Homebrew_PCBs

>"Reynolds® Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated vegetable

>
>Darn, never seen this stuff here. We got the waxy paper stuff, not

>>"Reynolds® Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated vegetable
>
> parchment paper."
>
>>Darn, never seen this stuff here. We got the waxy paper stuff, not
>
> silicone.
>
> Any fellow Australian members know if this (or similar) is available
> here? I know we have various grease proof papers available through
> supermarkets but I am thinking that this type will not be available there.
>
> I know there is a little specialist Deli type place (Providore) in my
> town that carries all sorts of weird things. I am going to check that out and
> see what I can find. I know we also have a specialist kitchenware shop whom I might
> be able to give a description/picture to in order to find out if it's
> available.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew S.
> 'Still surfin ' the net at 28k8'

> I've only got an InkJet printer so I'm looking for an adequate laser
> printer. Is this model up to the task of decent trace quality with
> 1200x1200 dpi?
> http://www.cost.com/micro411/hplaserjet2100.html
> Can I use that for SMD laster, or am I limited to thru-hole with this
> resolution?
> Robert
>
>

> "Reynolds® Parchment Paper ..... silicone-coated...

>I've searched Google for <GLC Laminators> and it seems to mean something
>18-years-and-up in Polish if I interpret a lot of the descriptions right.
>:D
>
>Did you mean GBC Laminators like these:
>http://www.heasterlawson.com/laminators.html
>
>If those are it, is there one model you recommend over the others? Or is
>paper width the only important feature between these?
>
>Robert
>:)
>
>
>
>-----Message d'origine-----
>De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
>la part de mycroft2152
>Envoyé : mai 25 2005 22:56
>À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper
>
>
>With all the recent discussion about coating paper with RTV or
>buying silicone sheets, I decided to try some other commonly
>availible (and cheap) coated papers.
>
>While doing my grocery shopping, I found a roll of Reynolds
>Parchment Paper. It's commonly used in baking to prevent sticking. I
>figured for $2.75 for a 30 sq ft roll, it was worth trying.
>
>I was pleasantly surprised. It went through my old laserjet IIP+
>withput a problem. Ther was decent adhesion the the RPP by the
>toner. Much better than using label backings. And a few runs through
>my GLC laminator transferred the toner to a properly prepped board.
>I waited until the board had cooled and hestiantly peeled the the
>RPP. I was amazed it came off very easily. No water needed.
>
>After etching, the board was a good or better than any
>photopaper/inkjet paper I had tried. Best of all no water needed to
>remove the paper!
>
>This is definately the paper to use. It's inexpensive, easy to use
>and is works.
>
>No, this is not spam, I have no stock in the Reynolds Metal
>company. :)
>
>Definitely try the Reynolds Parchment Paper.
>
>
>Mycrofft2152
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

>The Reynolds Parchemnt Paper may also be called Butcher's paper or
>Baker's paper. Originallly these were wax coated paperrs, but in
>today's environment, silicones are generally used. Lower cost and
>more eco friendly.
>
>I am using a GBC laminator. (not GLC, it was very late last night).
>I bought one of the 4" wide ones at Staples Office supply for under
>$50. My boards come from the free EAGLE CAD package which limits the
>size to 3" x 4". Perfect for my use. I swapped the gears in it per
>the Pulsar instructions to slow it down a bit. Though with the RPP,
>I don't think I had to. Staples was discontinuing a 9" home version
>for $40 the last time I looked.
>
>There are a lot of good sites with step by step instructions on
>Toner Transfer.The basic concept is the toner used in a laser
>printer is a meltable plastic. The image created with the toner is
>transferred to a paper sheet and then remelted or fused. This paper
>can then be used to re-transfer the image to another substrate by
>ironing. Crafters have used this for years to transfer photocopied
>design to fabric and wood. For pcb making, you need to transfer 100%
>of the toner, which acts as the resist during etching. It's also
>good for component legends on the top. Most papers require a water
>wash and scrub step to wash off the paper and leave the toner.After
>etching the toner is removed.There is a new(?) step being added. For
>those of you who were alive before inkjet printers, one way to get
>color, especially metallic, was to use a heat sealable foil,
>commonly called Laser Foil. It was a mylar tape with a metallized
>coating that would adhere only to the toner.Great for gold seals
>etc. For pcb's the Laser foil provides both color and an extra
>smooth and durable coating to the toner resist.
>
>The correct combination of paper/ toner/ laseer printer is critical
>for success. There is info in the database on different combinations
>that have worked and not worked. Check it out.
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>
>Mycroft2152
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, KD5NWA <KD5NWA@c...> wrote:
> I use silver color Laser Foil to label the component side, it's
really not
> silver color, but more an aluminum color but it works for it's
intended
> purpose. I bought several rolls at Digi-Key, they were
discontinuing it and
> it was $3.49 for a roll that is aproximatly 300 feet. I bought
several in
> silver and several in green.
>
> Has anyone used it to make a solder mask?
>
> Where is the database that you mentioned? Is it at the Pulsar site?
>
> At 07:42 AM 5/26/2005, you wrote:
> >The Reynolds Parchemnt Paper may also be called Butcher's paper or
> >Baker's paper. Originallly these were wax coated paperrs, but in
> >today's environment, silicones are generally used. Lower cost and
> >more eco friendly.
> >
> >I am using a GBC laminator. (not GLC, it was very late last
night).
> >I bought one of the 4" wide ones at Staples Office supply for
under
> >$50. My boards come from the free EAGLE CAD package which limits
the
> >size to 3" x 4". Perfect for my use. I swapped the gears in it
per
> >the Pulsar instructions to slow it down a bit. Though with the
RPP,
> >I don't think I had to. Staples was discontinuing a 9" home
version
> >for $40 the last time I looked.
> >
> >There are a lot of good sites with step by step instructions on
> >Toner Transfer.The basic concept is the toner used in a laser
> >printer is a meltable plastic. The image created with the toner is
> >transferred to a paper sheet and then remelted or fused. This
paper
> >can then be used to re-transfer the image to another substrate by
> >ironing. Crafters have used this for years to transfer photocopied
> >design to fabric and wood. For pcb making, you need to transfer
100%
> >of the toner, which acts as the resist during etching. It's also
> >good for component legends on the top. Most papers require a water
> >wash and scrub step to wash off the paper and leave the
toner.After
> >etching the toner is removed.There is a new(?) step being added.
For
> >those of you who were alive before inkjet printers, one way to get
> >color, especially metallic, was to use a heat sealable foil,
> >commonly called Laser Foil. It was a mylar tape with a metallized
> >coating that would adhere only to the toner.Great for gold seals
> >etc. For pcb's the Laser foil provides both color and an extra
> >smooth and durable coating to the toner resist.
> >
> >The correct combination of paper/ toner/ laseer printer is
critical
> >for success. There is info in the database on different
combinations
> >that have worked and not worked. Check it out.
> >
> >Hope this helps,
> >
> >
> >Mycroft2152
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
files:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Cecil Bayona
> KD5NWA
> www.qrpradio.com
>
> 'Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then
beat you
> with experience.'

