Homebrew_PCBs

does anybody have/use a wooden CNC router (DIY) with a Dremel for punching
holes into a PCB?
repeatability - accuracy - over all precision?

is the Dremel run-out good enough for 20 mil (0.5 mm) bits? or what's the
minimum non breaking size?






____________________________________________________________________________________
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.

I have built my own. I am using Dremel and I could
able to use 0.0135" (~0.34mm) bits without any
breaking. I have also tried to use 0.0083" (~0.21mm)
bits but no way with Dremel, I think 0.0135" is the
limit.
Cheers,
Volkan

> ... is the Dremel run-out good enough for 20 mil

(0.5

> mm) bits?

Herbert,

I am building my second router now - the first one is a larger
woodworking router, this one is a small one for PCB milling and
drilling.

You can build something with as much precision as you would like, it
just depends on budget, knowledge, and the components selected for
the task. Both of my machines use both wood and aluminum as well as
other materials.

Myself, I avoid dremel type tool at all costs as they really don't
have good, true running spindles nor are they "quick change" as
standard.

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett"
<cachureos@...> wrote:

>
> does anybody have/use a wooden CNC router (DIY) with a Dremel for

punching

> holes into a PCB?
> repeatability - accuracy - over all precision?
>
> is the Dremel run-out good enough for 20 mil (0.5 mm) bits? or

what's the

> minimum non breaking size?

>
> Myself, I avoid dremel type tool at all costs as they really don't
> have good, true running spindles nor are they "quick change" as
> standard.
>

Chris,

what tool to you recommend instead of Dremel type?

Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Neil,

That is a very tough question and I don't have a good answer. I
make my own spindles so as to avoid those issues. However, if I had
to use an off-the shelf tool, I would look at the Proxon brand tool
as opposed to the Dremel brand.

Another option is if you can find a mini-drill press type machine
and adapt it's headstock to your machine. I recall seeing some in
the model building catalogs but don't recall any brand names.

Of importance in a spindle, this is what I found to be important:

* MINIMAL spindle runout - it the drill bit wobbles it will break!
* Spindle must be perpendicular to the table!
* Easy change of tools - it gets to be a pain when using collets
* Good spindle speeds - Don't get too caught up in the 100,000 RPM
speed recomendations. You only need that speed if you want to drill
the holes at a fast feed rate. You can drill perfectly fine at 1500
RPM- just use a slower feed rate. For hobby use if you can get
somewhere between 2000 and 10000 RPM you are in pretty good shape.

Chris





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Baylis"
<neil.baylis@...> wrote:

>
> >
> > Myself, I avoid dremel type tool at all costs as they really

don't

> > have good, true running spindles nor are they "quick change" as
> > standard.
> >
>
> Chris,
>
> what tool to you recommend instead of Dremel type?
>
> Neil
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

> Of importance in a spindle, this is what I found to be important:
>
> * MINIMAL spindle runout - it the drill bit wobbles it will break!
> * Spindle must be perpendicular to the table!
> * Easy change of tools - it gets to be a pain when using collets
> * Good spindle speeds - Don't get too caught up in the 100,000 RPM
> speed recomendations. You only need that speed if you want to drill
> the holes at a fast feed rate. You can drill perfectly fine at 1500
> RPM- just use a slower feed rate. For hobby use if you can get
> somewhere between 2000 and 10000 RPM you are in pretty good shape.
>
> Chris

Chris,

I was wondering if a Foredom type handpiece might be sufficient. They
are definitely built to a higher standard than Dremel. They have some
that take collets and have a nicely cylindrical body for easy
clamping. I think I might order one and see how good the runout is.

Neil

Neil,

Yes, those are very good quality tools and made for industrial use
(at least the models I have seen). I would suspect that it would
work well for a spindle but have not had any hands-on experience
with them.

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Baylis"
<neil.baylis@...> wrote:

>
> > Of importance in a spindle, this is what I found to be

important:

> >
> > * MINIMAL spindle runout - it the drill bit wobbles it will

break!

> > * Spindle must be perpendicular to the table!
> > * Easy change of tools - it gets to be a pain when using collets
> > * Good spindle speeds - Don't get too caught up in the 100,000

RPM

> > speed recomendations. You only need that speed if you want to

drill

> > the holes at a fast feed rate. You can drill perfectly fine at

1500

> > RPM- just use a slower feed rate. For hobby use if you can get
> > somewhere between 2000 and 10000 RPM you are in pretty good

shape.

> >
> > Chris
>
> Chris,
>
> I was wondering if a Foredom type handpiece might be sufficient.

They

> are definitely built to a higher standard than Dremel. They have

some

> that take collets and have a nicely cylindrical body for easy
> clamping. I think I might order one and see how good the runout is.
>
> Neil
>

http://www.kleinbauer.com/

Go to plans and select Brute machine. The Brute is capable of PCB
drilling and milling. Good luck, Mike

>> does anybody have/use a wooden CNC router (DIY) with a Dremel for

punching

>> holes into a PCB?
>> repeatability - accuracy - over all precision?

>> is the Dremel run-out good enough for 20 mil (0.5 mm) bits? or what's the
>> minimum non breaking size?

You can see some of the results I get with a dremel tool CNC router:



http://www.probotix.com/pcb_milling_and_routing



My mill was built for less money than one of those wooden routers using
high-end components found off of eBay. I spent about $300 on precision
linear slides.



You will find pics of my CNC router here:



http://www.probotix.com/prototype_desktop_cnc_mill



I use PCB-GCODE to convert my Eagle files to g-code. I can easily cut 16 mil
traces.

>Len

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Len Shelton <len@...> wrote:
...

> My mill was built for less money than one of those wooden routers using
> high-end components found off of eBay. I spent about $300 on precision
> linear slides.

that's the problem...
I have no access to eBay and would have to import those 'precision' slides!

(BTW, wooden is not a must, just a generic concept and sounds easy)



____________________________________________________________________________________
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Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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What do you reckon a person could build there own PCB Drill for, if they had to buy all the components?

I can Layout and Etch my own boards, but I'm referring to controller components, steppers, slides and hardware.

----- Original Message -----
From: Herbert E. Plett
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 11:56 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Wooden CNC router



--- Len Shelton <len@...> wrote:
...
> My mill was built for less money than one of those wooden routers using
> high-end components found off of eBay. I spent about $300 on precision
> linear slides.

that's the problem...
I have no access to eBay and would have to import those 'precision' slides!

(BTW, wooden is not a must, just a generic concept and sounds easy)

__________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Len S wrote:
>
> My mill was built for less money than
> one of those wooden routers using
> high-end components found off of eBay.
> I spent about $300 on precision linear
> slides.
> <snip>

Problem with ebay is - every time I see
nice motion control stuff for sale it
says "will ship to southern california
only. In fact only within 3 streets of
my place. If you live in Australia go
and get shafted"

Even on contacting the seller a few
times they have acted as though
Queensland is a province in Nigeria and
I am only emailing them to buy the parts
because my real intention is to tell
them that I am a former genral in the
army and have 17 million dollars I need
to smuggle into America and need their
help.

In a message dated 12/7/2006 6:24:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,
rwskinner@... writes:

What do you reckon a person could build there own PCB Drill for, if they had
to buy all the components?



If you have the TIME to read through hundreds of "ad pages" in magazines and
buy and try steppers and hardware offered, and have patience to live-over
having wasted much money, and you are a VERY good hunter of such goodies, you
might cobble something almost-useful for $1000. But if you want to have SOME
success within weeks of beginning, so buy KNOWN-USEFUL steppers and good
drives like the Xylotex or Gecko drives, and can design a decent buffer PCB with
at least a 74HCT541 and preferably a 74HCT02, etc., for "motor-on/off latch,"
etc., and want it to WORK well, you will need at least Bishop-Wisecarver
rails and ball-bearing "V-wheels", and/or Thomson or equiv. linear ball bearings
and hardened round-ways, and know HOW to mount all that properly. You will
also need some decent quill-motor like a Proxon, or, if you are creative, a
400 Hz. 3-ph. motor with 1/8" collet/nut on its shaft, VERY precisely mounted
to that shaft, and a 400 Hz. inverter circuit to power that. But this
high-freq. approach DOES take some experience with things-electronic, though the
result is FAR superior to a "brush motor" (aka "universal motor"). Also, you
can get away with GOOD ACME screws and PRELOADED Turcite (glass-filled
Teflon) nuts from one of the "precision screw makers" like Ball Screws and
Actuators or a couple of others, names I cannot recall as I have never actually used
other makes of screws.

Plan on using excellent cabinetmaking expertise and Baltic birch plywood for
the carcass, and preferably light-colored Formica for the top, so
double-stick "poster tape" will work well thereon, without doing damage. It takes some
years of fiddling with such to be able to cobble something that works OK, if
you are just beginning to brew your own such machinery.

After all that, if you do not waste and build efficiently, you might do it
for less than $2000. I am envisioning "about what I have in MY PCB drill",
and what I'd do differently, were I to do an all-new one, and I am CERTAINLY
not including all the "learning expenses" of 35 years of home-brewing.

Carbide PCB drill-bits INSIST upon slop-free movement, and logic that
ENSURES the drill is UP and STEADY before moving to the next X,Y begins, and STEADY
for drilling. Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JanRwl@... writes:

> <snip>

Ok, now I'm drooling.

Have you an image of your unit?



My informative TAGLINE follows:

CHECKOUT my experience with my lack of help from I-MATE in regards to my
JASJAR at www.gizmoman.net/i-mate.htm
<outbind://4/www.gizmoman.net/i-mate.htm>


_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Volkan Sahin
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 7:38 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Wooden CNC router



I have built my own. I am using Dremel and I could
able to use 0.0135" (~0.34mm) bits without any
breaking. I have also tried to use 0.0083" (~0.21mm)
bits but no way with Dremel, I think 0.0135" is the
limit.
Cheers,
Volkan

> ... is the Dremel run-out good enough for 20 mil

(0.5

> mm) bits?

For a list of current designs, projects and engineering tasks as well as
radio's, electronics, gadgets and gizmo's for sale visit http://www.gizmoman.net

This email has been addressed to Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com and sent from
Peter May peter@.... Please notify sentspam@...
if you feel this message is SPAM.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wow, this sounds as a DIY drill is a complete nonsense...


--- JanRwl@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 12/7/2006 6:24:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> rwskinner@... writes:
>
> What do you reckon a person could build there own PCB Drill for, if they had
>
> to buy all the components?
>
>
>
> If you have the TIME to read through hundreds of "ad pages" in magazines and
>
> buy and try steppers and hardware offered, and have patience to live-over
> having wasted much money, and you are a VERY good hunter of such goodies,
> you
> might cobble something almost-useful for $1000. But if you want to have
> SOME
> success within weeks of beginning, so buy KNOWN-USEFUL steppers and good
> drives like the Xylotex or Gecko drives, and can design a decent buffer PCB
> with
> at least a 74HCT541 and preferably a 74HCT02, etc., for "motor-on/off
> latch,"
> etc., and want it to WORK well, you will need at least Bishop-Wisecarver
> rails and ball-bearing "V-wheels", and/or Thomson or equiv. linear ball
> bearings
> and hardened round-ways, and know HOW to mount all that properly. You will
> also need some decent quill-motor like a Proxon, or, if you are creative, a
> 400 Hz. 3-ph. motor with 1/8" collet/nut on its shaft, VERY precisely
> mounted
> to that shaft, and a 400 Hz. inverter circuit to power that. But this
> high-freq. approach DOES take some experience with things-electronic, though
> the
> result is FAR superior to a "brush motor" (aka "universal motor"). Also,
> you
> can get away with GOOD ACME screws and PRELOADED Turcite (glass-filled
> Teflon) nuts from one of the "precision screw makers" like Ball Screws and
> Actuators or a couple of others, names I cannot recall as I have never
> actually used
> other makes of screws.
>
> Plan on using excellent cabinetmaking expertise and Baltic birch plywood for
>
> the carcass, and preferably light-colored Formica for the top, so
> double-stick "poster tape" will work well thereon, without doing damage. It
> takes some
> years of fiddling with such to be able to cobble something that works OK, if
>
> you are just beginning to brew your own such machinery.
>
> After all that, if you do not waste and build efficiently, you might do it
> for less than $2000. I am envisioning "about what I have in MY PCB drill",
> and what I'd do differently, were I to do an all-new one, and I am CERTAINLY
>
> not including all the "learning expenses" of 35 years of home-brewing.
>
> Carbide PCB drill-bits INSIST upon slop-free movement, and logic that
> ENSURES the drill is UP and STEADY before moving to the next X,Y begins, and
> STEADY
> for drilling. Jan Rowland
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.

>> wow, this sounds as a DIY drill is a complete nonsense...

No, don't let other peoples bad experiences discourage you. You can get good
results with a little research, patience, common sense, and finesse.

Many guys have great results with their sloppy dremel tools and roller skate
bearing linear slides. It is definitely worth the effort. Not only is it
enjoyable and gratifying, it sure beats drilling hundreds of holes by hand.

If you haven't already - check out cnczone.com. There is a huge community
(some 30,000 plus) who share their experiences and save you a lot of
headaches.

>Len

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Len Shelton wrote:

>>> wow, this sounds as a DIY drill is a complete nonsense...

FWIW...

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/pcbcnc/cncindex.htm
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Homemade_PCB_equipment/Scott%27s%20PCB%20CNC%20Drill/

Scott

Considering Jan Rowland runs CNC machine on Commodore PETs in BASIC, he
probably thinks that message is a pretty funny joke.

It's the same as saying your car isn't suitable to drive to work, you need
at least a Porsche, and not one of the cheap ones.

Anyway, don't worry about it. Go build something out of junk, it'll work
well enough. Plenty of other people have. I've seen one when a bloke
bolted 2 printer carriages together.

Given people drill holes by hand, you don't need to all that accurate
(0.25mm is more than enough), so the bit about "Bishop-Wisecarver rails",
"ball-bearing V-wheels", "linear ball bearings" is mainly crap. Unless
you're doing this at a commercial board maker, but then you would't be here.
And they buy, not build,

It's not a mill or router, so there are no side loads. So the table doesn't
need to all that stiff, so skip the "PRELOADED Turcite (glass-filled Teflon)
nuts" as it isn't going to move anyway. The money you save can be spent on
better things, like booze, hookers and blackjack.

I drill boards by hand with a crappy plastic drill press and a Dremel clone.
Works fine. Some people don't even both with the drill press. The comment
made by Jan about carbide bits being fragile is spot on, but you get the
hang of it after breaking the first dozen or so.

There's a bloke on this list (Stefan?) who made a drill press by taking long
2 boards, putting a hinge on one end, clamped the Dremel to the top one and
placed the PCB on the lower. (And the wankers moaned about that, IIRC).
Cheap, and work wells when you consider the parameters that PCB drilling
works under. You only need 10mm (3/8" for the uneducated) of vertical
travel, and as the boards are long, the bit stays parallel as it goes thru
the board. As you'd expect since PCBs aren't 100mm thick. Ghetto tech at
its finest.

So yeah, grab some cheap construction grade plywood (or MDF), or even some
plastic chopping boards, some shower rail (or printer guides, can't beat the
price or a junked printer), a bit of threaded rod and get to it. You don't
need huge steppers, a PCB isn't that much weight to move about, so the
electronics are cheap too. Pull a PC out of a dumpster to run it using
TurboCNC.

It doesn't matter if it's slow, if it take you 30 minutes and the machine
60, who cares? Who wants to do it by hand?

Plus it's fun to build it, and a learning experience. (Then put touch probe
in it to scan stuff, more fun.)

The DIY-CNC group has more info. Have a look at www.crankorgan.com too.

