Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-11 by Mitch Alland

How to display large prints --  24x36 inches (60x90cm) and as large  
as 40x60 inches (1x1.5m) -- has been a perennial  problem. I mean  
that for prints this large I don't like to use a mat and frame under  
glass.

Until now I've been printing on an Epson 7600 printer using Epson  
Premium Semi-Matte paper and have had the prints (cold) laminated  
with a glossy laminate. This was necessary to eliminate bronzing and  
gloss differential and to make the blacks deeper and richer, as the  
K2 inks of the x6xx series of printers still had dull blacks that had  
a "veiled" look -- a look that made me uncomfortable trying to sell  
an un-laminated print. But lamination also served to protect the  
print, and allowed display and framing without glass, as the  
lamination protected the print and allowed cleaning it with a soft,  
damp cloth.

My most recent series of 58 24x36 inch prints that I'm preparing for  
an  exhibition are printed on Semi-Matte with a 1/2 inch-wide white  
border and are laminated and mounted on 2mm-thick black acrylic  
panels, which gives a nice black edge to the prints: for this  
particular series I like exhibiting the prints in this way, as I  
don't want these prints too look like precious objects -- and this  
also has the advantage that the buyer can display the print as is or  
frame it any way he wants to.

Now the plot thickens: I've recently replaced my 7600 printer with a  
9800, and for glossy-type papers I find the new K3 inks to be a great  
improvement. Using the ImagePrint v6.1 RIP I find that now my prints  
on Semi-Matte paper have no bronzing, no gloss differential and the  
blacks no longer have the dull, veiled look: I can now sell these  
prints without lamination. (And, if I don't laminate, perhaps I  
should start using Epson Luster paper as suggested in the quote from  
Bill Atkinson below).

Now that I don't need to laminate to solve problems like bronzing and  
inadequate blacks I suddenly realize that the issues of how to  
display large silver halide prints. For example, if I print on Crane  
Museo Silver Rag I wouldn't laminate, and  would have to figure out  
how the prints should be displayed, just like I would with very large  
silver halide prints.

One way to display large prints is to have them face-mounted on  
acrylic using a clear double-sided adhesive like Diasec for silver  
halide prints and Seal Optimount for digital prints. This may be the  
solution that looks the best as prints that are face-mounted on, say,  
1/4 inch-thick acrylic have great depth and have the look of wet  
prints straight out of the lab. But face-mounting is very costly: for  
a 24x36 inch print the cost is about $200+ (priced in Washington and  
Paris) and I hate the thought of the spending this amount of money  
for 58 prints; for 40x60 inch prints the cost is huge. And, anyway,  
where I live (Bangkok) there is no lab doing face-mounting on acrylic.

I suppose that another solution is to spray the prints with something  
like PrintShield of PrintGuard; but spraying a 40x60 inch print with  
three coats doesn't seem like a practical proposition. And, again,  
these sprays are not available in Bangkok.

A third solution would be to sell the prints as is and let the buyer  
worry about how he frames the prints; but that still leaves the issue  
of how to display these large prints at an exhibition.

So all this makes the original solution of laminating the prints look  
like the most practical one. But if I'm going to continue laminating  
the prints then I might as well stick to using the Epson Semi-Matte  
paper which is relatively inexpensive and gives great results with  
lamination, producing prints with deep, rich, satisfying blacks and  
good depth.

Any thoughts or suggestions? But remember we're talking about really  
large prints, not 12x18 prints and smaller.

--Mitch/Potomac. MD

And here's the quote from Bill Atkinson:
  I keep testing fine art papers because I like the texture and feel  
of a nice heavyweight matte paper, and I have seen some  attractive  
work by other artists printed on matte papers.  However, I have not  
yet found any art paper that can come close to  the depth and clarity  
that I get from photo papers.  The best black I can get with most  
matte papers is L=23 instead of L=3.4 This makes a huge and  
unacceptable degradation of image quality.  When I make the exact  
same print on both papers and  place framed prints side-by-side on  
easels, I and my friends always end up choosing the print made on  
photo paper.   Once the textured edges are covered with a mat, and  
the rest of the image is framed with plexiglass, all that is left of  
the  art paper print is a huge drop in clarity, saturation, depth,  
and detail.  Even pastel orchid prints look better on photo paper.    
I am still waiting for someone to make a rag paper that will deliver  
the depth, clarity, and and tonal range of luster.   It would be nice  
if this paper could use the photo black ink so I didn't have to  
compromise the reliability and repeatability  of my printer by  
switching back and forth between different inks.

