Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

2011-10-13 by ienni23

hi all!
just curious about possibly anomalous behavior i've noticed... in addition to my A100 rig, i also have another separate keyboard setup that includes a "micro-modular" system based on a Dark Time/Energy combo expanded with 2 mini-cases of modules, including 2 A110 oscillators (more portable than the 5 G6 racks ^_^ ). I have the Time controlling the Energy over MIDI, with the CV1 output of the Energy controlling the 110s. the problem is the tuning on the 110s is offset from the tuning on the Energy: with the Energy's VCO tuning knob at 12 o'clock (which is in tune with MIDI, i.e. root key is "C"), the 2 110s have to have their tuning pots turned almost fully clockwise to be in unison tune with the Energy. this is a consistent offset even when i change control to all 3 running from the CV out of the Time instead of the MIDI control (Time->CV->Energy & 110s instead of Time->MIDI->Energy->CV->110s), though that adds the additional separate phenomenon that root pitch on the Time is also off: i.e. root "C" is when the Time's knobs are at approximately 12 o'clock instead of full counter-clockwise as when i use MIDI (again this is a completely separate issue from the 110 tuning offset phenomenon - this also makes MIDI key control into the Time offset as well, i.e. i hit a "C" on the MIDI keyboard and the Time outputs CV for a lower "F#" or so). note: when the 110s were part of the big A100 their tuning consistency was fine (12 o'clock=unison), so it's not the 110's fault.
maybe the CV out calibration on the Energy is a little off? and maybe the Time also?
just curious if anyone else has noticed such behavior, or if it's isolated to my particular units.
i hope i made all that as clear as possible :-) as i said it's a couple totally separate issues:
1) tuning offset between Energy & 110s
2) tuning offset difference between Time MIDI out vs. Time CV out)
that then interact to create a compounded dysfunction. thanks in advance for any comments or advice.
Be Seeing You!
--chris

AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

2011-10-13 by yahoo@doepfer.de

> hi all!
> just curious about possibly anomalous behavior i've noticed... in
> addition to my A100 rig, i also have another separate keyboard
> setup that includes a "micro-modular" system based on a Dark
> Time/Energy combo expanded with 2 mini-cases of modules,
> including 2 A110 oscillators (more portable than the 5 G6 racks
> ^_^ ). I have the Time controlling the Energy over MIDI, with the
> CV1 output of the Energy controlling the 110s. the problem is the
> tuning on the 110s is offset from the tuning on the Energy: with
> the Energy's VCO tuning knob at 12 o'clock (which is in tune with
> MIDI, i.e. root key is "C"), the 2 110s have to have their tuning
> pots turned almost fully clockwise to be in unison tune with the
> Energy. this is a consistent offset even when i change control to
> all 3 running from the CV out of the Time instead of the MIDI
> control (Time->CV->Energy & 110s instead of
> Time->MIDI->Energy->CV->110s), though that adds the additional
> separate phenomenon that root pitch on the Time is also off: i.e.
> root "C" is when the Time's knobs are at approximately 12 o'clock
> instead of full counter-clockwise as when i use MIDI (again this
> is a completely separate issue from the 110 tuning offset
> phenomenon - this also makes MIDI key control into the Time
> offset as well, i.e. i hit a "C" on the MIDI keyboard and the
> Time outputs CV for a lower "F#" or so). note: when the 110s were
> part of the big A100 their tuning consistency was fine (12
> o'clock=unison), so it's not the 110's fault.
> maybe the CV out calibration on the Energy is a little off? and
> maybe the Time also?
> just curious if anyone else has noticed such behavior, or if it's
> isolated to my particular units.
> i hope i made all that as clear as possible :-) as i said it's a
> couple totally separate issues:
> 1) tuning offset between Energy & 110s
> 2) tuning offset difference between Time MIDI out vs. Time CV out)
> that then interact to create a compounded dysfunction. thanks in
> advance for any comments or advice.
> Be Seeing You!
> --chris