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herbert E. Plett
> Sent: Saturday, 9 December 2006 2:07 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Wooden CNC router
>
> wow, this sounds as a DIY drill is a complete nonsense...
>
>
> --- JanRwl@... wrote:
>
> >
> > In a message dated 12/7/2006 6:24:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> > rwskinner@... writes:
> >
> > What do you reckon a person could build there own PCB
> Drill for, if
> > they had
> >
> > to buy all the components?
> >
> >
> >
> > If you have the TIME to read through hundreds of "ad pages" in
> > magazines and
> >
> > buy and try steppers and hardware offered, and have patience to
> > live-over having wasted much money, and you are a VERY good
> hunter of
> > such goodies, you might cobble something almost-useful for
> $1000. But
> > if you want to have SOME success within weeks of beginning, so buy
> > KNOWN-USEFUL steppers and good drives like the Xylotex or Gecko
> > drives, and can design a decent buffer PCB with at least a
> 74HCT541
> > and preferably a 74HCT02, etc., for "motor-on/off latch,"
> > etc., and want it to WORK well, you will need at least
> > Bishop-Wisecarver rails and ball-bearing "V-wheels", and/or
> Thomson or
> > equiv. linear ball bearings and hardened round-ways, and
> know HOW to
> > mount all that properly. You will also need some decent
> quill-motor
> > like a Proxon, or, if you are creative, a 400 Hz. 3-ph. motor with
> > 1/8" collet/nut on its shaft, VERY precisely mounted to
> that shaft,
> > and a 400 Hz. inverter circuit to power that. But this high-freq.
> > approach DOES take some experience with things-electronic,
> though the
> > result is FAR superior to a "brush motor" (aka "universal
> motor"). Also,
> > you
> > can get away with GOOD ACME screws and PRELOADED Turcite
> > (glass-filled
> > Teflon) nuts from one of the "precision screw makers" like Ball
> > Screws and Actuators or a couple of others, names I cannot
> recall as
> > I have never actually used other makes of screws.
> >
> > Plan on using excellent cabinetmaking expertise and Baltic birch
> > plywood for
> >
> > the carcass, and preferably light-colored Formica for the top, so
> > double-stick "poster tape" will work well thereon, without doing
> > damage. It takes some years of fiddling with such to be able to
> > cobble something that works OK, if
> >
> > you are just beginning to brew your own such machinery.
> >
> > After all that, if you do not waste and build efficiently,
> you might
> > do it for less than $2000. I am envisioning "about what I
> have in MY
> > PCB drill", and what I'd do differently, were I to do an
> all-new one,
> > and I am CERTAINLY
> >
> > not including all the "learning expenses" of 35 years of
> home-brewing.
> >
> > Carbide PCB drill-bits INSIST upon slop-free movement, and
> logic that
> > ENSURES the drill is UP and STEADY before moving to the next X,Y
> > begins, and STEADY
> > for drilling. Jan Rowland
> >
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ______________________
> Have a burning question?
> Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links,
> Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:49:51 +0100, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>
wrote:

>
> There's a bloke on this list (Stefan?) who made a drill press by taking
> long
> 2 boards, putting a hinge on one end, clamped the Dremel to the top one
> and
> placed the PCB on the lower. (And the wankers moaned about that, IIRC).
> Cheap, and work wells when you consider the parameters that PCB drilling
> works under. You only need 10mm (3/8" for the uneducated) of vertical
> travel, and as the boards are long, the bit stays parallel as it goes
> thru
> the board. As you'd expect since PCBs aren't 100mm thick. Ghetto tech
> at
> its finest.

I made one, but it was suggested by someone else.
Still use it, works great, smallest drills i have are 0.5mm and those work
just fine.
Breakage only due to accident (pushing somehing sideways against the drill
etc.).

I have no problems now to noticeably dull drills with this machine, so i
get quite some life out of them ;-)

Use a proxxon though no dremel.

I agree with you that a useful CNC could be built far cheaper than was
suggested, at some point when i have more time and space i'll build mine.

ST

Thanks Tony, After I stay up all night on a coffee buzz, building circuits and boards and stuff, I know My old eye sight is't all that great and I can still drill a few hundred holes by hand with handheld dremel and 032 carbide bit and you know that my hands proabably aren't all that steady at that point :) I bet I have busted 1/2 a dozen carbide drills over the years hand drilling so that's not to bad. It's just that doing it by hand isn't as fun as it was when I did my first one !

My worst expriences is trying to cut to size my PCB's without causing bodily injury! Dang them dudes don't cut all that great. My best method is a die grinder and vut off wheel then polish to size while cleaning up the edges. I like the upside down, table mounted jig saw I had seen, but I'm not sure how well that would work out.

I've been wanting to do this for some time, and just never sit down and do it. I heard of some folks pre-loading their X-Y tables with rubber bads in ordered to help minimize the "slack". It's almost like using an old worn out lath, where you always turn out to far then slowly go back in intil your where you need to be on the dial. Kind of a backlash removal process.

The electronics portion for me should be pretty easy, just the hardware for the XYZ slides has me a little baffled on what to use and where to get.

Thanks for the replies..
Richard

----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Smith



Given people drill holes by hand, you don't need to all that accurate
(0.25mm is more than enough),
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The way I cut PCBs is with a diamond wheel on a Dremel-type roaty tool
under water (just a slow stream from the tap). If you omit the water,
the wheel heats up and loses diamond particles quickly. It works very
well, and with the water, the wheel is not visibly worn after a large
amounts of cutting.
You can get the wheels for something like $3 a piece on eBay etc.


Richard wrote:

>
>
> Thanks Tony, After I stay up all night on a coffee buzz, building
> circuits and boards and stuff, I know My old eye sight is't all that
> great and I can still drill a few hundred holes by hand with handheld
> dremel and 032 carbide bit and you know that my hands proabably aren't
> all that steady at that point :) I bet I have busted 1/2 a dozen carbide
> drills over the years hand drilling so that's not to bad. It's just that
> doing it by hand isn't as fun as it was when I did my first one !
>
> My worst expriences is trying to cut to size my PCB's without causing
> bodily injury! Dang them dudes don't cut all that great. My best method
> is a die grinder and vut off wheel then polish to size while cleaning up
> the edges. I like the upside down, table mounted jig saw I had seen, but
> I'm not sure how well that would work out.
>
> I've been wanting to do this for some time, and just never sit down and
> do it. I heard of some folks pre-loading their X-Y tables with rubber
> bads in ordered to help minimize the "slack". It's almost like using an
> old worn out lath, where you always turn out to far then slowly go back
> in intil your where you need to be on the dial. Kind of a backlash
> removal process.
>
> The electronics portion for me should be pretty easy, just the hardware
> for the XYZ slides has me a little baffled on what to use and where to get.
>
> Thanks for the replies..
> Richard
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tony Smith
>
> Given people drill holes by hand, you don't need to all that accurate
> (0.25mm is more than enough),
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This is what you want: http://www.milinst.com/robotics/5_300s.jpg. This is
sold as a kit to schools. Laminated MDF, drawer slides and doesn't even use
screws, it uses dial cord, like found in old radios. I can hear the "you
must use gold plated ball screws" crowd having a fit from here.

Brief details here: http://www.milinst.com/robotics/robotics.htm#axis,
assembly manual here: http://www.milinst.com/robotics/5_300mnl.pdf

They claim 0.1mm accuracy, with 20 holes per min, and I see no reason to
doubt them. You're not going to mill steel on this, or churn out 1000
boards a day, but that's not the point. You could be faster by hand, but as
you say, it gets old after the first few.

If you tried to carve wood with this machine then the amount of flex comes
into play, but for drilling it just isn't relevant.

You could replace the cable drive system with screws. Say you used threaded
rod with a 1mm pitch, a single rotation will move the table 1mm. A lot of
steppers will do 200 steps per rotation, so your table will move 1/200mm per
step. In the real world it won't, of course, but getting decent accuracy
isn't that hard. You find a lot of 48 step motors too, but they tend to be
low power. Still enough to push that table about though.

The software can compensate for backlash, but isn't ideal as the amount of
backlash varies, given the screws will wear more in different spots. On the
flip side, it won't kill your wallet to buy some new threaded rod.

One way to preload the table is to use tape measures. You may not have
noticed, but they exert a constant force no matter how much tape is pulled
out. They use coiled springs, like in clocks (aka negator springs).

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: Sunday, 10 December 2006 6:48 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Wooden CNC router
>
> Thanks Tony, After I stay up all night on a coffee buzz,
> building circuits and boards and stuff, I know My old eye
> sight is't all that great and I can still drill a few hundred
> holes by hand with handheld dremel and 032 carbide bit and
> you know that my hands proabably aren't all that steady at
> that point :) I bet I have busted 1/2 a dozen carbide drills
> over the years hand drilling so that's not to bad. It's just
> that doing it by hand isn't as fun as it was when I did my first one !
>
> My worst expriences is trying to cut to size my PCB's without
> causing bodily injury! Dang them dudes don't cut all that
> great. My best method is a die grinder and vut off wheel
> then polish to size while cleaning up the edges. I like the
> upside down, table mounted jig saw I had seen, but I'm not
> sure how well that would work out.
>
> I've been wanting to do this for some time, and just never
> sit down and do it. I heard of some folks pre-loading their
> X-Y tables with rubber bads in ordered to help minimize the
> "slack". It's almost like using an old worn out lath, where
> you always turn out to far then slowly go back in intil your
> where you need to be on the dial. Kind of a backlash removal process.
>
> The electronics portion for me should be pretty easy, just
> the hardware for the XYZ slides has me a little baffled on
> what to use and where to get.
>
> Thanks for the replies..
> Richard

> Tony Smith wrote:

> The money you save can be spent on better
> things, like booze, hookers and blackjack.

Check out another yahoo group "homedistillers"
and quit gambling then you can have exrta
money left over and you can pay the hookers
to drill your PCBs for you :D

I just found a great way to cut PCB's. The local media arts teacher
had an old manual paper cutter. It is a big beast but it works great.
It is about 2 1/2 to 3 foot square and has a big long lever that
shears against the blade on the side of the cutter. It cuts FR4
without a problem. I have made 10 inch cuts along the length of an 8 x
10 inch copper clad board with it. It just shears right off. It also
makes a nice sound while cutting that gets my students worried. They
allways ask if I'm cutting my arm off. The electronics guys at USU
have an old sheet metal shear that works even better. It is foot
powered and just chops the stuff apart like nothing.

Bryan Jackson

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <rwskinner@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Tony, After I stay up all night on a coffee buzz, building
circuits and boards and stuff, I know My old eye sight is't all that
great and I can still drill a few hundred holes by hand with handheld
dremel and 032 carbide bit and you know that my hands proabably aren't
all that steady at that point :) I bet I have busted 1/2 a dozen
carbide drills over the years hand drilling so that's not to bad.
It's just that doing it by hand isn't as fun as it was when I did my
first one !
>
> My worst expriences is trying to cut to size my PCB's without
causing bodily injury! Dang them dudes don't cut all that great. My
best method is a die grinder and vut off wheel then polish to size
while cleaning up the edges. I like the upside down, table mounted
jig saw I had seen, but I'm not sure how well that would work out.
>

I don't want to dampen your spirits, but FR4 is surprisingly
abrasive. Even with a 3-foot, heavy-duty sheetmetal shear (PEXTO),
it can dull the blade for other purposes. I worked in a shop once
that kept two such shears for that reason, one for FR4 and the other
for everything else. It is quick and does do a nice job, though.
John

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "bryanandaimee"
<bryanandaimee@...> wrote:

>
> I just found a great way to cut PCB's. The local media arts teacher
> had an old manual paper cutter. It is a big beast but it works

great.

> It is about 2 1/2 to 3 foot square and has a big long lever that
> shears against the blade on the side of the cutter. It cuts FR4
> without a problem. I have made 10 inch cuts along the length of an

8 x

> 10 inch copper clad board with it. It just shears right off. It also
> makes a nice sound while cutting that gets my students worried. They
> allways ask if I'm cutting my arm off. The electronics guys at USU
> have an old sheet metal shear that works even better. It is foot
> powered and just chops the stuff apart like nothing.
>
> Bryan Jackson
>

I have a standard X-Acto paper cutter that works (barely) for 0.031"
FR4.

Normally, I use #2 scroll saw blades on 0.062, which are good for
about a foot or two before they need to be replaced. Fortunately,
they're cheap. Next time I'm at the store, though, I'm going to pick
up a v-scoring bit and see how that works out on my router table.

On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:31:04 +0100, jpanhalt <janhalt@...> wrote:

> I don't want to dampen your spirits, but FR4 is surprisingly
> abrasive. Even with a 3-foot, heavy-duty sheetmetal shear (PEXTO),
> it can dull the blade for other purposes. I worked in a shop once
> that kept two such shears for that reason, one for FR4 and the other
> for everything else. It is quick and does do a nice job, though.
> John

While that is true, i have found shearing causes surprisingly little wear
compared to other ways of cutting it (say for example with some kind of
saw).
I use a lever-operated shear similar to this one for my boards:
<http://www.schaller-maschinen-ag.ch/Handhebelschere_002.jpg>

The blade is long enough for most cuts (and you can feed through for
longer ones). It's far cheaper than a wide bench shear, i have seen those
starting at 50eur. I'm not worried at all that i could put any significant
amount of wear on the blades in my lifetime, and replacements are fairly
cheap (around 10 or 15 eur, but those will probably not fit my shear).

Before that i used a handheld sheetmetal shear and that still cuts paper.

If you do many, many boards it probably pays soon to have two shears, but
i doubt that you will do damage to your shear if you use it for a board
every now and then.

ST

I used paper cutters for a while, but good paper cutters now days are expensive, and you need a "Good" one. They do not stay sharp for long.

The metal sheer works great. I have a little small one I found at a garage sell. I'm not sure what it's for but it only accepts something no wider than 6" and it will sheet the board nice and smooth. This is my preferred method especially when shearing board with photo sensitizer already on them.

Richard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Be VERY careful with the router. Mine yanked the board out of my hand and scared the heck out of me.
I'm not doing that again. I didn't have a large enough board to hold on to.

----- Original Message -----
From: DJ Delorie
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Wooden CNC router



I have a standard X-Acto paper cutter that works (barely) for 0.031"
FR4.

Normally, I use #2 scroll saw blades on 0.062, which are good for
about a foot or two before they need to be replaced. Fortunately,
they're cheap. Next time I'm at the store, though, I'm going to pick
up a v-scoring bit and see how that works out on my router table.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Richard" <rwskinner@...> writes:

> Be VERY careful with the router. Mine yanked the board out of my
> hand and scared the heck out of me. I'm not doing that again. I
> didn't have a large enough board to hold on to.

Yeah, I've done small stuff before. I have a set of safety grips I
use, plus the table is precise enough to actually *do* v-slotting in
31mil boards (http://www.delorie.com/wood/projects/router/) so I don't
need to worry about it accidentally grabbing more than I expect
height-wise.

Plus, I'm paranoid enough to worry anyway, even if nobody says so :-)

Pardon, I just joined the list a few days ago, and so I was wondering:
regarding the Wooden CNC router, is this one listmember's machine, or are
there plans floating around for a machine?

I've got a cnc-converted taig mill, but I'm thinking about building a small
router out of plywood or MDF to use as a PCB mill and as a positioner for a
3D printing extrusion head.

Regards,
Sebastien Bailard
RepRap.org - self-replicating 3D printer project.

Hi Sebastion,

Look here:

http://www.cnczone.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&file=viewcategory&cid=2

The JGRO is supposed to be pretty good but the "Joes CNC Model 2006 R-1"
gets raves for a larger router. Lots of ideas on the whole site. Be sure to
register. It is way easier because the site keeps track of which posts you
have read and there's no spam I've ever seen. I spend too much time there
just getting ideas. I'm too lazy to go finish mine.

Mike Nash

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sebastien Bailard"
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Wooden CNC router


> Pardon, I just joined the list a few days ago, and so I was wondering:
> regarding the Wooden CNC router, is this one listmember's machine, or are
> there plans floating around for a machine?
>
> I've got a cnc-converted taig mill, but I'm thinking about building a
> small
> router out of plywood or MDF to use as a PCB mill and as a positioner for
> a
> 3D printing extrusion head.
>
> Regards,
> Sebastien Bailard
> RepRap.org - self-replicating 3D printer project.