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <swinn05@b...> wrote:
>
> >"Reynolds® Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated
vegetable
> parchment paper."
> >
> >Darn, never seen this stuff here. We got the waxy paper stuff, not
> silicone.
>
> Any fellow Australian members know if this (or similar) is available
> here?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "James RM" <tvi@o...> wrote:
> The Closest thing I know of is Glad Bake:
> www.glad.com.au/products.asp?id=2
> But I have found it to thin to feed through my Laser printers
>
> regards
> James
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <swinn05@b...>
wrote:
> >
> > >"Reynolds® Parchment Paper is a grease-proof, silicone-coated
> vegetable
> > parchment paper."
> > >
> > >Darn, never seen this stuff here. We got the waxy paper stuff,
not
> > silicone.
> >
> > Any fellow Australian members know if this (or similar) is
available
> > here?

> Has anyone figured out how to align the 2 sides for single-pass transfer
> for
> 2-layer PCBs?
> Silicone is non-stick, I'm not sure how to keep the 2 sheets aligned
> through
> the laminator.
> Robert

> On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:26:57 +0200, Robert Hedan
> <robert.hedan@v...> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone figured out how to align the 2 sides for single-pass

> > for
> > 2-layer PCBs?
> > Silicone is non-stick, I'm not sure how to keep the 2 sheets

> > through
> > the laminator.
> > Robert
>
>
> luckily, if you coat the pages with high-temp silicone yourself it

> everything but non-stick, you can't slide a page coated in that

> against a smooth surface. (Kind of like the rubber mats for old

> put in the bathtub so they don't slip).
>
>
> But, my method of choice uses a sheet of heavy paper (thin

> is folded in the center.
>
> Your printouts must have a 3cm+ excess paper on one edge (same

>
> Align your printouts against a light source, no pcb inserted or

> hold together with right hand on the center of the printouts.
> Now open the folded cardboard with left hand, and put the

> with the excess paper in the fold. hold the things together, from

> outside of the cardboard, over the excess paper. now open the

> and slide PCB in (take care to get the component legend on the non-

> side if you do one side copper and one side legend, don't ask...).

> hold together over the PCB (from outide the cardboard) and feed

> with folded edge first.
>
> I usually give it a second run without the cardboard, for the

> thickness makes the heating take longer (I turn the thing over for

> second run).
>
> It works well.
>
> What i wonder sometimes is if it would be easier to sand one edge

> board to a centered sharp edge and simply fold the paper over..
>
> ST

> On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:26:57 +0200, Robert Hedan
> <robert.hedan@v...> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone figured out how to align the 2 sides for single-pass

> > for
> > 2-layer PCBs?
> > Silicone is non-stick, I'm not sure how to keep the 2 sheets

> > through
> > the laminator.
> > Robert
>
>
> luckily, if you coat the pages with high-temp silicone yourself it

> everything but non-stick, you can't slide a page coated in that

> against a smooth surface. (Kind of like the rubber mats for old

> put in the bathtub so they don't slip).
>
>
> But, my method of choice uses a sheet of heavy paper (thin

> is folded in the center.
>
> Your printouts must have a 3cm+ excess paper on one edge (same

>
> Align your printouts against a light source, no pcb inserted or

> hold together with right hand on the center of the printouts. Now open
> the folded cardboard with left hand, and put the

> with the excess paper in the fold. hold the things together, from

> outside of the cardboard, over the excess paper. now open the

> and slide PCB in (take care to get the component legend on the non-

> side if you do one side copper and one side legend, don't ask...).

