Modular Synth Panels

This was meant to be a private message, not to the
group. No assurance for any future run should be
interpretted from this. Only Don's approval will make
this "potentially" happen. Thanks!

Thomas

--- thomas white <djthomaswhite@...> wrote:

> Scott,
> 
> Let's say hypothetically... 

Thomas White
  Natural Rhythm
www.naturalrhythmmusic.com

At 06:30 AM 12/19/2008, Suit & Tie Guy wrote:
>On Dec 19, 2008, at 2:34 AM, thomas white wrote:
>>interpreted from this. Only Don's approval will make
>>this "potentially" happen. Thanks!
>
>why are you concerned with Don's approval?

Good point. It's my understanding (which could easily be wrong) that 
circuits aren't protected by copyright. Circuit board artwork is. 
And, you can get patents, like Moog did for the transistor ladder 
filter. But, the LPG isn't patented and nobody is using Buchla's artwork.

John

well if this hypothetical semi 2nd run of LPG boards comes true please let me know as i garauntee i ll buy multiples of it. a minimum of 4 in fact. possibly

This question explains why Don Buchla, synth pioneer
and legendary inventor of circuits, was quite suprised
for me to ask for his blessing. It's just what I
consider "right" to do. Otherwise I'd have an EMS
Synthi clone coming, a JH library of PCB circuits
(like...cough... Doepfer) and more. This community is
grass roots. Don still makes the modules. Maybe I
should be making my own MOTM-300 VCO since the circuit
is "not patented?" Never...

In the end, I am no designer or inventor. Only by
basing my designs on other people am I able to make a
circuit available in the first place. Sure I am a
half-whit circuit bender and can follow instructions
in the many circuit books I have read in the past. But
I have no true invention to call my Own. While Don's
LPG is not patented it is still his design. 

Thanks for the question though. If my own grassroot
PCB does not get approval per my request for a 2nd
run, there are already many other options... from:

Plan-B
Cyndustries
Doepfer
Make Noise
Wiard

etc. 

Thanks for listening. 

Thomas

--- Suit & Tie Guy <erwill@...> wrote:

> On Dec 19, 2008, at 2:34 AM, thomas white wrote:
> > interpreted from this. Only Don's approval will
> make
> > this "potentially" happen. Thanks!
> 
> why are you concerned with Don's approval?
> ---
> Suit & Tie Guy
> suitandtieguy.com
> stgsoundlabs.com
> 
> 


Thomas White
  Natural Rhythm
www.naturalrhythmmusic.com

Am I missing something here?
This is a second run of boards, did you get permission from Don for
the first run? if so, why would you need permission for a second run
of the same board?
On another note, the basic idea and design was Don's, you have
modified the design and added other aspects to the circuit, so it is
no longer his design, but yours. 90% of the designs in DIY (and in
production synth modules) are based on something else, whether it is
someone else's circuit, a modification of the app notes for the IC, or
a circuit out of the old Electronotes, it doesn't matter, if you make
any changes to it, it is now your design, most of my designs are based
around the chip manufacturers app notes, or a circuit I found in
Electronotes, so according to your logic I should be asking the chip
manufacturers for their permission before I get any boards done up, or
I should spend years trying to track down the guy who submitted the
circuit to Electronotes 30 years ago, sometimes this "Intellectual
Property" can be pushed a bit to far. 
If you want to make a direct clone of a specific module
(panels,circuit,pcb) then yes, you should get the original designers
permission, otherwise I see no reason for it.

My 2 cents worth,
Dave

thomas,

kudos again for your concern and respect for other folks.  treating
other human beings well is an ethical choice... making that choice
makes the world a better place, and i'm always heartened when someone
shows this by example.  

as others have pointed out, there's probably no legal requirement to
do so...  in fact, some forces in our society actually encourage
selfishness and inconsiderate behavior.  even more reason to do what
you should do, rather than what you can get away with.

happy holiday,
bbob


--- In ModularSynthPanels@yahoogroups.com, thomas white
<djthomaswhite@...> wrote:

>
> This question explains why Don Buchla, synth pioneer
> and legendary inventor of circuits, was quite suprised
> for me to ask for his blessing. It's just what I
> consider "right" to do. Otherwise I'd have an EMS
> Synthi clone coming, a JH library of PCB circuits
> (like...cough... Doepfer) and more. This community is
> grass roots. Don still makes the modules. Maybe I
> should be making my own MOTM-300 VCO since the circuit
> is "not patented?" Never...
> 
> In the end, I am no designer or inventor. Only by
> basing my designs on other people am I able to make a
> circuit available in the first place. Sure I am a
> half-whit circuit bender and can follow instructions
> in the many circuit books I have read in the past. But
> I have no true invention to call my Own. While Don's
> LPG is not patented it is still his design. 
> 
> Thanks for the question though. If my own grassroot
> PCB does not get approval per my request for a 2nd
> run, there are already many other options... from:
> 
> Plan-B
> Cyndustries
> Doepfer
> Make Noise
> Wiard
> 
> etc. 
> 
> Thanks for listening. 
> 
> Thomas
> 
> --- Suit & Tie Guy <erwill@...> wrote:
> 
> > On Dec 19, 2008, at 2:34 AM, thomas white wrote:
> > > interpreted from this. Only Don's approval will
> > make
> > > this "potentially" happen. Thanks!
> > 
> > why are you concerned with Don's approval?
> > ---
> > Suit & Tie Guy
> > suitandtieguy.com
> > stgsoundlabs.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> Thomas White
>   Natural Rhythm
> www.naturalrhythmmusic.com
>

I'm having deja vu

This was all thrashed out recently in the electro-music.com forums. No need to go into it 
here - just look it up. 

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
t=29016&sid=0ca77e288677aa0a3dd151ceb5a40cac

Thomas's position is the right one. Yes, he got permission from Don for the first run. 

--- In ModularSynthPanels@yahoogroups.com, "David Vandenberg" <dragonslair@...> 
wrote:

>
> Am I missing something here?
> This is a second run of boards, did you get permission from Don for
> the first run? if so, why would you need permission for a second run
> of the same board?
> On another note, the basic idea and design was Don's, you have
> modified the design and added other aspects to the circuit, so it is
> no longer his design, but yours. 90% of the designs in DIY (and in
> production synth modules) are based on something else, whether it is
> someone else's circuit, a modification of the app notes for the IC, or
> a circuit out of the old Electronotes, it doesn't matter, if you make
> any changes to it, it is now your design, most of my designs are based
> around the chip manufacturers app notes, or a circuit I found in
> Electronotes, so according to your logic I should be asking the chip
> manufacturers for their permission before I get any boards done up, or
> I should spend years trying to track down the guy who submitted the
> circuit to Electronotes 30 years ago, sometimes this "Intellectual
> Property" can be pushed a bit to far. 
> If you want to make a direct clone of a specific module
> (panels,circuit,pcb) then yes, you should get the original designers
> permission, otherwise I see no reason for it.
> 
> My 2 cents worth,
> Dave
>

Couple of thoughts...

Don is still in this business and still sells 292
Lopass Gates (quad version). This is not my design,
even with the mods. I added something to Peter to
something from Paul to make a "compilation" PCB of
sorts. 

Honestly, I never thought the project would get the
desire that people have shown due to the many other
versions on the market. My boards are sold for
extremely cheap compared to others out there so maybe
that had something to do with it. The project was
posted on Electro Music for months before a 2-week
order period began. I regret to have missed people,
but keep in mind my request of Don involved a single
run and not one that would compete with Euro format
directly out of respect for Peter Grenader, Doepfer,
Wiard, etc

If Don says go for it I'll advertise here, on AH and
on synth_diy this time and not on Electro-Music to try
and hit others that missed the limited first run. In
the end, I am not in this as a business. I made boards
that filled my immediate need and shared with others.
One does not have any idea how much time it takes to
make boards, take orders, and ship them around the
world until you try it... that is the foundation for
any hesitation to really do this, and part of why I
hope to partner with Bridechamber for future
distribution along with his convenient offering of
MOTM-format panels since no one has previously made a
LPG in that format. All my best,

Thomas
--- David Vandenberg <dragonslair@...> wrote:

> Am I missing something here?
> This is a second run of boards, did you get
> permission from Don for
> the first run? if so, why would you need permission
> for a second run
> of the same board?
> On another note, the basic idea and design was
> Don's, you have
> modified the design and added other aspects to the
> circuit, so it is
> no longer his design, but yours. 90% of the designs
> in DIY (and in
> production synth modules) are based on something
> else, whether it is
> someone else's circuit, a modification of the app
> notes for the IC, or
> a circuit out of the old Electronotes, it doesn't
> matter, if you make
> any changes to it, it is now your design, most of my
> designs are based
> around the chip manufacturers app notes, or a
> circuit I found in
> Electronotes, so according to your logic I should be
> asking the chip
> manufacturers for their permission before I get any
> boards done up, or
> I should spend years trying to track down the guy
> who submitted the
> circuit to Electronotes 30 years ago, sometimes this
> "Intellectual
> Property" can be pushed a bit to far. 
> If you want to make a direct clone of a specific
> module
> (panels,circuit,pcb) then yes, you should get the
> original designers
> permission, otherwise I see no reason for it.
> 
> My 2 cents worth,
> Dave
> 
> 


Thomas White
  Natural Rhythm
www.naturalrhythmmusic.com

> hope to partner with Bridechamber for future
> distribution along with his convenient offering of
> MOTM-format panels since no one has previously made a
> LPG in that format. All my best,
> 
> Thomas

That is why I think it was so popular. Prior to this run, if you had a
system in 5u format, your only option was Cynthia. And judging by
people's posted experiences one could expect a 2 year + (or greater)
lead time, which is not tenable to most.

I think this is popular because there are no other bare PC boards 
available for Low Pass Gates that I know of.  You can search the 
Internet and find quite a variety of LPG circuits including the original 
Buchla design, but no PC boards.  I have a QLPG from Cynthia Webster in 
a MOTM Stooge panel.  If still available from Cynthia, it's fully 
assembled and relatively expensive.

http://pugix.com/synth/cynthia-quad-low-pass-gates/

I like the sound of the LPG enough that I'm interested in Thomas's 
second run of boards and might build more, especially if there is a 
Bridechamber panel for it.

Richard Brewster

mathroutine wrote:

>> hope to partner with Bridechamber for future
>> distribution along with his convenient offering of
>> MOTM-format panels since no one has previously made a
>> LPG in that format. All my best,
>>
>> Thomas
>>     
>
> That is why I think it was so popular. Prior to this run, if you had a
> system in 5u format, your only option was Cynthia. And judging by
> people's posted experiences one could expect a 2 year + (or greater)
> lead time, which is not tenable to most.
>
>

I think that partnering up with Bridechambers and making it known on
this forum would work very well.  I know that at various times I am
pressed for time and would like to keep up. I hit BC and Synthpanels
to see what is up with the things I am going to use , to build or have
built. It is production oriented so things move on rather than getting
caught up in exogenous nonsense. 

Your mannerly approach to Buchla is wonderful. That is the sort of
thing that people like EMS really appreciate. (more personally)

Quad, dual, don't care,  I am down for a few.

gw

<djthomaswhite@...> wrote:

>
> Couple of thoughts...
> 
> Don is still in this business and still sells 292
> Lopass Gates (quad version). This is not my design,
> even with the mods. I added something to Peter to
> something from Paul to make a "compilation" PCB of
> sorts. 
> 
> Honestly, I never thought the project would get the
> desire that people have shown due to the many other
> versions on the market. My boards are sold for
> extremely cheap compared to others out there so maybe
> that had something to do with it. The project was
> posted on Electro Music for months before a 2-week
> order period began. I regret to have missed people,
> but keep in mind my request of Don involved a single
> run and not one that would compete with Euro format
> directly out of respect for Peter Grenader, Doepfer,
> Wiard, etc
> 
> If Don says go for it I'll advertise here, on AH and
> on synth_diy this time and not on Electro-Music to try
> and hit others that missed the limited first run. In
> the end, I am not in this as a business. I made boards
> that filled my immediate need and shared with others.
> One does not have any idea how much time it takes to
> make boards, take orders, and ship them around the
> world until you try it... that is the foundation for
> any hesitation to really do this, and part of why I
> hope to partner with Bridechamber for future
> distribution along with his convenient offering of
> MOTM-format panels since no one has previously made a
> LPG in that format. All my best,
> 
> Thomas
> --- David Vandenberg <dragonslair@...> wrote:
> 
> > Am I missing something here?
> > This is a second run of boards, did you get
> > permission from Don for
> > the first run? if so, why would you need permission
> > for a second run
> > of the same board?
> > On another note, the basic idea and design was
> > Don's, you have
> > modified the design and added other aspects to the
> > circuit, so it is
> > no longer his design, but yours. 90% of the designs
> > in DIY (and in
> > production synth modules) are based on something
> > else, whether it is
> > someone else's circuit, a modification of the app
> > notes for the IC, or
> > a circuit out of the old Electronotes, it doesn't
> > matter, if you make
> > any changes to it, it is now your design, most of my
> > designs are based
> > around the chip manufacturers app notes, or a
> > circuit I found in
> > Electronotes, so according to your logic I should be
> > asking the chip
> > manufacturers for their permission before I get any
> > boards done up, or
> > I should spend years trying to track down the guy
> > who submitted the
> > circuit to Electronotes 30 years ago, sometimes this
> > "Intellectual
> > Property" can be pushed a bit to far. 
> > If you want to make a direct clone of a specific
> > module
> > (panels,circuit,pcb) then yes, you should get the
> > original designers
> > permission, otherwise I see no reason for it.
> > 
> > My 2 cents worth,
> > Dave
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> Thomas White
>   Natural Rhythm
> www.naturalrhythmmusic.com
>

What is the significant difference in your opinion?
Both in the 2oz copper process and the tin/lead
finish.

2oz copper - does if make any electrical difference in
sound? Does it last longer?

tin/lead finish - Have you had a problem with the RoHS
compliant finish before? 

If there is a 2nd run, I will make all efforts to
remove bugs and refine the process... Thanks!

Thomas

--- Suit & Tie Guy <erwill@...> wrote:

> if there is a second run of boards i would beg for
> tin/lead finish  
> and 2 oz copper process. i'd totally buy another
> four and use those  
> instead.
> ---
> Suit & Tie Guy
> suitandtieguy.com
> stgsoundlabs.com
> 
> 


Thomas White
  Natural Rhythm
www.naturalrhythmmusic.com

--- In ModularSynthPanels@yahoogroups.com, "mathroutine" <mathroutine@...> wrote:
>
> > hope to partner with Bridechamber for future
> > distribution along with his convenient offering of
> > MOTM-format panels since no one has previously made a
> > LPG in that format. All my best,
> > 
> > Thomas
> 
> That is why I think it was so popular. Prior to this run, if you had a
> system in 5u format, your only option was Cynthia. And judging by
> people's posted experiences one could expect a 2 year + (or greater)
> lead time, which is not tenable to most.


Please don't believe everything you read...

Cynthia
http://www.cyndustries.com/

--- In ModularSynthPanels@yahoogroups.com, Suit & Tie Guy <erwill@...>
wrote:
> about how long it takes for this board to flow solder ... i worry  
> about damaging the soldermask when i'm working with this board. i'm  
> also open to criticism of my solder technique. i could just be a Mr  
> Complainey Pants as i seem to be the only person whining.
> ---
> Suit & Tie Guy


I had trouble with some of the joints on the lpg boards too, and the
oakley pcbs I did were hassle free.

Along those lines, I would suggest moving the ground plane to the component side, ala 
synthtech/motm boards. It would make soldering easier, less worrisome. 

--- In ModularSynthPanels@yahoogroups.com, Suit & Tie Guy <erwill@...> wrote:

>
> On Dec 20, 2008, at 3:39 PM, thomas white wrote:
> > 2oz copper - does if make any electrical difference in
> > sound? Does it last longer?
> 
> it makes not a significant difference in sound or longetivity that  
> i'm aware of.
> 
> however i makes a huge impact on the reworkability. i've been using 2  
> oz copper process for 2.5 years now and have only lifted a trace once  
> through rework. fyi: that module never shipped.
> 
> the supplier i work with charges only a few pennies extra per board  
> for 2 oz process. they are speedypcb.com, and are a broker for a  
> chinese firm from the shipping cost and packing list that comes with  
> the boards.
> 
> > tin/lead finish - Have you had a problem with the RoHS
> > compliant finish before?
> 
> the problem is twofold. first i'm assuming some of the difficulty i'm  
> having in soldering this comfortably has to do with the low trace  
> weight. another is the lead-free finish. the other issue i have  
> stuffing this PCB is the extremely small solder pads. i'm really not  
> sure what is the biggest issue is, but i'm interested. the low trace  
> weight should make "taking" the solder easier, however it makes me  
> nervous to work with because i worry about damaging the board while  
> soldering.
> 
> i'm using a Weller WES51 with a ETH tip at 750 degrees farenheit. i  
> moved to this tip because of the smallish pads on an early PCB which  
> were corrected, and it's still large enough to make me freak out  
> about how long it takes for this board to flow solder ... i worry  
> about damaging the soldermask when i'm working with this board. i'm  
> also open to criticism of my solder technique. i could just be a Mr  
> Complainey Pants as i seem to be the only person whining.
> ---
> Suit & Tie Guy
> suitandtieguy.com
> stgsoundlabs.com
>

What solder type are you using? And was it problem
with flow or size of the joints you had to solder?

The more specifics the better in case a new run
happens.

Thomas

--- mathroutine <mathroutine@...> wrote:

> --- In ModularSynthPanels@yahoogroups.com, Suit &
> Tie Guy <erwill@...>
> wrote:
> > about how long it takes for this board to flow
> solder ... i worry  
> > about damaging the soldermask when i'm working
> with this board. i'm  
> > also open to criticism of my solder technique. i
> could just be a Mr  
> > Complainey Pants as i seem to be the only person
> whining.
> > ---
> > Suit & Tie Guy
> 
> 
> I had trouble with some of the joints on the lpg
> boards too, and the
> oakley pcbs I did were hassle free. 
> 
> 


Thomas White
  Natural Rhythm
www.naturalrhythmmusic.com

> What solder type are you using? And was it problem
> with flow or size of the joints you had to solder?
> 
> The more specifics the better in case a new run
> happens.
> 
> Thomas
> 

Hi Thomas,

we were chatting a bit on electromusic about this. I used both kester
no clean, and water washable, and it was a problem with getting the
solder to adhere to the pad.

 To play devil's advocate, my technique got better after I did these
boards so quite possible it was my fault, but I will say when I
returned to them to try to resolder some of the sketchy joints, no
matter what I tried I still had the problem - including adding more
flux or cleaning off and lightly sanding the pad.

The small pads are not the end of the world for me, I don't mind that.

I would also add to this that I've encountered some Kester No clean  
and Water Soluable that had **NO FLUX** in parts of it. I had a hell  
of a time until I figured out what was going on. It *really* sucked.  
The solder would only adhere to the tip of the iron. The one good  
thing that came out of it was that I ditched my Rat Shack iron and got  
a Weller WES51 because I thought the iron was the problem. :-)

Sam E.

> we were chatting a bit on electromusic about this. I used both kester
> no clean, and water washable, and it was a problem with getting the
> solder to adhere to the pad.

Does anyone have a Blacet format .FPD file (or even better, sell the panel)
for a JH Tau Pipe Phaser?

Thanks
David

David M. Ingebretsen M.S., M.E.
Collision Forensics & Engineering, Inc.
2469 East Fort Union Blvd. STE 114
Salt Lake City, UT 84121
www.CFandE.com

801 733-5458 Office
801 842-5451 Cell

dingebre@...
dingebre@...

Hi all,

I uploaded a couple of Blacet format panels. One for magic Smoke's Mankato
filter based a lot on STG Soundlab's layout. I hope that's OK.

I also uploaded a Blacet JH-FS-1 Frequency Shifter panel. I omitted the XLR
connector, but think I have everything else pretty much. (This is an update
from my last upload which I deleted.)

I put the panel names in Bulgarian (long story).

I haven't built the panels yet, and these are my first crack at panel
design.

I'd love some feedback, particularly if I've got clearance problems I've
missed or an awkward layout in general.

Thanks

David

David M. Ingebretsen M.S., M.E.
Collision Forensics & Engineering, Inc.
2469 East Fort Union Blvd. STE 114
Salt Lake City, UT 84121
www.CFandE.com

801 733-5458 Office
801 842-5451 Cell

dingebre@...
dingebre@...