I am working with a friend to make a small router. 10x10 x 2 work
area or maybe a little larger.

it would be made of MDF, so there is no metal cutting by the machine.

Our first goal is for the home guys who do not want to make one all
from scratch and find the $2,000 machines just too pricey.

The unit will be set to use with a Dremel or roto-zip or some other
light weight tool.

One goal or option is to offer a floating head so a etcher/engraving
cutter could be used to cut traces (actually cut isolation of traces)
for PCBs.

We are not ready for the market just yet. should be there by the end
of January. But, we are very interested in what you would want is a
starter machine.

It all started from the desire to have a low cost pcb drilling machine.

We anticipate offering the machine only. the machine and a full
electronics package, power supply, motor, everything but the Dremel.

and, also the electronics as a shopping list so you can pick and
choose what you need and supply the rest from your storeroom.

Any suggestions on what you are looking for ? what features you want ?

for doing PCB's we would offer a vacuum table, but also will include
the plans for making a vacuum table.

Dave

Dave,

Great idea. January, I trust that it is 2007), is around the corner
and it surely beats the machine from another fellow on this group
who promised the same 2.5 years ago. He sent out excatly the same
inquiery as yours. You certainly do have a sense of humor, Dave :)

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
wrote:

>
> I am working with a friend to make a small router. 10x10 x 2 work
> area or maybe a little larger.
>
> it would be made of MDF, so there is no metal cutting by the

machine.

>
> Our first goal is for the home guys who do not want to make one all
> from scratch and find the $2,000 machines just too pricey.
>
> The unit will be set to use with a Dremel or roto-zip or some other
> light weight tool.
>
> One goal or option is to offer a floating head so a

etcher/engraving

> cutter could be used to cut traces (actually cut isolation of

traces)

> for PCBs.
>
> We are not ready for the market just yet. should be there by the

end

> of January. But, we are very interested in what you would want

is a

> starter machine.
>
> It all started from the desire to have a low cost pcb drilling

machine.

>
> We anticipate offering the machine only. the machine and a full
> electronics package, power supply, motor, everything but the

Dremel.

>
> and, also the electronics as a shopping list so you can pick and
> choose what you need and supply the rest from your storeroom.
>
> Any suggestions on what you are looking for ? what features you

want ?

>
> for doing PCB's we would offer a vacuum table, but also will

include

> the plans for making a vacuum table.
>
> Dave
>

>We anticipate offering the machine only. the machine and a full
>electronics package, power supply, motor, everything but the Dremel.

Some competition;

http://maxnc.com/page12.html

Also, you should note that the $500.00 CNC turnkey or near turnkey
machine has been a pipe dream for at least the last 10 years. The most
successful in this area were those who made promises, collected but
never delivered. Frankly, even something genuine for $500.00 may be a
tough sell these days.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
wrote:

>

I called a company and they confirmed the price and that is a
permanent price for them. Dremel tool is not included in that price
but the controller is and can be seen in the back of the machine. They
include their software and that knowledge is not transportable to a
big CNC mill that a person might have one day. Overall it is a sweet
deal and if I were to buy an MDF cnc machine with controller and
software then my answer is obvious. OTOH, Derek is right by
saying "Frankly, even something genuine for $500.00 may be a tough
sell these days". And please do not forget that MaxNC does not include
isolation software and thus is only good for drilling of you nicely
done TT PCBs... :) I am still waiting for the machine announced 2.5
years ago. Mike

Mike, If you are waiting for "that" machine to show up, you might as
well invest in this bridge I have. It is located just outside Area51
in NV. It is the only bridge that crosses the great and mighty
Waukesha River and it is a toll road. I have drivers everyday giving
me hundreds of dollars to drive over it because it saves them so much
time in transit. For a mear $10,000 investment today, you can double
your money back in just 2 years!

As a side benefit to the drivers that cross this bridge, they get to
watch the "Ducks" migrate south for the Winter AND on a good day, they
will even see a Coyote catching a "Roadrunner" or two ;-) If you tune
to the right radio station while traveling this bridge you can hear
the constant play of the famous tongue twister...

"How much wood could a wood duck chuck if a wood duck could chuck wood"

All in jest ofcourse :-)

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@...> wrote:
> I am still waiting for the machine announced 2.5
> years ago. Mike
>

Guys,

I do think a DIY CNC kit for under $500 is certainly possible. I
think I have under $300 in materials in my home built setup,
including stepper motors and DIY controllers. It is similar to the
ones that John Kleinbauer sells plans for.

I haven't seen anything like that so far though.

Kevin


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Mike, If you are waiting for "that" machine to show up, you might

as

> well invest in this bridge I have. It is located just outside

Area51

> in NV. It is the only bridge that crosses the great and mighty
> Waukesha River and it is a toll road. I have drivers everyday

giving

> me hundreds of dollars to drive over it because it saves them so

much

> time in transit. For a mear $10,000 investment today, you can

double

> your money back in just 2 years!
>
> As a side benefit to the drivers that cross this bridge, they get

to

> watch the "Ducks" migrate south for the Winter AND on a good day,

they

> will even see a Coyote catching a "Roadrunner" or two ;-) If you

tune

> to the right radio station while traveling this bridge you can hear
> the constant play of the famous tongue twister...
>
> "How much wood could a wood duck chuck if a wood duck could chuck

wood"

>
> All in jest ofcourse :-)
>
> Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Morgan" <prizes@...> wrote:

>
> Guys,
>
> I do think a DIY CNC kit for under $500 is certainly possible. I
> think I have under $300 in materials in my home built setup,
> including stepper motors and DIY controllers. It is similar to the
> ones that John Kleinbauer sells plans for.
>
> I haven't seen anything like that so far though.
>
> Kevin
>

An under $500 CNC?

Well actually, there is a british one, but it uses drawer slides and
string wrapped aropund the stepper motor to move the axis.

As the saying goes, "Let the buyer beware!" Don't expect much, very
light duty. You really have to take a good look at the specifications.
As a business venture, there would be many compromises in accuracy,
quality and power to get a kit under $500.

Also consisder the level of difficulty in building the kit. What may be
easiest for the manufacturer, can be a bear for the builder. Aligning
the parts can be critical. (As in keeping those rods parallel or the
drawer slides even).

A dedicated hobbyist selling the kits would probably be working for
less than minimum wage. That will be fine for a while. But any true
business venture must calculate for reasonable labor, packaging,
overhead, insurance profit and support costs. Must not forget the
support!

Is software included? There are some free CNC programs - anyone for
Kellycam. Tne MaxNC has a proprietary software/driver that you are
stuck with.

Selling plans would probably make a business more money. But again,
there are ego driven business plans.

After having said all that, I can't wait to see it!

TANSTAAFL!*

Mycroft

*TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikezcnc" <eemikez@...> wrote:

>
> Dave,
>
> Great idea. January, I trust that it is 2007), is around the corner
> and it surely beats the machine from another fellow on this group
> who promised the same 2.5 years ago. He sent out excatly the same
> inquiery as yours. You certainly do have a sense of humor, Dave :)
>
> Mike

Actually, I had thought about this some 3-4 years ago when I got in
the hobby. I saw some obvious flaws to John K's plans. Mainly that
he is strictly and only using what can be had from Home Depot. if one
opens up the supply line to the internet, lots of things come much easier.

A John K machine will cost about $700 to build when all is said and
done. Just ask those who have built them.

also, his plans take a lot of work to make a machine. Some things are
just WAY easier to buy.

I had this idea, then once I started building it, that 'other' guy
came along and offered a $500.00 machine, well below the $850 I was
figuring I had to charge. that led me to toss out the idea. Then some
months later, it was announced that he could not do it for $500 but
would really need to get over $1,000. that bites.

So, here we are 2.5 years later, and a friend has come up with a
better way to make the frame and rails and such. I have streamlined
the electronical stuffs and we think we have a winner.

I have long past the idea I could do the whole thing myself.

So, once we get it up and running (and stop feature creep) to the
point we are satisfied, it will be out the door.

And, I cannot promise that it will remain at any price. but I would
offer it and take orders for said price. then, if I had to up the
price for any reason, only new orders would be effected.

I don't see it in less than 30 days, and I am not posting it on any
other group. heck, if it were not for the one post where a guy seemed
to need one, I would have have brought it up yet.

Any suggestions for a name ?, I was thinking "yes, really"

I would suggest that if anyone who is seriously interested, they
should contact me off-list. I don't think these lists are really
sales tools for manufacturers. product announcements, maybe, but not
business outlets.


Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Morgan" <prizes@...> wrote:

>
> Guys,
>
> I do think a DIY CNC kit for under $500 is certainly possible. I
> think I have under $300 in materials in my home built setup,
> including stepper motors and DIY controllers. It is similar to the
> ones that John Kleinbauer sells plans for.
>
> I haven't seen anything like that so far though.
>
> Kevin

To point out the costs, you can make a frame for under $50 and put in
rails of some sort or anther for, maybe $50 to $75. motors for $30 ?
a hobbyCNC driver kit for $80 and a power supply for maybe $100.00.
Figure in the neighborhood of $50 to $75 for all the shipping from
each of the suppliers. $5 here and $10 there adds up quickly.

Add wires and switches and all that and you are in the $450 range if
you can get the parts. if you have to spend more, the price goes up,
if you have a well stocked surplus bin, the price goes down.

We figure that with our time and such, we need to make some sort of
profit. I'd like to make about $10,000 on each machine, but alas, we
are not selling golden machines.

We figure it will take a few days to make a machine for us. a couple
weeks if you design and build your own.

So, we came up with a target price that was only a couple hundred more
than the cost of what you could scrape things together for.

I did offer a group buy for the SLA7078mpr chips on another list. it
looks like they would be about $6.80 per, and $4.05 for Priority mail
or $24.40 for three. I need to order 144 to meet the minimum order,
and once this is done, I would either sell them for $8 ea or just use
them for the new machines.

There is it. we are doing this in the basement and garage. we do
not have a shop or factory, so we do expect some things to change. We
also do not have a ton of start-up money, so we are doing it on the cheap.

I figure all of you have or are doing your stuff in a similar way at
some point.

Thanks for listening.

Dave

Dave,
I'd write to you off list, but I can't find an address for you. I'm very interested in a low-price CNC kit, even with a very small work envelope and for very light duty. The important thing is to have good directions and include everything (or at least the hard to get stuff) in the kit. I think that many of the people on this list would have the ability to do much of the fabrication and assembly of the kit themselves, so it would probably be simpler and cheaper for you to offer as many 'raw' materials as possible and let the user do the building themselves as much as possible. (i.e. cutting stock to length, soldering circuit boards, crimping wires, drilling holes, etc.)

Probably like many people on this list, I'd love to have a small CNC machine to 'play with'. I don't have the money to drop $2k for a ready-built machine, but I do have more money than time. So spending $900 for a kit where I can just walk through the instructions is much better for me than spending $500 on materials and having to take the time to design everything out myself, if that makes any sense.

*Brian

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Schmalz" <brian.s@...> wrote:

>
> Dave,
> I'd write to you off list, but I can't find an address for you.

dave_mucha at yahoo dot com

you have to put it together. I think that if I put it in a post, it
strips it off.


I'm very interested in a low-price CNC kit, even with a very small
work envelope and for very light duty. The important thing is to have
good directions and include everything (or at least the hard to get
stuff) in the kit. I think that many of the people on this list would
have the ability to do much of the fabrication and assembly of the kit
themselves, so it would probably be simpler and cheaper for you to
offer as many 'raw' materials as possible and let the user do the
building themselves as much as possible. (i.e. cutting stock to
length, soldering circuit boards, crimping wires, drilling holes, etc.)

>
> Probably like many people on this list, I'd love to have a small

CNC machine to 'play with'. I don't have the money to drop $2k for a
ready-built machine, but I do have more money than time. So spending
$900 for a kit where I can just walk through the instructions is much
better for me than spending $500 on materials and having to take the
time to design everything out myself, if that makes any sense.

>
> *Brian

I think you are exactly correct.

We looked at what is missing in the market.

I make a $5,000 Plasma cutter frame that is semi-custom and is for
small metal shops.

I looked at a heavier metal frame unit, but could not see how to get
under about $1,500 and then it was a lot of work.

My partner figured out how to make a solid machine and I do the
electronics.

the first couple will be completely assembeled, or 80% with some
things to bolt on once you get it. knocked down for shipping a little
bit.

It will include three steppers, drivers, power supply, end and e-stop
switches, and the demo copies of both Turbo-CNC and Mach.

Turbo CNC is a $60.00 program that runs in DOS on a Pentium 200 or better.

Mach is a Win-XP program that needs 1mhz or better

Also, a demo of WinQCAD. this schematic capture program does
schematic, manual parts layout and then auto-routing AND it also does
the trace isolation for making g-code that will run in Turbo-CNC or Mach.

Mach and WinQCAD are both $150.00 programs. and there is a post
processor, SheetCAM that would help to speed up file cutting paths but
would be a little overkill in the one board a day or two of a home shop.

Dave

>

>So spending $900 for a kit

This is real and not a kit;

http://maxnc.com/page12.html

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Schmalz" <brian.s@...>
wrote:

>

>I looked at a heavier metal frame unit, but could not see how to get
>under about $1,500 and then it was a lot of work.

This appears to be an excellent frame starting at $1,150.00;

http://www.k2cnc.com/Machines/CNC-router-KT-1414_detail.asp

Finishing with steppers on your own should keep the cost below $1500.00
IMO.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
wrote:

>

Hi Dave,

I really do wish you well on this project, I had seen some your designs from
a couple of years ago and they were well thought out. I have put aside my
$500 just in case....I don't mind taking advantage of a dedicated underpaid
hobbyist who comes up with a great design.

I AM looking for a real light duty machine to mostly drill pcbs and figure
it would cost me that much to "roll my own". I was looking at using the 8020
profiles for the rail, like Chris did.

How about a few design specs to whet our appetites? Work area size? Type of
rail, material, etc. Nothing etched in stone but something to give us an
idea of what you are talking about. Just to put things in perspective.

The $10 stepper motors is one indication of size, unless you got a real deal
somewhere.

The question is where does it fall between the british cnc ($300) and the
MaxNC ($1000).

Mycroft Holmes

On 12/19/06, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Kevin Morgan" <prizes@...> wrote:
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > I do think a DIY CNC kit for under $500 is certainly possible. I
> > think I have under $300 in materials in my home built setup,
> > including stepper motors and DIY controllers. It is similar to the
> > ones that John Kleinbauer sells plans for.
> >
> > I haven't seen anything like that so far though.
> >
> > Kevin
>
> To point out the costs, you can make a frame for under $50 and put in
> rails of some sort or anther for, maybe $50 to $75. motors for $30 ?
> a hobbyCNC driver kit for $80 and a power supply for maybe $100.00.
> Figure in the neighborhood of $50 to $75 for all the shipping from
> each of the suppliers. $5 here and $10 there adds up quickly.
>
> Add wires and switches and all that and you are in the $450 range if
> you can get the parts. if you have to spend more, the price goes up,
> if you have a well stocked surplus bin, the price goes down.
>
> We figure that with our time and such, we need to make some sort of
> profit. I'd like to make about $10,000 on each machine, but alas, we
> are not selling golden machines.
>
> We figure it will take a few days to make a machine for us. a couple
> weeks if you design and build your own.
>
> So, we came up with a target price that was only a couple hundred more
> than the cost of what you could scrape things together for.
>
> I did offer a group buy for the SLA7078mpr chips on another list. it
> looks like they would be about $6.80 per, and $4.05 for Priority mail
> or $24.40 for three. I need to order 144 to meet the minimum order,
> and once this is done, I would either sell them for $8 ea or just use
> them for the new machines.
>
> There is it. we are doing this in the basement and garage. we do
> not have a shop or factory, so we do expect some things to change. We
> also do not have a ton of start-up money, so we are doing it on the cheap.
>
> I figure all of you have or are doing your stuff in a similar way at
> some point.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Dave
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Dave,

Sounds like an interesting machine. Like I told the last guy, if you
can produce and sell a CNC router for under $500.00, my hats off to
you! That would impress the heck out of me.

