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2014-11-18 by David Kellett
Hi, I'm wondering how to do two things. 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
2014-11-18 by Neil Kagan
The closest to the second but would be the A-156 as when it quantizes it outputs a trigger. I'm not sure about the first part; what is causing the changing rate of the cv? Sent from my iPhone
> On 18 Nov 2014, at 07:38, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm wondering how to do two things. > 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV > 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. > > Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, > > David > > www.movingisliving.co.uk > > Sent from my iPhone > >
2014-11-18 by PW
Pretty sure this will get you gates every time cv changes: http://www.modulargrid.net/e/elby-designs-cgs762-slope-detector Or just take the clock/gate from whatever is controlling the cv before the uScale. If it's already stepped that is. Sent from my iPad
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:07 AM, Neil Kagan blinkenlicht@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > The closest to the second but would be the A-156 as when it quantizes it outputs a trigger. > > I'm not sure about the first part; what is causing the changing rate of the cv? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 18 Nov 2014, at 07:38, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm wondering how to do two things. >> 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV >> 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. >> >> Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, >> >> David >> >> www.movingisliving.co.uk >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > >
2014-11-18 by yahoo@doepfer.de
> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. November 2014 08:39
> An: doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Rate of change to CV and Cv change to gate
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm wondering how to do two things.
> 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV
> 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel
> uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate.
>
> Hoping there is maybe a simple solution,
>
> David
This function was called earlier "new pitch detector". If I remember correctly such a module was available for the FORMANT
synthesizer. So far nobody was asking for such a function. It's not very difficult if you have some experience with electronics:
nothing but a differentiator (i.e. a capacitor/resistor with buffer, nothing but the "simple high pass" shown on the A-100 DIY
page). One may add a full wave rectifier if both (positive and negative CV changes) should generate a positive voltage (otherwise
the output of the differentiator generates a negative voltage for negative CV changes). To derive a gate a comparator with
adjustable threshold ("sensitivity") has to be added (e.g. A-167).
Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer2014-11-18 by David Kellett
I bought the uScale rather than the A156 because of its flexibility interns of scales and non scales from chromatic notes - so don't really want an A156. The CV could be - for instance a Theremin where the cv goes out to a quantiser then through a slew / Portamento then to oscillator. The rate of change of the theremin output would control the rate of slew. Hope that makes sense. David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
> On 18 Nov 2014, at 08:07, Neil Kagan blinkenlicht@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > The closest to the second but would be the A-156 as when it quantizes it outputs a trigger. > > I'm not sure about the first part; what is causing the changing rate of the cv? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 18 Nov 2014, at 07:38, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm wondering how to do two things. >> 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV >> 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. >> >> Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, >> >> David >> >> www.movingisliving.co.uk >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > >
2014-11-18 by David Kellett
Yes the Elby would work. Thanks for pointing me at it. That would solve the Gate part. David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
> On 18 Nov 2014, at 08:55, PW pulsewidth2@hotmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Pretty sure this will get you gates every time cv changes: > > http://www.modulargrid.net/e/elby-designs-cgs762-slope-detector > > Or just take the clock/gate from whatever is controlling the cv before the uScale. If it's already stepped that is. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:07 AM, Neil Kagan blinkenlicht@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> The closest to the second but would be the A-156 as when it quantizes it outputs a trigger. >> >> I'm not sure about the first part; what is causing the changing rate of the cv? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 07:38, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm wondering how to do two things. >>> 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV >>> 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. >>> >>> Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, >>> >>> David >>> >>> www.movingisliving.co.uk >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> > >
2014-11-18 by David Kellett
Thanks for that info Dieter. Unfortunately my electronics skills are no existent!! I would have to get someone else to build it for me :-) David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
> On 18 Nov 2014, at 09:05, yahoo@doepfer.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. November 2014 08:39
> > An: doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Rate of change to CV and Cv change to gate
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm wondering how to do two things.
> > 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV
> > 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel
> > uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate.
> >
> > Hoping there is maybe a simple solution,
> >
> > David
>
> This function was called earlier "new pitch detector". If I remember correctly such a module was available for the FORMANT
> synthesizer. So far nobody was asking for such a function. It's not very difficult if you have some experience with electronics:
> nothing but a differentiator (i.e. a capacitor/resistor with buffer, nothing but the "simple high pass" shown on the A-100 DIY
> page). One may add a full wave rectifier if both (positive and negative CV changes) should generate a positive voltage (otherwise
> the output of the differentiator generates a negative voltage for negative CV changes). To derive a gate a comparator with
> adjustable threshold ("sensitivity") has to be added (e.g. A-167).