> hold together over the PCB (from outide the cardboard) and feed

> with folded edge first.
>
> I usually give it a second run without the cardboard, for the

> thickness makes the heating take longer (I turn the thing over for

> second run).
>
> It works well.
>
> What i wonder sometimes is if it would be easier to sand one edge

> board to a centered sharp edge and simply fold the paper over..
>
> ST

> On Thu, 26 May 2005 22:26:57 +0200, Robert Hedan
> <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
>
>> luckily, if you coat the pages with high-temp silicone yourself it is
> everything but non-stick, you can't slide a page coated in that way
> against a smooth surface. (Kind of like the rubber mats for old people to
> put in the bathtub so they don't slip).
>
>

> Hey Stefan,
> Lighten up a little bit and stop kicking a dead horse, you made your
> point. Not everyone wants to or has the room for the guts to an old
> laser printer attached to a chicken barbeque motor on their
> workbench.
> True its a valid way to go, but a PITA to build. Some of us would
> rather just buy a laminator that works. To each his own.
> As far a double sided printing, the folded paper works fine.
> Silicone anti slip is just extra work. If you must tie the silicone
> coating into the process then put a strip along the edge of the RPP
> to prevent movement!
> Let's keep this a open discussion of the many ways to improve
> homebrew pcb's rather than forcing one method on us all.
> Myc

>
> BINGO! Kind of, it gets the creative juices flowing.
> No need to work alignment on the board, too complicated, work the
> alignment
> while folding the paper and slip in the board like you 1st suggested.
> Or print the 2 patterns individually, align them up to light like you
> mentionned, staple around sides and trailing edge, squish the staples
> making sure the paper remains aligned and then pass it through the
> laminator? You can always cut off the staples before a 2nd pass.
> Or what about those tooth-wheels I've seen in sewing (don't ask either
> ok)?
> I don't have one handy, but would they make semi-perforations that would
> maintain alignment? No metal object, simple and cheap application? You
> don't need a lot of strength, just enough to prevent lateral movement.
> If
> those are not quite right, I have a wheel-applicator to install
> screening on
> my windows, maybe filing teeth into that would be better?
> Another idea, align 2 pieces of paper, fold leading edge more than once
> to
> hold alignment, feed that in like your idea of the cardboard leader.
> Robert
>
> "So many ideas, and yet I have no idea really"

>
> The problem for me with printing on a single sheet and then folding is
> that
> my software (QCAD) is not that flexible. I can print one pattern, or a
> mosaic of the same pattern, but I can't print one pattern and then
> another a
> short distance after it.
> That's why I'm looking for a way of aligning 2 individual pieces of
> paper.
> Robert

>
> Just got some of the parchment to try, feels great. Inside of roll is
> slightly more textured than the outside, inside being what's normally
> going to
> get cooked on the way the roll dispenses. $2.24 with the Kroger card
> discount,
> the unopened $14 high temp silicone is going back if this works well at
> all.
> Still working on direct printing this weekend, but have to have
> something else
> as a good backup anyway. I will be doing a couple boards tonight, so
> will of
> course report on how it goes in a while.
> Since I do a lot of shipping, if it works well I'll be willing to send
> it
> out. If it's great I'll just tack $1 on to make it worth going to the
> store,
> and send it at that $1 over cost. Should be less than $10 the slow way
> to
> almost anywhere including the cost, it's only $2.24 on sale or $2.99
> when not.
> Apparently though it is 'the stuff' for high class non-stick baking
> though,
> you should be able to find it or something similar just about anywhere
> at low cost.

> On Thu, 26 May 2005 23:43:03 +0200, Robert Hedan
> <robert.hedan@v...> wrote:
>
> >
> > The problem for me with printing on a single sheet and then

> > that
> > my software (QCAD) is not that flexible. I can print one pattern,

> > mosaic of the same pattern, but I can't print one pattern and then
> > another a
> > short distance after it.
> > That's why I'm looking for a way of aligning 2 individual pieces of
> > paper.
> > Robert
>
>
> My software is the same (not qcad, but lack of function).
> The stupid thing has "panelizing" feature, meaning it can multiply a

> so you can make several on one board, but it can't like print top and
> bottom side by side.
>
> Solution: export to bitmap at printer resolution and fit together

> image editing software.
>
> It is not necessarily easier to have it on one sheet, at all, i have
> found, i usually cut them apart anyway for alignment
>
> ST

> First test results:
>
>
> Printing to parchment paper:
> - a few missing pixels, bad for thin traces.
> - black is not as dense as on regular paper.
>
> Laminating:
> - 1st pass 50% pattern adhesion.
> - 2nd pass 40% adhesion.
> - missing more than just a few pixels, trace quality unacceptable.
>

> Konica/Minolta PagePro 1350W laser printer
> Chef's Select parchement paper

> Printing to ordinary paper:
> - no missing pixels.
> - black is ok for documents.

> Printing to parchment paper:
> - a few missing pixels, bad for thin traces.
> - black is not as dense as on regular paper.