I like the idea that you have not gone the path of a "hardware store
junkit" as that usually ends up just as the name states. While they
will certainly "work" similar to a CNC machine, I believe with a
little more effort, the machine would be out of that "Sanford and
Sons" realm.

Can't wait to see the machine!

Chris

Yah, that's true. In many ways a kit is more attractive to me personally
than a pre-built. Why? Because I _love_ making things. It's why I'm on
this group (among others). If I _had_ to make parts, or if I had to make
parts _right_now_, or if I didn't want to invest any emotional energy,
then I'd buy a pre-built machine. But none of those are true! I want to
bring my grandparents down into my basement and say 'see, I built that .
. .' (they'll never know I cheated and used a kit, right?)

I'm after the visceral pleasure of making a machine come alive with my
own hands. I don't have the time to design this machine myself, so I'd
love to have a kit. I don't want to skip the pleasure and just go right
to a finished product either. So the kit is the way to go for me.

Anyway, if I build a kit and can't get it to work and get totally
frustrated, but have a huge pent up desire to make parts, I'd probably
break down and buy a pre-built. So it's good to know one's options.

*Brian

--
-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of derekhawkins
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:08 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Wooden CNC router

>So spending $900 for a kit

This is real and not a kit;

http://maxnc.com/page12.html

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Schmalz" <brian.s@...>
wrote:

>

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
Yahoo! Groups Links

>Because I _love_ making things.

~

>I'm after the visceral pleasure of making a machine come alive with
>my own hands.

~

>but have a huge pent up desire to make parts

You fit the profile of someone who needs a lathe and a mill or a
lathe/mill combo. $900.00 can get you both.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Schmalz" <brian.s@...>
wrote:

>

Yup. Got the mini lathe and mini mill going on. Love them both. Any day
that I get to use them is guaranteed to be a good day. (just like, as a
software guy, any day that I have to fire up my soldering iron is a good
day)

I know I could convert my mini mill to CNC, and, after I become 'good'
enough at CNC, that's what I'd like to do.

*Brian

--


-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of derekhawkins
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:22 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Wooden CNC router

>Because I _love_ making things.

~

>I'm after the visceral pleasure of making a machine come alive with
>my own hands.

~

>but have a huge pent up desire to make parts

You fit the profile of someone who needs a lathe and a mill or a
lathe/mill combo. $900.00 can get you both.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Schmalz" <brian.s@...>
wrote:

>

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
Yahoo! Groups Links

>I know I could convert my mini mill to CNC, and, after I
>become 'good' enough at CNC, that's what I'd like to do.

Geez, a milling table is the easiest route to CNCed XY axes and you
already have one? It's the basis for my CNC drill;

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/cnc

You can get complete working dovetail slides including screws and nuts
for what just a few linear bearings cost.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Schmalz" <brian.s@...>
wrote:

>

Another option for a cheap CNC machine would be to start with the Micro Mill
for Harbor Freight
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47158
It's on special right now for $259, and with a 10 or 15% coupon.....

If you can keep the cost of the mounts, motors, and drivers to around $250,
that might work

That gets you away from having to align rails, etc, and the mill should be
ok for making the motor mounts, esp if they are out of aluminum.

One downside is the work envelope of the xy table is fairly small.

Randy

--- derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

> You can get complete working dovetail slides including screws and nuts
> for what just a few linear bearings cost.

sure a good thing, but you pay the difference in 'huge' stepper motors...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> >I know I could convert my mini mill to CNC, and, after I
> >become 'good' enough at CNC, that's what I'd like to do.
>
> Geez, a milling table is the easiest route to CNCed XY axes and you
> already have one? It's the basis for my CNC drill;
>
> http://www.pbase.com/eldata/cnc
>
> You can get complete working dovetail slides including screws and nuts
> for what just a few linear bearings cost.

I bought a 9x12 from Enco a few years ago, but have been too flat
busted to do anything about it. Now that I've gone from being
ungainfully self-employed to being gainfully employed, I expect to
have enough money and not enough time. :'/

So I'm considering one of these:

Grizzly Industrial Mill/Drill G8689
$525 plus shipping, compare to the Micromark mill/drill.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/g8689

Harbor Freight Mill/Drill 44991
$469, not quite as good as the Micromark one, but has a Yahoogroup
supporting it.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991

Micromark 7x14 Metal Lathe 82710
$595, free shipping over $150 'til Jan 2nd 2007
http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=82710


Micromark Mill/Drill 82573
$525 a bit better than the $469 mill/drill from Harbor Freight. Free
shipping over $150 'til Jan 2nd 2007
http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=82573

I want/need something more than just a drilling machine. I also want
to be able to do 2 1/2D CNC carving. Prototype cases, small signs, etc.

Steve Greenfield

On Wednesday 20 December 2006 22:12, Steve wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:

-=snip=-

> I bought a 9x12 from Enco a few years ago, but have been too flat
> busted to do anything about it. Now that I've gone from being
> ungainfully self-employed to being gainfully employed, I expect to
> have enough money and not enough time. :'/
>
> So I'm considering one of these:
>
> Grizzly Industrial Mill/Drill G8689
> $525 plus shipping, compare to the Micromark mill/drill.
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/g8689
>
> Harbor Freight Mill/Drill 44991
> $469, not quite as good as the Micromark one, but has a Yahoogroup
> supporting it.
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991
>
> Micromark 7x14 Metal Lathe 82710
> $595, free shipping over $150 'til Jan 2nd 2007
> http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog
>&Type=Product&ID=82710
>
>
> Micromark Mill/Drill 82573
> $525 a bit better than the $469 mill/drill from Harbor Freight. Free
> shipping over $150 'til Jan 2nd 2007
> http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog
>&Type=Product&ID=82573
>
> I want/need something more than just a drilling machine. I also want
> to be able to do 2 1/2D CNC carving. Prototype cases, small signs, etc.
>
> Steve Greenfield

Steve,

You're probably aware of this, but they're the same machine under the hood:

"All the mini mills listed on this page are made in the same factory in China.
Except where they have different features, the parts are interchangeable. In
our experience there is not a noticeable quality difference between the
brands."

The only real difference amongst the models seems to be the collets/spindle
tapers "R8 Taper v.s. #3 Morse Taper" and the threading/hand wheel divisions
(imperial v.s. Metric.)
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Info/minimill_compare.php

You also may want to consider the starter kit they sell (clamping kit, 1-2-3
blocks, etc.)
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1262
and the manual littlemachineshop has written for the machines:
"Mini Mill User's Guide"
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Reference/reference.php

I've got a taig mill myself rather than one of these machines, but I've heard
of people doing good work with them. I've also heard that the build quality
is variable; if you end up with one of the crap ones with sand in the
castings, etc., don't be afraid of sending it back and asking for a working
one.

Regards,
Sebastien Bailard
RepRap.org - self-reproducing 3D printer project

--- Sebastien Bailard <penguin@...> wrote:
snip

> Steve,
>
> You're probably aware of this, but they're the same machine under
> the hood:
>
> "All the mini mills listed on this page are made in the same
> factory in China.
> Except where they have different features, the parts are
> interchangeable. In
> our experience there is not a noticeable quality difference
> between the
> brands."
>
> The only real difference amongst the models seems to be the
> collets/spindle
> tapers "R8 Taper v.s. #3 Morse Taper"

What do you think of R8 vs #3 Morse? Is one better, or easier to find
than the other?

> and the threading/hand
> wheel divisions
> (imperial v.s. Metric.)
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Info/minimill_compare.php

Actually, lower down on that page it says the MicroMark is 0.050 inch
per revolution, vs 1/16th inch per rev of the others, and "Micro-Mark
will have you believe that the other mini mills have metric dials, but
they do not."

That is making me very interested in the Micromark, since the others
are not even 0.060 as marked, but 0.0625 per rev.

> You also may want to consider the starter kit they sell (clamping
> kit, 1-2-3
> blocks, etc.)
>

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1262

> and the manual littlemachineshop has written for the machines:
> "Mini Mill User's Guide"
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Reference/reference.php

Thanks!

> I've got a taig mill myself rather than one of these machines,
> but I've heard
> of people doing good work with them. I've also heard that the
> build quality
> is variable; if you end up with one of the crap ones with sand in
> the
> castings, etc., don't be afraid of sending it back and asking for
> a working
> one.

I got links to the models I mentioned from a site similar to the one
you sent me. They said the same thing.

I'd save a lot on the Harbor Freight because I have one right here a
mile from my house. But the 50 thou per rev of the Micromark is very
attractive.

Steve Greenfield

PS you don't need to send it to me off list, too.

Steve

There's also another option on the 7 x ?? lathes
Get the Cummins version in a 7x12
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,876.htm

and then get the inch leadscrew kit from LMS
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2383

399 for the lathe, plus 50 for the leadscrew kit, plus shipping of course

Cummins has shows all over the country - I think you can subscribe and get a
list of their next sales locations.

Keep in mind, the HF is a 7x10, Cummins/Griz/Homier are 7x12, and the
MicroMark is 7x14

Randy

> I bought a 9x12 from Enco a few years ago, but have been too flat
> busted to do anything about it. Now that I've gone from being
> ungainfully self-employed to being gainfully employed, I expect to
> have enough money and not enough time. :'/
>
> So I'm considering one of these:
>
> Grizzly Industrial Mill/Drill G8689
> $525 plus shipping, compare to the Micromark mill/drill.
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/g8689
>
> Harbor Freight Mill/Drill 44991
> $469, not quite as good as the Micromark one, but has a Yahoogroup
> supporting it.
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=44991
>
> Micromark 7x14 Metal Lathe 82710
> $595, free shipping over $150 'til Jan 2nd 2007
> http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Actio
> n=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=82710
>
>
> Micromark Mill/Drill 82573
> $525 a bit better than the $469 mill/drill from Harbor Freight. Free
> shipping over $150 'til Jan 2nd 2007
> http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Actio

n=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=82573

I want/need something more than just a drilling machine. I also want
to be able to do 2 1/2D CNC carving. Prototype cases, small signs, etc.

Steve Greenfield



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Randy Ledyard" <rll_groups@...>
wrote:

>
> Steve
>
> There's also another option on the 7 x ?? lathes
> Get the Cummins version in a 7x12
> http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,876.htm
>
> and then get the inch leadscrew kit from LMS
>

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2383

>
> 399 for the lathe, plus 50 for the leadscrew kit, plus shipping of

course


Homier also does road shows, and sells the 7x lathe. $299.

http://www.homier.com/

but, check all the options and features and compare between offerings.
you want to make sure you are getting the best deal.

Dave

At last, something I have some knowledge about. R8 is a very popular milling machine taper (at least here in the US). A shop I used to work in had an old (ancient) Bridgeport mill with a morse taper, but most of the Bridgeports and their clones use the R8 now. The R8 is a self-releasing taper (the Morse usually requires a blow to the drawbar to release it).

Personal preference: If you are using it primarily for milling, go with the R8, and if the application is primarily drilling use the morse.

Nels

----- Original Message ----
From: Steve <alienrelics@...>

What do you think of R8 vs #3 Morse? Is one better, or easier to find
than the other?





__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>So I'm considering one of these:

I have the Micromark 7x14 Lathe. Note that their free shipping doesn't
appear to cover the $65.00 "heavy/large" shipping surcharge on things
like mills and lathes. Also, look elsewhere (LittleMachineShop for
example) when it comes to accessories.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

>If you are using it primarily for milling, go with the R8,
>and if the application is primarily drilling use the morse.

I see this many times but wonder how relevant it is to home hobbyist
types as opposed to machine shop types. Even if Joe HH already has a
drill press, chances are it doesn't have cross-slides with T-slots so
the mini-mill naturally becomes the drill press of choice. In other
words he ends up using the mill more for drilling than milling and the
supplied 1/2" R8 shank chuck behaves no differently from the chuck in
his drill press. What am I missing?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DB Express <dbxprss@...> wrote:
>

----- Original Message ----
From: derekhawkins <eldata@...>

>>If you are using it primarily for milling, go with the R8,
>>and if the application is primarily drilling use the morse.

>I see this many times but wonder how relevant it is to home hobbyist

Not at all. I've got my mind on industry. R8 works just fine for drilling too. We use our Bridgeports to do a lot of precision drilling. For home use the R8 is great. Tools and adapters are easy to get from a multitude of suppliers. For drilling, get one of these:
<http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=290-3010&PMPXNO=947126&PARTPG=INLMK32>
Then buy a drill chuck with a standard female jacobs taper to mount on it, and you will have a very nice precision drilling setup.

Nels





__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DB Express <dbxprss@...> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: derekhawkins <eldata@...>
> >>If you are using it primarily for milling, go with the R8,
> >>and if the application is primarily drilling use the morse.
>
> >I see this many times but wonder how relevant it is to home hobbyist
>
> Not at all. I've got my mind on industry. R8 works just fine for

drilling too. We use our Bridgeports to do a lot of precision
drilling. For home use the R8 is great. Tools and adapters are easy
to get from a multitude of suppliers. For drilling, get one of these:

>

<http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=290-3010&PMPXNO=947126&PARTPG=INLMK32>

> Then buy a drill chuck with a standard female jacobs taper to mount

on it, and you will have a very nice precision drilling setup.

>
> Nels

A lot of guys try to support LittleMAchineShop as he caters to the 7x
lathe and the mini-mill. For example

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1676

Make sure you need a 33JT or a whatever for your drill chuck. There
are a few different ones you can get.

Dave

For anyone interested in an excellent writeup on building and a free
set of plans and a Brute-type CNC, take a check out this article form
American Lutherie Magazine:

http://www.liutaiomottola.com/Tools/CNCRouter.htm

Ine other thing, in a recent post I make a disparagig commnet about
Kcam. I've just been to the website and in the last few days the
author is back and has posted a new version and is actively
supporting it.

Myc



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@...>
wrote:

>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DB Express <dbxprss@> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: derekhawkins <eldata@>
> > >>If you are using it primarily for milling, go with the R8,
> > >>and if the application is primarily drilling use the morse.
> >
> > >I see this many times but wonder how relevant it is to home

hobbyist

> >
> > Not at all. I've got my mind on industry. R8 works just fine for
> drilling too. We use our Bridgeports to do a lot of precision
> drilling. For home use the R8 is great. Tools and adapters are

easy

> to get from a multitude of suppliers. For drilling, get one of

these:

> >
> <http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=290-

3010&PMPXNO=947126&PARTPG=INLMK32>

> > Then buy a drill chuck with a standard female jacobs taper to

mount

> on it, and you will have a very nice precision drilling setup.
> >
> > Nels
>
>
> A lot of guys try to support LittleMAchineShop as he caters to the

7x

> lathe and the mini-mill. For example
>
> http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?

ProductID=1676

>
> Make sure you need a 33JT or a whatever for your drill chuck. There
> are a few different ones you can get.
>
> Dave
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152y@...>
wrote:

>
> For anyone interested in an excellent writeup on building and a free
> set of plans and a Brute-type CNC, take a check out this article form
> American Lutherie Magazine:
>
> http://www.liutaiomottola.com/Tools/CNCRouter.htm
>

The one thing that is bad about that is that they are John K's design.
The author did not engineer or design the thing, he just ripped off
John K. Bad form.

On the other hand, the Z axis needs support. it is not hard, John did
not like my suggestion as it would only increase the support by about
4x, but unfortunatly, it would have cost another $10.00 in parts.

