Homebrew PCBs

Hi Everybody,
As a long silent member and toner transfer lover, now I have something
to share. I have tried direct inkjet printing with my EPSON CX4200. It
is amazing (at least for me) but it seems it is possible to print on
copper without any special ink. Inks that I have used were  refill
inks  which are not from EPSON (this is good point). May be similar
results can be obtained from Epson DuraBrite inks.
Let me summarize what I did,
-I have used very thin PCB, 100um overall thickness (it is not
possible to insert 1.6mm to the printer)
-Using 'Scotch-Brite' and 'Ajax with Bleach' I cleaned the board. 
-Using Tarn-X I removed oxide once more.
-I got printout on paper and then using scotch tape I fixed the PCB on
paper and reprinted the file
-I handled the PCB carefully to a flat surface since ink was still
wet. After waiting 5  minutes I dried it completely by holding it
around 1"  (2.5cm) above  the electrical stove and started to dry it 
from reverse side firstly. 
-I etched the board using Ferric Chloride  solution.
I copied the scanned image of etched pcb and photos under
Photos/Volkan's folder

Volkan

Which ink did you use? (brand etc.)

So this did work then, there are no faults in the PCB?

Do you have any means to make closeup photos?

I'm not sure what to think, or say, yesterday i would have said it is  
impossible with the normal ink, but it seems you did it...
If this is really happening that would be great, but then, i'm probably  
asleep and dreaming so.... ;-)



ST

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 09:40:43 +0200, Volkan <vsahin@...> wrote:

> Hi Everybody,
>
> As a long silent member and toner transfer lover, now I have something
>
> to share. I have tried direct inkjet printing with my EPSON CX4200. It
>
> is amazing (at least for me) but it seems it is possible to print on
>
> copper without any special ink. Inks that I have used were  refill
>
> inks  which are not from EPSON (this is good point). May be similar
>
> results can be obtained from Epson DuraBrite inks.
>
> Let me summarize what I did,
>
> -I have used very thin PCB, 100um overall thickness (it is not
>
> possible to insert 1.6mm to the printer)
>
> -Using 'Scotch-Brite' and 'Ajax with Bleach' I cleaned the board.
>
> -Using Tarn-X I removed oxide once more.
>
> -I got printout on paper and then using scotch tape I fixed the PCB on
>
> paper and reprinted the file
>
> -I handled the PCB carefully to a flat surface since ink was still
>
> wet. After waiting 5  minutes I dried it completely by holding it
>
> around 1"  (2.5cm) above  the electrical stove and started to dry it
>
> from reverse side firstly.
>
> -I etched the board using Ferric Chloride  solution.
>
> I copied the scanned image of etched pcb and photos under
>
> Photos/Volkan's folder
>
>
> Volkan

>If this is really happening that would be great

I may even become a convert provided two sided boards can be 
efficiently printed with less than .004" misalignment.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Epson inkjet results


> Which ink did you use? (brand etc.)
> 
> So this did work then, there are no faults in the PCB?
> 
> Do you have any means to make closeup photos?
> 
> I'm not sure what to think, or say, yesterday i would have said it is  
> impossible with the normal ink, but it seems you did it...
> If this is really happening that would be great, but then, i'm probably  
> asleep and dreaming so.... ;-)
> 

I'm astounded, as well. I would have bet money on it not working!

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Nope, your not dreaming!  But if you are, I am in it too!

This is very interesting indeed.  I have to find me a printer that I 
can do some tinkering and experimenting with. 



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Which ink did you use? (brand etc.)
> 
> So this did work then, there are no faults in the PCB?
> 
> Do you have any means to make closeup photos?
> 
> I'm not sure what to think, or say, yesterday i would have said it 
is  
> impossible with the normal ink, but it seems you did it...
> If this is really happening that would be great, but then, i'm 
probably  
> asleep and dreaming so.... ;-)

> I'm astounded, as well. I would have bet money on it not working!


Me too!  Having a bit of experience with CD printers and knowing how 
important the media is (coated discs etc.) I would have thought this 
to be a tough problem to overcome.  But, I am still confident the 
seceret is in the ink he used. 

Now, if we can get that information AND find a cheap ink jet printer 
we could all get and work with, this could really turn into 
something big.  

Not being a big fan of thin PCBs, I would favor a printer that could 
be modified to accept thicker boards - but that's just mechanicals, 
I think that could be overcome.

THis is exciting news indeed!

Chris

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:54:09 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

> I may even become a convert provided two sided boards can be
>
> efficiently printed with less than .004" misalignment.
>
>


should not be that tricky, the front of page is detected via a optical  
sensor, usually, and the repeatability side-to-side is usually very good  
with inkjets, as long as you can feed the pcb at the right place, which  
should not be hard with a flatbed conversion.

But i'm still too stumped that it worked at all to think about two sided  
stuff...

ST

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:15:50 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
>
> Now, if we can get that information AND find a cheap ink jet printer
>
> we could all get and work with, this could really turn into
>
> something big.


I have put the epson in the attic with which i tried the staedtler ink.
I tried it on the color head expecting a failure, so the black one should  
not be clogged and should still work.
That is, if no mice have eaten it...

Inkjet printers are really dirt cheap at ebay, so that is not an issue, as  
long as i can get more information about the ink, ideally a second  
confirmation that it works, i'm sure to have a go....


ST

Well if you would feed the mice a proper diet, you wouldn't have to 
worry about them eating that printer now would you!  ;-)

I would even run out today and buy a new printer if I knew for sure 
this would work.  But, it is going to depend on that ink he used.  I 
dont' see a problem with the concept, only the ink.  

I think I will run over to the office supply place later today to 
see what they have on hand and if any of them seem suited to easy 
mods for printing on PCBs.



 
> I have put the epson in the attic with which i tried the staedtler 
ink.
> I tried it on the color head expecting a failure, so the black one 
should  
> not be clogged and should still work.
> That is, if no mice have eaten it...
> 
> Inkjet printers are really dirt cheap at ebay, so that is not an 
issue, as  
> long as i can get more information about the ink, ideally a 
second  

> confirmation that it works, i'm sure to have a go....
> 
> 
> ST
>

Another consideration in this is the board preperation.  If I get a 
printer and find out what ink he used, I will certainly start with 
using the exact process he described.

However, this may also apply and help with ink adhesion.  When I was 
having trouble with toner transfer on one particular brand of PCB 
materail, I pre-etched it in ferric chloride.  This allowed the toner 
to bond perfectly.  No matter how much polishing I did with steel 
wools, scotch brights, 1000 grit sandpapers, and cleaning with 
acetones would help - only a pre-etch worked.

What I remember from that experience is that the material came out of 
the ferric chloride with a nice dull finish - perhaps good enough for 
the ink to adhere and dry properly.  Certainly worth a test.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing" 
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
<snip>  
> 
> Not being a big fan of thin PCBs, I would favor a printer that 
could 
> be modified to accept thicker boards - but that's just 
mechanicals, 
> I think that could be overcome.
> 

I've never been a fan of thin PCBs at all, but this is ridiculously 
thin. By my figures, at a 100um thickness (including copper!), it's 
literally a 'paper-thin' PCB. 

I'm afraid that's way too fragile for me to use. If the mechanicals 
of the printer could be modified to accept 0.031" material, I'd 
certainly consider it, though.


Regards, Bob

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:49:42 +0200, Bob_xyz <bob_barr@...> wrote:

>
>
> I've never been a fan of thin PCBs at all, but this is ridiculously
>
> thin. By my figures, at a 100um thickness (including copper!), it's
>
> literally a 'paper-thin' PCB.
>
>
> I'm afraid that's way too fragile for me to use. If the mechanicals
>
> of the printer could be modified to accept 0.031" material, I'd
>
> certainly consider it, though.
>
>
>
> Regards, Bob


Forget the PCB thickness for goodness sake! Hacking a printer up for  
straight path is dead easy, i have done two only to find the printing is  
the problem. I don't care about PCB thickness, i only wanna know which ink  
was used....

ST

Bob_xyz wrote:

>I've never been a fan of thin PCBs at all, but this is ridiculously 
>thin. By my figures, at a 100um thickness (including copper!), it's 
>literally a 'paper-thin' PCB. 
>
This is probably a dumb suggestion, but if the process works then would 
it not be possible to glue two etched "boards" to a piece of bare 
substrate? This would result in a normal-thickness, double-sided board. 
Maybe it would even be possible to build up more than two layers.

Although as Stefan says, thickness oughtn't to be a problem if the 
printer can be suitably modified.

I'm really, really interested in this process -- it's amazing how after 
all the experimentation and frustration, someone quietly pops up and 
announces that they've had a positive result!


Stuart

>If the mechanicals
>of the printer could be modified to accept 0.031" material

There are several Epson 2200s up for bid on Ebay, some as low as 
$51.00. That handles 1.3mm (.051") thickness out of the box.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob_xyz" <bob_barr@...> wrote:
>

>i only wanna know which ink
>was used....

