MOTM

More from an all Stooge afternoon...

What is the current thinking about this? I know there was talk a year ago
about a stripped down version.

This about fits on 2U.

My wish list for the Super EG (MOTM-810?):

Trigger in jack
Gate in jack
EG trigger/gate button (necessary)
Trigger out jack (necessary)
Trigger level knob (determines level that initiates trigger on release)
LIN/LOG switch OR LIN/LOG knob
LIN/LOG CV in jack (optional)
CV level out LED (green) (necessary)
CV out jack
-CV out jack (optional)

Delay knob
Delay CV in jack
Attack knob
Attack CV in jack
Decay knob
Decay CV in jack
Sustain knob
Sustain in jack
Release knob
Release CV in jack

Totals:
11 jacks
6 knobs/pots
1 switch or 1 additional knob/pot
1 LED
1 button

--Shemp

Only $499 kit/$699 assembled

Paul S.
grumble...taxes....grumble

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tentochi" <tentochi@...>
To: "MOTM Mailing List" <motm@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 9:48 PM
Subject: [motm] Super VC DADSR EG


> More from an all Stooge afternoon...
>
> What is the current thinking about this? I know there was talk a year ago
> about a stripped down version.
>
> This about fits on 2U.
>
> My wish list for the Super EG (MOTM-810?):
>
> Trigger in jack
> Gate in jack
> EG trigger/gate button (necessary)
> Trigger out jack (necessary)
> Trigger level knob (determines level that initiates trigger on release)
> LIN/LOG switch OR LIN/LOG knob
> LIN/LOG CV in jack (optional)
> CV level out LED (green) (necessary)
> CV out jack
> -CV out jack (optional)
>
> Delay knob
> Delay CV in jack
> Attack knob
> Attack CV in jack
> Decay knob
> Decay CV in jack
> Sustain knob
> Sustain in jack
> Release knob
> Release CV in jack
>
> Totals:
> 11 jacks
> 6 knobs/pots
> 1 switch or 1 additional knob/pot
> 1 LED
> 1 button
>
> --Shemp
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

tentochi@... writes:

>>What is the current thinking about this? I know there was talk a year ago

about a stripped down version.
This about fits on 2U.
My wish list for the Super EG (MOTM-810?):<<

You show things that are not necessary as necessary and vise versa. In
reality what is necessary is everything that is on the current MOTM-800
(gate,trig,cv,-cv), plus the added support for voltage control of each stage
plus a delay stage. You will need 5 knobs for cv levels for each stage which
you don't show, otherwise it's going to take some mixers or attenuator
modules (don't exist) to set the levels. I'd say forget about trying to fit
in in a 2U module. We need a variety of sizes anyway. The only reason I'm
not yelling for this module now is because the Encore UEG lets me do some
things I wanted a VC-DADSR to do. I can create delayed envelopes because it
effectively has a delay stage and the envelope times are voltage controlled (
although all at once). If you don't have one, consider it. It gives you
linear/log, LEDs, and gate button, all the things you want.

-Elhardt

>> My wish list for the Super EG (MOTM-810?):<<
> You show things that are not necessary as necessary and vise versa. In

Necessary = things I want

--Shemp

> plus a delay stage. You will need 5 knobs for cv levels for each
> stage which
> you don't show, otherwise it's going to take some mixers or attenuator
> modules (don't exist) to set the levels.

I thought I included that. Delay knob, Attack knob, etc.

> I'd say forget about trying to fit
> in a 2U module. We need a variety of sizes anyway.

2U is not important to me. It was a rough estimate of what I thought the
size would be. 3U if it needs to be.

> If you don't have one, consider it. It gives you
> linear/log, LEDs, and gate button, all the things you want.

I have two.

Paul's comment about price shuts down this debate pretty quickly. Although
it seemed to me that his estimate was a little over-inflated or there are a
lot of parts in this I am not considering (this is the most likely
answer--not being an electro-boffin myself at all) or maybe this module
isn't very attractive to Paul at this point.