Dave

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:20:09 +0100, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>
wrote:

>> For anyone interested in an excellent writeup on building and a free
>> set of plans and a Brute-type CNC, take a check out this article form
>> American Lutherie Magazine:
>>
>> http://www.liutaiomottola.com/Tools/CNCRouter.htm
>>
> The one thing that is bad about that is that they are John K's design.
> The author did not engineer or design the thing, he just ripped off
> John K. Bad form.
> On the other hand, the Z axis needs support. it is not hard, John did
> not like my suggestion as it would only increase the support by about
> 4x, but unfortunatly, it would have cost another $10.00 in parts.
> Dave

I don't see how the author did anything of bad form. He freely admits that
the machine is similar to John Kleinbauer's, but that he has not seen the
plans, even gives a link.
There is nothing wrong building something similar to John's machines by
yourself, and if my memory serves me right John has even encouraged it,
right here on this list, to look at his pictures and build something
similar.

ST

Basically he ripped me off then he made some smart remarks about my
design having never seen it. Read the page! With friends like that who
needs enemies. Since the Brute will cut aluminum it is fine the way it
is. Some people have made some changes. For more power I came out with
the Jester. To date I have built over 30 machines and I provide plans
for 10 models. Most homemades and some plans have my centering blocks
and other ideas.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:20:09 +0100, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>
> wrote:
>
> >> For anyone interested in an excellent writeup on building and a free
> >> set of plans and a Brute-type CNC, take a check out this article form
> >> American Lutherie Magazine:
> >>
> >> http://www.liutaiomottola.com/Tools/CNCRouter.htm
> >>
> > The one thing that is bad about that is that they are John K's design.
> > The author did not engineer or design the thing, he just ripped off
> > John K. Bad form.
> > On the other hand, the Z axis needs support. it is not hard, John did
> > not like my suggestion as it would only increase the support by about
> > 4x, but unfortunatly, it would have cost another $10.00 in parts.
> > Dave
>
>
> I don't see how the author did anything of bad form. He freely

admits that

> the machine is similar to John Kleinbauer's, but that he has not

seen the

> plans, even gives a link.
> There is nothing wrong building something similar to John's machines

by

> yourself, and if my memory serves me right John has even encouraged

it,

> right here on this list, to look at his pictures and build something
> similar.
>
> ST
>

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:04:06 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

> Basically he ripped me off then he made some smart remarks about my
> design having never seen it. Read the page! With friends like that who
> needs enemies. Since the Brute will cut aluminum it is fine the way it
> is. Some people have made some changes. For more power I came out with
> the Jester. To date I have built over 30 machines and I provide plans
> for 10 models. Most homemades and some plans have my centering blocks
> and other ideas.

Well, you must know what business you had with the guy.
All i'm saying is it is perfectly possible to build something that looks a
lot like your machine after having looked at a couple of pictures. I dunno
what happened to rip you off, if he didn't pay for his plans or something.
But i don't think you would have grounds to complain if someone just
builds something that's similar without the plans, nor did you say you
mind that in the past (e.g. Dave Kush or what you said to myself).

ST

When he put the plans online that was no help. His comments and
the fact he introduced problems into the design. Brute has a stubby
1-1/4" Z axis pipe. Dave Kush did things correctly only showing the
machine. He is a member of my group. Dave and I both changed the
Z-axis pipe within days to 1-1/4" pipe. When people give me
suggestions I am usually into another project or I have the update
done and I am testing it. The Brute was a NCF2000 then NCF2001 which
became PCBmill and then Brute. The free plans are a poor copy of the
PCBMill. At one point I had two PCBMills turning out milled Piker
boards. Then with some help from Hans here I got a PC house to make
the Piker boards.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:04:06 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:
>
> > Basically he ripped me off then he made some smart remarks about my
> > design having never seen it. Read the page! With friends like that who
> > needs enemies. Since the Brute will cut aluminum it is fine the way it
> > is. Some people have made some changes. For more power I came out with
> > the Jester. To date I have built over 30 machines and I provide plans
> > for 10 models. Most homemades and some plans have my centering blocks
> > and other ideas.
>
>
> Well, you must know what business you had with the guy.
> All i'm saying is it is perfectly possible to build something that

looks a

> lot like your machine after having looked at a couple of pictures. I

dunno

> what happened to rip you off, if he didn't pay for his plans or

something.

> But i don't think you would have grounds to complain if someone just
> builds something that's similar without the plans, nor did you say you
> mind that in the past (e.g. Dave Kush or what you said to myself).
>
> ST
>

Hi,

I made a try with "edding T25 refill ink permanent
marker" on my Epson R220. I emptied the MISPRO
cartridge and filled it with the ink shown below.

http://www.edding.com/286_343635_DEU_HTML.htm

It is both etch and water resistant permanent ink.

Here below the results:

1-) Printer is terrible cologned. No more usable.
2-) Printed image on the PCB was terrible.
3-) It was just me the stupid victim :-)

We should use MISPRO inks even they also clogs the
printer head.

Best,

Dr.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi Bora,
You should never try to put fast drying ink to your
inkjet printer. It is really so easy to clog the head.
You need to check viscosity, drying time of ink and
particle size before give a try. Another issue is, if
your printer head is not designed for pigment based
inks, pigment based inks can clog the head.
I am using MISPRO inks more than 9 months without any
clogging problem. Their ink also includes ammonia
inside to help the cleaning of head while printing.
Did you modify your printer head height?
Regards,
Volkan

>.... It is both etch and water resistant permanent

ink.

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 22:37:19 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

> When he put the plans online that was no help. His comments and
> the fact he introduced problems into the design. Brute has a stubby
> 1-1/4" Z axis pipe. Dave Kush did things correctly only showing the
> machine. He is a member of my group. Dave and I both changed the
> Z-axis pipe within days to 1-1/4" pipe. When people give me
> suggestions I am usually into another project or I have the update
> done and I am testing it. The Brute was a NCF2000 then NCF2001 which
> became PCBmill and then Brute. The free plans are a poor copy of the
> PCBMill. At one point I had two PCBMills turning out milled Piker
> boards. Then with some help from Hans here I got a PC house to make
> the Piker boards.

But are these _his_ plans, or _your_ plans?
If he has copied them from you, i can understand your dissatisfaction
about the whole thing, but if they are merely plans of a machine he has
built on his own, i don't see the probem?

ST

On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 23:04:15 +0100, Bora Dikmen <bora_dikmen@...>
wrote:

> Hi,
> I made a try with "edding T25 refill ink permanent
> marker" on my Epson R220. I emptied the MISPRO
> cartridge and filled it with the ink shown below.
> http://www.edding.com/286_343635_DEU_HTML.htm
> It is both etch and water resistant permanent ink.
> Here below the results:
> 1-) Printer is terrible cologned. No more usable.
> 2-) Printed image on the PCB was terrible.
> 3-) It was just me the stupid victim :-)
> We should use MISPRO inks even they also clogs the
> printer head.
> Best,
> Dr.

When i tried staedtler red ink i also clogged the printer.

ST

Yes Volkan, I always adjust printer head height
to print onto PCB.

I extracted the printer head and put it into
acetone for 10 minutes. But it still reject to
print! It terrible clogged.

I plan to try D88 later. It has 180 nozzles for
black which was 90 for R220. And it is designed
for Durabrite inks. Perhaps clogs less.

Best,

Dr.



--- Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:

> Hi Bora,
> You should never try to put fast drying ink to your
> inkjet printer. It is really so easy to clog the
> head.
> You need to check viscosity, drying time of ink and
> particle size before give a try. Another issue is,
> if
> your printer head is not designed for pigment based
> inks, pigment based inks can clog the head.
> I am using MISPRO inks more than 9 months without
> any
> clogging problem. Their ink also includes ammonia
> inside to help the cleaning of head while printing.
> Did you modify your printer head height?
> Regards,
> Volkan
>
> >.... It is both etch and water resistant permanent
> ink.
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Stefan,
Lets see him produce plans without the window channel. The
window channel was my epiphany! He mounted the motor and bearing
plates on the channel the same way! The Z axis Gas pipe etc. I guess
if I stole your car and repainted it, that would be ok with you?

John






--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 22:37:19 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:
>
> > When he put the plans online that was no help. His comments and
> > the fact he introduced problems into the design. Brute has a stubby
> > 1-1/4" Z axis pipe. Dave Kush did things correctly only showing the
> > machine. He is a member of my group. Dave and I both changed the
> > Z-axis pipe within days to 1-1/4" pipe. When people give me
> > suggestions I am usually into another project or I have the update
> > done and I am testing it. The Brute was a NCF2000 then NCF2001 which
> > became PCBmill and then Brute. The free plans are a poor copy of the
> > PCBMill. At one point I had two PCBMills turning out milled Piker
> > boards. Then with some help from Hans here I got a PC house to make
> > the Piker boards.
>
>
> But are these _his_ plans, or _your_ plans?
> If he has copied them from you, i can understand your dissatisfaction
> about the whole thing, but if they are merely plans of a machine he

has

> built on his own, i don't see the probem?
>
> ST
>

Hi John,

I know you have been upset about this whole thing for some time now. I
don't know what you expect of other people though. Realistically, your
machine designs use crude, commonly available materials. Just because
you printed on paper the idea of using cheap window channel for a
guideway does not give you sole rights to use that idea. Nor does the
use of extremely crude gas/water pipe for other machine components.
Anyone can use any of those materials in anything they wish to,
including a CNC machine.

If you look back through woodworking magazines for the last 20 years
or so, you will find numerous uses of the cheap aluminum extrusions
for a variety of jigs and fixtures. In many cases, it was used as a
guideway. Assuming those published drawings predate yours, then in
essence you ripped off them of their idea.

Using gas pipe and or water pipe is another "hacked together" framing
material used for innovative purposes long before you used it on your
machine. As it is easy to obtain, it has been used for many other
purposes including as an axel for a turntable type device published in
a woodworking magazine many years back. It is used as a "hidden shelf
hanger" device and I am sure many other unique applications.

I don't know if you expected the world to bow down to you for all
machine designs using similar materials, but if so, you were not being
realistic at all. Sorry to sound so harsh, but you seem to want to
claim rights to things that you have no right to claim. If someone is
photocopying your drawings and reselling them, call the authorities as
you would have something to complain about. But complaining about
people showing similar uses of similar materials is just unrealistic.

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> Stefan,
> Lets see him produce plans without the window channel. The
> window channel was my epiphany! He mounted the motor and bearing
> plates on the channel the same way! The Z axis Gas pipe etc. I guess
> if I stole your car and repainted it, that would be ok with you?
>
> John

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:24:04 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

> Stefan,
> Lets see him produce plans without the window channel. The
> window channel was my epiphany! He mounted the motor and bearing
> plates on the channel the same way! The Z axis Gas pipe etc. I guess
> if I stole your car and repainted it, that would be ok with you?
> John

No, but if you built one just like it i wouldn't mind at all! I'd ask you
why the gas sometimes sticks when starting the engine, when you are done.

I had not looked at your machines before, but the way the slides are made
is the obvious solution, with a plate across the top and two blocks
underneath. The parts i have for my machine (if i ever have time to build
it) use the same arrangement, only i had to use two channels in parallel
because i could not find one wide enough/right shape. But the plastic
sliders are virually identical. I looked through all the aluminum i could
get, and if our DIY stores had those same window channels, i would have
gotten them too, for sure.

I haven't looked at the end mount plates in detail, but it just looks like
a plastic plate with the motor or a bearing on it, and mounted to the
channel. There aren't so many options to do this.

I don't doubt he got the gas pipe z-axis (and other stuff) from you, and
he freely admits he did. I would not use that (because i'd rather use a
gantry style), but i would not hesitate to use pipes in a similar manner
for other things. Just because you sell plans for a machine with gas pipes
like this doesn't mean nobody can build anything like it any more. People
have done it before, and will do so again.

I really don't want to quarrel with you over this, but maybe you should
think about it. If he had bought plans from you (or somehow illegally
gotten hold of them), and then published them, he would violate your
copyright and you would have all grounds to be angry. But to me it looks
like he just looked around at homebuilt machines that are out there, liked
some of what he saw, and built a machin by himself. I don't see bad form
in that, people have copied what others did for millions of years. For a
lark, if you are in a situation where you know someone is looking at you
(say in the tube or a restorant or something), scratch your nose or ear in
an inconspicuous manner. 9 out of 10 times the person looking in your
direction will have the sudden need to scratch his nose or ear too. What i
want to say is it is in human/animal nature to see a good idea, and do the
same. Unless you have patented your way to scratch your nose....

Anyway, as i said, i don't want to quarrel with you. But talking about
"stealing" when someone builds something similar to what others have
built, that's not right. Items intended for the same purpose will always
end up looking similar, even if different peole make them in complete
isolation. If the isolation is less complete they will of course look much
more similar. Look at cars, or toothbrushes, or angle-grinders. Most of
them follow more or less the same general idea.


ST

Chris,
Three people copied the HobbyCNC board. All three went down in
flames when Dave came out with the new board. It made my day! You can
search every magazine in the world. I was the first to use the window
channel. The scraps never made it into the hands of the public. You
remind me of the people who said swaping MP3s were going to help the
record industry. I am in the process of looking for a job. There won't
be any new designs (old ones according to you) coming from me in the
future. I took a bunch of old ideas and made something new out of
them. In six years nobody has done anything as slick.

John




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Hi John,
>
> I know you have been upset about this whole thing for some time now. I
> don't know what you expect of other people though. Realistically, your
> machine designs use crude, commonly available materials. Just because
> you printed on paper the idea of using cheap window channel for a
> guideway does not give you sole rights to use that idea. Nor does the
> use of extremely crude gas/water pipe for other machine components.
> Anyone can use any of those materials in anything they wish to,
> including a CNC machine.
>
> If you look back through woodworking magazines for the last 20 years
> or so, you will find numerous uses of the cheap aluminum extrusions
> for a variety of jigs and fixtures. In many cases, it was used as a
> guideway. Assuming those published drawings predate yours, then in
> essence you ripped off them of their idea.
>
> Using gas pipe and or water pipe is another "hacked together" framing
> material used for innovative purposes long before you used it on your
> machine. As it is easy to obtain, it has been used for many other
> purposes including as an axel for a turntable type device published in
> a woodworking magazine many years back. It is used as a "hidden shelf
> hanger" device and I am sure many other unique applications.
>
> I don't know if you expected the world to bow down to you for all
> machine designs using similar materials, but if so, you were not being
> realistic at all. Sorry to sound so harsh, but you seem to want to
> claim rights to things that you have no right to claim. If someone is
> photocopying your drawings and reselling them, call the authorities as
> you would have something to complain about. But complaining about
> people showing similar uses of similar materials is just unrealistic.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
> > Stefan,
> > Lets see him produce plans without the window channel. The
> > window channel was my epiphany! He mounted the motor and bearing
> > plates on the channel the same way! The Z axis Gas pipe etc. I guess
> > if I stole your car and repainted it, that would be ok with you?
> >
> > John
>

Hi John,

Gee, I suppose the first guy that painted a car red is the only
person with the rights to do so? In your way of thinking, we would
have run out of colors a long time ago! John, get over it. Your
designs are not all that "earth shattering", the materials used are
crude at best, and there is nothing in your designs that is so
innovative that it makes people stand up and say "Gee, that just
brilliant!" Seriously, you actually think you are the first person
to use aluminum extrusions for a guideway? Good thing you don't
work at the patent office!

