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Help required - in other words big ask ahead

Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-22 by jabathaslut

Hi guys,
I'm in the process of a rather large project and I need a really big favour from an owner of an SDSV and an Analog Claptrap. I have sets of fairly good schematics for these units including the elusive hihat and cymbal modules. I have always wanted these units but due to age and miss handling most available are in pretty poor nic. The affordable ones anyway. I am in the process of developing and building a completely authentic but modernized version of the SDSV. I want to include the clap trap as an additional module as well. As with the original it will be modular in design but will be fully programmable with the ability to save patches and sets. There will be options for manual knobs sets if people want a simplified version. The whole lot will be based on the eurorack format. My ask is a biggy. Can an owner of an original SDSV and analog Claptrap open their units up and take clear and detailed photos of the internals, PCB etc. I will be setting up a web site to document the project so all info will be posted up as the job moves along. I need the detailed photos so as to check the correctness of my available schematics. The SDSV used the SSM2044 for its filter, these are available but the supply is dwindling so a discrete replication is being worked on. All help will be appreciated.
My email is warlandr@... if u can send any pics. Thanks

Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-23 by EPPHERRE

Hello,
Me two I want to build my own SDS5 analog drum synth....I had a SDS5 brain from ebay 4 years ago and I have redraw schematics from this unit...I have noticed errors on the SIMMONS schematics....
I think we have to replace the SSM2044 by a discrete filter (like for example on the Tama Techstar with LM13700 otas) and redesign the enveloppes generators to have a cleaner triggering.I think also to replace the Click/Drum balance control by a Click level control (like SDS8,Techstar...)
On my SDS5 I noticed a big DC thump at the output of the SSM2044 filter when applying filter sweep and I don't like it(neither the speakers!)so removing the SSM2044 that filter only noise and replacing with discrete cheap filter will be the better solution. 
I will be OK for a simplified design (without preset,just some pots...)because I am competent in electronic but not on programming (Pics....) 
See you soon
     Thierry EPPHERRE from France

 

--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, "jabathaslut" <warlandr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi guys,
> I'm in the process of a rather large project and I need a really big favour from an owner of an SDSV and an Analog Claptrap. I have sets of fairly good schematics for these units including the elusive hihat and cymbal modules. I have always wanted these units but due to age and miss handling most available are in pretty poor nic. The affordable ones anyway. I am in the process of developing and building a completely authentic but modernized version of the SDSV. I want to include the clap trap as an additional module as well. As with the original it will be modular in design but will be fully programmable with the ability to save patches and sets. There will be options for manual knobs sets if people want a simplified version. The whole lot will be based on the eurorack format. My ask is a biggy. Can an owner of an original SDSV and analog Claptrap open their units up and take clear and detailed photos of the internals, PCB etc. I will be setting up a web site to document the project so all info will be posted up as the job moves along. I need the detailed photos so as to check the correctness of my available schematics. The SDSV used the SSM2044 for its filter, these are available but the supply is dwindling so a discrete replication is being worked on. All help will be appreciated.
> My email is warlandr@... if u can send any pics. Thanks
>

Re: [Simmons Drums] Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-23 by WT

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "EPPHERRE" <raymond.eppherre@...>
To: <Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:55 PM
Subject: [Simmons Drums] Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead


> Hello,
> Me two I want to build my own SDS5 analog drum synth....I had a SDS5 brain 
> from ebay 4 years ago and I have redraw schematics from this unit...I have 
> noticed errors on the SIMMONS schematics....
> I think we have to replace the SSM2044 by a discrete filter (like for 
> example on the Tama Techstar with LM13700 otas) and redesign the 
> enveloppes generators to have a cleaner triggering.I think also to replace 
> the Click/Drum balance control by a Click level control (like 
> SDS8,Techstar...)


But but......then it\ufffds no SDS-V

> On my SDS5 I noticed a big DC thump at the output of the SSM2044 filter 
> when applying filter sweep and I don't like it(neither the speakers!)so 
> removing the SSM2044 that filter only noise and replacing with discrete 
> cheap filter will be the better solution.

Is not the amplifier DC-coupled ?