It used to be "this paper", "that paper" now it's going to be "this 
ink", "that ink" and a whole new field of ink chemistry is about to 
blossom forth.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Volkan" <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Everybody,
> As a long silent member and toner transfer lover, now I have 
>something
> to share. I have tried direct inkjet printing with my EPSON CX4200. 
>It
> is amazing (at least for me) but it seems it is possible to print on
> copper without any special ink. Inks that I have used were  refill
> inks  which are not from EPSON (this is good point). May be similar
> results can be obtained from Epson DuraBrite inks.
> Let me summarize what I did,
> -I have used very thin PCB, 100um overall thickness (it is not
> possible to insert 1.6mm to the printer)
> -Using 'Scotch-Brite' and 'Ajax with Bleach' I cleaned the board. 
> -Using Tarn-X I removed oxide once more.
> -I got printout on paper and then using scotch tape I fixed the PCB 
>on
> paper and reprinted the file
> -I handled the PCB carefully to a flat surface since ink was still
> wet. After waiting 5  minutes I dried it completely by holding it
> around 1"  (2.5cm) above  the electrical stove and started to dry it 
> from reverse side firstly. 
> -I etched the board using Ferric Chloride  solution.
> I copied the scanned image of etched pcb and photos under
> Photos/Volkan's folder
> 
> Volkan


This confirms exactly what I suggested before, that the Durabrite inks 
(which are more like acrylic enamel with glue added than the usual 
watery dye and pigment inks every other printer on the market use) 
would indeed be able to print on a nonporous surface like metal. The 
next step, of course, would be for someone to use these inks in a 
R200/300 printer with the CD printing tray, which would allow you to 
print with a straight through path. Or to modify a C-series printer in 
order to create a straight-through path.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Volkan" <vsahin@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Everybody,
> > As a long silent member and toner transfer lover, now I have 
> >something
> > to share. I have tried direct inkjet printing with my EPSON CX4200. 
> >It
> > is amazing (at least for me) but it seems it is possible to print on
> > copper without any special ink. Inks that I have used were  refill
> > inks  which are not from EPSON (this is good point). ...


> 
> This confirms exactly what I suggested before, that the Durabrite inks 
> (which are more like acrylic enamel with glue added than the usual 
> watery dye and pigment inks every other printer on the market use) 
> would indeed be able to print on a nonporous surface like metal.

Re-read above: "Inks I have used were refill inks which are not from
EPSON..."

> The 
> next step, of course, would be for someone to use these inks in a 
> R200/300 printer with the CD printing tray, which would allow you to 
> print with a straight through path. Or to modify a C-series printer in 
> order to create a straight-through path.

There are replacement trays available from Epson or from eBay, so
someone could have more than one go at modifying the CD tray without
having to buy another printer.

I see brand new R200 series still in box on Craigslist from people who
got them free with a digital camera or computer. $50 to $75. I'd trust
that before I would a used printer from some anonymous person on eBay.

That's how I got an R200 for $50.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:49:42 +0200, Bob_xyz <bob_barr@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > I've never been a fan of thin PCBs at all, but this is 
>ridiculously
> >
> > thin. By my figures, at a 100um thickness (including copper!), 
>it's
> >
> > literally a 'paper-thin' PCB.
> >
> >
> > I'm afraid that's way too fragile for me to use. If the 
>mechanicals
> >
> > of the printer could be modified to accept 0.031" material, I'd
> >
> > certainly consider it, though.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards, Bob
> 
> 
> Forget the PCB thickness for goodness sake! Hacking a printer up for 
 
> straight path is dead easy, i have done two only to find the 
>printing is  
> the problem. I don't care about PCB thickness, i only wanna know 
>which ink  
> was used....
> 
> ST
>

The CX4800 takes Epson Durabrite /Ultra/ Ink, which is even stickier 
and faster drying than the original series of Durabrite inks. I don't 
remember the specific numbers (Epsons have really insane numbering 
schemes, something like T0x00xx), but it's the one with the 
fanback Chair design on the front of the box.

As I said before, most Epsons take the exact same /shape/ of 
cartridge, the only differences are the chips which let the printer 
know which # and the volume left inside. I don't know how well the 
R-series printer would modify to allow thicker boards through. The 
tray will take CDs, but it often rejects printing if not aligned 
perfectly, it has special ultraviolet sensitive white patches on the 
tray so that the printer can 'see' where the CD will be. Even the 
slightest misalignment will cause it to reject the printing and you 
have to re-load the tray over and over again. If you are going to 
modify one of these, I would be careful to make sure that the 
printhead won't ram into whatever you're trying to put into it. I am 
not sure if the 'standard' size Epson cartridge also works for the 
2200, that one's an older model, I believe.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Volkan" <vsahin@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Everybody,
> > As a long silent member and toner transfer lover, now I have 
> >something
> > to share. I have tried direct inkjet printing with my EPSON CX4200. 
> >It
> > is amazing (at least for me) but it seems it is possible to print on
> > copper without any special ink. Inks that I have used were  refill
> > inks  which are not from EPSON (this is good point). May be similar
> > results can be obtained from Epson DuraBrite inks.
> > Let me summarize what I did,
> > -I have used very thin PCB, 100um overall thickness (it is not
> > possible to insert 1.6mm to the printer)
> > -Using 'Scotch-Brite' and 'Ajax with Bleach' I cleaned the board. 
> > -Using Tarn-X I removed oxide once more.
> > -I got printout on paper and then using scotch tape I fixed the PCB 
> >on
> > paper and reprinted the file
> > -I handled the PCB carefully to a flat surface since ink was still
> > wet. After waiting 5  minutes I dried it completely by holding it
> > around 1"  (2.5cm) above  the electrical stove and started to dry it 
> > from reverse side firstly. 
> > -I etched the board using Ferric Chloride  solution.
> > I copied the scanned image of etched pcb and photos under
> > Photos/Volkan's folder
> > 
> > Volkan

A further modification beyond thickness would be removing the "pizza"
wheels. There is a row of thin toothed wheels, they may poke holes in
the ink.

The best mod to them, since they eject the paper right at the end,
would probably be to remove (or raise) all but the wheels along the
edge of the paper path.

I'm anxiously waiting to find out what kind of ink. It may simply be
that his preparation is what did it, rather than the ink, but until we
know what kind it was....

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
> <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:49:42 +0200, Bob_xyz <bob_barr@> wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > > I've never been a fan of thin PCBs at all, but this is 
> >ridiculously
> > >
> > > thin. By my figures, at a 100um thickness (including copper!), 
> >it's
> > >
> > > literally a 'paper-thin' PCB.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm afraid that's way too fragile for me to use. If the 
> >mechanicals
> > >
> > > of the printer could be modified to accept 0.031" material, I'd
> > >
> > > certainly consider it, though.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards, Bob
> > 
> > 
> > Forget the PCB thickness for goodness sake! Hacking a printer up for 
>  
> > straight path is dead easy, i have done two only to find the 
> >printing is  
> > the problem. I don't care about PCB thickness, i only wanna know 
> >which ink  
> > was used....
> > 
> > ST
> >
> 
> The CX4800 takes Epson Durabrite /Ultra/ Ink, which is even stickier 
> and faster drying than the original series of Durabrite inks. I don't 
> remember the specific numbers (Epsons have really insane numbering 
> schemes, something like T0x00xx), but it's the one with the 
> fanback Chair design on the front of the box.
> 
> As I said before, most Epsons take the exact same /shape/ of 
> cartridge, the only differences are the chips which let the printer 
> know which # and the volume left inside.

It would be more correct to say that -series- of Epsons tend to take
the same size cartridge with different chips. The C8x all seem to take
the same design of cartridge, but it's different than the R2x0 and
R3x0, which is different than the 2x00 series, etc.

You can buy 3rd party chips for those printers so it would be possible
to just swap the chips. Either chips that require a resetter (only
$1.50 each for the chips, but about $30 for the chip resetter) or
"always full" chips that autoreset, cost $15 each.

> I don't know how well the 
> R-series printer would modify to allow thicker boards through. The 
> tray will take CDs, but it often rejects printing if not aligned 
> perfectly, it has special ultraviolet sensitive white patches on the 
> tray so that the printer can 'see' where the CD will be. Even the 
> slightest misalignment will cause it to reject the printing and you 
> have to re-load the tray over and over again. If you are going to 
> modify one of these, I would be careful to make sure that the 
> printhead won't ram into whatever you're trying to put into it. I am 
> not sure if the 'standard' size Epson cartridge also works for the 
> 2200, that one's an older model, I believe.

The older models of Epsons are willy-nilly when it comes to
cartridges. Black cartridges may work in several different models, but
color cartridges were less universal. The 800, 850, and 1520 all used
the same black and color carts, the same black from that set also
worked in several other models, the 1270 and 1280 use their own
cartridges, the 1200 used another set (black in common with other
printers), the black and yellow tanks for the 3000 also work in the
5000, etc.

Some of the older Epsons are much easier to mod for thick PCBs.
Problem with the C8x and C2x0/3x0 models is that they don't have a
straight rear feed path available. Some of the older Epsons such as
the 1520 have a rear feed that should take less work to modify.

I'd be happier if the Canon inks worked for this. I have a stack of
BJC 6000 that have rear feed path, and as-is can feed a CD without
hitting the head.

Steve Greenfield

> Re-read above: "Inks I have used were refill inks which are not from
> EPSON..."

Ah, I missed that, though most aftermarket refill kits made by /good/ 
companies are usually very close, chemically, to the original inks. I 
would be surprised if it was ink from a 'universal' refill kit though.
 
> > The 
> > next step, of course, would be for someone to use these inks in a 
> > R200/300 printer with the CD printing tray, which would allow you 
> > to 
> > print with a straight through path. Or to modify a C-series 
> > printer in 
> > order to create a straight-through path.
> 
> There are replacement trays available from Epson or from eBay, so
> someone could have more than one go at modifying the CD tray without
> having to buy another printer.
> 
> I see brand new R200 series still in box on Craigslist from people 
>who
> got them free with a digital camera or computer. $50 to $75. I'd 
>trust
> that before I would a used printer from some anonymous person on 
>eBay.
> 
> That's how I got an R200 for $50.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

Refurbished ones go for about $70 direct from Epson, though I'm not 
sure how much shipping costs, if you can't find one locally. Also, you 
should check local office supply stores, since many of them are 
clearancing the R200/R320 to make way for the R220 and R340

Many Canon printers on the market also have CD printing functions 
that are locked out due to licensing (can't advertise or allow the 
function in the USA, only Japan/Europe). They're pretty easy to 
unlock and use, though. I'm not entirely sure, but I think they might 
also have a straight paper path available. I'll have to do more 
research into that.

