micro to copy one of any different ROM images into the FLASH based on which key is pressed. To let the user know when the copy is complete the "SIMM' could generate a stream of silence until the operation is over then produce a beep of some sort (if you are still holding the key down). If the new image(s) involve different presets/riffs etc then you would need to restart the P2K (because it only reads that information at startup).

but is this any better than doing it over USB?

You certainly wouldn't want to have the module opened to change the SD card all the time, and having a USB cable hanging out a hole seems an easy solution.

I believe that the preset ROM holds information that looks like the sysex infomation. Additionally I think that the wave ROM holds information that looks similar to the disk format of the E4/ultra series.

I am in the middle of writing software to dump the contents of a ROM SIMM so we can know for sure... will take a day or so.

!

From: "janoch23@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

I only suggested dynamically modified samples, half jokingly, to get "global single-lfo rectangular pwm" and true noise say at waveforms #126 and #127. However, with 128 MB of sample ROM, you are much better off simply using samples for those, and not worrying about some clever scheme in the address decoder.

With regards to the micro on the SIMM, I think the other view is that having an SD card slot and figuring out the data format would be more useful since SD cards are cheap and abundant, and you'd have automatic compatibility with all kinds of PC operating systems via the ubiquitous card reader. This view doesn't really hold though because you'd be forced to open up your p2k / cs every time to pull out the SD card.

Personally I'd also worry that figuring out the data format is not simple at all and you'd risk having the project die out while people spend years trying to reverse engineer it, never fully figuring out every detail.

With your (Jack Pratt's) design at least everybody could duplicate existing ROMs and have something very useful "out of the box". Seeing how designing a large waveset is no mean feat, that would probably be the most useful.

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image (existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds. However there are plenty of limitations to this.

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by Jon Carroll

didn't the flash rom use a serial I/O to read the flash?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

the problem with the SD card is that the chips on the P2K can not inherently 
read it. So there would need to be some conversion from the SD card format 
to the memory mapped format used by the P2K. Of course if you put a micro on 
the board it could read from the SD card and rewrite FLASH as appropriate. 
Again you could use a special preset (accessing certain memory locations in 
the address map) to get the micro to copy one of any different ROM images 
into the FLASH based on which key is pressed. To let the user know when the 
copy is complete the "SIMM' could generate a stream of silence until the 
operation is over then produce a beep of some sort (if you are still holding 
the key down). If the new image(s) involve different presets/riffs etc then 
you would need to restart the P2K (because it only reads that information at 
startup).

but is this any better than doing it over USB?

You certainly wouldn't want to have the module opened to change the SD card 
all the time, and having a USB cable hanging out a hole seems an easy 
solution.

I believe that the preset ROM holds information that looks like the sysex 
infomation. Additionally I think that the wave ROM holds information that 
looks similar to the disk format of the E4/ultra series.

I am in the middle of writing software to dump the contents of a ROM SIMM so 
we can know for sure... will take a day or so.

!

________________________________
 From: "janoch23@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

I only suggested dynamically modified samples, half jokingly, to get "global 
single-lfo rectangular pwm" and true noise say at waveforms #126 and #127. 
However, with 128 MB of sample ROM, you are much better off simply using 
samples for those, and not worrying about some clever scheme in the address 
decoder.

With regards to the micro on the SIMM, I think the other view is that having 
an SD card slot and figuring out the data format would be more useful since 
SD cards are cheap and abundant, and you'd have automatic compatibility with 
all kinds of PC operating systems via the ubiquitous card reader. This view 
doesn't really hold though because you'd be forced to open up your p2k / cs 
every time to pull out the SD card.

Personally I'd also worry that figuring out the data format is not simple at 
all and you'd risk having the project die out while people spend years 
trying to reverse engineer it, never fully figuring out every detail.

With your (Jack Pratt's) design at least everybody could duplicate existing 
ROMs and have something very useful "out of the box". Seeing how designing a 
large waveset is no mean feat, that would probably be the most useful.

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, <woodsworth1@...> wrote :

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow 
the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image 
(existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds. 
However there are plenty of limitations to this.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by Jack Pratt

The SIMMs are parallel (address mapped) interfaces. Providing a SD card socket is only useful if you provide hardware to convert the SD card (serial) contents into a compatible parallel format. It seems easier to just provide a USB interface and program the SIMM via a computer.

