Digital BW, The Print

Does anyone have a suggestion for soft proofing piezography prints in
Photoshop?  I want to order a couple (warm neutral) from west coast
imaging but the image I'm working with is finicky - a large part of it
is under RGB 40,40,40 and I don't want to lose some critical detail -
so I'd like to get an idea of any changes I should make to prepare the
file.  For example, are there any other paper/printer profiles I could
use to soft proof that would be close to the piezography print?  

Thanks!

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com

See Mitch Alland's File (May 2006) in the Imageprint Yahoo Group file
section.  The discussion of dot gain curves there is applicable to
Piezography (which is where it came from, originally).  As Mitch argue,
it allows soft proofing directly.  Myself, I've always preferred the
alternative technique Mitch discusses, of (1) getting an image that
prints reasonably well in Piezography (or Imageprint), (2) on you
monitor in Photoshop, create a curves layer such that the monitor image
matches the print as precisely as possible, and then (3) use that curves
layer as a top layer in editing subsequent images, but being careful to
disable or delete the curves layer before printing.  I find this
simpler, and it's easier to do fine tweaks on a curves layer than a dot
gain layer; the curves layer functions essentially as a soft-proof
"layer," except that you have to disable it before printing -- Mitch
objects to this, but I find I can remember (almost always), and the
simplicity/flexibility outweighs that disadvantage.  De gustibus non
disputandum est.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks William!  It sounds like either way I need to get a printed 
copy of an image prior to working up a 'soft proof' layer.  

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Iverson, 
William" <wiverson@...> wrote:
>
> See Mitch Alland's File (May 2006) in the Imageprint Yahoo Group 
file
> section.  The discussion of dot gain curves there is applicable to
> Piezography (which is where it came from, originally).  As Mitch 
argue,
> it allows soft proofing directly.  Myself, I've always preferred 
the
> alternative technique Mitch discusses, of (1) getting an image that
> prints reasonably well in Piezography (or Imageprint), (2) on you
> monitor in Photoshop, create a curves layer such that the monitor 
image
> matches the print as precisely as possible, and then (3) use that 
curves
> layer as a top layer in editing subsequent images, but being 
careful to
> disable or delete the curves layer before printing.  I find this
> simpler, and it's easier to do fine tweaks on a curves layer than 
a dot
> gain layer; the curves layer functions essentially as a soft-proof
> "layer," except that you have to disable it before printing -- 
Mitch
> objects to this, but I find I can remember (almost always), and the
> simplicity/flexibility outweighs that disadvantage.  De gustibus 
non

> disputandum est.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

the bottom line is that you need a lot more info about West Coast
Imaging's system. Peizography alone doesn't tell you much. There have
been several wasy to print from several RIPs or drivers, with or
without profiles, and different ink sets as well.
If you wanted to try making a custom dot gain setting for
soft-proofing yourself, at the least you'd need a sample print and the
source file.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Brian Chapman"
<brianechapman@...> wrote:

>
> Does anyone have a suggestion for soft proofing piezography prints in
> Photoshop?  I want to order a couple (warm neutral) from west coast
> imaging but the image I'm working with is finicky - a large part of it
> is under RGB 40,40,40 and I don't want to lose some critical detail -
> so I'd like to get an idea of any changes I should make to prepare the
> file.  For example, are there any other paper/printer profiles I could
> use to soft proof that would be close to the piezography print?  
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Brian
> http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com
>

Like Tyler says there is no way to know how it will output with a
particular printer driver combination. I well set up system should be
close to what you view on a good monitor in greyscale mode. Mostly
what you will probably run into will be slight density differences but
you could end up with slight contrast variations as well. As we all
know slight difference in black and white output can transate into big
differences in visual impact.

If it were me I would convert the file to Grey Gamma 2.2. View it on a
good monitor for midtone brightness. Then check the numbers in
Photoshop for your extremes with the eye dropper tool set at 3x3
average - make sure good shadow info within  important areas doesn't
drop below about 95 greyscale value in PS ( Remember 100 is pure black
and 98 and 99 is still usually visible as something other than total
black with a good inkset) and the brightest highlight values are not
blown out at 0. I will almost put any large area of tonality at at
least 1 or 2. At that point all you can do is have them do a test. 

As any good black and white printer will tell you there is so much
that is subjective, even with a perfect file. Curves is where the
creativity lies. That is why I always do proofs of everything if I can
for a client before outputting final things. I would ask for that.
Even a 5x7 proof of your file can tell you a lot. If you are in
another town and are spending money on this Fed Ex the proofs first.

John

Thanks John and Tyler.  

John, that's interesting about the numbers you check in Photoshop.  
That's kind of what I was wondering - and for the most part 
coincides with what I found on a couple of the prints I recently 
ordered.  

I agree about the proofs - I'm not selling these so I was more 
worried about getting as close as possible the first time to hold 
the cost down! 

Thanks again for the info!

