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Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-12 by J. Larry Hendry

OK, I'm gonna step up to the plate on this because it has been something I
have been thinking about for a while.  I'll say what I think a good panner
fader should do.  Then, I will offer a very inexpensive solution in my mind
that can also be a useful utility module when not in use as a panner fader:

What should a panner fader do:
- Use a single input signal
- Allow each control to be annenuated for desired effect and vaioed input
out requirements.
- Allow each control to be biased to contol the amount of signal overlap, or
lack there of in the pan / fade
- Support different response curves.
- not add a lot of real estate for specialized VCAs.

So, while Paul's does plan a MOTM-130, which I will own, I have another
suggestion.  Instead of creating a VCA fader panner, create a fader panner
control voltage module.  This single 1U wide module would work with your
external control signal and not act as a VCA, but instead process the
control signals into the format desireable to control your already existing
quaility VCAs.

Unless I am overlooking something completely obvious, the processing of the
CV signal is no more than how much gain and how much offset.  And, if you
use a single input, you want an internal inverter for the second CV
processing.

So, the module looks like this:  4 knobs and 4 jacks.  It is a CV processing
module.  The 4 controls are offset A, gain A, offset B, gain B. I'd probably
make all 4 controls reversing.  The gain of each is 2.0 so you have the
flexibility to take 5 volt signals to a full 10 volt swing or attenuate a 10
volt signal to 5 V.  The offset is probably +/-5 volts.  2 of the 4 jacks
are the 2 CV ouputs that go to our VCAs.  One input jack is required. for A
and B.

A forth jack could very easily be the B channel input normalled from A so
that for panning and fading, only one input source is required.  Or, a forth
jack could be an output that was equal to A+B.  In this case a 3rd voltage
is generated that represents a voltage that could be used "fill in the gap"
between two faded signals or just the opposite.

The advantage of the B input jack is that this module is now a neat little 2
channel CV processor that can be used anytime you want to bias or attenuate
or apply some gain to a CV in a 2-in, 2-out format.  The advantage of the
A+B output is a unique 3rd CV so that a 3rd VCA can be entered into the
equation in some creative fashion. Real estate does not support 5 jacks.

So, that is my 2 cents on the subject.  This would be a simple module to
construct.  Essentially if is a handfull of op amps wired up in the correct
configuration.  You put one of these next to a MOTM-190 and you have panning
fading with maximum control in only 2U.  And, you get to take advanage of
VCAs you already own,

Larry H (seeing a Stooge panel run for a simple CV DIY processor module).

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-12 by The Old Crow

I built most of this as a one-off module for Robert Rich.  Perhaps I 
should make more (and adjust a few things).

Crow
/**/

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, J. Larry Hendry wrote:

> OK, I'm gonna step up to the plate on this because it has been something I

Re: Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-12 by Mike Marsh

I very much like Larry's idea.  In fact, I prefer it to the 130 
because it can apply to any CV.  More flexible.  I have Many VCAs in 
my rig now as it is.

BTW, for panning I use John B's new dual VCA.  With the new MOTM CV 
processing unit, Stooge Designed, that little unit would really kick 
butt.