From: "'Jon Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2014 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

didn't the flash rom use a serial I/O to read the flash?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

the problem with the SD card is that the chips on the P2K can not inherently
read it. So there would need to be some conversion from the SD card format
to the memory mapped format used by the P2K. Of course if you put a micro on
the board it could read from the SD card and rewrite FLASH as appropriate.
Again you could use a special preset (accessing certain memory locations in
the address map) to get the micro to copy one of any different ROM images
into the FLASH based on which key is pressed. To let the user know when the
copy is complete the "SIMM' could generate a stream of silence until the
operation is over then produce a beep of some sort (if you are still holding
the key down). If the new image(s) involve different presets/riffs etc then
you would need to restart the P2K (because it only reads that information at
startup).

but is this any better than doing it over USB?

You certainly wouldn't want to have the module opened to change the SD card
all the time, and having a USB cable hanging out a hole seems an easy
solution.

I believe that the preset ROM holds information that looks like the sysex
infomation. Additionally I think that the wave ROM holds information that
looks similar to the disk format of the E4/ultra series.

I am in the middle of writing software to dump the contents of a ROM SIMM so
we can know for sure... will take a day or so.

!

________________________________
From: "janoch23@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

I only suggested dynamically modified samples, half jokingly, to get "global
single-lfo rectangular pwm" and true noise say at waveforms #126 and #127.
However, with 128 MB of sample ROM, you are much better off simply using
samples for those, and not worrying about some clever scheme in the address
decoder.

With regards to the micro on the SIMM, I think the other view is that having
an SD card slot and figuring out the data format would be more useful since
SD cards are cheap and abundant, and you'd have automatic compatibility with
all kinds of PC operating systems via the ubiquitous card reader. This view
doesn't really hold though because you'd be forced to open up your p2k / cs
every time to pull out the SD card.

Personally I'd also worry that figuring out the data format is not simple at
all and you'd risk having the project die out while people spend years
trying to reverse engineer it, never fully figuring out every detail.

With your (Jack Pratt's) design at least everybody could duplicate existing
ROMs and have something very useful "out of the box". Seeing how designing a
large waveset is no mean feat, that would probably be the most useful.

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow
the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image
(existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds.
However there are plenty of limitations to this.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by Przemysław Węgrzyn

BTW, is the pin-out of those SIMM modules documented anywhere? Any reverse engineering results available?

--
Przemek

On 16/07/14 04:58, Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7] wrote:

�

The SIMMs are parallel (address mapped) interfaces. Providing a SD card socket is only useful if you provide hardware to convert the SD card (serial) contents into a compatible parallel format. It seems easier to just provide a USB interface and program the SIMM via a computer.

From: "'Jon Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2014 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

didn't the flash rom use a serial I/O to read the flash?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

the problem with the SD card is that the chips on the P2K can not inherently
read it. So there would need to be some conversion from the SD card format
to the memory mapped format used by the P2K. Of course if you put a micro on
the board it could read from the SD card and rewrite FLASH as appropriate.
Again you could use a special preset (accessing certain memory locations in
the address map) to get the micro to copy one of any different ROM images
into the FLASH based on which key is pressed. To let the user know when the
copy is complete the "SIMM' could generate a stream of silence until the
operation is over then produce a beep of some sort (if you are still holding
the key down). If the new image(s) involve different presets/riffs etc then
you would need to restart the P2K (because it only reads that information at
startup).

but is this any better than doing it over USB?

You certainly wouldn't want to have the module opened to change the SD card
all the time, and having a USB cable hanging out a hole seems an easy
solution.

I believe that the preset ROM holds information that looks like the sysex
infomation. Additionally I think that the wave ROM holds information that
looks similar to the disk format of the E4/ultra series.

I am in the middle of writing software to dump the contents of a ROM SIMM so
we can know for sure... will take a day or so.

!