Hi again,
The ink that I have used is from MIS Associates Inc,
Part No: MP-2-MK
Ink color: Universal Black
www.inksupply.com
I think critical part is drying of the ink indeed I cooked it very
well.  Another issue is, never try to use base based etcher it should
be acidic. 
I will do some more experiment this weekend and I will post results.

Volkan

>As I said before, most Epsons take the exact same /shape/ of
>cartridge, the only differences are the chips which let the printer
>know which # and the volume left inside.

If that's all the chip does then it should simply be a matter of 
getting the right ink in a bottle (or pouring it out of a cartridge), 
the right empty cartridge, the right chip zapper (I see them going for 
$10.00 these days) and refilling. In the case of the 2200, one could 
empty an existing 2200 black cartridge, refill with the desired ink 
then zap the cartridge. Somehow I suspect nozzle characteristics may be 
tuned to a particular ink and not another. But that's what pioneers are 
for.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Volkan" <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
> Hi again,
> The ink that I have used is from MIS Associates Inc,
> Part No: MP-2-MK
> Ink color: Universal Black
> www.inksupply.com
> I think critical part is drying of the ink indeed I cooked it very
> well.  Another issue is, never try to use base based etcher it should
> be acidic. 
> I will do some more experiment this weekend and I will post results.

Thanks!

Universal Black is listed under many inksets including MISPRO. $12 for
2 ounces, $18 for 4 ounces.
http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_mispro.cfm

MISPRO-2-MK for 2 ounces, MISPRO-4-MK for 4 ounces. Or a pint,
MISPRO-PT-MK for $50.

I think I already have a version of this ink.

Steve Greenfield

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:16:53 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

>
>
> If that's all the chip does then it should simply be a matter of
>
> getting the right ink in a bottle (or pouring it out of a cartridge),
>
> the right empty cartridge, the right chip zapper (I see them going for
>
> $10.00 these days) and refilling. In the case of the 2200, one could
>
> empty an existing 2200 black cartridge, refill with the desired ink
>
> then zap the cartridge. Somehow I suspect nozzle characteristics may be
>
> tuned to a particular ink and not another. But that's what pioneers are
>
> for.


Why not avoid all this silly chip nonsense and use a older printer with  
600dpi?
Would be enough for me.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >As I said before, most Epsons take the exact same /shape/ of
> >cartridge, the only differences are the chips which let the printer
> >know which # and the volume left inside.
> 
> If that's all the chip does then it should simply be a matter of 
> getting the right ink in a bottle (or pouring it out of a cartridge), 
> the right empty cartridge, the right chip zapper (I see them going for 
> $10.00 these days) and refilling. In the case of the 2200, one could 
> empty an existing 2200 black cartridge, refill with the desired ink 
> then zap the cartridge. Somehow I suspect nozzle characteristics may be 
> tuned to a particular ink and not another. But that's what pioneers are 
> for.

The same inks work across a wide variety of Epsons. I've tried out the
same inks in many Epsons, including: 600, 800, 820, 880, 900, 1200,
1280, 1520, 3000, 5000. And loads of people on the Heat Transfers list
use the same ink in the C80 to C88, C60 to C68, etc. and more etc.

MIS has empty cartridges and both resettable and auto-reset chips.
http://www.inksupply.com

You may also be able to freeze the chip counters with SSC Service
Utility (google for it). It's a great utility for running cleaning
cycles, resetting the protection counter (aka waste ink tank counter),
etc.

Steve Greenfield

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:14:43 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

> It used to be "this paper", "that paper" now it's going to be "this
>
> ink", "that ink" and a whole new field of ink chemistry is about to
>
> blossom forth.


If it allows me to make pcbs easier, better, faster, with a better  
component legend (over partial copper) and better dimensional accuracy  
i'll be all too happy to have this discussion.

TT works great for me, but i think a direct printing process could well  
simplify the process significantly.

ST

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:23:50 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> I think I already have a version of this ink.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield


So how come you still manage to put a dot on the end of this sentence,  
shouldn't you be rushing off to try it? ;-)

ST

Hot dog steve!  Give it a go and let us know how it all works out.  
There is a lot of anxious people waiting :-)






--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Volkan" <vsahin@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi again,
> > The ink that I have used is from MIS Associates Inc,
> > Part No: MP-2-MK
> > Ink color: Universal Black
> > www.inksupply.com
> > I think critical part is drying of the ink indeed I cooked it 
very
> > well.  Another issue is, never try to use base based etcher it 
should
> > be acidic. 
> > I will do some more experiment this weekend and I will post 
results.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Universal Black is listed under many inksets including MISPRO. $12 
for

> 2 ounces, $18 for 4 ounces.
> http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_mispro.cfm
> 
> MISPRO-2-MK for 2 ounces, MISPRO-4-MK for 4 ounces. Or a pint,
> MISPRO-PT-MK for $50.
> 
> I think I already have a version of this ink.
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

>Why not avoid all this silly chip nonsense and use a older printer 
>with 600dpi?

In my case I have an Epson 2200 gathering dust. Others may want to use 
what they already have too. Refilling and zapping is quite popular in 
the Epson "world". In fact, next to bulk CIS systems, it's the cheapest 
way to go with a modern Epson printer IMO.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

>The same inks work across a wide variety of Epsons.

Who sells Durabrite Ultra ink or equivalent in bottles or refill kits?


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:23:50 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > I think I already have a version of this ink.
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
> 
> 
> So how come you still manage to put a dot on the end of this sentence,  
> shouldn't you be rushing off to try it? ;-)

ROFL! Because I'd have tested these inks long ago if I weren't way too
backed up with projects.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> Hot dog steve!  Give it a go and let us know how it all works out.  
> There is a lot of anxious people waiting :-)

I'd love to, however it will have to wait 'til next week.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >Why not avoid all this silly chip nonsense and use a older printer 
> >with 600dpi?
> 
> In my case I have an Epson 2200 gathering dust. Others may want to use 
> what they already have too. Refilling and zapping is quite popular in 
> the Epson "world". In fact, next to bulk CIS systems, it's the cheapest 
> way to go with a modern Epson printer IMO.

You could probably sell that 2200 and have more than enough to buy
several lesser Epsons.

Craigslist here always has older Epsons for $20 or less, while a 2200
will go for $100 to $200.

BTW, I build bulk ink systems to order. They are not the
run-of-the-mill bottle and hose system.
<http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/bulkinksystem/ExtensiveThoughtsOnCIS.html>

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >The same inks work across a wide variety of Epsons.
> 
> Who sells Durabrite Ultra ink or equivalent in bottles or refill kits?

Epson will not sell ink in bulk, sort of. I suppose you could buy ink
for the big Epsons that use huge ink tanks, like the 7000/9000, 4800, etc.

However, that's still spendy. The original poster gave the exact ink
he used that works, and it's -much- cheaper than any Epson OEM ink.

Try getting 4 ounces of any Epson brand ink for $18. ;')

Steve Greenfield

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:38:02 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> <http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/bulkinksystem/ExtensiveThoughtsOnCIS.html>
>
>
> Steve Greenfield


It says "Click on the graphics for a closer view" but i can't see no  
graphics.
Just saying, might be there are none on purpose, i didn't read the text.

ST

>You could probably sell that 2200 and have more than enough to buy
>several lesser Epsons.

I already have a 785EPX and a R320 as well. You can't control the ink 
density with these lesser Epsons and their dimensional accuracy is 
inferior. No where as bad as a laser but still not as good as the 2200. 
Also, the 2200 has a straight path and can handle 1.3mm thick media, so 
it would be the perfect candidate for direct to copper printing even 
though it's not really a primary concern of mine right now.

It's gathering dust for two reasons...It guzzles ink for photo 
printing...Ultrachrome ink sucks on transparencies. But thanks to your 
empty cartridges link I'm about to change all that.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

>Epson will not sell ink in bulk

Not interested in Epson ink. I'm using Epson's tradename loosely.

>The original poster gave the exact ink
>he used that works, and it's -much- cheaper than any Epson OEM ink.

It's also Ultrachrome ink. The last thing I'd expect to work if it has 
similar properties to Epson's Ultrachrome ink.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

Is this magic ink in the uk?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:38:02 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> >
<http://www.polyphoto.com/tutorials/bulkinksystem/ExtensiveThoughtsOnCIS.html>
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
> 
> 
> It says "Click on the graphics for a closer view" but i can't see no  
> graphics.
> Just saying, might be there are none on purpose, i didn't read the text.
> 

Sorry, I used another page as a template.

Steve Greenfield

nothing worse than a temp late

Have any of you guys looked at this outfit:

http://www.grafco.net/inglese/Introduction.htm

Jim

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >Epson will not sell ink in bulk
> 
> Not interested in Epson ink. I'm using Epson's tradename loosely.

Since specific formulation may be extremely important here, I don't
think using any name or designation loosely is in order in this case.

> >The original poster gave the exact ink
> >he used that works, and it's -much- cheaper than any Epson OEM ink.
> 
> It's also Ultrachrome ink. The last thing I'd expect to work if it has 
> similar properties to Epson's Ultrachrome ink.