WT

[Simmons Drums] Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-23 by jabathaslut

I cant answer on the DC thump issue as I dont have an SDSV
it may be a faulty component in the unit he owns. As to the 
filter, the internal circuitry of the 2044 is in fact very
similar to the SSM2040 and the CEM range of filters. There
have been a number of "replication circuits" published for 
these, many of them based on OTA's either CA3080, LM13600
or LM13700. With the correct tweaking the sound from these
can be be adjusted to be so close to the original it would 
hard for the normal ear to hear any difference. Keep in mind
that the SDS3 used a moog type 24db ladder filter and the only
reason simmons would have used the SSM2044 was it was cheaper
and used less PCB realestate. Same point about the way the SDSV
had a tone/click balance pot instead of 2 separate level pots.
It kept down the cost and used less room on the front panel.
My vision is to recreate a "modernised" version of the SDSV
as I'm sure simmons would do if they were around today.
The ability to more finely tune the various parameters and save
their settings would only enhance its usability. The actual sound
should remain the same.

Anyway as said in my first post, if someone can provide me with
some detailed photos of the SDSV and analog claptrap It would
be very much appreciated and all info will be shared with the
community. I am a semi retired electronics engineer (do to a 
back injury) and projects like this stop me going brain dead..lol

--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, "WT" <waveterm@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "EPPHERRE" <raymond.eppherre@...>
> To: <Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 4:55 PM
> Subject: [Simmons Drums] Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> > Me two I want to build my own SDS5 analog drum synth....I had a SDS5 brain 
> > from ebay 4 years ago and I have redraw schematics from this unit...I have 
> > noticed errors on the SIMMONS schematics....
> > I think we have to replace the SSM2044 by a discrete filter (like for 
> > example on the Tama Techstar with LM13700 otas) and redesign the 
> > enveloppes generators to have a cleaner triggering.I think also to replace 
> > the Click/Drum balance control by a Click level control (like 
> > SDS8,Techstar...)
> 
> 
> But but......then it´s no SDS-V
> 
> > On my SDS5 I noticed a big DC thump at the output of the SSM2044 filter 
> > when applying filter sweep and I don't like it(neither the speakers!)so 
> > removing the SSM2044 that filter only noise and replacing with discrete 
> > cheap filter will be the better solution.
> 
> Is not the amplifier DC-coupled ?
> 
> WT
>

Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-25 by superwolle70

Michael, who currently lies at a beach in Thailand having problems to log in to the Simmons newsgroup with his cell phone (yes! This is the truth!) just asked me, currently working hard, very short of time, hungry and overworked, to post this message in his name:


I don't know if you can imagine what big work it will be reproducing an SDSV in full effect. I cloned the SDS3 and it took me nearly 2 years, still not ready in every detail, but working perfect. My first serious recommendation: Leave the sound-producing circuit AS IS, don't change a single component. For example a Fender Stratocaster is a catastrophal construction and full of faults and compromises. But it is one of the most famous guitars on earth. And nobody would seriously think f.e. about glueing the neck to the body or replace the single-coil pickups by humbuckers. The DC thump on the SDSVs 3080 VCA circuits CAN be removed (Thierry EPPHERRE told me how, I didn't forget). But exactly this "popp" is important for the SDSV's power and is also a difference between the roaring SDSV and the softer Tama/Pearl.

Leave the SSM2044 AS IS. You can get plenty of these as re-issues from Hongkong (Harry Hu, Allpartspipe,HongkongSuperSeller a.s.o.). They sound exactly like the originals (Thierry, did you try the ones I sent you?) They cost around 7Euro each; I think, this is fair. A filter is the most important character of a synthesizer. The Moog ladder filter on the Minimoog was distorting, because its input could be overdriven, a FAULT, as you can see, but this made its sound. For me, the SSM2044 has a slightly "coffing" sound which is unique. Also the resonance (on the snare module) is very outstanding, very much different as on other layouts.


What could be made better on an SDSVs clone? Yes, as said before, the signal mix section: I would like to have 3 volume controls like noise, tone and click instead of the two balance pots. I would love a BIG knob or fader as volume control directly under each channel strip to have FAST access while playing live. By the way: The tiny controls and the 3 unit 19'' case were not very positive for live stting up and -playing in the past, I would prefer a more mixer-type housing like the SDS8 or Roland/Yamaha stuff. And I would prefer every control BIG.