>
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>
>2014-11-18 by florian anwander
Hello David Am 18.11.2014 08:38, schrieb David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com > 1) To create a CV based > (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV > 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. You've got several examples to solve the part #2 of your request; I call it the change-to-trigger-converter, abbreviated CTC. As soon you have this function, you will be able to create the rate-to-CV function: You may do this on either on analogue level or with the help of methods know from an A/D- an D/A-converters respectively. The analogue method requires, that a change in the CV creates a trigger pulse, which has always the same length and voltage: load a capacitor with this pulses, unload the capacitor over a fixed resistor, and pick the resulting voltage with a buffer. The more often a pulse arrives at the capacitor, the higher will be the voltage at the capacitor. The disadvantage of this method is, that the voltage will always start to drop, until the next trigger comes in. The digital method is: have a clock running a digital counter, that counts up. The trigger from CTC stores the value of the counter in a latch, and resets the counter. The value of the latch is D/A-converted into a voltage. Unfortunately you need a lot of modules for this: one LFO as clock one A160/161 as counter three A-148 as latches two A-138a Mixers as simple D/A. This will be a 6Bit version. Florian @Dieter: do you pay commission if I recommend module-consuming patches? ;-)
2014-11-18 by David Kellett
I sort of follow that (I think) but I'm not sure how the LFO as clock works in this - I don't want a regular gate but a gate that occurred only with a change of CV. So imagine that an LFO signal (possible modulated so it is not quite regular) goes into a quantiser (not A156!) and the quantiser puts out stepped voltages - I want a gate when the stepped voltage changes. (The reason NOT the A156 is that the uScale gives greater choice over what notes I'm quantising to) Maybe I've misunderstood the use of the LFO clock in your patch? David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
> On 18 Nov 2014, at 10:25, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Hello David > > Am 18.11.2014 08:38, schrieb David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com > > 1) To create a CV based > > (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV > > > 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. > > You've got several examples to solve the part #2 of your request; I call > it the change-to-trigger-converter, abbreviated CTC. As soon you have > this function, you will be able to create the rate-to-CV function: > > You may do this on either on analogue level or with the help of methods > know from an A/D- an D/A-converters respectively. > > The analogue method requires, that a change in the CV creates a trigger > pulse, which has always the same length and voltage: load a capacitor > with this pulses, unload the capacitor over a fixed resistor, and pick > the resulting voltage with a buffer. The more often a pulse arrives at > the capacitor, the higher will be the voltage at the capacitor. > The disadvantage of this method is, that the voltage will always start > to drop, until the next trigger comes in. > > The digital method is: have a clock running a digital counter, that > counts up. The trigger from CTC stores the value of the counter in a > latch, and resets the counter. The value of the latch is D/A-converted > into a voltage. > Unfortunately you need a lot of modules for this: > one LFO as clock > one A160/161 as counter > three A-148 as latches > two A-138a Mixers as simple D/A. > > This will be a 6Bit version. > > Florian > > @Dieter: do you pay commission if I recommend module-consuming patches? ;-) > >
2014-11-18 by florian anwander
Hello David, Am 18.11.2014 14:18, schrieb David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]: > Maybe I've misunderstood the use of the LFO clock in your patch? yes, you misunderstood: I do not describe the circuit, that creates a gate at a CV change. I assume, that this circuit already exists (the others made suggestions already - let it be any quantizer). I describe the circuit, that converts the rate of these gates into a control voltage. Basically this is a frequency to voltage converter. Lets get back to your original mail. You have two requests: > 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of > change of another CV > 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is > particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel > uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a > gate. You defined the problems in the wrong order. The correct order is: First you have to create a trigger at each change of the incoming CV. This is what the quantizers can do. Now that you have these triggers, you can count the time between two triggers coming from the quantizers and convert the digital value (which corrsponds to the time) into a CV. Florian PS: I still did a small mistake in my description: the resulting voltage will be the higher the slower the triggers do repeat. To get a real F->V conversion you have to invert the voltage and then add an offset voltage to the inverted CV. But all that is theory. Usually one would not build that with separate modules, but would implement it in a single (diy-)module. The you can avoid also the inversion thing.
2014-11-18 by Nathan Cearley
I sort of follow that (I think) but I'm not sure how the LFO as clock works in this - I don't want a regular gate but a gate that occurred only with a change of CV. So imagine that an LFO signal (possible modulated so it is not quite regular) goes into a quantiser (not A156!) and the quantiser puts out stepped voltages - I want a gate when the stepped voltage changes. (The reason NOT the A156 is that the uScale gives greater choice over what notes I'm quantising to)Maybe I've misunderstood the use of the LFO clock in your patch?
On 18 Nov 2014, at 10:25, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Hello David
Am 18.11.2014 08:38, schrieb David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com
> 1) To create a CV based
> (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV
> 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV.