The problem is probably caused by the simple power supply used in the A-100
miniature cases. The standard power supplies of the "big" cases is adjusted
to exactly +/- 12.00V. The power supply built into the A-100 miniature cases
uses simple voltage regulators (7812, 7912) that cannot be adjusted and have
some tolerances (typ. +/- 11.5 ... 12.5V). As the absolute pitch of the
A-110 is affected by the supply voltage this is probably the reason why the
tuning of the A-110 is a bit off the Dark Energy. If you own an A-100
standard case (A-100G6, A-100P6/P9, A-100LC6/LC9 or any monster case) you
may try this out. I'd expect that the A-110 is in tune with the Dark Energy
when it's powered by one of these cases.

But there is a simple solution: adjust the trimming potentiometer P6 (VCO
offset) on the A-110 board so that the A-110 is in tune with the Dark Energy
VCO (i.e. with the manual frequency controls at the front panels of both
units in center position). Details on our website:

www.doepfer.com > PRODUCTS > A-100 > Module Overview > A-110 > service
manual

If you only touch P6 nothing can go wrong. But do not change the position of
any other trimming potentiometer.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Re: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

2011-10-13 by christian ienni

Ah! Enlightenment. ^_^

Seriously, though, many thanks! after i sent the email it did occur to me that it probably had something to do with power supplies. since those 2 110s are dedicated to the Energy i will definitely make the adjustment you describe. (and sometime i will try connecting the Energy to the big A100 just to see, though i have a feeling you're absolutely right about it.)

any thoughts about the other issue: the difference in the tuning between using the Time's MIDI vs. CV outputs? it's not a big deal (it doesn't affect the usability at all for me), i'm just curious if it's intentional or a glitch. (maybe this is a question for Christian Assal?)


Again, stupendous thanks!

--chris


(ps- total non sequitor, but thanks for turning me on to GusGus! "Over" is now stuck in my brain, and i just purchased "Arabian Horse" and recorded the audio from the live perfromances on youtube. beautiful and minimalist - love it!! and Earth... wow! ^_^ )



________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "yahoo@doepfer.de" <yahoo@doepfer.de>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:31 AM
Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

> hi all!
> just curious about possibly anomalous behavior i've noticed... in
> addition to my A100 rig, i also have another separate keyboard
> setup that includes a "micro-modular" system based on a Dark
> Time/Energy combo expanded with 2 mini-cases of modules,
> including 2 A110 oscillators (more portable than the 5 G6 racks
> ^_^ ). I have the Time controlling the Energy over MIDI, with the
> CV1 output of the Energy controlling the 110s. the problem is the
> tuning on the 110s is offset from the tuning on the Energy: with
> the Energy's VCO tuning knob at 12 o'clock (which is in tune with
> MIDI, i.e. root key is "C"), the 2 110s have to have their tuning
> pots turned almost fully clockwise to be in unison tune with the
> Energy. this is a consistent offset even when i change control to
> all 3 running from the CV out of the Time instead of the MIDI
> control (Time->CV->Energy & 110s instead of
> Time->MIDI->Energy->CV->110s), though that adds the additional
> separate phenomenon that root pitch on the Time is also off: i.e.
> root "C" is when the Time's knobs are at approximately 12 o'clock
> instead of full counter-clockwise as when i use MIDI (again this
> is a completely separate issue from the 110 tuning offset
> phenomenon - this also makes MIDI key control into the Time
> offset as well, i.e. i hit a "C" on the MIDI keyboard and the
> Time outputs CV for a lower "F#" or so). note: when the 110s were
> part of the big A100 their tuning consistency was fine (12
> o'clock=unison), so it's not the 110's fault.
> maybe the CV out calibration on the Energy is a little off? and
> maybe the Time also?
> just curious if anyone else has noticed such behavior, or if it's
> isolated to my particular units.
> i hope i made all that as clear as possible :-) as i said it's a
> couple totally separate issues:
> 1) tuning offset between Energy & 110s
> 2) tuning offset difference between Time MIDI out vs. Time CV out)
> that then interact to create a compounded dysfunction. thanks in
> advance for any comments or advice.
> Be Seeing You!
> --chris