> First test results:
>
>
> Printing to parchment paper:
> - a few missing pixels, bad for thin traces.
> - black is not as dense as on regular paper.
>
> Laminating:
> - 1st pass 50% pattern adhesion.
> - 2nd pass 40% adhesion.
> - missing more than just a few pixels, trace quality unacceptable.
>

> Forgot to mention one important thing, this was on the silkscreen side of
> the board, not the copper side. I wanted to see if the laminator was able
> to at least do that. I have to redo the test now with a piece of 1-sided
> copper-clad.
>
> It's possible that the bare surface might require some prepping, like 600
> grit paper or another light abrasive. The surface is REALLY glossy and a
> helping hand might be all it needed.
>
> I now have 2 more brands of paper:
> - Reynold's, as originally tested.
> - Multi-Bake, by PERKINS Cascade Group.
>
> Getting a HP 2100 in a few hours, so I'll complete my tests then.
>
> Robert
> :)
>

> The Reynolds Parchemnt Paper may also be called Butcher's paper or
> Baker's paper. Originallly these were wax coated paperrs, but in
> today's environment, silicones are generally used. Lower cost and
> more eco friendly.

> Hey Stefan,
>
> Lighten up a little bit and stop kicking a dead horse, you made your
> point. Not everyone wants to or has the room for the guts to an old
> laser printer attached to a chicken barbeque motor on their
> workbench.

> Let's keep this a open discussion of the many ways to improve
> homebrew pcb's rather than forcing one method on us all.
>
> Myc
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> >
> > luckily, if you coat the pages with high-temp silicone yourself it
> is
> > everything but non-stick, you can't slide a page coated in that
> way
> > against a smooth surface. (Kind of like the rubber mats for old
> people to
> > put in the bathtub so they don't slip).
> >
> >
> > But, my method of choice uses a sheet of heavy paper (thin
> cardboard) that
> > is folded in the center.
> >
> > Your printouts must have a 3cm+ excess paper on one edge (same
> edge).
> >
> > Align your printouts against a light source, no pcb inserted or
> anyting.
> > hold together with right hand on the center of the printouts.
> > Now open the folded cardboard with left hand, and put the
> printouts in it
> > with the excess paper in the fold. hold the things together, from
> the
> > outside of the cardboard, over the excess paper. now open the
> printouts up
> > and slide PCB in (take care to get the component legend on the non-
> copper
> > side if you do one side copper and one side legend, don't ask...).
> now
> > hold together over the PCB (from outide the cardboard) and feed
> into fuser
> > with folded edge first.
> >
> > I usually give it a second run without the cardboard, for the
> added
> > thickness makes the heating take longer (I turn the thing over for
> the
> > second run).
> >
> > It works well.
> >
> > What i wonder sometimes is if it would be easier to sand one edge
> of the
> > board to a centered sharp edge and simply fold the paper over..
> >
> > ST

> More data, got the HP 2100 today. I thought a glimpse at 10x
> magnification
> would be interesting. I can go much further if you wish, just ask, but
> we
> get a fair idea of quality differences already at this level.
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
> ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
> 0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
> http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
> 4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
> -%20Chef%20Select.JPG
> I lack a decent USB cam capture software. I have no zoom, the picture on
> the display is MUCH smaller than what I see manually in the microscope.
> I have to try the other papers asap.
> Robert
>

> Yeah, but if the transfer looks like crap, the transfer isn't going to
> magically fill in gaps in the pattern.
> Right now all I'm doing is printing and examining up close using
> differnet
> lasers and papers. Once I get the best combo, then I'll transfer and go
> on
> from there.
> Robert

> Yeah, but if the transfer looks like crap, the transfer isn't going to
> magically fill in gaps in the pattern.
>

> Oh poo, the links are screwed up. You have to copy and reconstitute

> elsewhere, and then paste into the Internet Explorer bar.
>
> The 2 files are in the Toner Transfer folder of the File Section on the

>
> Trying something different just for fun:
>
> http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF

>
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o

>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
>
> More data, got the HP 2100 today. I thought a glimpse at 10x
> magnification
> would be interesting. I can go much further if you wish, just ask, but

> get a fair idea of quality differences already at this level.
>
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o

>
> http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF

>
> I lack a decent USB cam capture software. I have no zoom, the picture

> the display is MUCH smaller than what I see manually in the microscope.
>
> I have to try the other papers asap.
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:

> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:

> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Sat, 28 May 2005 16:56:12 +0200, Ed Okerson <ed@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> When your links are this long it is really helpful to push them through
> tinyurl.com and then post the result from that to the list.
> Ed

>

>Oh poo, the links are screwed up. You have to copy and reconstitute them
>elsewhere, and then paste into the Internet Explorer bar.
>
>The 2 files are in the Toner Transfer folder of the File Section on the
>Yahoo group.
>
>Trying something different just for fun:
>
>http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
>4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
>-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
>ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
>0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
>Robert
>:)
>
>
>
>More data, got the HP 2100 today. I thought a glimpse at 10x magnification
>would be interesting. I can go much further if you wish, just ask, but we
>get a fair idea of quality differences already at this level.
>
>http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQs6rfgxWgO4zF2y0ZIXqLJAVW6q9N_3wUn5Krf1P-1o
>ZCZrlGp184jdBY7YQEPOY6dhgue-8vDcMzgvKksEs8bK68SM/Toner_Transfer/Konica%20135
>0W%20-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
>http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8BaYQgOJB_JWgO4z7py-JlEpDjDpII9etvUqNp-9q1pUrmF
>4kOkkZJUo1h4zshoNPA3uFp_q9XBfe9AO_goKx1KMSBQGYuM/Toner_Transfer/HP%202100%20
>-%20Chef%20Select.JPG
>
>I lack a decent USB cam capture software. I have no zoom, the picture on
>the display is MUCH smaller than what I see manually in the microscope.
>
>I have to try the other papers asap.
>
>Robert
>:)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.2.0 - Release Date: 5/27/2005

> Did anyone get the links to work? Even after pasting it together it tells
> me the document is missing.
> Can someone that go it to work re-post it?
> If you enter the following in the reply < > then you paste the link from
> your browser in the middle , the link will stay in one piece for most
> email
> programs. ie;
> <
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6770926431&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
> >

> Oh poo, the links are screwed up. You have to copy and reconstitute

> elsewhere, and then paste into the Internet Explorer bar.
>
> The 2 files are in the Toner Transfer folder of the File Section on the
> Yahoo group.