You've got several examples to solve the part #2 of your request; I call
it the change-to-trigger-converter, abbreviated CTC. As soon you have
this function, you will be able to create the rate-to-CV function:
You may do this on either on analogue level or with the help of methods
know from an A/D- an D/A-converters respectively.
The analogue method requires, that a change in the CV creates a trigger
pulse, which has always the same length and voltage: load a capacitor
with this pulses, unload the capacitor over a fixed resistor, and pick
the resulting voltage with a buffer. The more often a pulse arrives at
the capacitor, the higher will be the voltage at the capacitor.
The disadvantage of this method is, that the voltage will always start
to drop, until the next trigger comes in.
The digital method is: have a clock running a digital counter, that
counts up. The trigger from CTC stores the value of the counter in a
latch, and resets the counter. The value of the latch is D/A-converted
into a voltage.
Unfortunately you need a lot of modules for this:
one LFO as clock
one A160/161 as counter
three A-148 as latches
two A-138a Mixers as simple D/A.
This will be a 6Bit version.
Florian
@Dieter: do you pay commission if I recommend module-consuming patches? ;-)
2014-11-18 by PW
Oh another one I just thought of. I believe the amazing Toppobrillo Sport Modulator can function as a slope detector with gate out. Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Nathan Cearley nathancearley@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > it matters what your cv source is. you may have to change it to a source that has gates out in addition to the cv out (like a sequencer with cv and gate out). or try and find a random voltage source that has both cv and gate out. or, get a doepfer quantizer and run the cv source into both the uscale and it but only use the gate out of the doepfer. > > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 8:18 AM, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> I sort of follow that (I think) but I'm not sure how the LFO as clock works in this - I don't want a regular gate but a gate that occurred only with a change of CV. So imagine that an LFO signal (possible modulated so it is not quite regular) goes into a quantiser (not A156!) and the quantiser puts out stepped voltages - I want a gate when the stepped voltage changes. (The reason NOT the A156 is that the uScale gives greater choice over what notes I'm quantising to) >> >> Maybe I've misunderstood the use of the LFO clock in your patch? >> >> David >> >> www.movingisliving.co.uk >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 10:25, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello David >>> >>> Am 18.11.2014 08:38, schrieb David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com >>> > 1) To create a CV based >>> > (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV >>> >>> > 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. >>> >>> You've got several examples to solve the part #2 of your request; I call >>> it the change-to-trigger-converter, abbreviated CTC. As soon you have >>> this function, you will be able to create the rate-to-CV function: >>> >>> You may do this on either on analogue level or with the help of methods >>> know from an A/D- an D/A-converters respectively. >>> >>> The analogue method requires, that a change in the CV creates a trigger >>> pulse, which has always the same length and voltage: load a capacitor >>> with this pulses, unload the capacitor over a fixed resistor, and pick >>> the resulting voltage with a buffer. The more often a pulse arrives at >>> the capacitor, the higher will be the voltage at the capacitor. >>> The disadvantage of this method is, that the voltage will always start >>> to drop, until the next trigger comes in. >>> >>> The digital method is: have a clock running a digital counter, that >>> counts up. The trigger from CTC stores the value of the counter in a >>> latch, and resets the counter. The value of the latch is D/A-converted >>> into a voltage. >>> Unfortunately you need a lot of modules for this: >>> one LFO as clock >>> one A160/161 as counter >>> three A-148 as latches >>> two A-138a Mixers as simple D/A. >>> >>> This will be a 6Bit version. >>> >>> Florian >>> >>> @Dieter: do you pay commission if I recommend module-consuming patches? ;-) >>> >> > >
2014-11-18 by Nicholas Keller
Based on your description in this "clarifier", would a VC slew work? Like the A-171? Otherwise, and after reading the other messages in this thread, I still don't understand what you're trying to do. I thought perhaps Florian had seen through your description and realized you want a F->V convertor, but in your initial post you said you wanted a CV based on a CV. Maybe it is not clear as you did not specify whether the first CV is stepped or smooth Nick Sent from the future
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:07 AM, "David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > I bought the uScale rather than the A156 because of its flexibility interns of scales and non scales from chromatic notes - so don't really want an A156. > > The CV could be - for instance a Theremin where the cv goes out to a quantiser then through a slew / Portamento then to oscillator. The rate of change of the theremin output would control the rate of slew. Hope that makes sense. > > David > > www.movingisliving.co.uk > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 18 Nov 2014, at 08:07, Neil Kagan blinkenlicht@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> The closest to the second but would be the A-156 as when it quantizes it outputs a trigger. >> >> I'm not sure about the first part; what is causing the changing rate of the cv? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 07:38, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I'm wondering how to do two things. >>> 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV >>> 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. >>> >>> Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, >>> >>> David >>> >>> www.movingisliving.co.uk >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> > >