The problem is probably caused by the simple power supply used in the A-100
miniature cases. The standard power supplies of the "big" cases is adjusted
to exactly +/- 12.00V. The power supply built into the A-100 miniature cases
uses simple voltage regulators (7812, 7912) that cannot be adjusted and have
some tolerances (typ. +/- 11.5 ... 12.5V). As the absolute pitch of the
A-110 is affected by the supply voltage this is probably the reason why the
tuning of the A-110 is a bit off the Dark Energy. If you own an A-100
standard case (A-100G6, A-100P6/P9, A-100LC6/LC9 or any monster case) you
may try this out. I'd expect that the A-110 is in tune with the Dark Energy
when it's powered by one of these cases.

But there is a simple solution: adjust the trimming potentiometer P6 (VCO
offset) on the A-110 board so that the A-110 is in tune with the Dark Energy
VCO (i.e. with the manual frequency controls at the front panels of both
units in center position). Details on our website:

www.doepfer.com > PRODUCTS > A-100 > Module Overview > A-110 > service
manual

If you only touch P6 nothing can go wrong. But do not change the position of
any other trimming potentiometer.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

2011-10-14 by christian ienni

SUCCESS!!!! and a bonus......

made the adjustment, and everything is lined up nicely now. also i discovered an unexpected bonus: i had also mentioned that tuning discrepancy between the Dark Time MIDI & CV outputs - the tuning knobs on the 110s don't have quite the range to get wider intervals (such as 5ths), again probably due to the power supply issue, but i found i can use the Time's tuning offset to advantage, controlling one of the 110s from the Energy's CV out and the other from the Time's CV out. with the wider octave settings on the 110 the offset is enough to get very effective high 5ths (the Energy itself can tune down a 5th, but only up a 4th). very cool!! "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"


thanks again for all your help Dieter!

--chris



________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: christian ienni <ienni23@yahoo.com>
To: "Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

Ah! Enlightenment. ^_^

Seriously, though, many thanks! after i sent the email it did occur to me that it probably had something to do with power supplies. since those 2 110s are dedicated to the Energy i will definitely make the adjustment you describe. (and sometime i will try connecting the Energy to the big A100 just to see, though i have a feeling you're absolutely right about it.)

any thoughts about the other issue: the difference in the tuning between using the Time's MIDI vs. CV outputs? it's not a big deal (it doesn't affect the usability at all for me), i'm just curious if it's intentional or a glitch. (maybe this is a question for Christian Assal?)

Again, stupendous thanks!

--chris

(ps- total non sequitor, but thanks for turning me on to GusGus! "Over" is now stuck in my brain, and i just purchased "Arabian Horse" and recorded the audio from the live perfromances on youtube. beautiful and minimalist - love it!! and Earth... wow! ^_^ )

________________________________
From: "yahoo@doepfer.de" <yahoo@doepfer.de>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:31 AM
Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