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Like Tyler says there is no way to know how it will output with a
> particular printer driver combination. I well set up system should 
be
> close to what you view on a good monitor in greyscale mode. Mostly
> what you will probably run into will be slight density differences 
but
> you could end up with slight contrast variations as well. As we all
> know slight difference in black and white output can transate into 
big
> differences in visual impact.
> 
> If it were me I would convert the file to Grey Gamma 2.2. View it 
on a
> good monitor for midtone brightness. Then check the numbers in
> Photoshop for your extremes with the eye dropper tool set at 3x3
> average - make sure good shadow info within  important areas 
doesn't
> drop below about 95 greyscale value in PS ( Remember 100 is pure 
black
> and 98 and 99 is still usually visible as something other than 
total
> black with a good inkset) and the brightest highlight values are 
not
> blown out at 0. I will almost put any large area of tonality at at
> least 1 or 2. At that point all you can do is have them do a test. 
> 
> As any good black and white printer will tell you there is so much
> that is subjective, even with a perfect file. Curves is where the
> creativity lies. That is why I always do proofs of everything if I 
can
> for a client before outputting final things. I would ask for that.
> Even a 5x7 proof of your file can tell you a lot. If you are in
> another town and are spending money on this Fed Ex the proofs 
first.

> 
> John
>

One more note Brian. There's nothing that helps me more than to
recieve some kind of guide print that indicates the client's prefered
tonal relationships. I don't care what size it is, what system it was
made with, or if it's all green.
I'm 95% sure where to go right off the bat, otherwise it can turn into
endless rounds of proofs.

Also, and I say with with unubashed self interest...
West Coast Imaging has a great reputation and I'm sure you will be
very happy with their work. If I recall they hosted a Piezography
event years ago and Jon his-own-self showed up aout of the blue.
However, we have several small one man shops that are members of this
list and go out of their way to be contributing members of the
community, and are great printers. May I suggest that we consider them
as well as the big shops?
Sort of like supporting the 3rd party inks, and our favorite paper
vendors... or vendor <G>.
Tyler

As I was reading this thread, I was struck that 2 differernt custom 
printers were helping someone who was using a different printing 
house. I took a workshop several years ago at West Coast and I think 
they are great folks who provide a great service.  But it has been a 
very long time since Rich particpated here.  I would just like to 
thank Tyler and John for being so helpful and encourage those who 
need a printing house to consider trying them. 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> One more note Brian. There's nothing that helps me more than to
> recieve some kind of guide print that indicates the client's 
prefered
> tonal relationships. I don't care what size it is, what system it 
was
> made with, or if it's all green.
> I'm 95% sure where to go right off the bat, otherwise it can turn 
into
> endless rounds of proofs.
> 
> Also, and I say with with unubashed self interest...
> West Coast Imaging has a great reputation and I'm sure you will be
> very happy with their work. If I recall they hosted a Piezography
> event years ago and Jon his-own-self showed up aout of the blue.
> However, we have several small one man shops that are members of 
this
> list and go out of their way to be contributing members of the
> community, and are great printers. May I suggest that we consider 
them

> as well as the big shops?
> Sort of like supporting the 3rd party inks, and our favorite paper
> vendors... or vendor <G>.
> Tyler
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zonepeter"
<zonepeter@...> wrote:
>
> As I was reading this thread, I was struck that 2 differernt custom 
> printers were helping someone who was using a different printing 
> house. I took a workshop several years ago at West Coast and I think 
> they are great folks who provide a great service.  But it has been a 
> very long time since Rich particpated here.  I would just like to 
> thank Tyler and John for being so helpful and encourage those who 
> need a printing house to consider trying them. 

I should have made it clearer that I am indeed one of those printers I
am suggesting "we" support, I hope that didn't appear sneaky. I'd also
like to make it clear that the other helper in this thread, John Dean,
makes a point of remaining humble and not promoting himself here, he
is an excellent printer-
http://deanimaging.com/index.php

Regarding West Coast's lack of presence on the lists, I didn't mean
that as a criticism. The busier I get, the harder it is to stay
involved here, it's a problem. I'm sure they are very busy making
customers happy.
Tyler

Well I have to say that it is much more difficult to locate the
smaller print shops than it is the large ones - especially for those
of us who are relatively new to fine art printing in general.  In
order to get Tyler's site to come up on the first page of google
results, I had to go to his site and look at the meta tags to figure
out the best search terms to use.  'seattle quad tone carbon pigment
ink printing' finally worked (but I still don't see 'seattle' in those
meta tags Tyler!)  Not that google is the 'end all' but when I was
looking for a local (I'm in Seattle) printer a while ago I ended up
thinking there probably weren't any.  All I'm really saying is that
you have to know what you're looking for to find it and it takes a
while to figure out what you're looking for!

Before yesterday, I had no idea that either Tyler or John (or some
others that have responded to previous questions I've had) operated
print services...neither of them have a link in their "signature" and
up until the 'hint hint ;)' from Tyler I haven't read anything that
would indicate they were anything other than extremely helpful print
experts!!   