I would like to have the factory preset accessable from outside as a third row of trimmers. And I would change the sequencer input voltage to 1V.
As nobody wants to play the SDSV with the old riot shield hard plastic pads today, another input and discriminating circuitry has to be constructed to produce the needle-sharp hard click also with modern mesh-head pads. I was successful to construct this on my SDS3 clone, and the dynamic range could be improved too.

Finally, I would like to have more channels than seven. A modifyed output section: If a single-out is used, the signal has to be cut away from the mix-out. So it is possible to wire f.e.: bass-snare-all other. No l/r, for me this was pure nonsense and I never used it.  No XLRs anymore, jacks are cheaper and easier to wire (no pin-questions anymore...). The power switch should be on the front panel.

Something else: The original SDSV boards contain some "hidden" secrets. I think, they planned some other modules like swirling effects, bell-type stuff a.s.o. I examined, what happens if you apply some "missing" parts onto the boards. The ringmodulation on the analogue hihat is one thing, modulation of the VCO with noise another. There is a possibility to modulate the filter with the LFO. Perhaps a universal module should be created, with all these features?

--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, "jabathaslut" <warlandr@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hi guys,
> I'm in the process of a rather large project and I need a really big favour from an owner of an SDSV and an Analog Claptrap. I have sets of fairly good schematics for these units including the elusive hihat and cymbal modules. I have always wanted these units but due to age and miss handling most available are in pretty poor nic. The affordable ones anyway. I am in the process of developing and building a completely authentic but modernized version of the SDSV. I want to include the clap trap as an additional module as well. As with the original it will be modular in design but will be fully programmable with the ability to save patches and sets. There will be options for manual knobs sets if people want a simplified version. The whole lot will be based on the eurorack format. My ask is a biggy. Can an owner of an original SDSV and analog Claptrap open their units up and take clear and detailed photos of the internals, PCB etc. I will be setting up a web site to document the project so all info will be posted up as the job moves along. I need the detailed photos so as to check the correctness of my available schematics. The SDSV used the SSM2044 for its filter, these are available but the supply is dwindling so a discrete replication is being worked on. All help will be appreciated.
> My email is warlandr@... if u can send any pics. Thanks
>

[Simmons Drums] Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-25 by spridleyman

> filter, the internal circuitry of the 2044 is in fact very
> similar to the SSM2040 and the CEM range of filters. 

No..  The 2044 is a sort of folded transistor ladder design, a
sort of distant cousin of the Moog ladder (as used SDS3 & 4).
The 2040 and CEM filters are cascaded OTA designs - not the same.



Steve

[Simmons Drums] Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-25 by jabathaslut

Hmmm, I will need to dig a little deeper into the filter side of things.
I know EMU ran out of supplies of the 2044 whilst still producing the SP1200 sampler back in the 90's. The last few production runs used a discrete reproduction of the 2044. I would be interesting to see how they did it. I'm used to service old analog gear and still have quite a large number of NOS CEM and SSM devices. I try not to use them in new designs so as to have them available when the odd friend brings a bit of busted gear for repair.

The sudden re-appearance of the 2044 has me scratching my head abit. I have some of the new ones and yes I cant tell the difference sound wise from the originals. Whats strange is that from what I remember Analog Devices bought out SSM and say most of the old dies etc are long gone. Some one has done a good job of back engineering if they've been done from scratch.

My design is going to be based on all the original analog side of things so soundwise it should be identical. The only difference will be each module will have a microprocessor for parameter adjustment and each parameter will be independantly adjustable eg no tone/click
balance, you can fully adjust the amount of tone and click or tone and noise for each patch. This I agree for a purist is a departure from the original SDSV but in my view only enhances its capabilities without affecting its sound characteristics. 

As each module is under the control of a microprocessor they will be
linked at the rear by a daisy chained ribbon. Each module communicates
with the master "parameter editor" module via a digital serial link, thus the number of modules in any "kit" will be very flexible. 

I am doing 3d mockups on how the unit may look at the moment and will 
post some up when available. Yes a pretty big job in all but I don't work at the moment as I'm disabled due to a spinal injury and this keeps me ticking over. I have plenty of time to aply to this.