--Shemp

Blacet EG2070: Not quite 11 jacks but maybe it will work for you guys.
Has TWO LEDs (whoo, whooo..). PCB has *mounting holes*. Kitting up units
for 4-20 shipment; MOTMized included.

http://www.blacet.com/news.html

http://www.blacet.com/store.html
___________________
John Blacet
Blacet Research
http://www.blacet.com

Err, brother Shemp - I believe Paul's comments were meant to be a
joke. As in, "I'm doing taxes, need money for the taxman, I'll do it
but it will cost you!" It can be produced for much less than the
silly price Paul quoted.

You have 3 alternatives right now for a VC ADSR - the UEG, Blacet's
module (OK, not RIGHT now), and diy (look at JH's nice HADSR circuit).

As for gate delay, another option is to build a separate module
offering a quad gate delay, which can also offer operating modes as
one-shots. More versatile in my opinion - I'm going to build
something up like this as some point.

Moe

--- In motm@y..., "Tentochi" <tentochi@c...> wrote:
> Paul's comment about price shuts down this debate pretty quickly.
> Although it seemed to me that his estimate was a little over-
> inflated or there are a lot of parts in this I am not considering
> (this is the most likely answer--not being an electro-boffin myself
> at all) or maybe this module isn't very attractive to Paul at this
> point.
>
> --Shemp

> You have 3 alternatives right now for a VC ADSR - the UEG, Blacet's
> module (OK, not RIGHT now), and diy (look at JH's nice HADSR

circuit).

i was going to ask this question to DIY but i guess i'll do it here;
what's the 'H' on the HADSR? same as the 'D' on shemp's DADSR?

alex

Hold.

You can have initial Delay, and/or a gate Hold that doesn't let the EG go
into Release mode for a set amount of time even after the incoming gate goes
low. The Korg MS-10 had that and I used it a lot, actually. Pretty useful.

Personally, rather than put too many controls on an EG, I would move those
gate-conditioning functions off to a separate module where they can be used
for other things, too. A Gate Delay/Hold module. I was thinking of tinkering
something like that together, maybe based on the Roland System 100
schematic. Or, heck, I think you can use a 555 timer and squeeze most of the
gate conditioning functions you need out of it. It makes more sense to me to
treat those as gating functions than to over-complicate the ADSR. But that's
just one man's opinion, and I can understand why others would disagree.



-----Original Message-----
From: perpetual@... [mailto:perpetual@...]
Sent: Friday, 30 March, 2001 12:02 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [motm] Re: Super VC DADSR EG

> You have 3 alternatives right now for a VC ADSR - the UEG, Blacet's
> module (OK, not RIGHT now), and diy (look at JH's nice HADSR

circuit).

i was going to ask this question to DIY but i guess i'll do it here;
what's the 'H' on the HADSR? same as the 'D' on shemp's DADSR?

I agree with you Ken. A separate gate manipulation module is a great idea.

George

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tkacs, Ken [SMTP:ken.tkacs@...]
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:09 PM
> To: 'motm@yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: RE: [motm] Re: Super VC DADSR EG
>
>
>>Personally, rather than put too many controls on an EG, I would

move those

> gate-conditioning functions off to a separate module where they can be
> used
> for other things, too. A Gate Delay/Hold module. I was thinking of
> tinkering
> something like that together, maybe based on the Roland System 100
> schematic. Or, heck, I think you can use a 555 timer and squeeze most of
> the
> gate conditioning functions you need out of it. It makes more sense to me
> to
> treat those as gating functions than to over-complicate the ADSR. But
> that's
> just one man's opinion, and I can understand why others would disagree.

<<

> A Gate Delay/Hold module. I was thinking of tinkering
> something like that together, maybe based on the Roland System 100
> schematic. Or, heck, I think you can use a 555 timer and squeeze

most of the

> gate conditioning functions you need out of it.

yes, there's one here: http://www3.ncsu.edu/ECE480/
off the page that was posted on SDIY and that paul reposted here.

> It makes more sense to me to
> treat those as gating functions than to over-complicate the ADSR.