2014-11-18 by florian anwander
I also already thought about a feature, that David asked for (I even think I asked Dieter for it a long time ago). So it was not new to me. Let me explain it with an Example: Imagine Keith Emerson goes skating, falls over his own feet (he is better in playing minimoog than in skating) and he breaks his left hand. Right hand for the minimoog solo, but no hand to crank the filter up, the wilder he is playing. Damn! Here comes David with his idea into the game: he provides a control voltage that becomes the higher, the more notes Mr Emerson plays (something, Mr Emerson really likes to do); and will become lower as soon as Mr Emerson will play less notes (ok, I am not sure whether this will happen, but it won't be Davids fault). The idea is: have a voltage that carries the amount of musical expression. Florian Am 18.11.2014 16:17, schrieb Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100]:
> > > Based on your description in this "clarifier", would a VC slew work? > Like the A-171? > > Otherwise, and after reading the other messages in this thread, I still > don't understand what you're trying to do. I thought perhaps Florian had > seen through your description and realized you want a F->V convertor, > but in your initial post you said you wanted a CV based on a CV. Maybe > it is not clear as you did not specify whether the first CV is stepped > or smooth > > Nick
2014-11-18 by David Kellett
Yes a voltage control slew would be part of it - but the voltage control for the slew would be based on how fast the pitch changes. So imagine a Theremin - it's output goes to a quantiser which quantises to steps but the rate of change - a slide generated by the VC Slew acting on the quantised pitches - is dependent on how fast you move your hand from one (approximate) note position to another. So I move my hand fast, very little slew, I move my hand slow a longer slew. The generating gates is a separate issue for me. I would like to generate a gate signal when there is a step in a CV. So notes coming out of a quantiser produce a gate when there is a new note value. The A156 does this by itself but the uScale does not. The reason I'm using uScale(s) is the freedom of note selection - for instance a cluster from F to Bflat inclusive are "on" but notes B to E are off. With a random voltage source A149 the probability is you get more Fs and Bflats than the notes bounded by them as all B to E are quantised to F or Bflat but only the actual accurate notes in between are heard as themselves. Or pentatonic scales, or Kokin Joshi Scale (I have flutes in these odd scales!!) I could put an A156 after the uScale to get the gates but wondered if there was another way. But I'm still not quite clear how I would create a CV based on the rate of change of another CV David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
> On 18 Nov 2014, at 15:17, Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Based on your description in this "clarifier", would a VC slew work? Like the A-171? > > Otherwise, and after reading the other messages in this thread, I still don't understand what you're trying to do. I thought perhaps Florian had seen through your description and realized you want a F->V convertor, but in your initial post you said you wanted a CV based on a CV. Maybe it is not clear as you did not specify whether the first CV is stepped or smooth > > Nick > > Sent from the future > >> On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:07 AM, "David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> I bought the uScale rather than the A156 because of its flexibility interns of scales and non scales from chromatic notes - so don't really want an A156. >> >> The CV could be - for instance a Theremin where the cv goes out to a quantiser then through a slew / Portamento then to oscillator. The rate of change of the theremin output would control the rate of slew. Hope that makes sense. >> >> David >> >> www.movingisliving.co.uk >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 08:07, Neil Kagan blinkenlicht@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> The closest to the second but would be the A-156 as when it quantizes it outputs a trigger. >>> >>> I'm not sure about the first part; what is causing the changing rate of the cv? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 07:38, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I'm wondering how to do two things. >>>> 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV >>>> 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. >>>> >>>> Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> www.movingisliving.co.uk >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> > >
2014-11-18 by David Kellett
I like it Florian!!! A nice image!! Not quite the same as my Theremin idea - speed of hand generating a VC ie a VC based on the rate that the Theremin's VC output changes. David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
> On 18 Nov 2014, at 15:51, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > I also already thought about a feature, that David asked for (I even > think I asked Dieter for it a long time ago). So it was not new to me. > > Let me explain it with an Example: > > Imagine Keith Emerson goes skating, falls over his own feet (he is > better in playing minimoog than in skating) and he breaks his left hand. > Right hand for the minimoog solo, but no hand to crank the filter up, > the wilder he is playing. Damn! > Here comes David with his idea into the game: he provides a control > voltage that becomes the higher, the more notes Mr Emerson plays > (something, Mr Emerson really likes to do); and will become lower as > soon as Mr Emerson will play less notes (ok, I am not sure whether this > will happen, but it won't be Davids fault). > > The idea is: have a voltage that carries the amount of musical expression. > > Florian > > Am 18.11.2014 16:17, schrieb Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com > [Doepfer_a100]: > > > > > > Based on your description in this "clarifier", would a VC slew work? > > Like the A-171? > > > > Otherwise, and after reading the other messages in this thread, I still > > don't understand what you're trying to do. I thought perhaps Florian had > > seen through your description and realized you want a F->V convertor, > > but in your initial post you said you wanted a CV based on a CV. Maybe > > it is not clear as you did not specify whether the first CV is stepped > > or smooth > > > > Nick > >