Mike

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "J. Larry Hendry" <jlarryh@i...> wrote:
> OK, I'm gonna step up to the plate on this because it has been 
something I
> have been thinking about for a while.  I'll say what I think a 
good panner
> fader should do.  Then, I will offer a very inexpensive solution 
in my mind
> that can also be a useful utility module when not in use as a 
panner fader:
> 
> What should a panner fader do:
> - Use a single input signal
> - Allow each control to be annenuated for desired effect and 
vaioed input
> out requirements.
> - Allow each control to be biased to contol the amount of signal 
overlap, or
> lack there of in the pan / fade
> - Support different response curves.
> - not add a lot of real estate for specialized VCAs.
> 
> So, while Paul's does plan a MOTM-130, which I will own, I have 
another
> suggestion.  Instead of creating a VCA fader panner, create a 
fader panner
> control voltage module.  This single 1U wide module would work 
with your
> external control signal and not act as a VCA, but instead process 
the
> control signals into the format desireable to control your already 
existing
> quaility VCAs.
> 
> Unless I am overlooking something completely obvious, the 
processing of the
> CV signal is no more than how much gain and how much offset.  And, 
if you
> use a single input, you want an internal inverter for the second CV
> processing.
> 
> So, the module looks like this:  4 knobs and 4 jacks.  It is a CV 
processing
> module.  The 4 controls are offset A, gain A, offset B, gain B. 
I'd probably
> make all 4 controls reversing.  The gain of each is 2.0 so you 
have the
> flexibility to take 5 volt signals to a full 10 volt swing or 
attenuate a 10
> volt signal to 5 V.  The offset is probably +/-5 volts.  2 of the 
4 jacks
> are the 2 CV ouputs that go to our VCAs.  One input jack is 
required. for A
> and B.
> 
> A forth jack could very easily be the B channel input normalled 
from A so
> that for panning and fading, only one input source is required.  
Or, a forth
> jack could be an output that was equal to A+B.  In this case a 3rd 
voltage
> is generated that represents a voltage that could be used "fill in 
the gap"
> between two faded signals or just the opposite.
> 
> The advantage of the B input jack is that this module is now a 
neat little 2
> channel CV processor that can be used anytime you want to bias or 
attenuate
> or apply some gain to a CV in a 2-in, 2-out format.  The advantage 
of the
> A+B output is a unique 3rd CV so that a 3rd VCA can be entered 
into the
> equation in some creative fashion. Real estate does not support 5 
jacks.
> 
> So, that is my 2 cents on the subject.  This would be a simple 
module to
> construct.  Essentially if is a handfull of op amps wired up in 
the correct
> configuration.  You put one of these next to a MOTM-190 and you 
have panning
> fading with maximum control in only 2U.  And, you get to take 
advanage of
> VCAs you already own,
> 
> Larry H (seeing a Stooge panel run for a simple CV DIY processor 
module).

Re: Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-12 by Mike Marsh

Yes!  Please do!  Be assured of at least one customer...

Mike

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, The Old Crow <oldcrow@o...> wrote:
> 
>   I built most of this as a one-off module for Robert Rich.  
Perhaps I 
> should make more (and adjust a few things).
> 
> Crow
> /**/
> 
> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, J. Larry Hendry wrote:
> 
> > OK, I'm gonna step up to the plate on this because it has been 
something I

Re: [motm] Re: Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-12 by Sikorsky

> Yes!  Please do!  Be assured of at least one customer...

make that two...
the reason being, my modular lives two distinct lives:
1 - as a synthesiser - i'll patch it as complex or as simply as my hands
wander, and i'll record the results
2 - as outboard effects during mixdown - here i want a simple set up, with
any stereo processing to have the correct balance

so while the former is usually an easygoing voyage to get 'that' sound, the
latter is usually a pain in the neck if it's more than four cables to set up
am i right..?

cheers
paul b / sheffield / eagerly awaiting modules 100 - 103...

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-13 by Scott Juskiw

At 10:58 PM -0500 2004/09/11, J. Larry Hendry wrote:
>OK, I'm gonna step up to the plate on this because it has been something I
>have been thinking about for a while.

...

>So, that is my 2 cents on the subject.  This would be a simple module to
>construct.  Essentially if is a handfull of op amps wired up in the correct
>configuration.  You put one of these next to a MOTM-190 and you have panning
>fading with maximum control in only 2U.  And, you get to take advanage of
>VCAs you already own,
>

I don't mean to step on Larry's parade here, but I think this can 
already be done with an Oakley Multimix and a bit of elbow grease. I 
modified my Multimixes so that they can provide a variable DC bias to 
any of the 3 outputs (-5V to +5V) if nothing is plugged into the 
input. I also used Larry's normalising scheme so that the three 
Multimix channels are cascaded. This allows the bias to go right to 
the 13V limits of the op amps, if you need that much offset. Adding a 
DC bias to the reversing attenuator function of the Multimix provides 
quite a variety of CV scaling and biasing. It's great for turning 
those +/- LFO signals into + only signals (and inverting them at the 
same time). Plus, there's already panels and boards for the Multimix.

Details here:

http://www.tellun.com/motm/mods/oms902/oms902.html

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-13 by Richard Brewster

That's a nice modification, Scott.  While it can perform a similar 
function to Larry's proposed module, Larry's concept is different.  It 
provides two independent CV processors, each with a reversible 
attenuator and a bias pot.   The modified Multimix allows summing a bias 
to the MIX3/OUT, in addition to providing up to three simple bias 
outputs.  I can see having both types of module.