I'm going into hospital next week for another op so I was hoping to get the pics etc requested before then as I will lay in bed with the notebooks keeping myself busy =), so if anyone can help me out asap with the photo's I'd be really appreciative

thanks for the feedback so far, hopefully I can set up a web site soon and move the discussion to there ASAP

cheers

--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, "spridleyman" <sprgroups@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> > filter, the internal circuitry of the 2044 is in fact very
> > similar to the SSM2040 and the CEM range of filters. 
> 
> No..  The 2044 is a sort of folded transistor ladder design, a
> sort of distant cousin of the Moog ladder (as used SDS3 & 4).
> The 2040 and CEM filters are cascaded OTA designs - not the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve
>

[Simmons Drums] Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-25 by jabathaslut

Yes indeed I stand corrected, I just had a good read through the datasheet and original patent docs and the 2044 is indeed a variation of the ladder type filter design. I need to do a bit of thinking
and possibly software simulation. From there I might play with a bread boarded design. My problem with using "special purpose" IC's
is that at some point they become vary hard to find and if the need replace becomes an issue thats where the pain starts. If a design can be kept to using readily available components, this situation can be averted. There are hundreds of bits of classic gear around the world currently being unused or parted out simply because of the lack of available components. To me this is really sad. As an electronics engineer I know anything can be replicated in one way or another. No it may not be the original design but if it produces the same functions this should not matter.

Many a Roland synth has been saved from the scrap heap due to a chap designing and building a pin for pin replication of the Roland filter hybrid.

I have quite a number of original SSM2044's and I have some of the ones available via hongkong. The ones from hongkong do indeed work but I have noticed quite a variation in output from them. Not knocking
them, just giving my opinion

cheers
--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, "spridleyman" <sprgroups@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> > filter, the internal circuitry of the 2044 is in fact very
> > similar to the SSM2040 and the CEM range of filters. 
> 
> No..  The 2044 is a sort of folded transistor ladder design, a
> sort of distant cousin of the Moog ladder (as used SDS3 & 4).
> The 2040 and CEM filters are cascaded OTA designs - not the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve
>

Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-25 by spridleyman

> My problem with using "special purpose" IC's
> is that at some point they become vary hard 
> to find and if the need replace becomes an 
> issue thats where the pain starts.  If a 
> design can be kept to using readily available 
> components, this situation can be averted. 


Agree 100%.  Anything new built with discontinued 
parts limits product life and uses up spares.


Why not just build a Moog ladder filter?  It's 
in the right family and uses discrete parts.
Might become a new classic.

> The ones from hongkong do indeed work my opinion


And maybe they'll stop people buying up broken
Siel synths and ripping out the filter chips.
Pure vandalism.



Steve (drifting off topic)

Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-25 by jabathaslut

I'm thinking about building on breadboard the basic SDSV Then playing with various filters and tweaks till I get the required result. Moog ladders can vary greatly in their sound depending on the components used. Given that the 2044 is of the ladder group of filters my guess is that a tweaked moog style could come very close. For the purists, no it wouldn't be an "original" SDSV but then again the original Prophet5 from Sequential was all SSM, the final version was all CEM
and I've played them both, they have their differences but they were both still Pro5's =)

cheers

--- In Simmons_Drums@yahoogroups.com, "spridleyman" <sprgroups@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> 
> > My problem with using "special purpose" IC's
> > is that at some point they become vary hard 
> > to find and if the need replace becomes an 
> > issue thats where the pain starts.  If a 
> > design can be kept to using readily available 
> > components, this situation can be averted. 
> 
> 
> Agree 100%.  Anything new built with discontinued 
> parts limits product life and uses up spares.
> 
> 
> Why not just build a Moog ladder filter?  It's 
> in the right family and uses discrete parts.
> Might become a new classic.
> 
> > The ones from hongkong do indeed work my opinion
> 
> 
> And maybe they'll stop people buying up broken
> Siel synths and ripping out the filter chips.
> Pure vandalism.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve (drifting off topic)
>

Re: [Simmons Drums] Re: Help required - in other words big ask ahead

2009-11-26 by jesper

jabathaslut skrev:
> --- There are hundreds of bits of classic gear around the world 
> currently being unused or parted out simply because of the lack of 
> available components. To me this is really sad. As an electronics 
> engineer I know anything can be replicated in one way or another. No it 
> may not be the original design but if it produces the same functions 
> this should not matter.

So, what you're saying is that the Teisco SX-400 is the only polysynth 
worth buying?! ;)

-- 
electronically yours, jesper

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