2014-11-18 by Nicholas Keller
I see, I think. So say you want to play "honky-tonk" from C1 to C2. If you do it slow, you was slow slew....and if you do it fast, you want faster slew. I think most "players" would consider using a foot pedal to control the slew rate as they played, and most "sequecerers" would use an aux CV to automate the change. Might be best to look for someone to build you a digital module for this purpose if you really want a module to do the work, which I can totally understand. I might know a guy if Dieter isn't interested in developing such a device Nick Sent from the future
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 11:30 AM, "David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Yes a voltage control slew would be part of it - but the voltage control for the slew would be based on how fast the pitch changes. So imagine a Theremin - it's output goes to a quantiser which quantises to steps but the rate of change - a slide generated by the VC Slew acting on the quantised pitches - is dependent on how fast you move your hand from one (approximate) note position to another. So I move my hand fast, very little slew, I move my hand slow a longer slew. > > The generating gates is a separate issue for me. I would like to generate a gate signal when there is a step in a CV. So notes coming out of a quantiser produce a gate when there is a new note value. The A156 does this by itself but the uScale does not. The reason I'm using uScale(s) is the freedom of note selection - for instance a cluster from F to Bflat inclusive are "on" but notes B to E are off. With a random voltage source A149 the probability is you get more Fs and Bflats than the notes bounded by them as all B to E are quantised to F or Bflat but only the actual accurate notes in between are heard as themselves. Or pentatonic scales, or Kokin Joshi Scale (I have flutes in these odd scales!!) > > I could put an A156 after the uScale to get the gates but wondered if there was another way. But I'm still not quite clear how I would create a CV based on the rate of change of another CV > > David > > > www.movingisliving.co.uk > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 18 Nov 2014, at 15:17, Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> Based on your description in this "clarifier", would a VC slew work? Like the A-171? >> >> Otherwise, and after reading the other messages in this thread, I still don't understand what you're trying to do. I thought perhaps Florian had seen through your description and realized you want a F->V convertor, but in your initial post you said you wanted a CV based on a CV. Maybe it is not clear as you did not specify whether the first CV is stepped or smooth >> >> Nick >> >> Sent from the future >> >>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:07 AM, "David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I bought the uScale rather than the A156 because of its flexibility interns of scales and non scales from chromatic notes - so don't really want an A156. >>> >>> The CV could be - for instance a Theremin where the cv goes out to a quantiser then through a slew / Portamento then to oscillator. The rate of change of the theremin output would control the rate of slew. Hope that makes sense. >>> >>> David >>> >>> www.movingisliving.co.uk >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 08:07, Neil Kagan blinkenlicht@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The closest to the second but would be the A-156 as when it quantizes it outputs a trigger. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure about the first part; what is causing the changing rate of the cv? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 07:38, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering how to do two things. >>>>> 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV >>>>> 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. >>>>> >>>>> Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> www.movingisliving.co.uk >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> > >
2014-11-18 by Nicholas Keller
Yes, I like that idea as well. Could be applied to a ratcheting sequence also
> On Nov 18, 2014, at 11:33 AM, "David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > I like it Florian!!! A nice image!! Not quite the same as my Theremin idea - speed of hand generating a VC ie a VC based on the rate that the Theremin's VC output changes. > > David > > > > www.movingisliving.co.uk > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 18 Nov 2014, at 15:51, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> I also already thought about a feature, that David asked for (I even >> think I asked Dieter for it a long time ago). So it was not new to me. >> >> Let me explain it with an Example: >> >> Imagine Keith Emerson goes skating, falls over his own feet (he is >> better in playing minimoog than in skating) and he breaks his left hand. >> Right hand for the minimoog solo, but no hand to crank the filter up, >> the wilder he is playing. Damn! >> Here comes David with his idea into the game: he provides a control >> voltage that becomes the higher, the more notes Mr Emerson plays >> (something, Mr Emerson really likes to do); and will become lower as >> soon as Mr Emerson will play less notes (ok, I am not sure whether this >> will happen, but it won't be Davids fault). >> >> The idea is: have a voltage that carries the amount of musical expression. >> >> Florian >> >> Am 18.11.2014 16:17, schrieb Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com >> [Doepfer_a100]: >> > >> > >> > Based on your description in this "clarifier", would a VC slew work? >> > Like the A-171? >> > >> > Otherwise, and after reading the other messages in this thread, I still >> > don't understand what you're trying to do. I thought perhaps Florian had >> > seen through your description and realized you want a F->V convertor, >> > but in your initial post you said you wanted a CV based on a CV. Maybe >> > it is not clear as you did not specify whether the first CV is stepped >> > or smooth >> > >> > Nick > >