But that's

> just one man's opinion, and I can understand why others would

disagree.

i agree as well.

i'm looking for simpler ADSR schems (well simpler than JH's) if
anybody has some kicking around their link lists.

alex

This is fine for me. Dave suggested also I believe. Feature set
desired????

Someone said they don't want to complicate the EG. We already have an
uncomplicated EG though.

--Shemp

> I agree with you Ken. A separate gate manipulation module is a
> great idea.
> >>Personally, rather than put too many controls on an EG, I would
> move those
> > gate-conditioning functions off to a separate module where they can be
> > used
> > for other things, too. A Gate Delay/Hold module. I was thinking of
> > tinkering
> > something like that together, maybe based on the Roland System 100
> > schematic. Or, heck, I think you can use a 555 timer and squeeze most of
> > the
> > gate conditioning functions you need out of it.

> Personally, rather than put too many controls on an EG, I would move those
> gate-conditioning functions off to a separate module where they can be

used

> for other things, too.

If the ADSR has a schmitt trigger input, you can use a VCLAG for both,
delay and hold functions.

JH.

I didn't mean that I was against an EG with more features than an ADSR. All
I meant was that if you add features to the point where an EG becomes a 4u
panel, there's a good chance that some of those features can be moved off to
another module. You know, make it more modular.

In this case, I was just suggesting that the "Delay" and "Hold" features
were more gate-related and could be made into a gate delay module. This
would free up panel space for other features more intrinsically necessary
for a VC/EG, such as the CV attenuators for the four stages. Having the gate
conditioning on a separate module also lets you use it to mess with other
kinds of pulses.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tentochi [mailto:tentochi@...]
Sent: Friday, 30 March, 2001 3:25 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [motm] Re: Super VC DADSR EG


Someone said they don't want to complicate the EG. We already have an
uncomplicated EG though.

Yeah, I was thinking that with a comparator module, the VC Lag has the
necessary delay functions, with separate UP/DOWN, etc. for the Dealy/Hold
times.


-----Original Message-----
From: jhaible@... [mailto:jhaible@...]
Sent: Friday, 30 March, 2001 3:28 PM
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Re: Super VC DADSR EG


If the ADSR has a schmitt trigger input, you can use a VCLAG for both,
delay and hold functions.

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Tkacs, Ken wrote:

> for a VC/EG, such as the CV attenuators for the four stages. Having the gate
> conditioning on a separate module also lets you use it to mess with other
> kinds of pulses.

yes yes yes... more ability to mess with pulses!! if an adsr came with
that i'd probably post a message to the list asking, "any tips on modding
the uber-adsr to bring the gate delays out?" i'm with you, ken.

bleep.
out.

In a message dated 3/30/2001 7:15:45 AM, blacet@... writes:

>Blacet EG2070: Not quite 11 jacks but maybe it will work for you guys.
>Has TWO LEDs (whoo, whooo..). PCB has *mounting holes*. Kitting up units
>for 4-20 shipment; MOTMized included.

Two LEDs!!! Presumably one for Bradley (blinking gate on indicator) and one
for Barlow (continuously varying with the EG output), thus ending the LED
debate once and for all -- can world peace be far behind?

I look forward to seeing what develops on the Stooge panel front regarding
this module.

In a message dated 3/30/2001 7:48:16 AM, mate_stubb@... writes:

>As for gate delay, another option is to build a separate module
>offering a quad gate delay, which can also offer operating modes as
>one-shots. More versatile in my opinion - I'm going to build
>something up like this as some point.

I agree with Moe (and everyone else) on this. I can imagine a 1U dual gate
delay (or VC Gate delay), or a VC Gate delay module with VC gate sustain hold
time.

As far as a VC ADSR module, I still like my idea of the having 4 VC inputs
(one for each stage) and a separate VC ADR input which routes to three
reversing attenuators (one for each A, D, R) for easily using a 1V/oct output
to either reduce the ADR times with increasingly high notes from a keyboard
or other stranger uses involving these durations.