> "BTW, I can tell you are scanning at way past your scanners optical
> resolution, my guess is about 3 or 4 times the optical resolution.

> waste of time and filespace to scan at anything above the optical
> resolution, above that your scanner software is just resampling."
>
> I am? I'm using a microscope with an optical camera. The

> the lowest setting, It can go up to something like 1,600 or so.

> resampling there, it's all optical, no digital.

> Yup, roger on the shorter file names and brackets, I hate it when

> up.

> And now for the really stupid question:
> Do you print on the inner surface of the roll?
> I tried that and I'm getting decent printing, but the transfer is a total
> zero.
> Robert
>
>

> Well, I got excellent results printing onto PlayBoy magazines. The lines
> were extremely crisp. The problem occurred during passing through the
> laminator, the toner would barely stick if at all. The silicone papers
> did
> give partial results, but nothing to jump up and down about.
>
> I've tried the $30 el-cheapo WalMart laminator, save your money. It
> doesn't
> even make a dent, doesn't seem hot enough. The GBC 300 gave me some
> results, but showed signs of serious stress. The PCB would stick and
> had to
> be helped along, with groaning and cracking noises; not reassuring.
>
> One tutorial on the group mentionned passing the PCB 8 times through the
> laminator, that's not really acceptable for me. I'd like to do some
> minor
> volume and would like to cut that down. I am wondering if preheating the
> prepped PCBs in the small toaster ovens would shorten the process
> somewhat.
> Anyone try that yet?
>
> I'm seriously considering finding a scrap copier and using the hot drum
> in
> there for laminating. Ideally, a laser printer that I could open and try
> the straight through direct printing would be ideal, but I scavenged my
> LaserJet II a few months ago for the motors. WAAAAAH!!!! I killed the
> roller, and I didn't take notes what went where, and broke some critical
> flex cables by accident. d'uh...
>
> I've read through the files on the group and considering options at this
> point. I'll try printing on the outer side of the silicone paper and see
> what that gives.
>
> Can you tell me more about this high temp silicone you talk about? How
> do
> we use that?
>
> I'm not going to be fabricating PCBs on a large scale, but I do want to
> be
> able to handle something in the order of under 100 sheets of 8 1/2" x 11"
> single-sided. I'm seriously starting to consider investing in a Saber or
> similar machine:
> http://www.online-inc.com/Product%20Pages/Sabre%20CloseUp.htm
>
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
> la part de Stefan Trethan
> Envoyé : mai 29 2005 02:23
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment
> Paper
>
>
> Robert, you are seeing much the same thing i saw back then when trying
> baking paper.
> The coating is just too slippery to hold the toner. The back allows
> printing because it is not coated.
>
> It seems, baking paper works only with certain printers and or for
> certain
> people.
>
> If i were you, i'd try silicone coating with high-temp silicone. The
> difference is the surface is kind of sticky.
>
>
> ST
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Hedan" <robert.hedan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 3:41 AM
Subject: RE : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment
Paper


Well, I got excellent results printing onto PlayBoy magazines. The lines
were extremely crisp. The problem occurred during passing through the
laminator, the toner would barely stick if at all. The silicone papers did
give partial results, but nothing to jump up and down about.

I've tried the $30 el-cheapo WalMart laminator, save your money. It doesn't
even make a dent, doesn't seem hot enough. The GBC 300 gave me some
results, but showed signs of serious stress. The PCB would stick and had to
be helped along, with groaning and cracking noises; not reassuring.

One tutorial on the group mentionned passing the PCB 8 times through the
laminator, that's not really acceptable for me. I'd like to do some minor
volume and would like to cut that down. I am wondering if preheating the
prepped PCBs in the small toaster ovens would shorten the process somewhat.
Anyone try that yet?

I'm seriously considering finding a scrap copier and using the hot drum in
there for laminating. Ideally, a laser printer that I could open and try
the straight through direct printing would be ideal, but I scavenged my
LaserJet II a few months ago for the motors. WAAAAAH!!!! I killed the
roller, and I didn't take notes what went where, and broke some critical
flex cables by accident. d'uh...

I've read through the files on the group and considering options at this
point. I'll try printing on the outer side of the silicone paper and see
what that gives.

Can you tell me more about this high temp silicone you talk about? How do
we use that?

I'm not going to be fabricating PCBs on a large scale, but I do want to be
able to handle something in the order of under 100 sheets of 8 1/2" x 11"
single-sided. I'm seriously starting to consider investing in a Saber or
similar machine:
http://www.online-inc.com/Product%20Pages/Sabre%20CloseUp.htm


Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoyé : mai 29 2005 02:23
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] New paper for TT! Reynolds Parchment Paper


Robert, you are seeing much the same thing i saw back then when trying
baking paper.
The coating is just too slippery to hold the toner. The back allows
printing because it is not coated.

