Mellotronists

Don Tilman wrote...

I kind of agree.

I do think the MA Mark VI has enough major improvements to qualify as
a significant development of the instrument; the power supply, motor,
motor controller, preamp, cabinet construction, and the other features
are all great things.

I know what you're saying though -- none of those features really
changes the way the player interracts with the instrument, and the
Mark VI looks an awful lot like an M400 from a distance.  Sure enough.

It was probably a business decision to build the Mark VI.  I mean, in
the sense that it provides immediate product recognition, many of the
Mark VI components can perform double duty as upgrades to the M400,
many of the M400 components can serve as backup if the Mark VI
components can't be built, and it provides some manufacturing
experience before going on to other things.  That sounds like a
completely reasonable business strategy to me.

But I agree that a radically new Mellotron, something along the lines
of the the JustinTron, would be an awesomely great musical instrument
to have in production.

Of course I'm just mumbling as an observer here, and I'm certainly not
speaking for Mellotron Archives or with any inside information.

  -- Don"
  I think that to improve the technology significantly is as it would be to 
build a technologically advanced "68 GTO"

Why bother?

Let's see, what could be improved?

Digital motor control board allowing advanced pitch control.
Improved motors (done)
Stereo Panning (?)
Improved optically or electronically controlled cycling
Improved keyboard control (pressure pads and rollers)
Power supply (obvious)
Standard tape width (1/2 inch?)
etc.

So what do we end up with? A really super expensive Mellotron. Is it worth 
it? Is there a market enough to justify it? 

Frank (Bellotron 001 & 400SM #1562 & whatever else is in my shop)

Follow up to my previous post.

I have, amongst other keyboards, a Korg Triton Pro X. Minimal expense on the 
cabinet, maximal expense on software. It is f**king awesome! I love my Trons, 
but seriously, except for the appeal of owning and playing one (not unlike 
owning and riding an old motorcycle). How can the average musician justify the 
cost of production? The Mark VI is expensive and really delivers nothing new of 
consequence. A cycling "400" would be exciting, but I would imagine it would 
cost around $8,000.00 US dollars to bring to market. Am I right, Martin? The 
costs would only decrease if there was a huge market for them. Unlikely.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the next big leap in Mellotron technology. 
If it comes, it will not be mass produced. It will be at the workshop level. 
If you notice, there aren't a lot of J-Trons out there, although Justin Mayer 
offered to build some more of them.

We'll buy Mellotrons because we like them... new or used. Any significant 
improvement on the technology will be expensive as hell.

Look at Markus' new Mark VII. It's still an updated Mark V at best, with a 
better motor and preamp. Nothing more.

Frank

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, lsf5275@a... wrote:

Any significant improvement on the technology will be expensive as 
hell.

There are a number of inexpensive improvements that could be made 
that should not be expensive.  All Mellotron models have a 
significant level of noise with the signal.  I'm not talking about 
the wobblies or the ambient noise in the recordings. It's the hummmm 
and the hisss.
The noise can be filtered out with a black box or two.  I think that 
small changes in wiring, shielding, grounding and preamp electronics 
could make a big difference.  (No I am not suggesting Dolby!!!).

How about a durable cabinet?... (Like a PA speaker cabinet).  Rubber 
shock mounts for the main-frame?

Effects:  An effects out and in jack on the preamp, with a wet/dry
knob on the control panel.  This way we could all use our favorite
black box and control it from the keyboard.

Clay

> From: lsf5275@...
   > Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 22:57:41 EST
   > 
   > I have, amongst other keyboards, a Korg Triton Pro X. Minimal
   > expense on the cabinet, maximal expense on software. It is
   > f**king awesome! I love my Trons, but seriously, except for the
   > appeal of owning and playing one (not unlike owning and riding an
   > old motorcycle).

A Korg Triton Pro X is a computer in a plastic case, right?  
A Mellotron is a handcrafted Musical Instrument.

How many recordings can you name with a truly moving Korg Triton 
Pro X solo?

   > How can the average musician justify the cost of production? 

The "average musician" is not the market, just as the average musician
is not the market any other high end instrument.  

I mean...  you can get a Korean-made Fender Stratocaster for $110.00.
And you can get a handcrafted Guild Johnny Smith Award for $11,000.00.
(Interestingly enough these both come from the same company.)  Would
you say that the Guild is hopeless because the average musician can't
justify paying 100 times as much as a Korean Strat?

I don't know how much the Korg Triton Pro X is, but the Mark VI is
only a few times that price, right?

   > We'll buy Mellotrons because we like them... new or used. Any
   > significant improvement on the technology will be expensive as
   > hell.