2014-11-18 by David Kellett
Thanks - I shall bear that in mind!! David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
> On 18 Nov 2014, at 16:47, Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > I see, I think. > > So say you want to play "honky-tonk" from C1 to C2. If you do it slow, you was slow slew....and if you do it fast, you want faster slew. I think most "players" would consider using a foot pedal to control the slew rate as they played, and most "sequecerers" would use an aux CV to automate the change. > > Might be best to look for someone to build you a digital module for this purpose if you really want a module to do the work, which I can totally understand. > > I might know a guy if Dieter isn't interested in developing such a device > > Nick > > Sent from the future > >> On Nov 18, 2014, at 11:30 AM, "David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> Yes a voltage control slew would be part of it - but the voltage control for the slew would be based on how fast the pitch changes. So imagine a Theremin - it's output goes to a quantiser which quantises to steps but the rate of change - a slide generated by the VC Slew acting on the quantised pitches - is dependent on how fast you move your hand from one (approximate) note position to another. So I move my hand fast, very little slew, I move my hand slow a longer slew. >> >> The generating gates is a separate issue for me. I would like to generate a gate signal when there is a step in a CV. So notes coming out of a quantiser produce a gate when there is a new note value. The A156 does this by itself but the uScale does not. The reason I'm using uScale(s) is the freedom of note selection - for instance a cluster from F to Bflat inclusive are "on" but notes B to E are off. With a random voltage source A149 the probability is you get more Fs and Bflats than the notes bounded by them as all B to E are quantised to F or Bflat but only the actual accurate notes in between are heard as themselves. Or pentatonic scales, or Kokin Joshi Scale (I have flutes in these odd scales!!) >> >> I could put an A156 after the uScale to get the gates but wondered if there was another way. But I'm still not quite clear how I would create a CV based on the rate of change of another CV >> >> David >> >> >> www.movingisliving.co.uk >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 15:17, Nicholas Keller maq163x2@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Based on your description in this "clarifier", would a VC slew work? Like the A-171? >>> >>> Otherwise, and after reading the other messages in this thread, I still don't understand what you're trying to do. I thought perhaps Florian had seen through your description and realized you want a F->V convertor, but in your initial post you said you wanted a CV based on a CV. Maybe it is not clear as you did not specify whether the first CV is stepped or smooth >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> Sent from the future >>> >>>> On Nov 18, 2014, at 4:07 AM, "David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I bought the uScale rather than the A156 because of its flexibility interns of scales and non scales from chromatic notes - so don't really want an A156. >>>> >>>> The CV could be - for instance a Theremin where the cv goes out to a quantiser then through a slew / Portamento then to oscillator. The rate of change of the theremin output would control the rate of slew. Hope that makes sense. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> www.movingisliving.co.uk >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 08:07, Neil Kagan blinkenlicht@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The closest to the second but would be the A-156 as when it quantizes it outputs a trigger. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure about the first part; what is causing the changing rate of the cv? >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On 18 Nov 2014, at 07:38, David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm wondering how to do two things. >>>>>> 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV >>>>>> 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, >>>>>> >>>>>> David >>>>>> >>>>>> www.movingisliving.co.uk >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> > >
2014-11-18 by florian anwander
Am 18.11.2014 17:30, schrieb David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]: > > > But I'm still not quite clear how I would create > a CV based on the rate of change of another CV > Thats where I jumped in: Getting a CV based the change amount of an incoming CV is very tricky (see below). While getting a CV based on the rate of incoming triggers (which is proportional to the amount of change of the CV) is quite easy and reliable. If you don't want to go the way via the triggers, then split the incoming CV in a multiple. One path goes into a slew limiter and then into a polarizing mixer; the other path goes straight into another channel of the polarizing mixer. Mix the original full positive, the slewed signal fully inverted. The output of the polarizing mixer will now send a voltage, that is the higher, the faster the input CV is rising. Unfortunaly it will be a negative voltage, if the input CV is falling. That is the point where it gets difficult. You have to send both signals also into a comparator, which will tell you whether the voltage is rising or falling with an logical signal. With that signal you can use a switch to add or bypass a inverter after the output of the polarizing mixer. Thats it.... :-/ And btw: this will not show a true value of the changge amount because the slew does not change linear. It would be better to have a CV-delay instead of a slew limiter.