Ultrachrome is a trademark of Epson and refers to a specific ink. What
MIS supplies as a replacement for Epsons that use Ultrachrome is not
necessarily the same thing as Ultrachrome. After all, part of the idea
is cheaper ink, but more so is improved characteristics compared to
most of Epson's older inksets.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> Is this magic ink in the uk?
>

Check with MIS, I'm fairly sure they ship to the UK.
http://www.inksupply.com

Steve Greenfield

Has anyone tried heat transfer paper and ink, like the sutff you make T 
shirts tranfers with?

Jim

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jamesgeidl" <jgeidl@...> wrote:
>
> Have any of you guys looked at this outfit:
> 
> http://www.grafco.net/inglese/Introduction.htm

Not to be facetious, but... have you? ;') their link to inkjet inks is
broken.

There are loads of different companies selling inkjet ink.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jamesgeidl" <jgeidl@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried heat transfer paper and ink, like the sutff you make T 
> shirts tranfers with?
> 
> Jim
>

Dye sublimation transfers only work on coated surfaces. The dye turns
to gas, soaks into a polymer coating and goes back to solid. So no go.

The other type of heat transfer is a sheet of release paper covered
with a plastisol-type stuff that the ink adheres too, when pressed the
entire plastisol sheet sticks to the Tshirt. So no go with that, either.

Steve Greenfield

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:21:34 +0200, jamesgeidl <jgeidl@...>  
wrote:

> Has anyone tried heat transfer paper and ink, like the sutff you make T
>
> shirts tranfers with?
>
>
> Jim


there is a carrier material transferred that would mask the complete pcb.

ST

I didn't have any problem getting into the site.  The reason I mentioned
them is that they sell some specialty inks that might help.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:23 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jamesgeidl" <jgeidl@...> wrote:
>
> Have any of you guys looked at this outfit:
> 
> http://www.grafco.net/inglese/Introduction.htm

Not to be facetious, but... have you? ;') their link to inkjet inks is
broken.

There are loads of different companies selling inkjet ink.

Steve Greenfield






Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
Yahoo! Groups Links

>Since specific formulation may be extremely important here, I don't
>think using any name or designation loosely is in order in this case.

Pedantically speaking you're correct...Do you know anyone selling ink 
in bottles or refill kits claiming it to be equivalent to Epson's 
Durabrite Ultra ink?

>Ultrachrome is a trademark of Epson and refers to a specific ink. 
>What MIS supplies as a replacement for Epsons that use Ultrachrome >is 
not necessarily the same thing as Ultrachrome.

Geez, I never thought of that since they called it "MIS PRO Ultrachrome 
Equivalent inks"....Cut the comedy!

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

On 13/04/06, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jamesgeidl" <jgeidl@...> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone tried heat transfer paper and ink, like the sutff you make T
> > shirts tranfers with?
> >
> > Jim
> >
>
> Dye sublimation transfers only work on coated surfaces. The dye turns
> to gas, soaks into a polymer coating and goes back to solid. So no go.
>
> The other type of heat transfer is a sheet of release paper covered
> with a plastisol-type stuff that the ink adheres too, when pressed the
> entire plastisol sheet sticks to the Tshirt. So no go with that, either.
>
>

And then the third type that works just like TT, the dye is 'gassed'
onto a transfer sheet and then wrapped around mugs etc and put in a
heated 'mug cooker', the image is transfered to the mug.

I once fixed a PC in a shop that did this, and brass signs that were
printed the same way, and it does work for pcbs etc, because I asked
em for a sample print!

Problem was it was expensive, it was an a3 epson converted to bulk ink
feed, and they paid 1250ukp for it and would only get the paper/ink
from the same supplier because of the warrenty, and they said 'its not
cheap to run' as the ink is expensive and the papers worth more per sq
inch than paper money.........

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> On 13/04/06, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jamesgeidl" <jgeidl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Has anyone tried heat transfer paper and ink, like the sutff you
make T
> > > shirts tranfers with?
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> >
> > Dye sublimation transfers only work on coated surfaces. The dye turns
> > to gas, soaks into a polymer coating and goes back to solid. So no go.
> >
> > The other type of heat transfer is a sheet of release paper covered
> > with a plastisol-type stuff that the ink adheres too, when pressed the
> > entire plastisol sheet sticks to the Tshirt. So no go with that,
either.
> >
> >
> 
> And then the third type that works just like TT, the dye is 'gassed'
> onto a transfer sheet and then wrapped around mugs etc and put in a
> heated 'mug cooker', the image is transfered to the mug.

> I once fixed a PC in a shop that did this, and brass signs that were
> printed the same way, and it does work for pcbs etc, because I asked
> em for a sample print!

You mean you had them transfer this to untreated PCB, and etched it?
Or just transfer a PCB pattern onto their brass?

> Problem was it was expensive, it was an a3 epson converted to bulk ink
> feed, and they paid 1250ukp for it and would only get the paper/ink
> from the same supplier because of the warrenty, and they said 'its not
> cheap to run' as the ink is expensive and the papers worth more per sq
> inch than paper money.........

It sounds an awful lot like inkjet dye sub. Which requires polymer
coated hard items, or polyester fabric.

Steve Greenfield

Hi Again,
I could not able to stop myself and decided to make a
test pattern. I put the scanned images under
photo/volkan's folder. All scanned images are 1 to 1.
It is really promising and no magic. I believe that 
with this process, everyone can get similar results. I
don't know whether 1 mil line is really a 1 mil line
or not, but I drew it as 1 mil. I measured the
conductivity of each line except 1 mil and 2 mil
lines, all of them are conducting. Now, for me it is
time to modify the printer or buy another one just for
PCB. 

Volkan.

WOW!

If you were a girl i would probably ask you to marry me by now! ;-)

I'll have to get some of that ink!

By the way, the photo section reduces image resolution sometimes, so if  
you have it larger than 480 x 271 please upload to files section. Only the  
moderator and owner of the photo can see full resolution in the photos  
section.


ST


On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 07:28:23 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>  
wrote:

> Hi Again,
>
> I could not able to stop myself and decided to make a
>
> test pattern. I put the scanned images under
>
> photo/volkan's folder. All scanned images are 1 to 1.
>
> It is really promising and no magic. I believe that
>
> with this process, everyone can get similar results. I
>
> don't know whether 1 mil line is really a 1 mil line
>
> or not, but I drew it as 1 mil. I measured the
>
> conductivity of each line except 1 mil and 2 mil
>
> lines, all of them are conducting. Now, for me it is
>
> time to modify the printer or buy another one just for
>
> PCB.
>
>
> Volkan.

That is fantastic!  I have got to give it a go here too.  Earlier it 
was mentioned that you have to use an acidic etchant as opposed to a 
base etchant, is ferric chloride base or acidic?




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> WOW!
> 
> If you were a girl i would probably ask you to marry me by now! ;-)
> 
> I'll have to get some of that ink!
> 
> By the way, the photo section reduces image resolution sometimes, 
so if  
> you have it larger than 480 x 271 please upload to files section. 
Only the  
> moderator and owner of the photo can see full resolution in the 
photos  

> section.
> 
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 07:28:23 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Again,
> >
> > I could not able to stop myself and decided to make a
> >
> > test pattern. I put the scanned images under
> >
> > photo/volkan's folder. All scanned images are 1 to 1.
> >
> > It is really promising and no magic. I believe that
> >
> > with this process, everyone can get similar results. I
> >
> > don't know whether 1 mil line is really a 1 mil line
> >
> > or not, but I drew it as 1 mil. I measured the
> >
> > conductivity of each line except 1 mil and 2 mil
> >
> > lines, all of them are conducting. Now, for me it is
> >
> > time to modify the printer or buy another one just for
> >
> > PCB.
> >
> >
> > Volkan.
>

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:16:15 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> That is fantastic!  I have got to give it a go here too.  Earlier it
>
> was mentioned that you have to use an acidic etchant as opposed to a
>
> base etchant, is ferric chloride base or acidic?
>
>

FeCl was used by Volkan, so it must work.
I would think it is acidic, but i'm not sure at all.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 10:16 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results


> That is fantastic!  I have got to give it a go here too.  Earlier it 
> was mentioned that you have to use an acidic etchant as opposed to a 
> base etchant, is ferric chloride base or acidic?

FeCl3 is acidic.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Good to hear!  Now to find the ink locally.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" 
<leon.heller@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 10:16 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results
> 
> 
> > That is fantastic!  I have got to give it a go here too.  
Earlier it 
> > was mentioned that you have to use an acidic etchant as opposed 
to a 
> > base etchant, is ferric chloride base or acidic?
> 
> FeCl3 is acidic.
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM
> leon.heller@...
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
> ---
> [This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your 
responsibility 
> to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you 
are
> currently using to read this email. ]
>

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:12:27 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> Good to hear!  Now to find the ink locally.


http://www.inksupply.com/ seems to have reasonable prices and shipping i  
think.

ST

When I searched for it there, it showed that it was sold out.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:12:27 +0200, lcdpublishing  
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> 
> > Good to hear!  Now to find the ink locally.
> 
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/ seems to have reasonable prices and 
shipping i  

> think.
> 
> ST
>

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:27:00 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> When I searched for it there, it showed that it was sold out.
>


Did it? You must have gone further down the order process than myself  
then..
That's too bad...

Which quantity did you try, maybe the others are available.

I don't think there is another supply for this brand, couldn't find any  
with google so far.

ST

I went into an area where you could shop by part number and typed in 
the part number that was specified.  