I use Epson Premium Luster Photo Paper (250), mostly in 36 inch  
rolls. I used to use Epson Premium Semimatte Photo Paper (250)  
because I prefer its smoother surface. I switched to Premium Luster  
because with the 9800 the luster gives deeper blacks and richer  
colors. On premium luster, the best black I could get with the 9600  
was L=10.2, but with the 9800 I now get L=3.4 This makes a  
significant difference in the overall clarity and tonal range of the  
print. When I place a 9800 print next to a 9600 print, the 9600 print  
looks "smoked" in the shadows by comparison. When Epson Premium  
Luster is used with the 9800's advanced black and white mode the  
results are gorgeous. I am always experimenting with different  
papers, but the Epson Premium Luster still gives me the best results.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-11 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

Mitch Alland wrote:

> How to display large prints --  24x36 inches (60x90cm) and as large 
> as 40x60 inches (1x1.5m) -- has been a perennial  problem. I mean 
> that for prints this large I don't like to use a mat and frame under 
> glass.

My solution to this is canvas. I use a gallery wrap (staples in the 
back, not the sides). To accomodate this, I print a black border about 
half a cm wider than the thickness of the stretcher bar around the 
outside of the image. Coat the canvas, then stretch it when the coating 
is cured. You can hang it on the wall for display without a frame and it 
looks fine. This lets the customer decide what kind of frame is 
appropriate for the environment in which they will display it. If you 
decide to frame it yourself, consider a "floater frame" which is a 
beautiful, simple, elegant look.
--
Bruce Watson

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-11 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

Mitch Alland wrote:

> Bruce:
>
> > My solution to this is canvas.
>
> But doesn't canvas have a texture? In other words, does canvas look 
> like "canvas"? Also, does canvas results in less resolution and 
> rougher tonal transitions?
>
> --Mitch/Bangkok

All of it has a texture, except maybe the films. My "standard" paper HPR 
has a texture. Most canvases have more texture, some much more. A tight 
weave and lots of gesso can be quite smooth. But you are talking about 
large prints, and the typical viewing distances are correspondingly 
larger as well. So the texture matters less.

As to resolution, this seems open to debate. One would think that a 
rougher texture would drop the resolution of the print somewhat. I find 
in practice that it doesn't. At least with the canvas I've been using. I 
just hung a show with two canvas prints (125 x 100 cm). At the opening 
people were walking right up to them and remarking about how sharp they 
were. So I'm thinking it's not much of an issue.

As to tonal transitions, my personal experience is that tonal 
transitions are tonal transitions. More determined by the ink than the 
substrate. IOW, prints on canvas and paper are very comparable from a 
tonal standpoint. A good profile will help of course.

The only way to find out for sure is to try it. Canvas might work for 
you, and if it does it solves a whole host of problems for you. If it 
doesn't, you're back where you started. So what have you got to loose?
--
Bruce Watson

Re: [Digital BW] Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-11 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

Tim Atherton wrote:

> "I mean
> that for prints this large I don't like to use a mat and frame under
> glass."
>
> I would think most of the other methods seem to have as many problems as
> doing this. What's the big problem with matting and framing under glass?
> I've done this with a number of 40x50 prints and it worked very well.
>
> tim

The biggest problem for me is matting - in the US, the max size normally 
available is 40x60 inches, which is too small to be useful if your print 
is 40x50 inches. Unless your favorite matte board comes in really large 
sizes, this basically limits you to prints smaller than 80 cm (31.5 in) 
on the short side.

Then there's the glazing - cost, weight, and fragility (glass breaks, 
plastic scratches). Then there's shipping (weight, fragility). And 
finally a huge frame with glazing like that is a serious pain to hang 
because of it's weight (takes two people).

 From a display standpoint, I find that big sheets of glazing create too 
much glare. Yes, you can pop for anti-reflective glass, but I don't have 
a rich uncle financing me at the moment.