It seems, baking paper works only with certain printers and or for certain
people.

If i were you, i'd try silicone coating with high-temp silicone. The
difference is the surface is kind of sticky.


ST



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
Yahoo! Groups Links










Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
Yahoo! Groups Links








__________________________________________________
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> Exactly how hot do we want to expose the transfer paper? What
> temperature
> do we need to affect the toner?
> I've been thinking of these flat electric grills at Canadian Tire:
> <http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/images/Appliances/GriddlesSkillets/0430
> 830_450_CC_35207.jpg>
> Darn, they don't have the large flat one any more. But then again, this
> folding unit has double heating elements. I wonder if it can easily be
> modded for double-sided toner transfer?
> Great, OUT OF STOCK.
> <http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_
> id=845524443277209&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=2534374303517498&FOLDER%3C%3Ebrows
> ePath=2534374303517599&FOLDER%3C%3EbrowsePath=1408474396669981&FOLDER%3C%3Ef
> older_id=1408474396669981&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1117
> 379961124>
> And it was the compact model too. I'm going to check out the local
> stores
> and see if they have any on liquidation.
> Robert
>
>

> Ok, so we want to make sure the temperature is spread evenly.
> What if we change approach? Instead of putting the heat onto the
> transfer,
> why not put the transfer within the heat?
> Take 2 metals plates, clamp the PCB and transfer paper between both, and
> slip the assembly into a convection oven at the desired temperature for X
> minutes?
> Robert
>
>

> Nope, no pixellation, just magnification under a microscope instead of
> software zooming. Optical means using lenses like in older cameras

> of a telescope), digital is image processing like on current electronic
> cameras (this process fills in blanks).
>

> The camera is probably
> only 600dpi, but it does not do any modification to the image.

> On Sun, 29 May 2005 07:52:38 +0200, Robert Hedan
> <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
>
>
>>And now for the really stupid question:
>>Do you print on the inner surface of the roll?
>>I tried that and I'm getting decent printing, but the transfer is a total
>>zero.
>>Robert
>>
>
> Robert, you are seeing much the same thing i saw back then when trying
> baking paper.
> The coating is just too slippery to hold the toner. The back allows
> printing because it is not coated.
>
> It seems, baking paper works only with certain printers and or for certain
> people.
>
> If i were you, i'd try silicone coating with high-temp silicone. The
> difference is the surface is kind of sticky.
>
>

> I'll probably stick with printing on transparencies and using
> photo-sensitive boards. I get near professional quality every time, and the
> process is so simple. It may be a bit more expensive, but I appreciate the
> quality, speed and ease of use.
>

> We have a yearly collection of hazardous material in our town. That's how I
> plan on disposing of the crap.
>
> I've been looking into fabricating my own CNC drilling station, but I'm just
> a bit screws short of being able to do that yet. :D Soon...

>
> Outsourcing is definitely the way to go once I increase volume, I have no
> doubt on that. I was just hoping to be able to push that back a bit, but
> that seems unlikely given the results I've been having with toner transfer
> and laminators.
>

>
> When I find a decent place that does a reasonable flat rate or at least a
> much more reasonable per board extra I'll post it here..
>

>
> When I find a decent place that does a reasonable flat rate or at
> least a
> much more reasonable per board extra I'll post it here..
>

> BINGO! Thanks Alan!
>
> I've been mulling over how to get a perfectly level platform and I

> have it. If you look under the top of a small table saw, you'll see

> of criss-cross reinforcement pattern in the alloy. Duplicating this

> into wood using a router (but with deeper cuts), placing a short

> wall around the square and then filling that with liquid plastic, I

> have a fairly sturdy and flat surface.
>
> Gravity will take care of the hard work for me, perfectly flat

> just have to sand 1/8" along the perimeter to remove that curve

> along vertical walls.

> When I find a decent place that does a reasonable flat rate or at

> much more reasonable per board extra I'll post it here..

>I've just used CustomPCB in Kuala Lumpur for a small run of 30 single-
>sided PCBs. They were a lot cheaper than my usual suppliers, quality
>was excellent and I got them in about 10 days.
>
>http://www.custompcb.com/
>
>Leon
>
>

> I've got my eye on them also.
>
> If you check the chart, the price is the same for 10 day lead time as well;
> 50% reduction in waiting. 7 day is only $20 more, it's at 5 days that it
> starts getting much more expensive.
>
> I used the same technique selecting CPUs for my new PCs; start at the
> bottom, and work my way up until I hit a big price hike, then I take the CPU
> just before the hike.
>
> I have 3 SP57B steppers waiting on the shelf. I've got an assortment of
> threaded rods from 3/8" up to 1/2" with 2" long nuts. I was planning on
> fixing 2 of these long nuts onto the slides and passing the threaded rod
> through. By using 2 nuts, I get most of the play out.
>
> I'd love to see pics on DIY CNC drilling stations. I've got most of the
> stuff figured out now, I just need to plug a few holes in my design. One
> last place I have to go see is a local ball bearing shop to get several
> units of various sizes.
>
> Then I have to address alignment; how to get it all perfect (or close to).
> Even making a flat surface is not that easy when you talk 1/1000s of an
> inch. Adding a gantry and the sliding motor platform is more variables. I
> really want to make one, but I'm not making it unless I can address
> alignment properly. I might as well use my small vertical drill if my CNC
> station is not aligned right.
>
> Robert
> :)
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
> la part de Alan King
> Envoyé : mai 29 2005 21:01
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Minor production run?
>
>

> BINGO! Thanks Alan!
>
> I've been mulling over how to get a perfectly level platform and I think I
> have it. If you look under the top of a small table saw, you'll see a sort
> of criss-cross reinforcement pattern in the alloy. Duplicating this pattern
> into wood using a router (but with deeper cuts), placing a short retaining
> wall around the square and then filling that with liquid plastic, I should
> have a fairly sturdy and flat surface.