________________________________
From: "janoch23@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

I only suggested dynamically modified samples, half jokingly, to get "global
single-lfo rectangular pwm" and true noise say at waveforms #126 and #127.
However, with 128 MB of sample ROM, you are much better off simply using
samples for those, and not worrying about some clever scheme in the address
decoder.

With regards to the micro on the SIMM, I think the other view is that having
an SD card slot and figuring out the data format would be more useful since
SD cards are cheap and abundant, and you'd have automatic compatibility with
all kinds of PC operating systems via the ubiquitous card reader. This view
doesn't really hold though because you'd be forced to open up your p2k / cs
every time to pull out the SD card.

Personally I'd also worry that figuring out the data format is not simple at
all and you'd risk having the project die out while people spend years
trying to reverse engineer it, never fully figuring out every detail.

With your (Jack Pratt's) design at least everybody could duplicate existing
ROMs and have something very useful "out of the box". Seeing how designing a
large waveset is no mean feat, that would probably be the most useful.

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow
the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image
(existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds.
However there are plenty of limitations to this.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by D F Tweedie

Or just a cable coming out of the unit to a receptacle/ modified reader device?

�

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.

From: "Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@yahoo.com [xl7]"
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

I was thinking more along the lines of putting an actual sdcard slot on the back of the device. �There's plenty of room on the command stations, not sure about the rackmount p2k's though. �Then you can pop cards in and out at will. �Not to mention keep different sample sets around with the pop of a button. �And yes it would be a case mod, that shouldn't scare anyone.

Andre

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 5:07 PM, "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@yahoo.com [xl7]" wrote:

�

the problem with the SD card is that the chips on the P2K can not inherently read it. So there would need to be some conversion from the SD card format to the memory mapped format used by the P2K. Of course if you put a micro on the board it could read from the SD card and rewrite FLASH as appropriate. Again you could use a special preset (accessing certain memory locations in the address map) to get the micro to copy one of any different ROM images into the FLASH based on which key is pressed. To let the user know when the copy is complete the "SIMM' could generate a stream of silence until the operation is over then produce a beep of some sort (if you are still holding the key down). If the new image(s) involve different presets/riffs etc then you would need to restart the P2K (because it only reads that information at startup).

but is this any better than doing it over USB?

You certainly wouldn't want to have the module opened to change the SD card all the time, and having a USB cable hanging out a hole seems an easy solution.

I believe that the preset ROM holds information that looks like the sysex infomation. Additionally I think that the wave ROM holds information that looks similar to the disk format of the E4/ultra series.

I am in the middle of writing software to dump the contents of a ROM SIMM so we can know for sure... will take a day or so.

!

From: "janoch23@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

I only suggested dynamically modified samples, half jokingly, to get "global single-lfo rectangular pwm" and true noise say at waveforms #126 and #127. However, with 128 MB of sample ROM, you are much better off simply using samples for those, and not worrying about some clever scheme in the address decoder.

With regards to the micro on the SIMM, I think the other view is that having an SD card slot and figuring out the data format would be more useful since SD cards are cheap and abundant, and you'd have automatic compatibility with all kinds of PC operating systems via the ubiquitous card reader. This view doesn't really hold though because you'd be forced to open up your p2k / cs every time to pull out the SD card.

Personally I'd also worry that figuring out the data format is not simple at all and you'd risk having the project die out while people spend years trying to reverse engineer it, never fully figuring out every detail.

With your (Jack Pratt's) design at least everybody could duplicate existing ROMs and have something very useful "out of the box". Seeing how designing a large waveset is no mean feat, that would probably be the most useful.

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image (existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds. However there are plenty of limitations to this.

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by D F Tweedie

Would there be a way to multipurpose the existing USB connection?

�

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.

From: "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]"
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

The SIMMs are parallel (address mapped) interfaces. Providing a SD card socket is only useful if you provide hardware to convert the SD card (serial) contents into a compatible parallel format. It seems easier to just provide a USB interface and program the SIMM via a computer.