> hi all!
> just curious about possibly anomalous behavior i've noticed... in
> addition to my A100 rig, i also have another separate keyboard
> setup that includes a "micro-modular" system based on a Dark
> Time/Energy combo expanded with 2 mini-cases of modules,
> including 2 A110 oscillators (more portable than the 5 G6 racks
> ^_^ ). I have the Time controlling the Energy over MIDI, with the
> CV1 output of the Energy controlling the 110s. the problem is the
> tuning on the 110s is offset from the tuning on the Energy: with
> the Energy's VCO tuning knob at 12 o'clock (which is in tune with
> MIDI, i.e. root key is "C"), the 2 110s have to have their tuning
> pots turned almost fully clockwise to be in unison tune with the
> Energy. this is a consistent offset even when i change control to
> all 3 running from the CV out of the Time instead of the MIDI
> control (Time->CV->Energy & 110s instead of
> Time->MIDI->Energy->CV->110s), though that adds the additional
> separate phenomenon that root pitch on the Time is also off: i.e.
> root "C" is when the Time's knobs are at approximately 12 o'clock
> instead of full counter-clockwise as when i use MIDI (again this
> is a completely separate issue from the 110 tuning offset
> phenomenon - this also makes MIDI key control into the Time
> offset as well, i.e. i hit a "C" on the MIDI keyboard and the
> Time outputs CV for a lower "F#" or so). note: when the 110s were
> part of the big A100 their tuning consistency was fine (12
> o'clock=unison), so it's not the 110's fault.
> maybe the CV out calibration on the Energy is a little off? and
> maybe the Time also?
> just curious if anyone else has noticed such behavior, or if it's
> isolated to my particular units.
> i hope i made all that as clear as possible :-) as i said it's a
> couple totally separate issues:
> 1) tuning offset between Energy & 110s
> 2) tuning offset difference between Time MIDI out vs. Time CV out)
> that then interact to create a compounded dysfunction. thanks in
> advance for any comments or advice.
> Be Seeing You!
> --chris

The problem is probably caused by the simple power supply used in the A-100
miniature cases. The standard power supplies of the "big" cases is adjusted
to exactly +/- 12.00V. The power supply built into the A-100 miniature cases
uses simple voltage regulators (7812, 7912) that cannot be adjusted and have
some tolerances (typ. +/- 11.5 ... 12.5V). As the absolute pitch of the
A-110 is affected by the supply voltage this is probably the reason why the
tuning of the A-110 is a bit off the Dark Energy. If you own an A-100
standard case (A-100G6, A-100P6/P9, A-100LC6/LC9 or any monster case) you
may try this out. I'd expect that the A-110 is in tune with the Dark Energy
when it's powered by one of these cases.

But there is a simple solution: adjust the trimming potentiometer P6 (VCO
offset) on the A-110 board so that the A-110 is in tune with the Dark Energy
VCO (i.e. with the manual frequency controls at the front panels of both
units in center position). Details on our website:

www.doepfer.com > PRODUCTS > A-100 > Module Overview > A-110 > service
manual

If you only touch P6 nothing can go wrong. But do not change the position of
any other trimming potentiometer.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AW: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

2011-10-14 by yahoo@doepfer.de

> Ah! Enlightenment. ^_^
>
> Seriously, though, many thanks! after i sent the email it did
> occur to me that it probably had something to do with power
> supplies. since those 2 110s are dedicated to the Energy i will
> definitely make the adjustment you describe. (and sometime i will
> try connecting the Energy to the big A100 just to see, though i
> have a feeling you're absolutely right about it.)
>
> any thoughts about the other issue: the difference in the tuning
> between using the Time's MIDI vs. CV outputs? it's not a big deal
> (it doesn't affect the usability at all for me), i'm just curious
> if it's intentional or a glitch. (maybe this is a question for
> Christian Assal?)
>
>
> Again, stupendous thanks!

Maybe it has to with the fact that there is no fixed assignment of CV
voltage to absolute pitch (i.e. there is no CV that is assigned to "F"). CV
is only relative with 1V/octave or 1/12V for each semitoen. The audible
pitch depends upon a lot of parameters, e.g. position of the tune controls,
octave switches, additional CVs applied to the VCO (via sockets at the front
panel or via A-100 bus) and the factory adjustment of the VCO. Our VCOs are
adjusted to "C" if the controls are in a neutral position but as fas as I
know other manufacturers adjust for "A".