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:27:00 +0200, lcdpublishing  
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> 
> > When I searched for it there, it showed that it was sold out.
> >
> 
> 
> Did it? You must have gone further down the order process than 
myself  
> then..
> That's too bad...
> 
> Which quantity did you try, maybe the others are available.
> 
> I don't think there is another supply for this brand, couldn't 
find any  

> with google so far.
> 
> ST
>

>
> You mean you had them transfer this to untreated PCB, and etched it?
> Or just transfer a PCB pattern onto their brass?

No they printed me a door sign, 'manager', because thats what they
were doing that day, 'manager' in black to put on brass, so I went
home with a piece of paper with the word 'reganam' which I iron'd onto
pcb, then etched, worked a treat, and thats what started me wishing
for something like that I could afford, but never found.

Only the black transfered, the paper seemed to me to have a waxy /
silicone coating.

Like I said its exactly like TT but its jet printed waxy type ink.

I dont know if they still have it, not seen them in about 3 years
since I went for some 'no smoking' signs for my taxi

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:47:33 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> I went into an area where you could shop by part number and typed in
>
> the part number that was specified.


Maybe try via this link:

<http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_mispro.cfm>

ST

I just ran a sheet of thin pcb material through my wife's EPSON R220 
printer. (With a lot of trepedation, if I screwed up her printer I 
would really be in the doghouse!)

This was a quick and dirty test printing her business card, no board 
prep just a quick print.

I was very surprised. The ink was very uniform on thin lines, but did 
puddle on larger areas. (Note: this was a raw board -- no prep).

I'm going to let it dry and the 'cook' it to check the durability.

By then I'll have a prepped board and try the full process.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:16:30 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

> I just ran a sheet of thin pcb material through my wife's EPSON R220
>
> printer. (With a lot of trepedation, if I screwed up her printer I
>
> would really be in the doghouse!)
>
>
> This was a quick and dirty test printing her business card, no board
>
> prep just a quick print.
>
>
> I was very surprised. The ink was very uniform on thin lines, but did
>
> puddle on larger areas. (Note: this was a raw board -- no prep).
>
>
> I'm going to let it dry and the 'cook' it to check the durability.
>
>
> By then I'll have a prepped board and try the full process.
>
>
> TANSTAAFL!
>
>
> Myc


Thanks for making such tests under great peril to yourself ;-)


The cleaning will have some effect on the beading up you see on larger  
areas i'd expect.

I'm curious as to how well this inkjet ink sticks to the copper, would it  
be suitable for component legend?

In 3 days a auction for a broken tektronix phaser wax printer ends. I  
dunno how it will develop but i might be able to afford it. But hearing  
these inkjet things i'm not sure if i should try for it at all...


ST

Quick trial:

Epson R220 
Epson Durabrite ink
Thin flexible Copperclad-not prepared
Dried / cured with hair dryer

Results:

Ran through printer fine
Thin lines printed well
Wide areas - beaded up
Printed areas did not move when rubbed
Water resistancy - poor

Failure!
Ink did not 'grab' onto surface

Next trial:

Prepare board, scour and pre-etch with Tarn-X and repeat.

Myc

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mycroft2152" 
<mycroft2152@...> wrote:
>
> I just ran a sheet of thin pcb material through my wife's EPSON 
R220 
> printer. (With a lot of trepedation, if I screwed up her printer I 
> would really be in the doghouse!)
> 
> This was a quick and dirty test printing her business card, no 
board 
> prep just a quick print.
> 
> I was very surprised. The ink was very uniform on thin lines, but 
did 

> puddle on larger areas. (Note: this was a raw board -- no prep).
> 
> I'm going to let it dry and the 'cook' it to check the durability.
> 
> By then I'll have a prepped board and try the full process.
> 
> TANSTAAFL!
> 
> Myc
>

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:50:57 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
wrote:

>
>
> Next trial:
>
>
> Prepare board, scour and pre-etch with Tarn-X and repeat.
>
>
> Myc


If this doesn't work either one might conclude durabright inks don't work?

Then we would need more tests with the specific ink Volkan used.

ST

I just realized that the original poster had not done any copper fill.

Volkan, is it possible to get another test print using copper fill?  If you
don't have such a feature, can you just print a large square using Word,
PaintBrush or anything?

It would be nice to know if you get quality results using your setup before
we invest.

Thanks!

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : avril 14 2006 09:51
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results - quick trial


Quick trial:

Epson R220 
Epson Durabrite ink
Thin flexible Copperclad-not prepared
Dried / cured with hair dryer

Results:

Ran through printer fine
Thin lines printed well
Wide areas - beaded up
Printed areas did not move when rubbed
Water resistancy - poor

Failure!
Ink did not 'grab' onto surface

Next trial:

Prepare board, scour and pre-etch with Tarn-X and repeat.

Myc

Hi Robert,
It does look like he did a large block on the second example - check 
the photos section again.  It appears to have come out just fine.

I just did a very crude test with durabrite inks.  I printed on 
plain paper and got some water on it to see if it would run like I 
have seen with other inks.  It didn't run or bleed nearly as bad - 
although it did bleed a bit.

If I didn't NEED my CX6600 for so much important business work, I 
would run some samples right now with it.  But I simply cannot risk 
losing this printer - it's only a week or so old!

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan 
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:
>
> I just realized that the original poster had not done any copper 
fill.
> 
> Volkan, is it possible to get another test print using copper 
fill?  If you
> don't have such a feature, can you just print a large square using 
Word,
> PaintBrush or anything?
> 
> It would be nice to know if you get quality results using your 
setup before
> we invest.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Robert
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
[mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De

> la part de mycroft2152
> Envoyé : avril 14 2006 09:51
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results - quick trial
> 
> 
> Quick trial:
> 
> Epson R220 
> Epson Durabrite ink
> Thin flexible Copperclad-not prepared
> Dried / cured with hair dryer
> 
> Results:
> 
> Ran through printer fine
> Thin lines printed well
> Wide areas - beaded up
> Printed areas did not move when rubbed
> Water resistancy - poor
> 
> Failure!
> Ink did not 'grab' onto surface
> 
> Next trial:
> 
> Prepare board, scour and pre-etch with Tarn-X and repeat.
> 
> Myc
>

Then that's great news!

I must've been dozing off going through that post.  I only remembered the
first PCB which had no copper fill.

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de lcdpublishing
Envoyé : avril 14 2006 10:26
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results - quick trial


Hi Robert,
It does look like he did a large block on the second example - check 
the photos section again.  It appears to have come out just fine.

I just did a very crude test with durabrite inks.  I printed on 
plain paper and got some water on it to see if it would run like I 
have seen with other inks.  It didn't run or bleed nearly as bad - 
although it did bleed a bit.

If I didn't NEED my CX6600 for so much important business work, I 
would run some samples right now with it.  But I simply cannot risk 
losing this printer - it's only a week or so old!

Chris

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Robert Hedan" <robert.hedan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results - quick trial


I just realized that the original poster had not done any copper fill.

Volkan, is it possible to get another test print using copper fill?  If you
don't have such a feature, can you just print a large square using Word,
PaintBrush or anything?

It would be nice to know if you get quality results using your setup before
we invest.

If that is a problem, it could always be cross-hatched.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mycroft2152" <mycroft2152@...> 
wrote:
>
> Quick trial:
> 
> Epson R220 
> Epson Durabrite ink
> Thin flexible Copperclad-not prepared
> Dried / cured with hair dryer
> 
> Results:
> 
> Ran through printer fine
> Thin lines printed well
> Wide areas - beaded up
> Printed areas did not move when rubbed
> Water resistancy - poor
> 
> Failure!
> Ink did not 'grab' onto surface

Question: Did you trick the R220 into using Durabrite ink by swapping 
the chips on the cartridges, or did you use the ink that you're 
supposed to use with the R220? Because the ink for the R-series is not 
Durabrite ink. Also, if you used a chip-swapping trick, which kind of 
Durabrite did you use, Regular or Ultra?

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:50:57 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
>wrote:
>
>  
>
>
>If this doesn't work either one might conclude durabright inks don't work?
>
>Then we would need more tests with the specific ink Volkan used.
>
>  
>
  Water based paints dissolve instantly in water if there's still a 
little water left, or not if they're completely dry.  And etchant rolls 
right off a fresh copper board, but sticks once the board has etched a 
little.  I'd imagine this has mostly to do with surface prep and drying 
the ink.  Could be a more resistant ink, but if it was some generic I'd 
doubt it..

  Of course, the great surface tension reducer is soap.  A thin film of 
soap on the board or a drop or two in the ink might go a long way for 
any ink working.  Could cause problems though, same things could easily 
affect etching or printing ability.  Should've kept a couple more of my 
old inkjets, but more than a few adds up to a lot of bulk.

Alan

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > You mean you had them transfer this to untreated PCB, and etched it?
> > Or just transfer a PCB pattern onto their brass?
> 
> No they printed me a door sign, 'manager', because thats what they
> were doing that day, 'manager' in black to put on brass, so I went
> home with a piece of paper with the word 'reganam' which I iron'd onto
> pcb, then etched, worked a treat, and thats what started me wishing
> for something like that I could afford, but never found.
> 
> Only the black transfered, the paper seemed to me to have a waxy /
> silicone coating.
> 
> Like I said its exactly like TT but its jet printed waxy type ink.

That sounds like the carrier for the dye sub is transfering. IE, it is
not working by dye sub. It's nearly impossible to use a hand iron to
do dye sublimation.

Inkjet dye sub is particles suspended in a solvent (water based, in
this case). At about 400F, they vaporize. What probably happened in
your case, is that they did not vaporize, but instead the dried base
of particles and carrier stuck to the metal.