From: "'Jon Carroll' joncarroll@...m [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 16 July 2014 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

didn't the flash rom use a serial I/O to read the flash?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2014 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

the problem with the SD card is that the chips on the P2K can not inherently
read it. So there would need to be some conversion from the SD card format
to the memory mapped format used by the P2K. Of course if you put a micro on
the board it could read from the SD card and rewrite FLASH as appropriate.
Again you could use a special preset (accessing certain memory locations in
the address map) to get the micro to copy one of any different ROM images
into the FLASH based on which key is pressed. To let the user know when the
copy is complete the "SIMM' could generate a stream of silence until the
operation is over then produce a beep of some sort (if you are still holding
the key down). If the new image(s) involve different presets/riffs etc then
you would need to restart the P2K (because it only reads that information at
startup).

but is this any better than doing it over USB?

You certainly wouldn't want to have the module opened to change the SD card
all the time, and having a USB cable hanging out a hole seems an easy
solution.

I believe that the preset ROM holds information that looks like the sysex
infomation. Additionally I think that the wave ROM holds information that
looks similar to the disk format of the E4/ultra series.

I am in the middle of writing software to dump the contents of a ROM SIMM so
we can know for sure... will take a day or so.

!

________________________________
From: "janoch23@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2014 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

I only suggested dynamically modified samples, half jokingly, to get "global
single-lfo rectangular pwm" and true noise say at waveforms #126 and #127.
However, with 128 MB of sample ROM, you are much better off simply using
samples for those, and not worrying about some clever scheme in the address
decoder.

With regards to the micro on the SIMM, I think the other view is that having
an SD card slot and figuring out the data format would be more useful since
SD cards are cheap and abundant, and you'd have automatic compatibility with
all kinds of PC operating systems via the ubiquitous card reader. This view
doesn't really hold though because you'd be forced to open up your p2k / cs
every time to pull out the SD card.

Personally I'd also worry that figuring out the data format is not simple at
all and you'd risk having the project die out while people spend years
trying to reverse engineer it, never fully figuring out every detail.

With your (Jack Pratt's) design at least everybody could duplicate existing
ROMs and have something very useful "out of the box". Seeing how designing a
large waveset is no mean feat, that would probably be the most useful.

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, <woodsworth1@...> wrote :

The best way to do this (IMO) is to have a micro on the SIMM that will allow
the FLASH to be 'reprogrammed' via USB. With appropriate software any image
(existing or composed) could be transferred to the SIMM.

Finally the logic device can be used to provide access to on-the-fly sounds.
However there are plenty of limitations to this.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by janoch23@...

The microcontroller needs some storage from which to load sample data into the SRAMs emulating Flash chips at bootup. That storage could be an SD card. In that case all you need for a panel mount SD slot would be an SD extension cable.

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by Jack Pratt

It would be too expensive to provide 32MB of SRAM, even VSRAM to simulate a single slot. It is better to have FLASH memory which is reprogrammed by the microcontroller on cue. (either from an SD card under the appropriate circumstances or via USB).

From: "janoch23@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2014 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

The microcontroller needs some storage from which to load sample data into the SRAMs emulating Flash chips at bootup. That storage could be an SD card. In that case all you need for a panel mount SD slot would be an SD extension cable.

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by Jack Pratt

...

That seems a little pointless. I have (a long time ago) uploaded a file to the P2K group including a description of the pin functions called "SIMM pinouts.txt". Its in one of the sub folders there.

From a reading point of view, a FLASH device looks like a linear address map (although through special commands there is often other information that you can read in a non-linear fashion). From a writing point of view, it is written by blocks/pages which tend to be 64K words in size (but can vary from device to device) although some devices have a bunch of smaller pages at one end of the address range. The reason for the paging is not so much writing but for erasing. A single command can either erase a page, erase a lock or erase the entire device depending on the way the device is laid out.Erasing sets all bytes to 0xFF, and writing changes bits from '1' to '0'. You can write memory locations multiple times but the only changes that will be effected are bit transitions from '1' to '0'. That is, if you write a byte from 0xFF to 0xF0, the result will be 0xF0, but if you then write 0xAA to that 0xF0 byte, the result will be 0xA0.�

From: "Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@... [xl7]"
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2014 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Exactly. �One ARM chip to deal with the transforms for the data, and loading samples/patches/etc dynamically from SD. �Since there are plenty of ARM libs for dealing with SD, it becomes a matter of getting the right signal to the right pin on the device at the right time. �

The flash on the cards seems to use a 16bit hardware bus, using paging to get to different parts of the flash memory. �Still a little confusing, so reading through this again. �But it definitely seems there are a lot more pins on the expansion card than there needs to be. �It makes me think that either they break out the flash chips to their own set of pins, or there are a lot of unconnected or ground/vcc pins. �The flash also apparently has it's own processor and command set for reading/writing the chip. �Since it looks like the flash can take either direct pin writes or using the command set, we would need to figure out which one the the expansion is wired for. �

Anyone have an expansion card out that they could take a picture of with a light behind it? �Front and back. Preferably high resolution. �Might not see anything with a four layer card, but might show vias and the traces.

Andre

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 12:04 PM, "janoch23@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

The microcontroller needs some storage from which to load sample data into the SRAMs emulating Flash chips at bootup. That storage could be an SD card. In that case all you need for a panel mount SD slot would be an SD extension cable.

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by janoch23@...

Ok, an old post of yours mention DRAM. Was hoping maybe you had figured out some clever scheme to squeeze in refresh cycles while the P2k was busy doing other things.

Anyway, are you back to working on this? Can we help in any way to make it happen, such as donating money?

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, <woodsworth1@...> wrote :

It would be too expensive to provide 32MB of SRAM, even VSRAM to simulate a single slot. It is better to have FLASH memory which is reprogrammed by the microcontroller on cue. (either from an SD card under the appropriate circumstances or via USB).

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by Jack Pratt

OK... confusion.

The SIMM needs to have FLASH. There really isn't a better way to provide sufficient memory space for a full 32MB SIMM with anything else, unless you have a special project that doesn't need 32MB (eg, live feed sound).

The question is how you reprogram the FLASH - typically a microcontroller would be used (because the need to have an separate Ultra sampler and swap SIMMs between modules is a pain). If the microcontroller has a USB interface then you could transfer an image via USB. If it has an SD card (spi) interface then you could get it to transfer an image from the SD card. To make it useful you need to have some way of getting it to make the change when you want it - not at other times (making a change when you an SD card is present on power up is possible but requires access to the SD card slot whereas a USB interface could be available at any time). After you reprogram the SIMM the system needs to be powered off because the operating system ONLY READS THE CONTENTS OF PRESET MEMORY AT POWER UP - this is to avoid bus contention when sounds are being played back.

To allow the micro to program the FLASH you need to be able to block the address lines so that the P2K module is not causing contention on the address pins - since you also need to have some logic on the board to decode the signals then it makes sense to use a logic device for the buffering. If you do this then you can have the logic device do some special things on the same SIMM - like recognise multiple SIMM slots for the one device (ie up to 128MB of wave data), or recognise certain addresses for special functions [like telling the micro which SD card image to program, or provide 'live' modified sounds - such as from the micro via USB or SD card --> but these sounds are limited in what can be accomplished without changes to the operating system]

To make a SIMM really useful it needs to be used with the module closed. This avoids the problem of damage to the module with it open. having an SD card on a flying lead is just BAD. The best solution would be to have a micro SD card on the SIMM which you can ALSO program (download to) via USB and use special addresses in the SIMM memory map to tell it which image to copy from SD card to FLASH memory. That is one preset would address those memory locations depending on which key was pressed. The output from that preset would be a 'bad' sound if the FLASH write couldn't happen or failed, or a 'happy' sound after a successful transfer of image.

This arrangement should make everyone happy...�

From: "janoch23@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2014 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

But aren't you talking about using the ARM as a real-time software emulator of the Flash chips? Me thinks it would be very hard to make the ARM work like that, emulating a >10Mhz bus in software, esp. with respects to signal latency, not knowing what the P2k architecture expects. An FPGA maybe, but RAM chips seems like something more likely to work imho. And even if SD cards are spec'ed at 208MHz, isn't that only for burst transfers?

It would seem like a good idea, however, to make the microcontroller accept large SD cards (like 32GB SDHC, or maybe even that is getting old these days), and then add a simple one-button interface (or something) for selecting which 128 MB set of multiple sets stored on the SD is loaded at boot.

But this is assuming there is still hardware development to be done. From what I understand, Jack Pratt already have the design more or less ready for production?