2014-11-18 by David Kellett
Right - now I see!! But your right it would be quite hard to do!!! That is probably why I couldn't get my head round it and would like a Module to do the hard stuff for me!! David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
> On 18 Nov 2014, at 16:56, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Am 18.11.2014 17:30, schrieb David Kellett davidkellettwoulf@yahoo.com > [Doepfer_a100]: > > > > > > But I'm still not quite clear how I would create > > a CV based on the rate of change of another CV > > > Thats where I jumped in: Getting a CV based the change amount of an > incoming CV is very tricky (see below). > > While getting a CV based on the rate of incoming triggers (which is > proportional to the amount of change of the CV) is quite easy and reliable. > > If you don't want to go the way via the triggers, then split the > incoming CV in a multiple. One path goes into a slew limiter and then > into a polarizing mixer; the other path goes straight into another > channel of the polarizing mixer. Mix the original full positive, the > slewed signal fully inverted. The output of the polarizing mixer will > now send a voltage, that is the higher, the faster the input CV is > rising. Unfortunaly it will be a negative voltage, if the input CV is > falling. That is the point where it gets difficult. You have to send > both signals also into a comparator, which will tell you whether the > voltage is rising or falling with an logical signal. With that signal > you can use a switch to add or bypass a inverter after the output of the > polarizing mixer. Thats it.... :-/ > > And btw: this will not show a true value of the changge amount because > the slew does not change linear. It would be better to have a CV-delay > instead of a slew limiter. > >
2014-11-19 by yahoo@doepfer.de
> Hi, > > I'm wondering how to do two things. > 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV > 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel > uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. > > Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, > > David I couldn't stop thinking about a simple solution. Mathematically it's nothing but the derivation of the incoming CV. Electronically it's a differentiator or high pass. So I tried it last night: A 47nF capacitor and a 100k resistor (wired as the earlier mentioned high pass) does the job. As the CV output of the 47n/100k combo is a bit small (only in the 5-100mV range) the signal has to be amplified. I tried successfully a x50 amplifier, but probably an amplifier with adjustable gain would be a better solution to be able to adjust the sensitivity. The circuit generates an output voltage that is proportional to the change of the CV input: a quickly rising CV generates a high positive voltage, a slowly rising CV a small positive voltage. When the input CV does not change the output reads 0V. When the incoming CV falls the CV output becomes negative. To obtain trigger signals two comparators with adjustable thresholds for both rising/falling threshold can be added to generate 2 independent triggers for rising/falling detection (which could be or-wired too). Another idea would be to rectify the CV output and add only one comparator which then detects the CV changes in both directions. We could develop such a module provided that there are sufficient inquiries. As usual most of the time would probably take the front panel design (which sockets, controls, LEDs at which position). The electronics is quite simple. A total different approach is to generate a CV from the rate of trigger signals coming from the quantizer A-156. For this kind of a frequency to voltage generator has to be patched, e.g. an A-162 followed by a A-170 or A-171-2. The A-162 generates pulses with constant length which are integrated by a slew limiter (nothing but a 6dB low pass with very low frequency) to obtain a CV. If gate signals correlating with the original CV the quantizer is not necessary. In this case the gate signal is used directly to trigger the A-162. Best wishes Dieter Doepfer
2014-11-19 by florian anwander
Hello Dieter Am 19.11.2014 09:05, schrieb yahoo@doepfer.de [Doepfer_a100]: > When the incoming CV falls the CV output becomes negative This is the pitfall. The output voltage should be always unidirectional, no matter whether the incoming voltage is rising or falling. Take the examples that were given. 1. Davids theremin portamento example: The bigger a CV change within a given time is, the lower the slewrate of a VC-Slew should be (using an inverter for the CV). With your idea the slew rate would become higher with rising melodies and lower with falling melodies. 2. My "Keith Emerson" example: The more "excited" the played melody is, the more a filter should be become opened. With your idea the filter would be closed instead of beeing opened as soon as the melody is falling. Florian
2014-11-19 by David Kellett
Hi Dieter, I would definitely buy two or three such modules!! I think it would be very useful for making a quantised - easier to play! - Theremin sound more natural. And the same would go for the Ribbon Controller. I think there would be many other applications - even to help Keith Emerson with a Brocken hand :-) David www.movingisliving.co.uk Sent from my iPhone