Originally I suggested four knobs for the initial settings and the three
reversing attenuators -- there was something else in the remaining panel
space (maybe a manual button and an LED), I can't remember what. I seem to
recall Mr. T and I going round and round on this one due to my being somewhat
dismissive of need for a VC Sustain attenuator. I ain't backin down now
either!!!

Said bravely at a distance of close to 3000 miles from Mr. T's present
location.
JB

jwbarlow@... writes:

>>I have to admit, I find this idea much more interesting than a basic VC

sustain level (since I can see little use for increasing the sustain level
over time).<<

VC sustain doesn't necessarily mean you are changing its level over time. It
could mean you are giving it an initial control voltage everytime you strike
a key. Keyboard velocity could determine its level every note, or a key
triggered S/H for a random sustain level every note. I'd hate to see it get
too confusing or move too far away from what a VC-DADSR is supposed to be
with it replacing sustain with "leakage". There is always the UEG for more
complex decay curves.

-Elhardt

> VC sustain doesn't necessarily mean you are changing its level over time.

It

> could mean you are giving it an initial control voltage everytime you

strike

> a key. Keyboard velocity could determine its level every note, or a key
> triggered S/H for a random sustain level every note. I'd hate to see it

get

> too confusing or move too far away from what a VC-DADSR is supposed to be
> with it replacing sustain with "leakage". There is always the UEG for

more

> complex decay curves.

I have a VC ADSR in my old modular (built around SSM2056, but this can
easily be replaced with my discrete LAG core), with CV inputs for all 4
parameters. 99% of my patches that make use of the CV inputs at all are
controlling Decay or Sustain. A (S&H) random voltage on Decay is my
favorite means to animate sequencer patterns. And Sustain is often
controlled
from a pedal or aftertouch. IMO it's important that the sustain level can
be both increased and decreased after the attack-decay phase with the
external
CV. Increasing the sustain level would be lagged with the attack time
constant
and decreasing sustain level would be lagged with the decay time constant.
That's the natural way to implement it, and musically very usefull and
"smooth".
Modulating Attack time with velocity is an obvoious choice as well.

IMO there is no need for multiple decay times or the like. (Speak�ng of
hardware envelopes here) You will rarely make use of it, and when you don't,
the extra parameters are in the way. You can easily emulate multiple decay
rates with a standard VC ADSR and a comparator: When a certain level
is reached, the Decay time constant is switched to a new value by adding
or substracting a CV. You can even get a smooth switching of time constants
when you're using an overdriven amplifier rather than a hard switching
comparator.

JH.

use this

You may want to take a look at the Oakley Basic EG (pcb 5 ukp) or the
new ADSR with embedded vca (pcb 16 ukp). They are a great complent to
your MOTM modules.

> i'm looking for simpler ADSR schems (well simpler than JH's) if
> anybody has some kicking around their link lists.
>
> alex

Hi Ken n All !

Let's throw another couple of stones in the pool :)

I've argued for inclusion of a Peak stage before (archives?) .
(APDSR) Extra punch and all that .

There seems to be confusion over vc sustain . Either it influences
the actual level of sustain or it adds to or droops from the set
voltage over time . Or one can have both, each with their control
i/p . Or switchable . Actual level has my preference if a choice
has to be made .

An inclusion off an ALL cv i/p (apdr) (not sustain) is a good move .
Feeding both the all and an individual in inverted does not change
it, but the others do (and all variations inbetween :) ) Normalling
would even make sense here . Switches preferred here, see later .

The necessity for attenuators is debatable . As no simple
attenuating/inverting module is available yet, i'd be for inclusion
this time . Means 3u . Later a simpeler 2u version could be made
without attenuators .

While in some circumstances i like the inverting attenuators, i feel
here one should go to using switches, at longer times an audible null
is not on the cards . on-off-inv . This would allow one to
precisely null modulation, without pulling out the plug . At the
same time it would allow one to preset modulations at the flick of a
switch, good for live use .