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Exactly. �One ARM chip to deal with the transforms for the data, and loading samples/patches/etc dynamically from SD. �Since there are plenty of ARM libs for dealing with SD, it becomes a matter of getting the right signal to the right pin on the device at the right time. �

The flash on the cards seems to use a 16bit hardware bus, using paging to get to different parts of the flash memory. �Still a little confusing, so reading through this again. But it definitely seems there are a lot more pins on the expansion card than there needs to be. �It makes me think that either they break out the flash chips to their own set of pins, or there are a lot of unconnected or ground/vcc pins. �The flash also apparently has it's own processor and command set for reading/writing the chip. �Since it looks like the flash can take either direct pin writes or using the command set, we would need to figure out which one the the expansion is wired for. �

Anyone have an expansion card out that they could take a picture of with a light behind it? �Front and back. Preferably high resolution. �Might not see anything with a four layer card, but might show vias and the traces.

Andre

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-16 by Jack Pratt

On the board I have designed there is a SDRAM part. This is because the micro I selected supports SDRAM and having the SDRAM �could speed up USB transfers and writing to the FLASH memory. It was not for the P2K hardware to access.

At the moment I am really annoyed at atmel because the upgrade of the firmware in my JTAGICE3 'succeeded' but has turned it into a brick which the computer can not recognise. This is stopping me from dumping the contents of a ROM SIMM which will tell what the image looks like.

If I can figure out what people really want in a FLASH SIMM then perhaps I can work further on this project...

From: "janoch23@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2014 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Ok, an old post of yours mention DRAM. Was hoping maybe you had figured out some clever scheme to squeeze in refresh cycles while the P2k was busy doing other things.

Anyway, are you back to working on this? Can we help in any way to make it happen, such as donating money?

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

It would be too expensive to provide 32MB of SRAM, even VSRAM to simulate a single slot. It is better to have FLASH memory which is reprogrammed by the microcontroller on cue. (either from an SD card under the appropriate circumstances or via USB).

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-17 by Andre Lewis

Ah just found your flash rom images from 2010:�Yahoo! Groups

�

Yahoo! Groups

Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

View on groups.yahoo.com

Preview by Yahoo

�

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:40 PM, "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

On the board I have designed there is a SDRAM part. This is because the micro I selected supports SDRAM and having the SDRAM �could speed up USB transfers and writing to the FLASH memory. It was not for the P2K hardware to access.

At the moment I am really annoyed at atmel because the upgrade of the firmware in my JTAGICE3 'succeeded' but has turned it into a brick which the computer can not recognise. This is stopping me from dumping the contents of a ROM SIMM which will tell what the image looks like.

If I can figure out what people really want in a FLASH SIMM then perhaps I can work further on this project...

From: "janoch23@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2014 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Ok, an old post of yours mention DRAM. Was hoping maybe you had figured out some clever scheme to squeeze in refresh cycles while the P2k was busy doing other things.

Anyway, are you back to working on this? Can we help in any way to make it happen, such as donating money?

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

It would be too expensive to provide 32MB of SRAM, even VSRAM to simulate a single slot. It is better to have FLASH memory which is reprogrammed by the microcontroller on cue. (either from an SD card under the appropriate circumstances or via USB).

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-17 by Andre Lewis

sdram doesn't appear to be very expensive:�

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/ISSI/IS42S32400E-6TL/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs6Aik9Fp479t%252bl%252bQagjxNmUHTHvf3qmPA%3d

Didn't spend a lot of time checking into it though. �

I understand the USB option, I don't think I would want it plugged into the computer at the same time as the emu was on, I worry about power isolation.

I still like the SD card option with a a case modification (A nibbler is inexpensive) since it allows standalone operation, and is operating system agnostic. �

The AVR you show on the schematic supports SPI so it should be fairly simple to get an SDCard on board, perhaps support both SDCard via ribbon cable and an external mount, and a USB option?