I do agree, however, that it's a benefit to everyone to 'give back' to
those who lend their expertise to the community.  

Anyway, that's my two cents.  

Brian
http://www.brianchapmanphotography.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zonepeter"
> <zonepeter@> wrote:
> >
> > As I was reading this thread, I was struck that 2 differernt custom 
> > printers were helping someone who was using a different printing 
> > house. I took a workshop several years ago at West Coast and I think 
> > they are great folks who provide a great service.  But it has been a 
> > very long time since Rich particpated here.  I would just like to 
> > thank Tyler and John for being so helpful and encourage those who 
> > need a printing house to consider trying them. 
> 
> I should have made it clearer that I am indeed one of those printers I
> am suggesting "we" support, I hope that didn't appear sneaky. I'd also
> like to make it clear that the other helper in this thread, John Dean,
> makes a point of remaining humble and not promoting himself here, he
> is an excellent printer-
> http://deanimaging.com/index.php
> 
> Regarding West Coast's lack of presence on the lists, I didn't mean
> that as a criticism. The busier I get, the harder it is to stay
> involved here, it's a problem. I'm sure they are very busy making
> customers happy.
> Tyler
>

One way to bump your website up higher on the Google reference is to
use a place like World Submit who does it for you, unless you have the
time to do the submissions yourself. There is a whole lot to do, and
nobody has any time to do it. That's why we all need a pro webmaster
to just do that.......

Unfortunately even if you put the word "piezography" in the meta tag  
of the web page 1,000 times, Google a long time ago figured out that  
is what people were doing to get their page listing to the top and  
completely ignores it now. Not sure exactly how Google works  
currently. I have tried many combinations of "unique words" and it  
still does not find my home page.
Mark

On Jul 27, 2006, at 12:18 AM, john dean wrote:

> One way to bump your website up higher on the Google reference is to
> use a place like World Submit who does it for you, unless you have the
> time to do the submissions yourself. There is a whole lot to do, and
> nobody has any time to do it. That's why we all need a pro webmaster
> to just do that.......
>
>

I didn't intend to criticize West Coast Imaging (a great place!)at 
all.  I was observing Tyler's and John's generosity before Tyler's 
comments and just wanted to thank them for it.  I for one am always 
greatful for both the tone and content from them.  
And I wish I had the time and money for Tyler's workshop!!
How about one out west :)

Peter


In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zonepeter"
> <zonepeter@> wrote:
> >
> > As I was reading this thread, I was struck that 2 differernt 
custom 
> > printers were helping someone who was using a different printing 
> > house. I took a workshop several years ago at West Coast and I 
think 
> > they are great folks who provide a great service.  But it has 
been a 
> > very long time since Rich particpated here.  I would just like to 
> > thank Tyler and John for being so helpful and encourage those who 
> > need a printing house to consider trying them. 
> 
> I should have made it clearer that I am indeed one of those 
printers I
> am suggesting "we" support, I hope that didn't appear sneaky. I'd 
also
> like to make it clear that the other helper in this thread, John 
Dean,

> makes a point of remaining humble and not promoting himself here, he
> is an excellent printer-
> http://deanimaging.com/index.php
> 
> Regarding West Coast's lack of presence on the lists, I didn't mean
> that as a criticism. The busier I get, the harder it is to stay
> involved here, it's a problem. I'm sure they are very busy making
> customers happy.
> Tyler
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zonepeter"
<zonepeter@...> wrote:
...
> And I wish I had the time and money for Tyler's workshop!!
> How about one out west :)

hey, if someone would front me a bunch of computers all with CS2
installed, a projector, and some more chairs, with no particular
payment schedule and no interest... I'd do it in a heartbeat!

Tyler

(file this under the "you asked..." catagory)
 
 Tyler-
 
 If your serious contact me off-list and I'll pass along a suggestion.
 
 Bill Kennedy
 Austin, TX.

 -----Original Message-----
 From: tyler@...
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 2:39 PM
 Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Piezography soft proof...
 
     --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "zonepeter"
 <zonepeter@...> wrote:
 ...
 > And I wish I had the time and money for Tyler's workshop!!
 > How about one out west :)
 
 hey, if someone would front me a bunch of computers all with CS2
 installed, a projector, and some more chairs, with no particular
 payment schedule and no interest... I'd do it in a heartbeat!
 
 Tyler
 
      
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mark Savoia wrote:
> Unfortunately even if you put the word "piezography" in the meta tag  
> of the web page 1,000 times, Google a long time ago figured out that  
> is what people were doing to get their page listing to the top and  
> completely ignores it now. Not sure exactly how Google works  
> currently. I have tried many combinations of "unique words" and it  
> still does not find my home page.
> Mark
> 
An expert in "search engine optimisation" told me that Google doesn't 
look at meta tags at all, only the text of the page.

Howard