Since a separate trigger looks most useful, i propose a dual mode
here as well : repeat from zero, and repeat from actual level, wich
can be sustain .

And again : let's have outputs biased around sustain, as well a the
regular ones . (MS20/50 style) (archives)

I've not mentioned delay's at all in the above . I can identify 3
useful modes of operation : hold, wich holds off triggering for a
set time, delay added to the gate and delay that replaces the gate
with the set time . Hold, off course, could also be useful added to
both delay modes .

I'd be all for putting 2 or 3 hold/delay sections on a separate 2u
panel, and adding a trigger extractor/vc-repeater to one (or more) .
The extractor would deliver a trigger at gate (if not supplied) and
the vc-repeater would add triggers, once a hold delay and/or
threshold is crossed, at a speed dependant on v-in, with limits set
by knobs . Combine this with the choice of triggers above, and the
possibility to feed several eg's with these outs, and insanely moving
drones and other mayhem becomes easy ;^)

The above could be done with separate modules, but would take quite a
few .

There you have it, my dream 5u envelope combination . And no, i make
no excuses for wanting it all ;^P

btw Ken, what 5 sections does the Virus EG have ?

Cheers, and sweet (day)dreams .


Keep 'em oscillating :)


Hugo
=

Interesting comments. I'd thought that summing the EG's output with a given
CV source would be nearly as useful as a full featured (meaning reversing
attenuated) VC Sustain input in most cases, apparently not.

The only thing I'd add to your comments is that I find that the R stage to be
very useful in making "natural" sounding patches with a CV coming from a
keyboard (for example) -- I found I was usually using the same CV source for
both the D and R CV inputs which gave rise to my idea of a single input with
reversing attenuators for the three time intervals.


I believe this discussion to be academic (unfortunately) since I haven't seen
any interest in Paul's part on building a VC EG in some time -- but very good
discussion nonetheless!

JB

In a message dated 4/1/2001 4:11:39 AM, jhaible@... writes:

>99% of my patches that make use of the CV inputs at all are
>controlling Decay or Sustain. A (S&H) random voltage on Decay is my
>favorite means to animate sequencer patterns. And Sustain is often
>controlled
>from a pedal or aftertouch. IMO it's important that the sustain level can
>be both increased and decreased after the attack-decay phase with the
>external
>CV. Increasing the sustain level would be lagged with the attack time
>constant
>and decreasing sustain level would be lagged with the decay time constant.
>That's the natural way to implement it, and musically very usefull and
>"smooth".
>Modulating Attack time with velocity is an obvoious choice as well.
>

hugo.haesaert@... writes:

>>btw Ken, what 5 sections does the Virus EG have ?<<

It has Attack, Decay, Sustain Level, Sustain Time, Release. The sustain time
knob goes from Fall to Infinity to Rise. So it allows you to use sustain
like a second decay if you set a fall time. If set to infinity it acts as a
regular sustain.

-Elhardt

Don't forget you can use your VC-LAG module as a ASR voltage controlled
EG.

I am hoping to have a little 1U wide companion module for the MOTM-820
that will allow it to be used as a VC-Attack-Decay EG with auto-repeat.
Work begins this month sometime, but you need to have a MOTM VC-LAG to
make use of it.

Regards,

Tony Allgood Penrith, Cumbria, England

Oakley Modular Synth and TB3030:
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan

>Has anybody considered the Yamaha CS approach ?
>Sustain is always "in the middle" (zero), and you have two
>individual sliders for positive (Attack-Decay) and negative
>(Attack-Release) amount.

The Sherman FilterBank has this feature too.

As JH says, its not much use for ordinary VCAs, but perhaps it could be
used on ring mod equipped VCAs. This way the phase could be changed
throughout the ADSR cycle. This may give rise to some unusual sounds
when this and another source are mixed together. eg. multiple taps on a
ladder filter or differing outputs on the upcoming SEM filter.

Regards,

Tony Allgood Penrith, Cumbria, England

Oakley Modular Synth and TB3030:
www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm
My music: www.mp3.com/taklamakan