Andre

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:31 AM, "Andre Lewis bassmeister3000@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

Ah just found your flash rom images from 2010:�Yahoo! Groups

�

Yahoo! Groups

Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

View on groups.yahoo.com

Preview by Yahoo

�

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:40 PM, "Jack Pratt woodsworth1@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

On the board I have designed there is a SDRAM part. This is because the micro I selected supports SDRAM and having the SDRAM �could speed up USB transfers and writing to the FLASH memory. It was not for the P2K hardware to access.

At the moment I am really annoyed at atmel because the upgrade of the firmware in my JTAGICE3 'succeeded' but has turned it into a brick which the computer can not recognise. This is stopping me from dumping the contents of a ROM SIMM which will tell what the image looks like.

If I can figure out what people really want in a FLASH SIMM then perhaps I can work further on this project...

From: "janoch23@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2014 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

�

Ok, an old post of yours mention DRAM. Was hoping maybe you had figured out some clever scheme to squeeze in refresh cycles while the P2k was busy doing other things.

Anyway, are you back to working on this? Can we help in any way to make it happen, such as donating money?

---In xl7@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

It would be too expensive to provide 32MB of SRAM, even VSRAM to simulate a single slot. It is better to have FLASH memory which is reprogrammed by the microcontroller on cue. (either from an SD card under the appropriate circumstances or via USB).

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-17 by janoch23@...

Can we have a vote? There's a Yahoo! poll function here somewhere. Be sure to notify the P2k group as well, and perhaps some other forums like gearsluts.

What price per module are you aiming for? The lower the better, not because I'm cheap but because every dollar less will mean you can get more pre-orders making it more likely to happen.

My guess is that you would be able to sell anything that allows at least 8MB of user samples, but 128MB is of course a lot better. I would suspect that the difference in interest between 32MB and 128MB is not that big, so if 32MB makes the price lower, that's the way to go. And 32MB should make it possible to duplicate existing ROMs (I mean, for backup, of course...), so, much better than 8MB. Otoh, there probably isn't a lot of difference in price between 32MB and 128MB of chips anyway.

Being able to store user presets is vital, not being able to would be a deal breaker for me. But having to dump your presets via MIDI and manually put them back onto the SD would be ok, although it would be nicer if they were stored back onto the SD when you switched ROMs.

There only exists 23 different ROMs from E-Mu right? So even a 1GB SD card could store all of them and still have plenty of space left for 8 x 32MB user banks. That means having an SD slot for interchangable SD cards is kind of unnecessary, apart from the OS compatibility thing. A standard Mass Storage Device interface would solve this, and libraries are available for many chips.

Personally I am much more interested in user samples than in existing ROMs. I would buy a 1MB device, too!

To save on costs, all configuration could be done via USB. I mean stuff like selecting which 4x32MB images are loaded at bootup, if you go for 128MB. Personally I don't see the need for a "happy sound" to acknowledge successful upload, I would be happy with a "status: ok" in a text file though the MSD, if that keeps costs down.

Mandatory case mods are rarely popular and to be avoided.

You will have a much larger "market" if there is no Ultra sampler necessary, so USB is the way to go.

Like I said in my email, I think crowd funding could work for this type of project.

In any case, just get *anything* out there that supports user samples, and we'll buy! :)

Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-17 by janoch23@...

Btw, I just thought of something, if you're going to have a programmable logic chip for buffering the bus lines, and if there are blocks left, you could make a comparator that outputs a trigger every time the first word of a particular sample is accessed. That would be very useful for triggering a side-chain compressor effect, for instance. (since the trigger has no latency, compared to MIDI)

I mean gate the address strobe signal to a solder pad every time i.e. address 0x10000 is on A0-A24, then the user can put a bass drum sample starting at 0x10000. Or even better, have one at 0x10000, another trigger responding to 0x20000, a third one at 0x30000, etc.

This could also be used to interface analog gear via the triggers, perhaps expanding your market? You don't have to put the buffer chip on the card, just put the solder pads on the boards and anybody who's interested can solder the buffer chip themselves.

Re: [xl7] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-17 by Andre Lewis

I like the poll(s) idea!

If he's done with the hardware side of it (has printed boards) then it's a moot point. �I'll happily buy whatever you have!