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

AW: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

2011-10-14 by yahoo@doepfer.de

> SUCCESS!!!! and a bonus......
>
> made the adjustment, and everything is lined up nicely now. also
> i discovered an unexpected bonus: i had also mentioned that
> tuning discrepancy between the Dark Time MIDI & CV outputs - the
> tuning knobs on the 110s don't have quite the range to get wider
> intervals (such as 5ths), again probably due to the power supply
> issue, but i found i can use the Time's tuning offset to
> advantage, controlling one of the 110s from the Energy's CV out
> and the other from the Time's CV out. with the wider octave
> settings on the 110 the offset is enough to get very effective
> high 5ths (the Energy itself can tune down a 5th, but only up a
> 4th). very cool!! "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"
>
>
> thanks again for all your help Dieter!
>
> --chris

The range of the tuning knob can be modified by lowering the resistor R5
(1M). If you replace the 1M e.g. by 100k you obtain about a four octaves
range (but then it's more difficult to tune the VCOs). Details in the A-100
service manual (position of R5) and on the A-100 DIY page (chapter 4.1.1.
Changing the sensitivity of manual controls)

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

2011-10-14 by Florian Anwander

Hello

> The range of the tuning knob can be modified by lowering the resistor R5
> (1M). If you replace the 1M e.g. by 100k you obtain about a four octaves
> range (but then it's more difficult to tune the VCOs).
I recommend to solder another 1M resistor in parallel to the existing 
R5. This increases the range to a little bit more than one octave, but 
the range is still small enough, to do a satisfying fine tuning.
This is the most easy thing, as you do not have to desolder the existing 
resistor.

Re: AW: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

2011-10-14 by christian ienni

that makes sense, as there is nothing connected to the CV in of the Time - if i were controlling the Time by CV instead of MIDI things would probably line up fine. in any case, as i said in the other message i found a way to use the offset to my advantage.



________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: "yahoo@doepfer.de" <yahoo@doepfer.de>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 1:29 AM
Subject: AW: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

> Ah! Enlightenment. ^_^
>
> Seriously, though, many thanks! after i sent the email it did
> occur to me that it probably had something to do with power
> supplies. since those 2 110s are dedicated to the Energy i will
> definitely make the adjustment you describe. (and sometime i will
> try connecting the Energy to the big A100 just to see, though i
> have a feeling you're absolutely right about it.)
>
> any thoughts about the other issue: the difference in the tuning
> between using the Time's MIDI vs. CV outputs? it's not a big deal
> (it doesn't affect the usability at all for me), i'm just curious
> if it's intentional or a glitch. (maybe this is a question for
> Christian Assal?)
>
>
> Again, stupendous thanks!

Maybe it has to with the fact that there is no fixed assignment of CV
voltage to absolute pitch (i.e. there is no CV that is assigned to "F"). CV
is only relative with 1V/octave or 1/12V for each semitoen. The audible
pitch depends upon a lot of parameters, e.g. position of the tune controls,
octave switches, additional CVs applied to the VCO (via sockets at the front
panel or via A-100 bus) and the factory adjustment of the VCO. Our VCOs are
adjusted to "C" if the controls are in a neutral position but as fas as I
know other manufacturers adjust for "A".

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

2011-10-14 by christian ienni

that sounds like the best possible plan for the future someday. 4 octaves would be too much, but around one seems right. gonna have to practice my soldering chops before i attempt it though ;-) . thanks for the tip!



________________________________

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Florian Anwander <fanwander@mnet-online.de>
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Cc: yahoo@doepfer.de
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Energy/Time/A110 tuning discrepancy

Hello

> The range of the tuning knob can be modified by lowering the resistor R5
> (1M). If you replace the 1M e.g. by 100k you obtain about a four octaves
> range (but then it's more difficult to tune the VCOs).
I recommend to solder another 1M resistor in parallel to the existing 
R5. This increases the range to a little bit more than one octave, but 
the range is still small enough, to do a satisfying fine tuning.
This is the most easy thing, as you do not have to desolder the existing 
resistor.


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]