I'd have never thought to try that! It is very expensive, though.
Especially since Sawgrass has been lawyering all other makers of the
ink to death.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:50:57 +0200, mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>  
> wrote:

> > Next trial:
> > Prepare board, scour and pre-etch with Tarn-X and repeat.
> 
> If this doesn't work either one might conclude durabright inks don't
work?
> 
> Then we would need more tests with the specific ink Volkan used.

The R220 is dye ink. I'm not surprised that it has no water resistance.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
> It does look like he did a large block on the second example - check 
> the photos section again.  It appears to have come out just fine.
> 
> I just did a very crude test with durabrite inks.  I printed on 
> plain paper and got some water on it to see if it would run like I 
> have seen with other inks.  It didn't run or bleed nearly as bad - 
> although it did bleed a bit.

The pigmented inks I have are called Magic Mix, the black is one of
the MIS inks. I can print on fabric or paper and hold it under running
water, no running or bleeding at all.

If I wash the fabric, some of the ink will come out, but I recently
found out that I need to let it dry longer on fabric, on the order of
weeks rather than hours or days.

At this moment I only have one printer with those inks in it, a rather
spendy Epson 5000 6 color 2880dpi 13" wide printer that I'd rather not
risk. Although it does have a board-straight paper path.

And at this moment I'm supposed to be doing something other than
hanging out in Yahoogroups. ;')

Steve Greenfield

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:14:28 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> And at this moment I'm supposed to be doing something other than
>
> hanging out in Yahoogroups. ;')
>

Yes indeed Steve, you should instead be taping a piece of thin copper foil  
to a sheet of paper and try this in your expensive printer.
If you tape down the edges i don't see that much danger, for me anyway ;-)

So what printers would work to test the ink Volkan used? I haven't even  
thought about inkjets for years. I'm not sure if it would work at all in  
that old epson i have.

Also, i would first need to find someone to forward some of that ink for  
paypal, since they only accept credit card there which i don't have.

ST

Hi guys,

 

I'm a complete newby at making my own PC boards, though I know something
about designing circuits and programming micros.  I did that for many years.
It's just that before I retired I always had somebody else that was in
charge of getting the boards laid out and made so that I could start
debugging them.  Now I'm on my own.

 

I'm going to ask a question that is so broad that it is almost unanswerable,
I know, but I'm going to ask it anyway.  Namely, how do I get started and
what do I do?

 

I have a good computer, an HP 960c deskjet inkjet printer, and a Samsung
ML-2010 laser printer. I have downloaded ExpressPCB, EaglePCB, and QCAD;
don't know which, if any of those, to use.  I have a table top drill press
and a table top band saw with a bimetal blade, which is essentially a
hacksaw blade.  I've looked on Ebay but have never seen any carbide tipped
drill bits small enough to drill the holes in PCB's, nor have it seen them
in standard Home Depot style stores.  Do they even make them that small?  If
not, what do I use to drill the boards?  One of the local PCB manufacturers
are great guys and have given me a bunch of double sided copper clad scrap
boards to work with.  Scrap to them is beautiful rectangular pieces about
8"x20", far bigger that I'll ever need.  Right now I have 6 of them to work
with.  I want to do in-house flow soldering, so I can get an electric
skillet, if that is the way to go.  I want to do this to handle SOIC
packages.  These tired, old hands are no good for soldering them directly.

 

So here I am, all dressed up and no place to go.  At least, I don't know
what to do now.  Since I joined this website, I've stored over 300 emails
and I thought I would just read them all and figure out what to do from
them.  But it is overwhelming.  I'm hoping that an "older and wiser head"
will take pity on a poor, struggling newby and point me in the right
direction to get started off on the right foot.  If anybody has some
step-by-step instructions written down somewhere, that would be fantastic.
I know it is a lot to ask, but in reading some of the emails, it has become
obvious that there are a lot of guys out there that are willing to help
others.

 

Thanks,

Mark 

 

  _____  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi guys,

 

(I sent this message once before but I'm not sure I had it addressed right.
If you get it twice, I apologize.)

 

I'm a complete newby at making my own PC boards, though I know something
about designing circuits and programming micros.  I did that for many years.
It's just that before I retired I always had somebody else that was in
charge of getting the boards laid out and made so that I could start
debugging them.  Now I'm on my own.

 

I'm going to ask a question that is so broad that it is almost unanswerable,
I know, but I'm going to ask it anyway.  Namely, how do I get started and
what do I do?

 

I have a good computer, an HP 960c deskjet inkjet printer, and a Samsung
ML-2010 laser printer. I have downloaded ExpressPCB, EaglePCB, and QCAD;
don't know which, if any of those, to use.  I have a table top drill press
and a table top band saw with a bimetal blade, which is essentially a
hacksaw blade.  I've looked on Ebay but have never seen any carbide tipped
drill bits small enough to drill the holes in PCB's, nor have it seen them
in standard Home Depot style stores.  Do they even make them that small?  If
not, what do I use to drill the boards?  One of the local PCB manufacturers
are great guys and have given me a bunch of double sided copper clad scrap
boards to work with.  Scrap to them is beautiful rectangular pieces about
8"x20", far bigger that I'll ever need.  Right now I have 6 of them to work
with.  I want to do in-house flow soldering, so I can get an electric
skillet, if that is the way to go.  I want to do this to handle SOIC
packages.  These tired, old hands are no good for soldering them directly.

 

So here I am, all dressed up and no place to go.  At least, I don't know
what to do now.  Since I joined this website, I've stored over 300 emails
and I thought I would just read them all and figure out what to do from
them.  But it is overwhelming.  I'm hoping that an "older and wiser head"
will take pity on a poor, struggling newby and point me in the right
direction to get started off on the right foot.  If anybody has some
step-by-step instructions written down somewhere, that would be fantastic.
I know it is a lot to ask, but in reading some of the emails, it has become
obvious that there are a lot of guys out there that are willing to help
others.

 

Thanks,

Mark 

 

  _____  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Stefan,

I can take care of you if we find out this all works.  I can order 
and ship it to you.  Just be sure to contact me off-list when the 
time comes.

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:14:28 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > And at this moment I'm supposed to be doing something other than
> >
> > hanging out in Yahoogroups. ;')
> >
> 
> Yes indeed Steve, you should instead be taping a piece of thin 
copper foil  
> to a sheet of paper and try this in your expensive printer.
> If you tape down the edges i don't see that much danger, for me 
anyway ;-)
> 
> So what printers would work to test the ink Volkan used? I haven't 
even  
> thought about inkjets for years. I'm not sure if it would work at 
all in  
> that old epson i have.
> 
> Also, i would first need to find someone to forward some of that 
ink for  
> paypal, since they only accept credit card there which i don't 
have.

> 
> ST
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:14:28 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > And at this moment I'm supposed to be doing something other than
> >
> > hanging out in Yahoogroups. ;')
> >
> 
> Yes indeed Steve, you should instead be taping a piece of thin
copper foil  
> to a sheet of paper and try this in your expensive printer.
> If you tape down the edges i don't see that much danger, for me
anyway ;-)

I don't have any copper foil laying around, but I do have some of that
really ultrathin doublesided PCB. If I get everything else done today
with some time to spare, I may cut out a piece and really carefully
smooth the edges and try.

> So what printers would work to test the ink Volkan used? I haven't
even  
> thought about inkjets for years. I'm not sure if it would work at
all in  
> that old epson i have.

As it would happen, the older Epsons are probably -less- of a problem.
See, Epson keeps reducing the size of the nozzles. I've run this
pigmented ink in an Epson 600 and it worked fine.

> Also, i would first need to find someone to forward some of that ink
for  
> paypal, since they only accept credit card there which i don't have.

Argh!

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
...
> Also, i would first need to find someone to forward some of that ink
for  
> paypal, since they only accept credit card there which i don't have.

Hmm.... if this ink checks out, that may be a way for me to make a few
dollars and convince my wife there is a reason I'm doing this list.

Steve Greenfield

Hi Stephan,
I didn't know that image resolution is different.
Thanks,  but I could not able to upload high
resolution images because of our group is almost at
limit (94% of 20MB). 
If you need I can directly e-mail them to you.
Volkan

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:22:43 +0200, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...>  
wrote:

> Hi Stephan,
>
> I didn't know that image resolution is different.
>
> Thanks,  but I could not able to upload high
>
> resolution images because of our group is almost at
>
> limit (94% of 20MB).
>
> If you need I can directly e-mail them to you.
>
> Volkan


You can send them to me and i will upload them somewhere if you like.
There is a archive group to get around the limit, but i'm happy to put  
those images up.

ST

I just received the most wonderful high resolution pictures of the inkjet  
tests from Volkan.

I _MUST_ have that ink ;-)

i see two flaws in the circuit example, on the left half, one short and  
something that looks like a smear? Maybe Volkan you know how those came to  
be? But those are minor in view of the good quality of the boards.

Anyway, the images can be found at:
<www.trethan.at.tf/pub/volkan>

Thanks for the files, those say much more than the ones in the photos  
section and make me all the more eager to try this myself.

ST

Yeah, I see 2 shorts in the left side, but I was mostly interested in the
fill pattern and in the lines.  Volkan was able to get quality traces even
down to very thin lines, most impressive!  This would makes things so much
easier.

Now, converting a printer to take standard thickness PCBs would be the next
step.  Double-sided PCBs would still be an issue, but I think that can be
solved.

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoyé : avril 14 2006 13:25
À : Homebrew_PCBs@...m
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results - high resolution
images


I just received the most wonderful high resolution pictures of the inkjet  
tests from Volkan.

I _MUST_ have that ink ;-)

i see two flaws in the circuit example, on the left half, one short and  
something that looks like a smear? Maybe Volkan you know how those came to  
be? But those are minor in view of the good quality of the boards.