A canvas print solves all these problems for me. Not for everybody, 
YMMV, yada yada yada. I'm just saying, for me, if it's bigger than about 
55cm on the short side, I'm printing on canvas.
--
Bruce Watson

RE: [Digital BW] Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-11 by Tim Atherton

>
> Then there's the glazing - cost, weight, and fragility (glass breaks,
> plastic scratches). Then there's shipping (weight, fragility). And
> finally a huge frame with glazing like that is a serious pain to hang
> because of it's weight (takes two people).

Yes there are those - probably the biggest problems - though not
insurmountable

and as I said - every method seems to have it's problems - face mounting,
for example,  can be gorgeous, but it's rather expensive - and now the face
of the print is basically even more delicate than a completely bare print

>
>  From a display standpoint, I find that big sheets of glazing create too
> much glare. Yes, you can pop for anti-reflective glass, but I don't have
> a rich uncle financing me at the moment.

That's never really worried me that much - as long as it's well lit

> The biggest problem for me is matting - in the US, the max size normally
> available is 40x60 inches, which is too small to be useful if your print
> is 40x50 inches. Unless your favorite matte board comes in really large
> sizes, this basically limits you to prints smaller than 80 cm (31.5 in)
> on the short side.

we got around it this way - my framer has a really nice way of basically
mitering the corners - so he's not using a single full matte and cutting a
hole in it - he's basically using four sides. He doesn't try to hide it, but
it's so nicely done, I've never ever had anyone comment on it - it's almost
like a feature that distinguishes the large size prints. He frames for the
National Gallery of Canada and it's a method he developed for large work
there.


tim

Re: [Digital BW] Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-12 by Mitch Alland

Tim:

> I would think most of the other methods seem to have as many problems as
> doing this. What's the big problem with matting and framing under glass?
> I've done this with a number of 40x50 prints and it worked very well.

No problem at all in frmaing and matting, but I just don't like this look for large prints; and 
transporting is a problem ebecause of weight and breakage.

--Mitch

Re: Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-13 by Mitch Alland

> Mitch, the problem is your paper choice. Try some of the fine  art  
> papers
> such as Somerset Velvet. There is NO bronzing on these  papers

No, the issue isn't bronzing using the K3 inks, particularly with  
ImagePrint. As I stated in my posting,  I use papers that require  
Photo Black ink because I want the rich, deep blacks that matte paper  
with Matte Black ink cannot produce -- and that's why I included long  
quote from Bill Atkinson giving the quantitative difference between  
the two inks in the blacks.

Indeed, the whole point was that, now with the K3 inks, the issues,  
when one wants to frame large prints without glass, is the same as  
for silver halide prints.

--Mitch

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-13 by joaskild

Mitch,

Are you sure it will be too big work to spry them with primere art or somethig the like? With a 
car auto sprayer wich should not be too expencive.

I have same problem as I what to use the new fiber gloss paperes but I feel there is no point 
to lamanite them so I was hoping that I could find a easy way to spary large prints. I am 
planning to mount them on 2 mm Dibond (or Dilite) aliminium plate wich is light and arkive 
lasting and very strong and streat. If I mount it my selv its not too expensive. (only problem 
is to cut the plate nicely...) I havent yet started to experment with the sprying but maby there 
are some on this forum who can tell if it is too big work to spray 126 prints in the size 24inc 
by 36inc?

Greatings

Joakim

Re: Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-16 by joshhackney

Bruce and all,

I have started doing a lot of canvas on my 7800.  When I need to mount canvas to go in a 
frame, I have been using the technique described on the following page-

http://www.inkjetart.com/news/archive/IJN_08-19-04.html#2  

So far, this has worked very well.  It's lightweight, very flat, and frames well.  I know it's 
not true "conservation" mounting, but this article seems to indicate that the adverse affect 
of using the buffermount tissue is more than offset by the protection the acid free foam 
core provides the back of the canvas against airborne pollutants.  Thoughts?

I'm planning to offer gallery wraps this year.  How long have you been doing this?  Have 
you seen any sagging of the canvas over time?  Also, I'm curious to know why you are 
coating before stretching.  Most posts I have seen suggest stretching first and then 
coating.  

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is a "floater frame".

Thanks!