-Richard Brewster

Scott Juskiw wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>I don't mean to step on Larry's parade here, but I think this can 
>already be done with an Oakley Multimix and a bit of elbow grease. I 
>modified my Multimixes so that they can provide a variable DC bias to 
>any of the 3 outputs (-5V to +5V) if nothing is plugged into the 
>input. I also used Larry's normalising scheme so that the three 
>Multimix channels are cascaded. This allows the bias to go right to 
>the 13V limits of the op amps, if you need that much offset. Adding a 
>DC bias to the reversing attenuator function of the Multimix provides 
>quite a variety of CV scaling and biasing. It's great for turning 
>those +/- LFO signals into + only signals (and inverting them at the 
>same time). Plus, there's already panels and boards for the Multimix.
>
>Details here:
>
>http://www.tellun.com/motm/mods/oms902/oms902.html
>
>  
>

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-13 by The Old Crow

This is exactly what I built for Robert 2 years ago.  I think I know 
what Larry is after, I'll tinker a bit...

Scott
/**/
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, Scott Juskiw wrote:

> I don't mean to step on Larry's parade here, but I think this can 
> already be done with an Oakley Multimix and a bit of elbow grease. I 
> modified my Multimixes so that they can provide a variable DC bias to 
> any of the 3 outputs (-5V to +5V) if nothing is plugged into the 
> input. I also used Larry's normalising scheme so that the three 
> Multimix channels are cascaded. This allows the bias to go right to 
> the 13V limits of the op amps, if you need that much offset. Adding a 
> DC bias to the reversing attenuator function of the Multimix provides 
> quite a variety of CV scaling and biasing. It's great for turning 
> those +/- LFO signals into + only signals (and inverting them at the 
> same time). Plus, there's already panels and boards for the Multimix.
> 
> Details here:
> 
> http://www.tellun.com/motm/mods/oms902/oms902.html

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-13 by The Old Crow

FYI, here is what I made for Robert:

http://www.cs80.com/reversingb.gif

  I have a better version of it since then (temperature compensated 
reference).

Crow
/**/

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-13 by Oakley Sound

Hi Folks,

RE: The Four-pot board used on the Control-X modules.

> Now he is using two (at least that is the way the new OMS-902 is.

This is correct. I use two op-amps per reversible attenuator circuit,
and with an optional trimmer to set zero position too.

> Looks like one resistor would need to be tacked in for the 3rd input
to that summing amp.  That is a pretty easy mod.

No need to mod. This resistor, and input solder pad, are already there
because I use it on the 2U version of the VC-ADSR module. Each output
stage of the four-pot circuit board is summing stage to allow an
additional external CV to be added to the main signal path.

Regards,

Tony Allgood                         www.oakleysound.co.uk

Oakley Modular Synthesisers      Penrith, Cumbria, England

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-13 by J. Larry Hendry

> --- Original Message -----
> From: Scott Juskiw <scott@...>
> I don't mean to step on Larry's parade here, but I think this can already
be done with an Oakley Multimix and a bit of elbow grease.

-----
(stepping back onto the parade route, wiping off the grease)

Richard Brewster pointed out to me that actually the Oakley control PCB is
probably the one to use.  I do not have one yet, but it looks like the only
modification required would be to add one resistor to the summing node in 2
of the amps.  It also has a regulated 5 volt source on board for the bias.

I feel obligated to point out that if one plans to use a multimix board that
you need to have the latest version if you want to change the gain of the
reversing attenuator from unity.  Tony's original design used a singal amp
for that function.  While that is an efficient design, if you try and change
gain on it, you will find that the gain is changed in one direction and not
the opposite.  The new multimix boards use the 2 amp design.

Larry

Re: [motm] Panning VCAs - a different approach

2004-09-13 by J. Larry Hendry

Thanks Tony.  This is indeed a perfect PCB for the control module I
imagined, no modification required.
Larry H
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: Oakley Sound <oakley@...>
This is correct. I use two op-amps per reversible attenuator circuit, and
with an optional trimmer to set zero position too.

No need to mod. This resistor, and input solder pad, are already there
because I use it on the 2U version of the VC-ADSR module. Each output stage
of the four-pot circuit board is summing stage to allow an additional
external CV to be added to the main signal path.