Anyway, the images can be found at: <www.trethan.at.tf/pub/volkan>

Thanks for the files, those say much more than the ones in the photos  
section and make me all the more eager to try this myself.

ST

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:43:53 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Now, converting a printer to take standard thickness PCBs would be the  
> next
>
> step.  Double-sided PCBs would still be an issue, but I think that can be
>
> solved.
>
>
> Robert


I think getting hold of the ink and reproducing the success is required  
before that.
You know how difficult the seemingly simple reproduction of results can  
be, look at toner transfer.

ST

Most true.  I'll have to get some of that ink as soon as I can.

I just happened to receive a scrap Lexmark Z45.  I'm going to strip it and
see if I can clear a straight-through path.  I think the paper takes a turn
down the pinter, but maybe I can gut some of the stuff out.  It's scrap
anyways so I don't mind screwing around with it.  I think the print head is
dried up, I have to check it out first.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoyé : avril 14 2006 13:49
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results - high resolution
images


On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:43:53 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Now, converting a printer to take standard thickness PCBs would be the
> next
>
> step.  Double-sided PCBs would still be an issue, but I think that can 
> be
>
> solved.
>
>
> Robert


I think getting hold of the ink and reproducing the success is required  
before that.
You know how difficult the seemingly simple reproduction of results can  
be, look at toner transfer.

ST


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Stephan,
These shorts are coming from the towel tissue.
Cleaning is also very important. Amount of ink is
another factor. I am using ultra glossy setting to
print on PCB, we don't need to much ink on board.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:
>
> Most true.  I'll have to get some of that ink as soon as I can.
> 
> I just happened to receive a scrap Lexmark Z45.  I'm going to strip
it and
> see if I can clear a straight-through path.  I think the paper takes
a turn
> down the pinter, but maybe I can gut some of the stuff out.  It's scrap
> anyways so I don't mind screwing around with it.  I think the print
head is
> dried up, I have to check it out first.

Don't bother, that ink only works in an Epson.

Bubblejet printers like Canon, HP, Lexmark, etc. will not work with
most pigmented inks.

Steve Greenfield

What happens with ordinary inkjet ink anyways?  It comes off when dipped in
ferric chloride solution?

That's too bad, I already had this printer taken apart.  I've identified all
the important switches and figured I have to remove the teeth-rollers.  I
suppose the rear feeder roller would be plenty to push a PCB through.
Increasing the gap is a breeze by adding just a small ring to the rear
springs.  The print head passes clearly over a standard PCB thickness.

For double-sided PCBs, I would have tried printing 2 single-sided PCBs,
drilling pilot holes and glueing together.

So, exactly what printers are we limitted to with this ink?

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Steve
Envoyé : avril 14 2006 14:17
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results - high resolution images


Don't bother, that ink only works in an Epson.

Bubblejet printers like Canon, HP, Lexmark, etc. will not work with most
pigmented inks.

Steve Greenfield

What about this one?  It's inkjet, not bubblejet:
LEXMARK Z515 COLOR INKJET DIGITAL PHOTO PRINTER 

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Robert Hedan
Envoyé : avril 14 2006 14:40
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results - high resolution images


What happens with ordinary inkjet ink anyways?  It comes off when dipped in
ferric chloride solution?

That's too bad, I already had this printer taken apart.  I've identified all
the important switches and figured I have to remove the teeth-rollers.  I
suppose the rear feeder roller would be plenty to push a PCB through.
Increasing the gap is a breeze by adding just a small ring to the rear
springs.  The print head passes clearly over a standard PCB thickness.

For double-sided PCBs, I would have tried printing 2 single-sided PCBs,
drilling pilot holes and glueing together.

So, exactly what printers are we limitted to with this ink?

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Steve Envoyé : avril 14 2006 14:17 À :
Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet
results - high resolution images


Don't bother, that ink only works in an Epson.

Bubblejet printers like Canon, HP, Lexmark, etc. will not work with most
pigmented inks.

Steve Greenfield






Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links

I should know better after 28+ years of marriage not to ask my wife 
technical questions like, "Does your new printer have Durabrite ink?" 
And then not checking under the hood myself :O

Of course the cartridges are regular ink as they are not labelled 
Durabrite.


I've checked the Epson website and the Stylus CX3200 series printers 
come with the Durabrite inks. A few more searches and I found that 
Compusa has this model on sale this week for $59.

Might be worth checking out. Maybe I'll try to get there and do a test 
print.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

I just remembered I had a leftover ink cartridge from my CX5400.  It 
does not appear to be durabrite either :-(  I wouldn't have minded 
opening that cartridge up and using the INK directly for some 
testing and such.  



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mycroft2152" 
<mycroft2152@...> wrote:
>
> I should know better after 28+ years of marriage not to ask my 
wife 
> technical questions like, "Does your new printer have Durabrite 
ink?" 
> And then not checking under the hood myself :O
> 
> Of course the cartridges are regular ink as they are not labelled 
> Durabrite.
> 
> 
> I've checked the Epson website and the Stylus CX3200 series 
printers 
> come with the Durabrite inks. A few more searches and I found that 
> Compusa has this model on sale this week for $59.
> 
> Might be worth checking out. Maybe I'll try to get there and do a 
test 

> print.
> 
> TANSTAAFL!
> 
> Myc
>

<mail-in rebate(s)>

Robert
:P



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de mycroft2152
Envoyé : avril 14 2006 16:26
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Epson inkjet results - quick trial


...
Compusa has this model on sale this week for $59.
...

Myc







Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links

>I'm going to ask a question that is so broad that it is almost 
>unanswerable

That and just about any question you have is probably answered already 
either in these archives or Usenet's. Brush up on your archive 
searching skills. Example, Google the following;

>"drill bits" pcb carbide steel<

Happy hunting.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Mickelsen" 
<mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:
>

Once I know how to do a search, my search skills are pretty good.  I joined
the Homebrew_PCBs_Archives but I can't see any way to search them.  Am I
blind or just stupid?  If I can get an "in" I can probably find what I need,
but I don't see any search command.  Once again, help for a newby would be
appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark 

 

  _____  

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of derekhawkins
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 3:00 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Getting started in homebrew PCB's

 

>I'm going to ask a question that is so broad that it is almost 
>unanswerable

That and just about any question you have is probably answered already 
either in these archives or Usenet's. Brush up on your archive 
searching skills. Example, Google the following;

>"drill bits" pcb carbide steel<

Happy hunting.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Mickelsen" 
<mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:
>







Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 




SPONSORED LINKS 


Electrical
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Electrical+engineering+degree+online&w1
=Electrical+engineering+degree+online&w2=Electrical+engineering+degree&w3=Pr
inted+circuit+board&w4=Electrical+engineering&w5=Electrical+engineering+cour
se&w6=Electrical+engineering+graduate+school&c=6&s=211&.sig=j8BDcUZHaUFXRiTd
GW1cNQ>  engineering degree online 

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<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Electrical+engineering+degree&w1=Electr
ical+engineering+degree+online&w2=Electrical+engineering+degree&w3=Printed+c
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lectrical+engineering+graduate+school&c=6&s=211&.sig=1hRjimUH1bArkHkhwLHsKQ>
engineering degree 

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<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Printed+circuit+board&w1=Electrical+eng
ineering+degree+online&w2=Electrical+engineering+degree&w3=Printed+circuit+b
oard&w4=Electrical+engineering&w5=Electrical+engineering+course&w6=Electrica
l+engineering+graduate+school&c=6&s=211&.sig=w-9RSkp3c_F5z9sFsIUKCg>
circuit board 


Electrical
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gineering+degree+online&w2=Electrical+engineering+degree&w3=Printed+circuit+
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al+engineering+graduate+school&c=6&s=211&.sig=kdeBl4DzkdrbwYZnXCp4qA>
engineering 

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<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Electrical+engineering+course&w1=Electr
ical+engineering+degree+online&w2=Electrical+engineering+degree&w3=Printed+c
ircuit+board&w4=Electrical+engineering&w5=Electrical+engineering+course&w6=E
lectrical+engineering+graduate+school&c=6&s=211&.sig=b2N2CgZCtQayHKIbuMnSbw>
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w1=Electrical+engineering+degree+online&w2=Electrical+engineering+degree&w3=
Printed+circuit+board&w4=Electrical+engineering&w5=Electrical+engineering+co
urse&w6=Electrical+engineering+graduate+school&c=6&s=211&.sig=4vee4qVM4QxoRd
I6upxwMg>  engineering graduate school 

 

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YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 

 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing" 
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> I just remembered I had a leftover ink cartridge from my CX5400.  It 
> does not appear to be durabrite either :-(  I wouldn't have minded 
> opening that cartridge up and using the INK directly for some 
> testing and such.  
> 
> 
> 

This is Durabrite ink. It will not say Durabrite on the cartridge, 
only on the box that it comes in. The CX5400 takes Regular Durabrite 
ink, while the new printers the C88 and CX4800 both take Durabrite 
Ultra inks, which are even /more/ waterproof and stickier than 
Regular (and also clog up the printer twice as fast).

C-series printers won't do CD printing though and thus lack a 
straight through path (the path on the R printers is only about 4.5" 
wide, not full sheet). I always found this irritating, because while 
the R-series do nice photos, they are not waterproof, so if you print 
your own CDs and DVDs, you can't have damp fingers or you'll ruin the 
printed surface. I'd prefer having Durabrite for printing on CDs and 
have the photo R-series without the feature.

Anyone have any idea where we can get thin PCB like this?

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Volkan
Envoyé : avril 13 2006 03:41
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Epson inkjet results


...
I have used very thin PCB, 100um overall thickness (it is not possible to
insert 1.6mm to the printer)
...