Josh



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Mitch Alland wrote:
> 
> > How to display large prints --  24x36 inches (60x90cm) and as large 
> > as 40x60 inches (1x1.5m) -- has been a perennial  problem. I mean 
> > that for prints this large I don't like to use a mat and frame under 
> > glass.
> 
> My solution to this is canvas. I use a gallery wrap (staples in the 
> back, not the sides). To accomodate this, I print a black border about 
> half a cm wider than the thickness of the stretcher bar around the 
> outside of the image. Coat the canvas, then stretch it when the coating 
> is cured. You can hang it on the wall for display without a frame and it 
> looks fine. This lets the customer decide what kind of frame is 
> appropriate for the environment in which they will display it. If you 
> decide to frame it yourself, consider a "floater frame" which is a 
> beautiful, simple, elegant look.
> --
> Bruce Watson
>

Re: Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-17 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "joshhackney" 
<joshhackney@...> wrote:
> 
> I'm planning to offer gallery wraps this year.  How long have you 
been doing this?  Have 
> you seen any sagging of the canvas over time?  Also, I'm curious to 
know why you are 
> coating before stretching.  Most posts I have seen suggest 
stretching first and then 
> coating.  
> 


Many coat before stretching to keep the canvas from cracking. I found 
that higher quality stretcher bars with a rounded "lip" prevent the 
cracking. If you buy good stretcher bars, and assemble them properly, 
you can drive wedges into the corners to expand the frame if the 
material starts to stretch. This is less of a problem with the 
cotton/poly blend material. If this happens with 100% cotton, you can 
often spray the back with water, and it will tighten up as it dries.

The stretcher bars from "BEST" seem to be very good.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Displaying large K3 prints -- same issues as with large silver halide prints

2006-03-17 by hogarth@snappydsl.net

joshhackney wrote:

> I have started doing a lot of canvas on my 7800.  When I need to mount 
> canvas to go in a
> frame, I have been using the technique described on the following page-
>
> http://www.inkjetart.com/news/archive/IJN_08-19-04.html#2 
>
> So far, this has worked very well.  It's lightweight, very flat, and 
> frames well.  I know it's
> not true "conservation" mounting, but this article seems to indicate 
> that the adverse affect
> of using the buffermount tissue is more than offset by the protection 
> the acid free foam
> core provides the back of the canvas against airborne pollutants.  
> Thoughts?

If it works for you, go for it. Then again, why not just dry mount a 
paper print? Canvas in general is more expensive than paper. If you are 
going to use it the way you would paper, why not just use paper in the 
first place? Unless it's a texture thing...

>
> I'm planning to offer gallery wraps this year.  How long have you been 
> doing this?

couple of years.

> Have
> you seen any sagging of the canvas over time?

No. But if they did, I could just readjust the stretcher bars. If you 
used mortised bars this isn't too difficult.

> Also, I'm curious to know why you are
> coating before stretching.  Most posts I have seen suggest stretching 
> first and then
> coating. 

Protects the gesso and inkjet coating from the rigors of stretching. But 
mostly because the guy doing the printing and coating is half way across 
the country. He can print and coat, then roll it up and ship it in a 
tube. Much better shipping options as opposed to shipping stretched on 
the bars.

>
> Please pardon my ignorance, but what is a "floater frame".

A frame that makes the print appear to float. Conventional frame covers 
up a few mm of the outside edge of the print. Floater frame leaves a gap 
between the edge of the frame and the side of the print, maybe as much 
as a cm. Thus, the print seems to float in the frame. It's a nice 
elegant look, but it requires a gallery wrap.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Thanks!
>
> Josh
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, hogarth@... wrote:
> >
> > Mitch Alland wrote:
> >
> > > How to display large prints --  24x36 inches (60x90cm) and as large
> > > as 40x60 inches (1x1.5m) -- has been a perennial  problem. I mean
> > > that for prints this large I don't like to use a mat and frame under
> > > glass.
> >
> > My solution to this is canvas. I use a gallery wrap (staples in the
> > back, not the sides). To accomodate this, I print a black border about
> > half a cm wider than the thickness of the stretcher bar around the
> > outside of the image. Coat the canvas, then stretch it when the coating
> > is cured. You can hang it on the wall for display without a frame 
> and it
> > looks fine. This lets the customer decide what kind of frame is
> > appropriate for the environment in which they will display it. If you
> > decide to frame it yourself, consider a "floater frame" which is a
> > beautiful, simple, elegant look.
> > --
> > Bruce Watson
> >
>

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.