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> Chris,
> Three people copied the HobbyCNC board. All three went down
in
> flames when Dave came out with the new board. It made my day! You
can
> search every magazine in the world. I was the first to use the
window
> channel. The scraps never made it into the hands of the public. You
> remind me of the people who said swaping MP3s were going to help
the
> record industry. I am in the process of looking for a job. There
won't
> be any new designs (old ones according to you) coming from me in
the
> future. I took a bunch of old ideas and made something new out of
> them. In six years nobody has done anything as slick.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I know you have been upset about this whole thing for some time
now. I
> > don't know what you expect of other people though.
Realistically, your
> > machine designs use crude, commonly available materials. Just
because
> > you printed on paper the idea of using cheap window channel for
a
> > guideway does not give you sole rights to use that idea. Nor
does the
> > use of extremely crude gas/water pipe for other machine
components.
> > Anyone can use any of those materials in anything they wish to,
> > including a CNC machine.
> >
> > If you look back through woodworking magazines for the last 20
years
> > or so, you will find numerous uses of the cheap aluminum
extrusions
> > for a variety of jigs and fixtures. In many cases, it was used
as a
> > guideway. Assuming those published drawings predate yours, then
in
> > essence you ripped off them of their idea.
> >
> > Using gas pipe and or water pipe is another "hacked together"
framing
> > material used for innovative purposes long before you used it on
your
> > machine. As it is easy to obtain, it has been used for many
other
> > purposes including as an axel for a turntable type device
published in
> > a woodworking magazine many years back. It is used as a "hidden
shelf
> > hanger" device and I am sure many other unique applications.
> >
> > I don't know if you expected the world to bow down to you for
all
> > machine designs using similar materials, but if so, you were not
being
> > realistic at all. Sorry to sound so harsh, but you seem to want
to
> > claim rights to things that you have no right to claim. If
someone is
> > photocopying your drawings and reselling them, call the
authorities as
> > you would have something to complain about. But complaining
about
> > people showing similar uses of similar materials is just
unrealistic.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Stefan,
> > > Lets see him produce plans without the window channel.
The
> > > window channel was my epiphany! He mounted the motor and
bearing
> > > plates on the channel the same way! The Z axis Gas pipe etc. I
guess
> > > if I stole your car and repainted it, that would be ok with
you?
> > >
> > > John
> >
>

John, see responses in-line

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> Chris,
> Three people copied the HobbyCNC board. All three went down
in
> flames when Dave came out with the new board. It made my day!

And if you look at Dave's design, it is right off the Allegro data
sheet - so I guess he copied someone too.


You can
> search every magazine in the world. I was the first to use the
window
> channel.

Bravo for you, I am glad you believe you have such a pioneering
spirit for re-application of materials.


The scraps never made it into the hands of the public. You
> remind me of the people who said swaping MP3s were going to help
the
> record industry.

Yeah, that explains why Apple's IPOD is doing so poorly in sales :-)



I am in the process of looking for a job. There won't
> be any new designs (old ones according to you) coming from me in
the
> future.

Apparently there wasn't and still isn't a need for your designs or
plans. Generally when something is cobbled together from very basic
materials, there isn't much in the form of a resulting, marketable
product.

>I took a bunch of old ideas and made something new out of
> them. In six years nobody has done anything as slick.


Wait a minute, "took a bunch of old ideas", but isn't that in
conflict with your statement you were the first. Isn't that also in
conflict with the belief no one else can use and old idea? While
you may think that your designs are really innovative, they are not.
While you are impressed by your own designs, apparently they don't
impress the rest of the world or people would have beat a path to
your door to purchase the plans.

Good luck with the job hunting, never a fun thing!

Chris

Chris,
This guy and others have contacted me and said my designs were
great!

http://www.digirout.com/

While people have waited for products from Ken Brand (Ballendo)
and others I made it happen. Earth Shattering no but to thousands who
have bought my plans and hundreds who have finished them I have made
their day. All my designs are cost driven. The Brute can be built for
under $125 using hand tools. It took years for other machines to show
up. Talk is cheap!

John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Hi John,
>
> Gee, I suppose the first guy that painted a car red is the only
> person with the rights to do so? In your way of thinking, we would
> have run out of colors a long time ago! John, get over it. Your
> designs are not all that "earth shattering", the materials used are
> crude at best, and there is nothing in your designs that is so
> innovative that it makes people stand up and say "Gee, that just
> brilliant!" Seriously, you actually think you are the first person
> to use aluminum extrusions for a guideway? Good thing you don't
> work at the patent office!
>
> Chris
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> > Three people copied the HobbyCNC board. All three went down
> in
> > flames when Dave came out with the new board. It made my day! You
> can
> > search every magazine in the world. I was the first to use the
> window
> > channel. The scraps never made it into the hands of the public. You
> > remind me of the people who said swaping MP3s were going to help
> the
> > record industry. I am in the process of looking for a job. There
> won't
> > be any new designs (old ones according to you) coming from me in
> the
> > future. I took a bunch of old ideas and made something new out of
> > them. In six years nobody has done anything as slick.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> > <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > I know you have been upset about this whole thing for some time
> now. I
> > > don't know what you expect of other people though.
> Realistically, your
> > > machine designs use crude, commonly available materials. Just
> because
> > > you printed on paper the idea of using cheap window channel for
> a
> > > guideway does not give you sole rights to use that idea. Nor
> does the
> > > use of extremely crude gas/water pipe for other machine
> components.
> > > Anyone can use any of those materials in anything they wish to,
> > > including a CNC machine.
> > >
> > > If you look back through woodworking magazines for the last 20
> years
> > > or so, you will find numerous uses of the cheap aluminum
> extrusions
> > > for a variety of jigs and fixtures. In many cases, it was used
> as a
> > > guideway. Assuming those published drawings predate yours, then
> in
> > > essence you ripped off them of their idea.
> > >
> > > Using gas pipe and or water pipe is another "hacked together"
> framing
> > > material used for innovative purposes long before you used it on
> your
> > > machine. As it is easy to obtain, it has been used for many
> other
> > > purposes including as an axel for a turntable type device
> published in
> > > a woodworking magazine many years back. It is used as a "hidden
> shelf
> > > hanger" device and I am sure many other unique applications.
> > >
> > > I don't know if you expected the world to bow down to you for
> all
> > > machine designs using similar materials, but if so, you were not
> being
> > > realistic at all. Sorry to sound so harsh, but you seem to want
> to
> > > claim rights to things that you have no right to claim. If
> someone is
> > > photocopying your drawings and reselling them, call the
> authorities as
> > > you would have something to complain about. But complaining
> about
> > > people showing similar uses of similar materials is just
> unrealistic.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Stefan,
> > > > Lets see him produce plans without the window channel.
> The
> > > > window channel was my epiphany! He mounted the motor and
> bearing
> > > > plates on the channel the same way! The Z axis Gas pipe etc. I
> guess
> > > > if I stole your car and repainted it, that would be ok with
> you?
> > > >
> > > > John
> > >
> >
>

Hi John,

I guess I started a firestorm.

Are your complaints based on the fact you want the acknowlegement
(ego boost) of combining gas pipes and aluminum channels, or are yopu
bemoaning the fact that your "evergreen" project is not going to go
on forever?

Just face it, you are merely selling convenience. Convenience in
time savings by having the details printed on a pieces of paper.
Convenience for a shoulder to cry on after screwing up (your private
club).

Reread your comments about HobbyCNC. Dave did it right, when the
competition came in, he improved his design and made the old ones
obsolete. But again, he is selling hardware not pieces of paper.

Since, you have stated that you will not make any improvements in the
plans, your course of action to sell more plans is to set the price
so that it is more convenient for someone to buy them preprinted
rather than printing the 100+ pages themselves.

Re: your comments about the music industry, no one is making you pay
for singing or humming a song that you like.

Myc





"crankorgan" <john@> wrote:

> >
> > Chris,
> > Three people copied the HobbyCNC board. All three went down
> in
> > flames when Dave came out with the new board. It made my day! You
> can
> > search every magazine in the world. I was the first to use the
> window
> > channel. The scraps never made it into the hands of the public.

You

> > remind me of the people who said swaping MP3s were going to help
> the
> > record industry. I am in the process of looking for a job. There
> won't
> > be any new designs (old ones according to you) coming from me in
> the
> > future. I took a bunch of old ideas and made something new out of
> > them. In six years nobody has done anything as slick.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> > <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > I know you have been upset about this whole thing for some time
> now. I
> > > don't know what you expect of other people though.
> Realistically, your
> > > machine designs use crude, commonly available materials. Just
> because
> > > you printed on paper the idea of using cheap window channel for
> a
> > > guideway does not give you sole rights to use that idea. Nor
> does the
> > > use of extremely crude gas/water pipe for other machine
> components.
> > > Anyone can use any of those materials in anything they wish to,
> > > including a CNC machine.
> > >
> > > If you look back through woodworking magazines for the last 20
> years
> > > or so, you will find numerous uses of the cheap aluminum
> extrusions
> > > for a variety of jigs and fixtures. In many cases, it was used
> as a
> > > guideway. Assuming those published drawings predate yours,

then

> in
> > > essence you ripped off them of their idea.
> > >
> > > Using gas pipe and or water pipe is another "hacked together"
> framing
> > > material used for innovative purposes long before you used it

on

> your
> > > machine. As it is easy to obtain, it has been used for many
> other
> > > purposes including as an axel for a turntable type device
> published in
> > > a woodworking magazine many years back. It is used as

a "hidden

> shelf
> > > hanger" device and I am sure many other unique applications.
> > >
> > > I don't know if you expected the world to bow down to you for
> all
> > > machine designs using similar materials, but if so, you were

not

> being
> > > realistic at all. Sorry to sound so harsh, but you seem to

want

> to
> > > claim rights to things that you have no right to claim. If
> someone is
> > > photocopying your drawings and reselling them, call the
> authorities as
> > > you would have something to complain about. But complaining
> about
> > > people showing similar uses of similar materials is just
> unrealistic.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@>

wrote:

> > > >
> > > > Stefan,
> > > > Lets see him produce plans without the window channel.
> The
> > > > window channel was my epiphany! He mounted the motor and
> bearing
> > > > plates on the channel the same way! The Z axis Gas pipe etc.

I

> guess
> > > > if I stole your car and repainted it, that would be ok with
> you?
> > > >
> > > > John
> > >
> >
>

Yes, there are many very polite people around.

For a while there I thought you and Ballendo were one in the same.
You guys both have the same "flair" for machine names as well as
having "bottom-line, cheapest way to do things" belief systems.

Keep in mind, not everyone out there wants to build the cheapest CNC
router possible. Apparently you are not aware that there are people
that take pride in their machines and tools and prefer to spend a
bit more to get a LOT more machine in the end. Yugo cars were cheap
too, in fact, that was their only selling point - whatever happened
to the Yugos?

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> Chris,
> This guy and others have contacted me and said my designs
were
> great!
>
> http://www.digirout.com/
>
> While people have waited for products from Ken Brand
(Ballendo)
> and others I made it happen. Earth Shattering no but to thousands
who
> have bought my plans and hundreds who have finished them I have
made
> their day. All my designs are cost driven. The Brute can be built
for
> under $125 using hand tools. It took years for other machines to
show
> up. Talk is cheap!

>There won't be any new designs (old ones according to you) coming
>from me in the future.

I'm not knocking your designs since you obviously leveraged the
economy of scale concept whereby items produced in considerable bulk,
intended for "fast" markets, are successfully utilized in another
much "slower" market with commensurate savings. This concept is often
at the heart of DIY and we see the same thing here quite often. No
doubt, it, along with the savings are major attractions with
aesthetics being of little concern especially for beginners. Seasoned
CNCers would probably be more concerned with aesthetics.

My concern is to do with the whole idea of selling plans of this
nature on the internet. I also have a similar concern with mail-in
rebates. While both are welcomed practices there is a veiled ruse
associated with both IMO. Most companies who offer MIRs are aware of
the statistics in that only about 20% of people who qualify for MIRs
go on to claim them. In other words there's a dangling carrot that's
soon forgotten after the purchase. Do you have any idea as to the
percentage of plans sold that are actually used to make a finished
working machine?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>

Myc,
My plans are constantly updated. Both Brute and the 7th Sojourn
have seen various updates. I print out every plans one out a time so
plans are always up to date. Having preprinted plansets for 10
machines is a large chunk of money.

My complaint was the guy produced plans for my design. If he were
so great he would have designed his own machine. Changing the size of
a few parts and screwing up the overall design and producing free
plans does not help anybody. My goal was to bring a cheap and easy to
build machine to the masses. Others have come onboard without ripping
me off! Those who can do! Those who can't criticize those who can! I
was the first to bring a cheap PCBMill/Drill planset to the market.
Six years have come and gone and some guys are still talking!!!

John






--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152y@...>
wrote:

>
> Hi John,
>
> I guess I started a firestorm.
>
> Are your complaints based on the fact you want the acknowlegement
> (ego boost) of combining gas pipes and aluminum channels, or are yopu
> bemoaning the fact that your "evergreen" project is not going to go
> on forever?
>
> Just face it, you are merely selling convenience. Convenience in
> time savings by having the details printed on a pieces of paper.
> Convenience for a shoulder to cry on after screwing up (your private
> club).
>
> Reread your comments about HobbyCNC. Dave did it right, when the
> competition came in, he improved his design and made the old ones
> obsolete. But again, he is selling hardware not pieces of paper.
>
> Since, you have stated that you will not make any improvements in the
> plans, your course of action to sell more plans is to set the price
> so that it is more convenient for someone to buy them preprinted
> rather than printing the 100+ pages themselves.
>
> Re: your comments about the music industry, no one is making you pay
> for singing or humming a song that you like.
>
> Myc
>
>
>
>
>
> "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris,
> > > Three people copied the HobbyCNC board. All three went down
> > in
> > > flames when Dave came out with the new board. It made my day! You
> > can
> > > search every magazine in the world. I was the first to use the
> > window
> > > channel. The scraps never made it into the hands of the public.
> You
> > > remind me of the people who said swaping MP3s were going to help
> > the
> > > record industry. I am in the process of looking for a job. There
> > won't
> > > be any new designs (old ones according to you) coming from me in
> > the
> > > future. I took a bunch of old ideas and made something new out of
> > > them. In six years nobody has done anything as slick.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> > > <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi John,
> > > >
> > > > I know you have been upset about this whole thing for some time
> > now. I
> > > > don't know what you expect of other people though.
> > Realistically, your
> > > > machine designs use crude, commonly available materials. Just
> > because
> > > > you printed on paper the idea of using cheap window channel for
> > a
> > > > guideway does not give you sole rights to use that idea. Nor
> > does the
> > > > use of extremely crude gas/water pipe for other machine
> > components.
> > > > Anyone can use any of those materials in anything they wish to,
> > > > including a CNC machine.
> > > >
> > > > If you look back through woodworking magazines for the last 20
> > years
> > > > or so, you will find numerous uses of the cheap aluminum
> > extrusions
> > > > for a variety of jigs and fixtures. In many cases, it was used
> > as a
> > > > guideway. Assuming those published drawings predate yours,
> then
> > in
> > > > essence you ripped off them of their idea.
> > > >
> > > > Using gas pipe and or water pipe is another "hacked together"
> > framing
> > > > material used for innovative purposes long before you used it
> on
> > your
> > > > machine. As it is easy to obtain, it has been used for many
> > other
> > > > purposes including as an axel for a turntable type device
> > published in
> > > > a woodworking magazine many years back. It is used as
> a "hidden
> > shelf
> > > > hanger" device and I am sure many other unique applications.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if you expected the world to bow down to you for
> > all
> > > > machine designs using similar materials, but if so, you were
> not
> > being
> > > > realistic at all. Sorry to sound so harsh, but you seem to
> want
> > to
> > > > claim rights to things that you have no right to claim. If
> > someone is
> > > > photocopying your drawings and reselling them, call the
> > authorities as
> > > > you would have something to complain about. But complaining
> > about
> > > > people showing similar uses of similar materials is just
> > unrealistic.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Stefan,
> > > > > Lets see him produce plans without the window channel.
> > The
> > > > > window channel was my epiphany! He mounted the motor and
> > bearing
> > > > > plates on the channel the same way! The Z axis Gas pipe etc.
> I
> > guess
> > > > > if I stole your car and repainted it, that would be ok with
> > you?
> > > > >
> > > > > John
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

At one point almost 20% of the people who bought my plans finished
them. The overall CNC thing is less then 1%. Lots of people bail after
a week. That's why I strived to keep things simple. The best design
would require a machine shop and lots of skill. I set certain
paramerters and then went for it.

The big money in CNC is motors and controllers. People get the motors
to spin and then they bail. MOTORSPINNERS.