Volkan

I had a little nose around and it seems that:

The C84 Photo prints on CDs AND uses Durabrite Ink in standard and
high capacity cartridges as well as there being a Continuous feed
available for it. (it is possible other C series printers do also, but
i gave up after a while as it is quite hard to find that information)

I don't have one, so i don't knw how wide the path is, but since they
are available second hand for just a few $ (or in my case £) I may get
one and have a looksee

If we can get this process repeatable on easy to get equipment, it
will revolutionise home pcb making.

As it happens, I design all my board to fit on 115mm board as it is
the cheapest way to buy it, so a limitation in width is not an issue
for me.

Chris  (-=Spiyda=-)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:

> C-series printers won't do CD printing though and thus lack a 
> straight through path (the path on the R printers is only about 4.5" 
> wide, not full sheet). I always found this irritating, because while 
> the R-series do nice photos, they are not waterproof, so if you print 
> your own CDs and DVDs, you can't have damp fingers or you'll ruin the 
> printed surface. I'd prefer having Durabrite for printing on CDs and 
> have the photo R-series without the feature.
>

the older stylus photo 900p (925?) takes an a4 cd tray in from the
rear, but I dont know what ink is supplied by epson, but cheap
cartridges could be refilled if the head would be ok with it.

Its a 5 colour+ black, uses t007 and t009 like the 1270 / 1290

After looking further into this, it seems that the C84 can NOT print
to CD..

it seems that the press release I read was erroneous !

However i found this link as to how to modify printer paper paths
which might be interesting

http://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/177053.php

Chris  (-=Spiyda=-)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@...> wrote:

>
> I had a little nose around and it seems that:
> 
> The C84 Photo prints on CDs AND uses Durabrite Ink in standard and
> high capacity cartridges as well as there being a Continuous feed
> available for it. (it is possible other C series printers do also, but
> i gave up after a while as it is quite hard to find that information)
> 
> I don't have one, so i don't knw how wide the path is, but since they
> are available second hand for just a few $ (or in my case £) I may get
> one and have a looksee
> 
> If we can get this process repeatable on easy to get equipment, it
> will revolutionise home pcb making.
> 
> As it happens, I design all my board to fit on 115mm board as it is
> the cheapest way to buy it, so a limitation in width is not an issue
> for me.
> 
> Chris  (-=Spiyda=-)
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@> wrote:
> 
> > C-series printers won't do CD printing though and thus lack a 
> > straight through path (the path on the R printers is only about 4.5" 
> > wide, not full sheet). I always found this irritating, because while 
> > the R-series do nice photos, they are not waterproof, so if you print 
> > your own CDs and DVDs, you can't have damp fingers or you'll ruin the 
> > printed surface. I'd prefer having Durabrite for printing on CDs and 
> > have the photo R-series without the feature.
> >
>

Hi Robert,

On 4/14/06, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
> Anyone have any idea where we can get thin PCB like this?

For even thinner, you can get copper clad kapton (i.e. flexible
circuit boards). I bought some on eBay, but haven't used them yet.

Total thickness of two layers of copper plus kapton is less than 0.010"

I've also purchased some flexible boards (also on eBay) which are
similar to the ones Volkan mentioned.

Set up a search using terms like copper clad, and you'll get an email
everytime new stuff is available.

--
Dave Hylands
Vancouver, BC, Canada
http://www.DaveHylands.com/

--- Mark Mickelsen <mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:

> Once I know how to do a search, my search skills are pretty good.  I joined
> the Homebrew_PCBs_Archives but I can't see any way to search them.  Am I
> blind or just stupid?  If I can get an "in" I can probably find what I need,
> but I don't see any search command.  Once again, help for a newby would be
> appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Mark 

look here:

http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/pcbproto.htm
http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm

and then search for discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/messages

good start!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Robert Hedan" <robert.hedan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 1:00 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson inkjet results


Anyone have any idea where we can get thin PCB like this?


It's the stuff used for making multilayer boards. You should be able to 
scrounge plenty of offcuts if you have a PCB manufacturer near you and it 
probably turns up on Ebay from time to time.

Leon 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

In order to get this moving, if you have a Epson printer that is 
currently using the Durabrite ink, I'll donate a few sheets of the 
thin pcb material for trials.

Email me with your shipping address and printer model and I'll mail 
you a sheet.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

Regarding PCB material, I can supply 9"x12" sheets as follows:
DoubleSided 0.8mm with 35µ(1oz)copper
DoubleSided 0.5mm with 35µ(1oz) or 18µ(1/2oz)copper
DoubleSided 0.35mm with 35µ(1oz) or 18µ(1/2oz)

I can offer 'padded' envelopes including postage with 10 sheets of 
your choice for $90 world-wide if I get at least 10 orders or more.
Payments via PayPal only.

How many are interested?

Cheers
Bengt

$9 a sheet!

The last time I bought the thin pcb it was  20 - 5" x
10" sheets for $20.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

--- Bengt <cnc@...> wrote:

> Regarding PCB material, I can supply 9"x12" sheets
> as follows:
> DoubleSided 0.8mm with 35\ufffd(1oz)copper
> DoubleSided 0.5mm with 35\ufffd(1oz) or 18\ufffd(1/2oz)copper
> DoubleSided 0.35mm with 35\ufffd(1oz) or 18\ufffd(1/2oz)
> 
> I can offer 'padded' envelopes including postage
> with 10 sheets of 
> your choice for $90 world-wide if I get at least 10
> orders or more.
> Payments via PayPal only.
> 
> How many are interested?
> 
> Cheers
> Bengt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi folks,

I've been in communication with 2 sellers on EBay.


SELLER #1: 6"x10" double-sided 0.010"

-  6 sheets  (360 sq. ") $10.00
- 15 sheets  (900 sq. ") $22.00
- 25 sheets (1500 sq. ") $35.00

Postage in the USA is about $18.65 USPS Priority Mail (up to 50 sheet
limit).  Sheets are shipped between 2 thicker PCBs, so you get 2 freebies.
He has about 300 sheets on hand right now.

Purchases can be done through EBay or directly, it's up to you.  I checked
one of his current auctions and he accepts PayPal, Visa, MasterCard, Amex,
money orders and cashiers cheques (credit cards are processed through
PayPal).  Expect normal verification delays when dealing with money orders
and cashiers cheques.  He also ships worldwide, so no problem for you
Stefan.  :D

It's a bit more expensive that what Myc has found in the past, but this is
the best I've found on EBay.  You can probably haggle elsewhere and save a
couple more pennies, but this supplier has been most patient through a TON
of emails from me.  Out of 1198 transactions with 345 buyers, he has
negative feedback from only 1 buyer.  Crap, his rating is 99.7%, that's
better than mine which sits at 98.3%.


SELLER #2: 5"x9" single-sided 0.0062" <-- not a typo!

- 25 sheets for $19.99 with $4.00 shipping.

100% rating from 1882 transactions, he prefers dealing through EBay, he also
ships worldwide and the same payment methods as the 1st seller.


If I made a mistake in the details, I'm sorry, the sellers have last word.
I've seen so many auctions today that I might have gotten some stuff
backwards, wouldn't be the first.

More to come...

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Mycroft2152 Envoyé : avril 15 2006 15:24 À :
Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson inkjet
results


$9 a sheet!

The last time I bought the thin pcb it was  20 - 5" x
10" sheets for $20.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

I'm interested Bengt.
Bill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bengt" <cnc@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 3:20 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] RE : Epson inkjet results


Regarding PCB material, I can supply 9"x12" sheets as follows:
DoubleSided 0.8mm with 35\ufffd(1oz)copper
DoubleSided 0.5mm with 35\ufffd(1oz) or 18\ufffd(1/2oz)copper
DoubleSided 0.35mm with 35\ufffd(1oz) or 18\ufffd(1/2oz)

I can offer 'padded' envelopes including postage with 10 sheets of
your choice for $90 world-wide if I get at least 10 orders or more.
Payments via PayPal only.

How many are interested?

Cheers
Bengt






Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:
>
> What about this one?  It's inkjet, not bubblejet:
> LEXMARK Z515 COLOR INKJET DIGITAL PHOTO PRINTER 
> 

They are all inkjet. That is bubblejet.

Steve Greenfield

Hi,

 

I'm designing my first PCB's.  I've decided to use the toner transfer
method.  It sounds like the safest route to go for a first timer.  I'll be
using my Samsung ML-2010 laser printer and Staples photo basic gloss paper.
I'm pretty well stuck with the printer, but if there is a better kind of
paper to use I would love to hear about it.

 

But, of course, before I get to that point, I have to have a design to
print.  I'm using WinQcad to lay out a little circuit that I already know
works (might as well have as few variables as possible).  The circuit uses a
couple of components for which there aren't packages in the basic library,
so I have to create them.  I wish there were a step by step list of things
that you have to do to create a package so I don't miss anything, but there
doesn't appear to be so I'll just muddle through.  But I find myself up
against some very basic questions that can only be answered by experience so
I decided to ask them here to see if someone would help.  I would like my
board to be as producible a possible for my first time, but also as easy to
lay out a possible.  By that I mean having room to run traces wherever I
want.  The first question is: how wide should the annular ring around the
hole for a component pin be?  How wide should a trace be? Is there such a
thing as a standard pad size?  I'm sure I'll have others as I go along.  Is
there a place that has some standards listed that people have come up with
over the years?  Perhaps some search keys or websites to look at.anything
would be appreciated.

 

Later I know I'll be asking peoples' opinions on the best etchant to use.

 

Thanks,

Mark 

  _____  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]