>
> Gravity will take care of the hard work for me, perfectly flat surface. I
> just have to sand 1/8" along the perimeter to remove that curve liquids do
> along vertical walls.

>
> I can also use the same technique to make a perfectly flat side to the
> gantry and the vertical drill slide; 2 other areas that still puzzled me.
> Liquid plastic also has the advantage of strength with little weight and can
> be threaded.
>

> Shoot, there might even be a small market for this if I can make it
> straight.
>
> Robert
> :)
>

> some people just are using
> software that can't do simple remapping so that's how they see it.

> Alan,
>
> I am curious to know how you attached your stepper onto the threaded rod.
>
> Robert :)
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan King" <alan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY Drilling station


> Robert Hedan wrote:
>
>> Alan,
>>
>> I am curious to know how you attached your stepper onto the threaded rod.
>>
>> Robert :)
>>
>
>
> Someone on Ebay had a type of shaft couplers up for half price, I got
> like
> 100 or so. Basically a long collar with two set screws, if your alignment
> is
> good they work well enough for reasonably light duty.

You get couplings that take up misalignment, like Oldham couplings.

Leon

> Thanks Alan.
>

> I knew I could compensate for the total distance, that was figured out
> already. I thought a thou or two on the platform, two more on the gantry,
> another on the drilling rail and you ended up with one big sloppy machine.
>

>
> I've read posts (somewhere) that had really made this application turn into
> a woodworker's nightmare. Maybe when I said I'd like to do mild CNC
> (plastic) didn't help. But I do need a drilling station and fast. Your
> comments are encouraging in that it is within the reach of an ordinary
> do-it-yourselfer to build this.
>
> Robert
> :)
>

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan King" <alan@n...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 4:27 PM
> Subject: Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] DIY Drilling station
>
>
> > Robert Hedan wrote:
> >
> >> Alan,
> >>
> >> I am curious to know how you attached your stepper onto the

> >>
> >> Robert :)
> >>
> >
> >
> > Someone on Ebay had a type of shaft couplers up for half price,

> > like
> > 100 or so. Basically a long collar with two set screws, if your

> > is
> > good they work well enough for reasonably light duty.
>
> You get couplings that take up misalignment, like Oldham couplings.
>
> Leon

> Alan King wrote:
>
>
>>some people just are using
>>software that can't do simple remapping so that's how they see it.
>
>
> What software do you use?
>
> Ed

> Robert Hedan wrote:
>
>> Alan,
>>
>> I am curious to know how you attached your stepper onto the threaded
>> rod.
>>
>> Robert :)
>>
>
>
> Someone on Ebay had a type of shaft couplers up for half price, I got
> like
> 100 or so. Basically a long collar with two set screws, if your alignment
> is
> good they work well enough for reasonably light duty.
>
> I'll try and run into the brand name it's on the bag but not in my
> emails,
> they're on the web and were relatively cheap even at retail. I think the
> bag of
> 25 was only like $20 straight from them.