If not, then adding a breakout for an SD card reader to it is trivial. �a little less trivial to actually have a breakout and an actual sdcard on the expansion board, but doable. �SD Cards aren't ideal for long term storage though, since they all atrophy over time with writes, and some of the newer ones atrophy with reads as well. �

The other thing that's been bothering me about the USB, is that the command stations already have USB, and there aren't any spare holes to pop out another USB cable, so I am still looking at a case mod. �I'm also worried about power, since USB is a powered protocol, and that would mean protection circuits on the expansion card. �And of course, I am running Linux, which honestly isn't a big deal for the type of USB support needed by the AVR chips, but illustrates the point that you still need drivers for FTDI, so now the expansion card has to worry about that as well.

Unless there is some magical way to connect to the existing USB?

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 3:43 AM, "janoch23@... [xl7]" wrote:

�

Can we have a vote? There's a Yahoo! poll function here somewhere. Be sure to notify the P2k group as well, and perhaps some other forums like gearsluts.

What price per module are you aiming for? The lower the better, not because I'm cheap but because every dollar less will mean you can get more pre-orders making it more likely to happen.

My guess is that you would be able to sell anything that allows at least 8MB of user samples, but 128MB is of course a lot better. I would suspect that the difference in interest between 32MB and 128MB is not that big, so if 32MB makes the price lower, that's the way to go. And 32MB should make it possible to duplicate existing ROMs (I mean, for backup, of course...), so, much better than 8MB. Otoh, there probably isn't a lot of difference in price between 32MB and 128MB of chips anyway.

Being able to store user presets is vital, not being able to would be a deal breaker for me. But having to dump your presets via MIDI and manually put them back onto the SD would be ok, although it would be nicer if they were stored back onto the SD when you switched ROMs.

There only exists 23 different ROMs from E-Mu right? So even a 1GB SD card could store all of them and still have plenty of space left for 8 x 32MB user banks. That means having an SD slot for interchangable SD cards is kind of unnecessary, apart from the OS compatibility thing. A standard Mass Storage Device interface would solve this, and libraries are available for many chips.

Personally I am much more interested in user samples than in existing ROMs. I would buy a 1MB device, too!

To save on costs, all configuration could be done via USB. I mean stuff like selecting which 4x32MB images are loaded at bootup, if you go for 128MB. Personally I don't see the need for a "happy sound" to acknowledge successful upload, I would be happy with a "status: ok" in a text file though the MSD, if that keeps costs down.

Mandatory case mods are rarely popular and to be avoided.

You will have a much larger "market" if there is no Ultra sampler necessary, so USB is the way to go.

Like I said in my email, I think crowd funding could work for this type of project.

In any case, just get *anything* out there that supports user samples, and we'll buy! :)

Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-07-19 by ro_commandstation@...

I'd be down for this.

Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-10-03 by perostec@...

wh00 there's some progress I see. Definitely make a croudfunding, indiegogo / kickstarter OR preorders.

Definitely down for this! :)

Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-10-09 by napravobg@...

Yes, I would be up for a couple or three also.

richard
bg

RE: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-10-09 by geoffrey szablot

Also still interested

To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
From: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 00:43:28 -0700
Subject: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

Yes, I would be up for a couple or three also.

richard
bg

On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:19 AM, napravobg@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

�

Also definitely interested.. Maybe buy three.

richard

bg

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-12-07 by George G

Already have 3 command stations, i will need 12 pieces!

Lets do it guys, you'll a business!

Thanks

Sent from my iPhone

On 07.12.2014, at 19:15, "Jason Budris jsunbud@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

�

Interested

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:19 AM, napravobg@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

�

Also definitely interested.. Maybe buy three.

richard

bg

Re: [xl7] Re: Fwd: [p2k] Any interest remaining in a self-programming FLASH SIMM?

2014-12-07 by George G

These discutions were on the table for years now and no sign in practical side so lets make some real steps further with it...

Sent from my iPhone

On 07.12.2014, at 20:39, "Bruno brunorc@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

�

2014-12-07 20:08 GMT+01:00 George G pluto_ro@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:

Already have 3 command stations, i will need 12 pieces!

If I recall correctly, one Flash SIMM would be supposed to act as one, two or four ROMs, so you would only need three.

That's being said, it's hard to predict anything, since they don't exist yet.

Bruno