Nah... most technology is dirt cheap.  The cabinetry is probably
the most expensive part of the Mark VI.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

Don,

Your points are well made. It would be hard to listen to any particular piece 
of music and say, "Hey, that's a Triton Pro X." But I can nearly always tell 
when I'm listening to a Tron (sampled or real) because the sounds are so 
unique. I just think that beyond a few improvements, such as improved noise 
suppression and perhaps built in effects processing, it could become quite pricey.

Frank (Tron owner)

--- In Mellotronists@yahoogroups.com, kinchmusic@a... wrote:

> .... to include on-board effects would be a waste of money unless 
they were A/ very good and b/ geared towards enhancing the overall 
sound.
Andy K (wishing he could go to Nearfest)

It would be hard to satisfy everyone with an on-board effect like 
reverb.  An effects loop (out and in jacks on the preamp), with a 
wet/dry mix knob on the 'tron panel... That would be an inexpensive 
improvement.  We could put an old EchoPlex in the loop or the latest 
multi-effects processor....(or both!), and control it from the 
keyboard.

Clay

P.S.  M400 spec sheet:  I recall seeing a S/N ratio of -55db.  Hard 
to believe?  Maybe more like -45db on a good day.

Andy, I actually went to bed at about midnight east coast US time and the got 
up at 4AM. Today I'm totally ragged out. I have kept long hours the last few 
days. It's kinda nice when I get like this because I often will get some nice 
gentle flashbacks...

Frank (Mello-ing out here in the office cause I'm to exhausted to think 
straight.)

> From: "David Davis" <feline1@...>
   > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:47:50 -0000
   > 
   > The next stage is surely using real Genetically Modified Very
   > Tiny Musicians who actually live inside the mellotron and play
   > "live".

This was pretty much implemented in the 18th century, as a classic
woodcut displays:

  http://www.till.com/random/kittyClav.gif

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

> From: "ceccles_ca" <clay123@...>
   > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:09:36 -0000
   > 
   > AndyK wrote:
   > 
   > > .... to include on-board effects would be a waste of money
   > > unless they were A/ very good and b/ geared towards enhancing
   > > the overall sound.
   > 
   > It would be hard to satisfy everyone with an on-board effect like
   > reverb.  An effects loop (out and in jacks on the preamp), with a
   > wet/dry mix knob on the 'tron panel... That would be an
   > inexpensive improvement.

Yes, I agree.  On board effects are a bad idea unless there's an
especially good reason or a big payoff.

A tape echo would be great because you already have the motor going
and you have a completely tape friendly environment with extra room.
Kind'a obvious when you think about it.  :-)

Though not as winning, a spring reverb would still be nice because
spring reverbs are bulky, there's plenty of space in a 'tron, and the
tradition of spring reverbs in Mark II's and Hammonds.

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

> From: "ceccles_ca" <clay123@...>
   > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 05:19:14 -0000
   > 
   > There are a number of inexpensive improvements that could be made
   > that should not be expensive.  All Mellotron models have a
   > significant level of noise with the signal.  I'm not talking
   > about the wobblies or the ambient noise in the recordings. It's
   > the hummmm and the hisss.  The noise can be filtered out with a
   > black box or two.

The problem with a 'black box' (I'm assuming you mean a classic noise
gate device) is the annoying signature turn-on and turn-off transients.

But if you build it into the 'Tron you can take advantage of the
mechanics of the situation.  Imagine a little laser shooting over the
tops of the keys at the rear of the instrument, and a little
phototransistor at the other end.  The laser is blocked when any key
is pressed, and when all the keys are up the laser shines through.  So
it's easy to mute the output when all the keys are up and unmute
before any note is actually played.

I always use a tron with a volume pedal, so I don't think a noise
killing mechanism is really required.  'Just leave the instrument with
the pedal up.  

  -- Don

-- 
Don Tillman
Palo Alto, California
don@...
http://www.till.com

Hi all,
Well there is of course a Hammond spring line in all M300's and it's 
said to be a nice one too. Personally though I don't use it except 
with M300 violins to get that " Galadriel" sound where you put the 
whole signal through the reverb spring. An interesting effect but as a 
 reverb unit I don't really think it works well with the other tron 
sounds. I prefer digital anyday.
The only improvement I'd like to see on mine is quieter bearings. 
That bloody rattle drives me mad!
John

> 
> Though not as winning, a spring reverb would still be nice because
> spring reverbs are bulky, there's plenty of space in a 'tron, and the
> tradition of spring reverbs in Mark II's and Hammonds.
> 
>   -- Don
> 
> -- 
> Don Tillman
> Palo Alto, California
> don@...
> http://www.till.com
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
>