> On 19 Nov 2014, at 08:05, yahoo@doepfer.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I'm wondering how to do two things. > > 1) To create a CV based (proportional to) on the rate of change of another CV > > 2) To create a gate when there is a step in a CV. This is particularly but not exclusively the output of a Intellijel > > uScale - so when there is a new pitch I would like to create a gate. > > > > Hoping there is maybe a simple solution, > > > > David > > I couldn't stop thinking about a simple solution. Mathematically it's nothing but the derivation of the incoming CV. Electronically > it's a differentiator or high pass. So I tried it last night: A 47nF capacitor and a 100k resistor (wired as the earlier mentioned > high pass) does the job. As the CV output of the 47n/100k combo is a bit small (only in the 5-100mV range) the signal has to be > amplified. I tried successfully a x50 amplifier, but probably an amplifier with adjustable gain would be a better solution to be > able to adjust the sensitivity. The circuit generates an output voltage that is proportional to the change of the CV input: a > quickly rising CV generates a high positive voltage, a slowly rising CV a small positive voltage. When the input CV does not change > the output reads 0V. When the incoming CV falls the CV output becomes negative. > > To obtain trigger signals two comparators with adjustable thresholds for both rising/falling threshold can be added to generate 2 > independent triggers for rising/falling detection (which could be or-wired too). Another idea would be to rectify the CV output and > add only one comparator which then detects the CV changes in both directions. We could develop such a module provided that there are > sufficient inquiries. As usual most of the time would probably take the front panel design (which sockets, controls, LEDs at which > position). The electronics is quite simple. > > A total different approach is to generate a CV from the rate of trigger signals coming from the quantizer A-156. For this kind of a > frequency to voltage generator has to be patched, e.g. an A-162 followed by a A-170 or A-171-2. The A-162 generates pulses with > constant length which are integrated by a slew limiter (nothing but a 6dB low pass with very low frequency) to obtain a CV. If gate > signals correlating with the original CV the quantizer is not necessary. In this case the gate signal is used directly to trigger > the A-162. > > Best wishes > Dieter Doepfer > >
2014-11-19 by florian anwander
Hello Dieter once again me... Am 19.11.2014 09:05, schrieb yahoo@doepfer.de [Doepfer_a100]: > A total different approach is to generate a CV from the rate of > trigger signals coming from the quantizer A-156. For this kind of a > frequency to voltage generator has to be patched, e.g. an A-162 > followed by a A-170 or A-171-2. The A-162 generates pulses with > constant length which are integrated by a slew limiter (nothing but a > 6dB low pass with very low frequency) to obtain a CV. This approach has the disadvantage that the voltage always will drop between two triggers. It will be like a sawtooth waveform; the lower the trigger rate is the more the voltage will look like a sawtooth. And the higher a change of rate is, the worse the slewlimiter will represent the change of rates. I think the counter based approach is more exact and it would not be that difficult to implement: simple CD4069 based clock oscillator, two stacked 4bit downcounters (4526) to create the 8bit value, and a resistor ladder D/A converter using buffers from the same 4069 as the clock oscillator, a TL062 as buffer, some resistors/caps around. Florian
2014-11-19 by yahoo@doepfer.de
Hello Florian, > > When the incoming CV falls the CV output becomes negative > This is the pitfall. The output voltage should be always unidirectional, > no matter whether the incoming voltage is rising or falling. For this I mentioned the rectifier version. Best wishes Dieter
2014-11-19 by yahoo@doepfer.de
Hi Florian, > This approach has the disadvantage that the voltage always will drop > between two triggers. It will be like a sawtooth waveform; the lower the > trigger rate is the more the voltage will look like a sawtooth. And the > higher a change of rate is, the worse the slewlimiter will represent the > change of rates. That's correct. One has to find a compromise between slew time and ripple of the output voltage. > I think the counter based approach is more exact and it > would not be that difficult to implement: simple CD4069 based clock > oscillator, two stacked 4bit downcounters (4526) to create the 8bit > value, and a resistor ladder D/A converter using buffers from the same > 4069 as the clock oscillator, a TL062 as buffer, some resistors/caps around. I agree. But this requires a lot of DIY experience. The version with A-162 and A-170 could be realized with existing modules. Best wishes Dieter
2014-11-19 by achtung_999
Hi Florian,
> This approach has the disadvantage that the voltage always will drop
> between two triggers. It will be like a sawtooth waveform; the lower the
> trigger rate is the more the voltage will look like a sawtooth. And the
> higher a change of rate is, the worse the slewlimiter will represent the
> change of rates.
That's correct. One has to find a compromise between slew time and ripple of the output voltage.
> I think the counter based approach is more exact and it
> would not be that difficult to implement: simple CD4069 based clock
> oscillator, two stacked 4bit downcounters (4526) to create the 8bit
> value, and a resistor ladder D/A converter using buffers from the same
> 4069 as the clock oscillator, a TL062 as buffer, some resistors/caps around.
I agree. But this requires a lot of DIY experience. The version with A-162 and A-170 could be realized with existing modules.
Best wishes
Dieter