>
> I used rubber hose, actually vacuum line from the auto parts store. Clamp
> it on the shaft and threaded rod with hose clamps. With that setup
> alignment of the motor to the rod is not that critical.
>
> Ed
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> Robert Hedan wrote:
>
> > Thanks Alan.
> >
>
> > I knew I could compensate for the total distance, that was
figured out
> > already. I thought a thou or two on the platform, two more on
the gantry,
> > another on the drilling rail and you ended up with one big
sloppy machine.
> >
>
> Only precision needed is X and Y, taken care of in the rails
and screw. Z is
> critical in the alignment, so that the shaft of a drill travels
precisely in
> through the hole cut by the tip. Distance up and down is fairly
non-critical.
> Board being flat is fairly non-critical. A rail on either side of
the board,
> and make sure that they are precisely aligned. Couldn't care less
what lies
> between them as long as they are aligned, the rest of the machine
rides on their
> alignment, not what they rest on etc.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > I've read posts (somewhere) that had really made this
application turn into
> > a woodworker's nightmare. Maybe when I said I'd like to do mild
CNC
> > (plastic) didn't help. But I do need a drilling station and
fast. Your
> > comments are encouraging in that it is within the reach of an
ordinary
> > do-it-yourselfer to build this.
> >
> > Robert
> > :)
> >
>
>
> I think people doing it in wood are nuts :). Or maybe just
love woodworking.
> I sort of figured why make a straight surface when you can go
buy one,
> probably about as cheap as the wood too. Plus for me drilling a
hole and
> putting a screw and nut through it about 100 times easier than
making wood joints.
>
> http://home.nc.rr.com/alan69/CNC/
>
> Board is the first hmm no second time I drilled a pattern, on a
junk board.
> Only etched that board because it was the first one to have enough
transfer
> pattern to etch and see. Next board was useable. I didn't know
what I was
> doing yet eye-balling it, so the upper right holes have a few
misaligned. After
> that it did ok, all off but that's me not the machine they're all
about the same
> off. I didn't bother much either it was just a test.
>
> Controller is my own controller, MOSFETs and PIC and not much
else. Works good
> enough, have done a better layout since it needed a bit of
improvement. New
> layout can take 10 FETs per motor and run 5 phase too. Or just 8
or just 4,
> depends on what you need to run.
>
> Motor is a motor mount and coupler, total of about $5 including
the motor,
> coupler, and mount. Coupler has two set screws on the other side.
>
> Whole is the whole thing. Really need to cap off the vertical
rails, I cut them
> off and they're sharp, usually keep a box over them. Hasn't been
used much in a
> while, the board is out of the clamp. Just clamp the board and PC
board and go.
> Does 1'x1'x2 or 3 inches, could make it more easily by mounting
the side rails
> up a bit and extending the Z axis. Only used 1 8' piece of
aluminum angle, and
> the inner 2 rails from 3 packs of the KV drawer slides. Note that
they are
> really the straightness, the angle is simply for 90 degree
mounting and has two
> holes in it the rail is screwed through.
>
> Xaxis is the gantry. Easiest to access the board from the open
end, so the side
> rails become the Y. Motor is mounted in box with cutout for
shaft, other end is
> just a bearing mount.
>
> Yrail is just the end of one of the rails.
>
> Zaxis is two metal electrical boxes. Easier and fills more space
so more
> accurate, the rail would only go up 1 1/2". Boxes are all kinds
of not square,
> but board travel is the only thing that matters so they're just
canted slightly
> vs the X rails to bring the mounting board into square.
>
> I could probably eliminate 90% of the play that is there,
simply by canting
> things just slightly to work the parts against each other. But
never bothered,
> it basically centers itself within the play, and with everything
aligned right
> there is very little force acting to push it out of line.
>
> Alan

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@n...> wrote:
> Ed Okerson wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I used rubber hose, actually vacuum line from the auto parts
store. Clamp
> > it on the shaft and threaded rod with hose clamps. With that
setup
> > alignment of the motor to the rod is not that critical.
> >
> > Ed
> >
>
> Yep that works well too, but takes another bearing at the motor
end. Once I
> got good enough at how to get things to align properly, I just let
the motor
> shaft be the other alignment point.
>
>
> And either drill a point hole for the set screw, or tighten it
really tight
> to cut its sharp edge into the metal. Either way get the screw in
tight, then
> back it out just a little on one side of the coupler and loctite
it. That will
> give it just a little bit of wiggle room while still keeping
things locked together.
>
> Really the hose works fine and is a bit easier, but you must
have the ball
> bearing. Hard to find not rolled hose, so even a short piece will
be trying to
> put an angle at the shaft to rod connection. Takes very little of
that to bind
> things when you have a nut traveling on the rod.
>
> Also forgot to mention that the tool is the $18 or so Handi
from wall mart.
> Very smooth, I like it better than my dremel. But dremel has
quite a few newer
> models now, so maybe some are better.
>
> NIB magnets with silicone or plastidip around them make
excellent temp hold
> downs too, put screws or other magnets into the board to hold
things down.
> Clamps work too but the magnets can do the job and don't get in
the way as much
> as the clamps.
>
> Alan

>
> In a message dated 5/30/2005 10:49:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> leon.heller@... writes:
>
> You get couplings that take up misalignment, like Oldham couplings.
>

>
> Trouble with those is, they do not "fasten" the "motor-end" of the screw. I
> simply machined hollow hubs with "interference-fit" bores for screw-end and
> motor-shaft, oh, but NOT "set-screws", but CLAMP type fit. Required a bit
> more care in machining, but result is the screw is axial with the motor and is
> rigid, depending on motor's bearings for thrust AND radial bearing.
>
>

> Hi Alan,
>
> How about a couple of extra pictures? Would help in building mine.
>
> 1. the mounting of the screw end opposite to the motor with bearings
>
> 2. Close up of the nuts on the screw shaft.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Myc
>

> You should now see THREE of plotter, showing motors and screws, and ONE of
> CNC PCB Drill.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:
> These two just do NOT want to be uploaded!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> You should be able to post the pictures to the 'Photos' section of

> group. From all indications, attachments are just not permitted on
> posts.
>
>
> Regards, Bob
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:
> > These two just do NOT want to be uploaded!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> I've just used CustomPCB in Kuala Lumpur for a small run of 30 single-
> sided PCBs. They were a lot cheaper than my usual suppliers, quality
> was excellent and I got them in about 10 days.
>
> http://www.custompcb.com/
>
> Leon
>

> Hi Alan,
>
> How about a couple of extra pictures? Would help in building mine.
>
> 1. the mounting of the screw end opposite to the motor with bearings
>
> 2. Close up of the nuts on the screw shaft.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Myc

>
> Ah, there is the drawback, your lower rails have to be twice as long as what
> you want to cut with a sliding table. The distance it can travel is minus the
> length of the table. Mine can do 1' x 1' while only being 18" square (for the
> cutting area part, I have a bigger table with the motor mounted out of the way,
> it could be closer). It'd take 30" or so to cut the same with a split table.
> My machine is pretty small and portable too, thought about hanging it on the
> wall. That was it, if you start making a larger table then 2x
>