Thousands signup for Yahoo groups. Some lurk while others post. I was
told by a blackbelt and aircraft pilot instructor that the 1% is a
typical figure. Millions buy threadmills but only a few use them.

Lets look at this group. How many people join and how many
actually make a circuit board?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >There won't be any new designs (old ones according to you) coming
> >from me in the future.
>
> I'm not knocking your designs since you obviously leveraged the
> economy of scale concept whereby items produced in considerable bulk,
> intended for "fast" markets, are successfully utilized in another
> much "slower" market with commensurate savings. This concept is often
> at the heart of DIY and we see the same thing here quite often. No
> doubt, it, along with the savings are major attractions with
> aesthetics being of little concern especially for beginners. Seasoned
> CNCers would probably be more concerned with aesthetics.
>
> My concern is to do with the whole idea of selling plans of this
> nature on the internet. I also have a similar concern with mail-in
> rebates. While both are welcomed practices there is a veiled ruse
> associated with both IMO. Most companies who offer MIRs are aware of
> the statistics in that only about 20% of people who qualify for MIRs
> go on to claim them. In other words there's a dangling carrot that's
> soon forgotten after the purchase. Do you have any idea as to the
> percentage of plans sold that are actually used to make a finished
> working machine?
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
>

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 17:18:28 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

> Changing the size of
> a few parts and screwing up the overall design and producing free
> plans does not help anybody.

Doesn't help anybody or just doesn't help you?
If i were to build a machine, and in need of plans, free ones for download
would help a lot more than ones for sale i couldn't even buy if i wanted
to.

I'm sorry, but i can only see someone who has built a machine similar to
yours, nothing more, nothing less.
I don't think it will do any good to discuss this more though.

ST

Chris,
I unlike Ballendo produce real product. When I came out with the
WoodTurtle he came out with the WoodDuck. He is famous for making up
things to steal other people's thunder. He picked apart the HobbyCNC
design while making a copy of the same idea. I alerted Dave to
Ballendo's real name and address and low and behold he tried to order
the new design. (Funniest day of the year!)

From the beginning I have set out to produce cheap CNC machines.
I have stuck to this goal. Dozens of people producing CNC items have
come and gone. I have a graveyard on my website. I produced a
Mill/Drill for PCB work. For 6 years there was nothing like it. I then
went on to produce other simple solutions.

John




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Yes, there are many very polite people around.
>
> For a while there I thought you and Ballendo were one in the same.
> You guys both have the same "flair" for machine names as well as
> having "bottom-line, cheapest way to do things" belief systems.
>
> Keep in mind, not everyone out there wants to build the cheapest CNC
> router possible. Apparently you are not aware that there are people
> that take pride in their machines and tools and prefer to spend a
> bit more to get a LOT more machine in the end. Yugo cars were cheap
> too, in fact, that was their only selling point - whatever happened
> to the Yugos?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> > This guy and others have contacted me and said my designs
> were
> > great!
> >
> > http://www.digirout.com/
> >
> > While people have waited for products from Ken Brand
> (Ballendo)
> > and others I made it happen. Earth Shattering no but to thousands
> who
> > have bought my plans and hundreds who have finished them I have
> made
> > their day. All my designs are cost driven. The Brute can be built
> for
> > under $125 using hand tools. It took years for other machines to
> show
> > up. Talk is cheap!
>

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 17:29:48 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

> At one point almost 20% of the people who bought my plans finished
> them. The overall CNC thing is less then 1%. Lots of people bail after
> a week. That's why I strived to keep things simple. The best design
> would require a machine shop and lots of skill. I set certain
> paramerters and then went for it.
> The big money in CNC is motors and controllers. People get the motors
> to spin and then they bail. MOTORSPINNERS.
> Thousands signup for Yahoo groups. Some lurk while others post. I was
> told by a blackbelt and aircraft pilot instructor that the 1% is a
> typical figure. Millions buy threadmills but only a few use them.
> Lets look at this group. How many people join and how many
> actually make a circuit board?

Hey, it's not your fault if they bail!
You only sold the plans, not the machine, you can't force them.
Even if they only dreamed about the machine for a while, they probably
still got a good deal for that ;-)

We all know your plans are perfectly sound and designed by yourself and
one example of "good" plans for sale on the web.

But there are many, many black sheep selling bad plans that are either
totally useless, incomplete, or even not their own work, sometimes just
copies from free plans. For this reason i would generally never buy plans.
I guess many people are wary of buying plans because of that.

So just to make that perfectly clear, i have no problem with your business
or the quality of your machines or you personally, it's all great. But i
found it quite strange that you would claim ownership of such basic ideas
to the extent that you would be upset about someone building something
similar. I can see how you wouldn't like his free plans because it
potentially takes business away from you, but just because you don't like
it doesn't make it immoral. Badmouthing the competition however is
generally considered "bad form".

ST

I've had MIS pigmented inks in quite a few Epson printers, and clogs
are not much more often than using dye inks, and a lot less often than
Epson Durabrite pigmented.

You can't use a fast drying marker ink in a print head. Inks for
inkjet printing are specifically formulated to 1. dry more slowly so
as to not clog the heads and 2. not spread much after squirted onto
the paper/media. In desktop printers, they are water based with
alcohol and glycols added.

Many marker and pen inks are based on other solvents and are made to
dry very quickly.

Are you just trying to find alternatives in case MIS changes their ink?

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bora Dikmen <bora_dikmen@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I made a try with "edding T25 refill ink permanent
> marker" on my Epson R220. I emptied the MISPRO
> cartridge and filled it with the ink shown below.
>
> http://www.edding.com/286_343635_DEU_HTML.htm
>
> It is both etch and water resistant permanent ink.
>
> Here below the results:
>
> 1-) Printer is terrible cologned. No more usable.
> 2-) Printed image on the PCB was terrible.
> 3-) It was just me the stupid victim :-)
>
> We should use MISPRO inks even they also clogs the
> printer head.
>

Stefan,
I put 100K of my own saving into this hobby including the 11K I
now have on my credit card. For every dollar I put in I got back 20
cents. Two plansets are doing all the work. The internet is wild west
city. I found a guy a few months ago selling a PDF of my older 7th
Sojour design. I was alerted by someone who expected me to supply
support. There are some really bad plans out there. Some are reprints
from old magazines.

John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 17:29:48 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:
>
> > At one point almost 20% of the people who bought my plans finished
> > them. The overall CNC thing is less then 1%. Lots of people bail after
> > a week. That's why I strived to keep things simple. The best design
> > would require a machine shop and lots of skill. I set certain
> > paramerters and then went for it.
> > The big money in CNC is motors and controllers. People get the motors
> > to spin and then they bail. MOTORSPINNERS.
> > Thousands signup for Yahoo groups. Some lurk while others post. I was
> > told by a blackbelt and aircraft pilot instructor that the 1% is a
> > typical figure. Millions buy threadmills but only a few use them.
> > Lets look at this group. How many people join and how many
> > actually make a circuit board?
>
>
> Hey, it's not your fault if they bail!
> You only sold the plans, not the machine, you can't force them.
> Even if they only dreamed about the machine for a while, they probably
> still got a good deal for that ;-)
>
> We all know your plans are perfectly sound and designed by yourself

and

> one example of "good" plans for sale on the web.
>
> But there are many, many black sheep selling bad plans that are either
> totally useless, incomplete, or even not their own work, sometimes

just

> copies from free plans. For this reason i would generally never buy

plans.

> I guess many people are wary of buying plans because of that.
>
> So just to make that perfectly clear, i have no problem with your

business

> or the quality of your machines or you personally, it's all great.

But i

> found it quite strange that you would claim ownership of such basic

ideas

> to the extent that you would be upset about someone building something
> similar. I can see how you wouldn't like his free plans because it
> potentially takes business away from you, but just because you don't

like

> it doesn't make it immoral. Badmouthing the competition however is
> generally considered "bad form".
>
> ST
>

Badmouthing the CUSTOMERS and calling them "Motor spinners" amongst
other names probably doesn't help sales much either!

With such a low rate of completed machines, it also makes one pause to
question the quality of the plans. Perhaps they are not simple enough
for the remaining 80~90% of the people to actually make the machine.

Chris






--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> similar. I can see how you wouldn't like his free plans because it
> potentially takes business away from you, but just because you don't

like

> it doesn't make it immoral. Badmouthing the competition however is
> generally considered "bad form".
>
> ST
>

Chris,
20% is very high. If there a simpler plans to be made I leave
it up to you. I put in my time. It's your turn. Show us how!

John



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Badmouthing the CUSTOMERS and calling them "Motor spinners" amongst
> other names probably doesn't help sales much either!
>
> With such a low rate of completed machines, it also makes one pause to
> question the quality of the plans. Perhaps they are not simple enough
> for the remaining 80~90% of the people to actually make the machine.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
>
> > similar. I can see how you wouldn't like his free plans because it
> > potentially takes business away from you, but just because you don't
> like
> > it doesn't make it immoral. Badmouthing the competition however is
> > generally considered "bad form".
> >
> > ST
> >
>

Hi John,

I always saw your primary efforts as more of a marketing exersize,
rather than design, sorta like Ron Popiel of Ronco fame or George
Foreman. There is a niche market for CNC info and machines and money
to be made. Many people sell plans, just check ebay. And may people
promise to sell plans / kits.

If you have sold $100K worth of plans (thousands sold), I guess it
was worth the effort to draw them up. For some, the time and effort
is justified just to be published in print or on the web.

Six years is a damn good run for a product, competiton does comes in.
To stay competitve and keep the bucks coming in, changes in design or
marketing must be made. New and Improved!

There are many designs using basic standard components. If a design
is good or bad, is buildible or not, depends on the individual's
choices. Remeber P T Barnum's comment.

Personally, I made my choice, I didn't order your plans when I first
saw them, and no I am not building from the American Lutherie plans.
I think the aluminum window channel is too hard to obtain, expensive
and is obsolete now that he 8020 extrusions are availible. Gee
there's an idea! (Sorry Chris)

I'm waitng to see what Dave M offers and then will decide.

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> At one point almost 20% of the people who bought my plans
finished
> them. The overall CNC thing is less then 1%. Lots of people bail
after
> a week. That's why I strived to keep things simple. The best design
> would require a machine shop and lots of skill. I set certain
> paramerters and then went for it.
>
> The big money in CNC is motors and controllers. People get the
motors
> to spin and then they bail. MOTORSPINNERS.
>
> Thousands signup for Yahoo groups. Some lurk while others post. I
was
> told by a blackbelt and aircraft pilot instructor that the 1% is a
> typical figure. Millions buy threadmills but only a few use them.
>
> Lets look at this group. How many people join and how many
> actually make a circuit board?
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@>
wrote:
> >
> > >There won't be any new designs (old ones according to you)
coming
> > >from me in the future.
> >
> > I'm not knocking your designs since you obviously leveraged the
> > economy of scale concept whereby items produced in considerable
bulk,
> > intended for "fast" markets, are successfully utilized in another
> > much "slower" market with commensurate savings. This concept is
often
> > at the heart of DIY and we see the same thing here quite often.
No
> > doubt, it, along with the savings are major attractions with
> > aesthetics being of little concern especially for beginners.
Seasoned
> > CNCers would probably be more concerned with aesthetics.
> >
> > My concern is to do with the whole idea of selling plans of this
> > nature on the internet. I also have a similar concern with mail-
in
> > rebates. While both are welcomed practices there is a veiled ruse
> > associated with both IMO. Most companies who offer MIRs are aware
of
> > the statistics in that only about 20% of people who qualify for
MIRs
> > go on to claim them. In other words there's a dangling carrot
that's
> > soon forgotten after the purchase. Do you have any idea as to the
> > percentage of plans sold that are actually used to make a
finished
> > working machine?
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> > >
> >
>

On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 18:23:02 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:

> Chris,
> 20% is very high. If there a simpler plans to be made I leave
> it up to you. I put in my time. It's your turn. Show us how!
> John

I agree!
I would be lucky if i finished 20% of the things i make plans for, or buy
components for.

Many projects never get finished, i guess there are a couple of
half-finished boats in american garages ;-)

I wouldn't say that is such a bad thing, i mean it's great to finish
something, but people enjoy themselves along the way too. I very much
enjoy thinking up solutions for various problems, and quite often once i
have found something that would work, maybe even tried a proof of concept,
i will never actually make the thing because it is not that important, or
making it would be too much effort in comparision to what it would do. A
lot of the time things change and i no longer need whatever it was because
i found an alternate solution before i could make it. It's all about
enjoying what you are doing.

ST

Myc,
My first goal was to get an article published in a magazine like
the ones I used to read. After I did that I designed and came out with
a simpe a monkey organ planset. The mags did not want it or others I
did because they were too long. I also had a problem with what they
paid. After I finished the monkey organ I got a call to do a
bridgeport Boss repair. It was then I saw a need for a simple machine
people could learn with. The first one was all PVC. At one point I was
offered aluminum scrap. In the scrap was the aluminum window channel.
This is when the lighbulb went on! I turned the scrap into a machine.
Using the money I made and my saving I developed new machines. In 2006
I put out 15K of my own money while making 7.5K So it is very easy to
see I am doing this only for the adventure. This is why I don't take
any flack from people who have done nothing for this hobby except
criticize me. They had 6 years!

John

ST,
I was pretty good with finishing projects. Then I did some 100 mile
bicycle rides. I learned there is a high when you start a project and
a high when you finish. In between there is a wall. Knowing the wall
is coming helps. During the time of the wall I gather parts for the
next step. Sometimes doing a quick model of the part to check for fit
or operation. At the wall you can see the project working but you lose
the motivation to finish it. In my younger days I was famous for
building radios and clocks without cases. I built the monkey organ so
it is a moving sculpture.

People go great guns the first few days. Then they go into excuse
mode. They become board or tired. I know a guy who spent 80 years
starting projects. It took a dumpster and several people to cleanup
the mess after he died. When he wanted something he came here.

I build circuits on proto strips. I then move to perfboard. In most
cases I do second neater perfboard. At that point I mill a circuit
board while running the perfboard proto-type. My last design was the
Banshee. It is a UniPolar Chopper stepper motor driver. It uses a L297
some transistors with Fet outputs. It took months of hard work.


John







--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 18:23:02 +0100, crankorgan <john@...> wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> > 20% is very high. If there a simpler plans to be made I leave
> > it up to you. I put in my time. It's your turn. Show us how!
> > John
>
>
> I agree!
> I would be lucky if i finished 20% of the things i make plans for,

or buy

> components for.
>
> Many projects never get finished, i guess there are a couple of
> half-finished boats in american garages ;-)
>
> I wouldn't say that is such a bad thing, i mean it's great to finish
> something, but people enjoy themselves along the way too. I very much
> enjoy thinking up solutions for various problems, and quite often

once i

> have found something that would work, maybe even tried a proof of

concept,

> i will never actually make the thing because it is not that

important, or

> making it would be too much effort in comparision to what it would

do. A

> lot of the time things change and i no longer need whatever it was

because

> i found an alternate solution before i could make it. It's all about
> enjoying what you are doing.
>
> ST
>

> Are you just trying to find alternatives in case MIS
> changes their ink?

Yes, and some more.

1-) MISPRO is very hard to find in Turkey, even now.

2-) If it succeeded, there is no need to dry the ink.
It is naturally etch resistant.

3-) It was cheaper, and found everywhere.

Best,

Dr.




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John,

Apparently you have not yet figured out that the market for small CNC
machines, plans, kits, etc. isn't that big. There just isn't enough
demand and the market is too cheap to go after it. Even when given
away for free, the plans for CNC machines just don't generate much
interest.

So as for my turn - not a chance I would try to do it for profit. The
market can't support the players that are in it now, why would I want
to get into a tiny market that is already overburdend with too many
vendors. Like yourself and the many others that have failed in this
market, if their ain't enough fish to eat, even the sharks will starve.

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> Chris,
> 20% is very high. If there a simpler plans to be made I leave
> it up to you. I put in my time. It's your turn. Show us how!
>
> John

Chris,
You seem to have all the answers after the fact! You make
comments about other peoples attemps. Where are yours? Talk is cheap!


John


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> John,
>
> Apparently you have not yet figured out that the market for small CNC
> machines, plans, kits, etc. isn't that big. There just isn't enough
> demand and the market is too cheap to go after it. Even when given
> away for free, the plans for CNC machines just don't generate much
> interest.
>
> So as for my turn - not a chance I would try to do it for profit. The
> market can't support the players that are in it now, why would I want
> to get into a tiny market that is already overburdend with too many
> vendors. Like yourself and the many others that have failed in this
> market, if their ain't enough fish to eat, even the sharks will starve.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> >
> > Chris,
> > 20% is very high. If there a simpler plans to be made I leave
> > it up to you. I put in my time. It's your turn. Show us how!
> >
> > John
>

Where are my what?

Talk certainly is cheap. But in case you have not figured it out
yet from my VERY DIRECT points, I have no desire to go bankrupt
trying to produce a product that doesn't have a market.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>
> Chris,
> You seem to have all the answers after the fact! You make
> comments about other peoples attemps. Where are yours? Talk is
cheap!
>
>
> John
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > Apparently you have not yet figured out that the market for
small CNC
> > machines, plans, kits, etc. isn't that big. There just isn't
enough
> > demand and the market is too cheap to go after it. Even when
given
> > away for free, the plans for CNC machines just don't generate
much
> > interest.
> >
> > So as for my turn - not a chance I would try to do it for
profit. The
> > market can't support the players that are in it now, why would I
want
> > to get into a tiny market that is already overburdend with too
many
> > vendors. Like yourself and the many others that have failed in
this
> > market, if their ain't enough fish to eat, even the sharks will
starve.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chris,
> > > 20% is very high. If there a simpler plans to be made I
leave
> > > it up to you. I put in my time. It's your turn. Show us how!
> > >
> > > John
> >
>

>
> Many marker and pen inks are based on other solvents and are made to
> dry very quickly.
>
> Are you just trying to find alternatives in case MIS changes their ink?

question to those curageous:
did you try mixing SOME fast dry ink with the standard one?, I mean not using
pure marker ink.
BTW, do they mix, at all?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Sorry to sound so harsh, but you seem to want to

> claim rights to things that you have no right to claim. If someone is
> photocopying your drawings and reselling them, call the authorities as
> you would have something to complain about. But complaining about
> people showing similar uses of similar materials is just unrealistic.
>
> Chris
>

Chris,

John has put together a lot of different designs. To say that all
were so unique as to have no part ever done in a similar way before
would be silly.

But, when you look at the one machine John did design and make plans
for, and then you look at the free plans, you have a hard time finding
any difference.

In my book that is not a parallel design.

But, like you said in so many words, there is nothing new under the
Sun. almost every design is just some other design with something
different.

Look at all the machines that are based on a Bridgeport. Look at all
the machines that are router based with a flying gantry. Almost
everythings is based on those designs. I think the Hex-a-pod is about
the most unique thing that has come along.

Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Where are my what?
>
> Talk certainly is cheap. But in case you have not figured it out
> yet from my VERY DIRECT points, I have no desire to go bankrupt
> trying to produce a product that doesn't have a market.
>
>

An interesting comment that was made some 50 plus years ago about sales.

if you want to sell insurance in a town, (before there were signs
everywhere) the best thing you can do is to get a competitor !

There is a LOT of truth in that, and there are a few levels that the
statement touches on.

But, if you look at the low end, there may or may not be a real market
for machines. But, when Toyota, or HF comes out with a line of them
and the annual sales top 100,000 units, there will be some reasons or
excuses why or why not.

Personally, when I started, everyone thought they could make a machine
for $100.00. everything from salvage and lots if engineering at home.

Now, some years have passed, and beginners STILL think they can make a
$100.00 machine.

Those who have been around for awhile, know better. Know how much to
expect to pay for a set of motors. and how well those 'free' driver
circuits work. and, how much WORK is involved with building from plans.

When I was a kid, few of my neighbors had gasoline lawn mowers. now,
there is not one push mower to be found !

Although I agree with your basic point, I will argue that the
difference is only the date. in a few years, many people will have
home machines. Like people who have home computers.

I venture to say that at some point, not sure how far off, you will be
able to order G-Code for your Popular Mechanics project of the month !

Dave

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 19:16:42 +0100, Dave Mucha <dave_mucha@...>
wrote:

>
> Although I agree with your basic point, I will argue that the
> difference is only the date. in a few years, many people will have
> home machines. Like people who have home computers.

if you combine the ongoing fascination with lathes and mills (see market
for cheap miniature machines) with the still growning interest in
everything PC controlled and robotics... well, i'd agree with you!

I would say the percentage of people doing this sort of machining stuff in
their free time is dropping, but the percentage within that group that is
into CNC must surely grow.

Look how many people fool around with microcontrollers that otherwise
barely know to tell a resistor from a diode.

ST

Any good electronics schematics (stepper driver) for free there?
Cristian

http://pminmo.com/ <http://pminmo.com/>



HTH

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Cristian <bip@...> wrote:
>
> Any good electronics schematics (stepper driver) for free there?
> Cristian
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HEY STEFAN! I resemble that remark :-)!!!!!


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> Look how many people fool around with microcontrollers that

otherwise

> barely know to tell a resistor from a diode.
>
> ST
>

Dave,

Correct. John has been complaining on these lists that he has
been "Ripped off" on "His" designs and that his business is failing
and so on. While I commend him for taking the time and risks
associated with producing a commercial product such as his plans, I
do not see his failure as a result of being ripped off.

If there was such a huge market for his plans and/or designs, he
would be as rich as Bill Gates. However, as many people learn in
business, there is only X amount of people willing to pay X amount
of dollars for any given product. If you can't find enough
customers willing to pay the price for the product, then the market
isn't big enough to support the costs.

Just because he is the "First to use window channel" does not
guarantee a person success in a marketplace nor does it grant him
any rights to the variety of machine designs that are out there,
similar, identical, or otherwise. Furthermore, just because he was
the "First to use window channel" does not make his plans the only
option, the best option, or the end-all-cure-all for those that want
a small CNC machine.

Just as there are dozens of people on this group, there are dozens
of ideas of what people want in a small CNC machine. Not all of
them have the: need, desire, or willingness to build a CNC machine
out of hardware store products. Some folks actually want a machine
tool of higher quality, some folks may not want to actually build
it, some fold don't have the ability to assemble the bits and
pieces, etc.

My builds have had varying purposes - the most recent being as a
platform for learning about electronics. The previous one was as a
woodworking router with travels and overall size that would fit a
given work area and shop floor space. Other folks may want a "plug
and play" machine and so on. We are all different, we all have
different needs or perceived needs for a CNC machine.

> Chris,
>
> John has put together a lot of different designs. To say that all
> were so unique as to have no part ever done in a similar way before
> would be silly.
>
> But, when you look at the one machine John did design and make

plans

> for, and then you look at the free plans, you have a hard time

finding

> any difference.
>
> In my book that is not a parallel design.
>
> But, like you said in so many words, there is nothing new under the
> Sun. almost every design is just some other design with something
> different.
>
> Look at all the machines that are based on a Bridgeport. Look at

all

> the machines that are router based with a flying gantry. Almost
> everythings is based on those designs. I think the Hex-a-pod is

about

> the most unique thing that has come along.
>
> Dave
>

I am a writer. I sell plans. It is very hard to make a living
selling a product with so little profit. The support is also the down
side. For $36 some people want me to teach them electronics using Emails.
The CNC market peaked in 2003 During 2003 there were several
active software packages. CNCPro-KCam-TurboCNC-EZCNC(Early Mach) Now
most people only use Mach. As for plans there was HobbyCNC and Me back
then and two free sets that were too hard to build! In 2003 I sold 18K
worth of plans and Piker boards and the support time was killing me.
So I dropped out of the controller side. Since then I have watched at
least 20 people bail. Most of the early big mouths never finished
their machines. Several dumped their machines on Ebay. They would talk
big but produce a flimsy machine using very expensive parts. Slowly
the little machine overtook the hobby. Website that allowed pictures
separated the nuts from the sane! During 2003 I had customers who had
workshops and tools. Now that is all gone! The biggest problem is
people who think they can solder. I had people send me their boards
for awhile. A real eye openier!!! Just like American Idol.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Dave,
>
> Correct. John has been complaining on these lists that he has
> been "Ripped off" on "His" designs and that his business is failing
> and so on. While I commend him for taking the time and risks
> associated with producing a commercial product such as his plans, I
> do not see his failure as a result of being ripped off.
>
> If there was such a huge market for his plans and/or designs, he
> would be as rich as Bill Gates. However, as many people learn in
> business, there is only X amount of people willing to pay X amount
> of dollars for any given product. If you can't find enough
> customers willing to pay the price for the product, then the market
> isn't big enough to support the costs.
>
> Just because he is the "First to use window channel" does not
> guarantee a person success in a marketplace nor does it grant him
> any rights to the variety of machine designs that are out there,
> similar, identical, or otherwise. Furthermore, just because he was
> the "First to use window channel" does not make his plans the only
> option, the best option, or the end-all-cure-all for those that want
> a small CNC machine.
>
> Just as there are dozens of people on this group, there are dozens
> of ideas of what people want in a small CNC machine. Not all of
> them have the: need, desire, or willingness to build a CNC machine
> out of hardware store products. Some folks actually want a machine
> tool of higher quality, some folks may not want to actually build
> it, some fold don't have the ability to assemble the bits and
> pieces, etc.
>
> My builds have had varying purposes - the most recent being as a
> platform for learning about electronics. The previous one was as a
> woodworking router with travels and overall size that would fit a
> given work area and shop floor space. Other folks may want a "plug
> and play" machine and so on. We are all different, we all have
> different needs or perceived needs for a CNC machine.
>
>
>
>
> > Chris,
> >
> > John has put together a lot of different designs. To say that all
> > were so unique as to have no part ever done in a similar way before
> > would be silly.
> >
> > But, when you look at the one machine John did design and make
> plans
> > for, and then you look at the free plans, you have a hard time
> finding
> > any difference.
> >
> > In my book that is not a parallel design.
> >
> > But, like you said in so many words, there is nothing new under the
> > Sun. almost every design is just some other design with something
> > different.
> >
> > Look at all the machines that are based on a Bridgeport. Look at
> all
> > the machines that are router based with a flying gantry. Almost
> > everythings is based on those designs. I think the Hex-a-pod is
> about
> > the most unique thing that has come along.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>

>It is very hard to make a living selling a product with so little
>profit.

One of the problems is that technically oriented people tend to be the
least business oriented. Often, we're too "smart" for our own good.
Maybe we should stick a crayon up our noses like Homer Simpson so that
more mundane pursuits like selling real estate appears enticing.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "crankorgan" <john@...> wrote:
>

At 13:33 26.12.2006, you wrote:

><http://pminmo.com/>http://pminmo.com/ <http://pminmo.com/>
>
>HTH
>
>--- In
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com,
>Cristian <bip@...> wrote:
> >
> > Any good electronics schematics (stepper driver) for free there?
> > Cristian
> >

Free but expensive chips.
Cristian

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Cristian <bip@...> wrote:

> ><http://pminmo.com/>http://pminmo.com/ <http://pminmo.com/>
> >
> Free but expensive chips.

not at all, less than $200 for all components (less motors) plus your time to
assemble 4 (four) drivers... X-Y-Z-A. you can spare some 40 (?) if you etch the
boards yourself!
limits: 30V and 2.5 A, 8x microsteps.

__________________________________________________
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Yea I know some (most?) would like this thread to just die and GO
AWAY but I'm going to throw in my 2 cents.

(note: Prepare for a LONG editorial rant )

As far as the way I see the DIY entry level CNC business
and the concept of doing things ourselves going we have gotten to the
point that we can generally AFFORD to have someone else do it for us,
so we do that, or BUY something off the shelf that comes rather close
to what we want. Also considering the number of hours people are
working, spending time with the kids at T Ball, Little League,
Soccer, etc. getting second or third degrees (not to mention time on
the Internet) people don't have the time to learn such things as CNC
related topics.

If you have a product that is waning in popularity for whatever
reason, why not step back and look at things on a broader scale.

You need to DIVERSIFY your product offering.

So many years ago large (enormous) cars ruled the road. Then in 1973,
The Oil Crisis hit and the smaller imports started poring into the
U.S. The quality of those cars for the most part was garbage, but the
people bought them for the fuel economy. The American auto
manufactures were loosing ground fast, so they started building small
cars. After a number of years, people adjusted to the fact that they
would never again see gasoline at $0.53 a gallon (that's what I
remember paying). People got tired of the cramped econo-boxes they
were driving and started buying trucks. These days, car sales have
slumped and `truck' ( PickUps, SUVs, Sport-Utes, MiniVans) sales have
gone up considerably. Twenty or thirty years ago, who would have
thought that General Motors would market a PickUp Truck under the
Cadillac brand? Would you have guessed Mercedes Benz and B.M.W. would
be selling Sport Utility Vehicles?
Thirty years ago the basic concept of these vehicles existed, at that
time they were commonly known as `Work Truck' or `Crew Truck" and
were generally relegated to blue color work crews or farms. The IDEA
or Concept is nothing new! Now these things are EVERYWHERE and some
could run over $100 K (original Hummer)

The point is the Automakers constantly DIVERSIFY their product
offerings.

Instead of complaining that your market share has diminished, pull
the spindle head off and replace it with some sort of material
depositing head. Use a low temperature thermal plastic (Friendly
Plastic from American Art and Clay Co.)in a small heated chamber,
add a small nozzle and a stepper driven plunger.
Another option is to use a two part casting resin in a dual tube
reservoir with a static mixing tube for a nozzle (Alumilite comes to
mind but it sets up awful fast).
Even CA glue in a syringe and baking soda for a catalyst has been
known to be used.

NOW go out and market your NEWLY REDESIGNED product to mechanical
engineering colleges, third world developing countries and others as
a
3D / STL Printer.

Is this concept new or original? . . .
NO

Do I get to lay claim to you stealing my IDEA?
Not Just NO, But H*%% NO!

Hi,

As you know I faliled with permanent marker ink
on my Epson R220. Before that, I used;

prefilled yellow spongeless cartridge MP-T0484-SLC
for R220.

http://www.inksupply.com/spongless_carts.cfm

It is pigment based ink and clogs in 2 days.

Volkan had a big success with a printer that
normally uses Epson Durabrite pigmented ink.
R220 does not!

Should I use another printer which normally uses Epson
Durabrite ink and chose a MISPRO ink which is dye
based?

Happy new year,

Bora

> I've had MIS pigmented inks in quite a few Epson
> printers, and clogs
> are not much more often than using dye inks, and a
> lot less often than
> Epson Durabrite pigmented.
>

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi Bora,
Dye based inks are not etch resistant, you need to use
pigment based inks. MISPRO pigment based inks are etch
resistant. You need to be sure that at parking
position/state the ink jet head is covered by sealing
rubber of the ink pad. If there is an air gap between
head and sealing rubber it can cause ink drying
problem.
Happy new year.
Cheers
Volkan
--- Bora Dikmen <bora_dikmen@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> As you know I faliled with permanent marker ink
> on my Epson R220. Before that, I used;
>
> prefilled yellow spongeless cartridge MP-T0484-SLC
> for R220.
>
> http://www.inksupply.com/spongless_carts.cfm
>
> It is pigment based ink and clogs in 2 days.
>
> Volkan had a big success with a printer that
> normally uses Epson Durabrite pigmented ink.
> R220 does not!
>
> Should I use another printer which normally uses
> Epson
> Durabrite ink and chose a MISPRO ink which is dye
> based?
>
> Happy new year,
>
> Bora
>
>
>
>
>
> > I've had MIS pigmented inks in quite a few Epson
> > printers, and clogs
> > are not much more often than using dye inks, and a
> > lot less often than
> > Epson Durabrite pigmented.
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>