Digital BW, The Print

> From: bobbysandstrom <bobbysandstrom@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:53:41 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Hats off to CRANE for their Museo Silver Rag.
> 
> Just felt obliged to report my latest findings with Silver Rag. After my
> second batch of trials
> and tweaks to both contrast and sharpening I must say this paper is stellar! I
> am looking at 
> both a contact print of an 8x10 neg (made with Kodak Polymax Silver Gelatin
> Fiber Paper and 
> selenium toned) as well as a 4800/Silver Rag print using the Epson ABW driver
> with Premium 
> Glossy 250 selected. I can tell you with all honesty the Silver Rag Print
> looks as good if not
> better. I can't believe I am saying that but it's true! I was out earlier
> today looking at a durst
> cls 1840  10x10 enlarger. I decided not to buy it after seeing this print.
> This particular analog
> contact print is what I've been using as a benchmark. My dream of having the
> depth and 
> quality of a traditional print using an inkjet printer has now come true. And
> I believe it's all
> only going to get better! Having an 8x10 camera and an Epson 4990 using 48bit
> color 16 
> pass scan mode at 1800dpi (2400 is too large for the system to handle) and
> taping the neg 
> down after it's been sufficiently heated... I can produce prints beyond my
> wildest dreams. 
> WOW. I would like to thank all of the hard working folks that did the research
> to bring these 
> technologies to fruition. Epson and now Crane!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!
> 
> Go get yourself some Silver Rag as soon as it comes out! You won't be sorry!
>

> Just felt obliged to report my latest findings with Silver Rag. After 
> my second batch of trials
> and tweaks to both contrast and sharpening I must say this paper is 
> stellar! I am looking at
> both a contact print of an 8x10 neg (made with Kodak Polymax Silver 
> Gelatin Fiber Paper and
> selenium toned) as well as a 4800/Silver Rag print using the Epson ABW 
> driver with Premium
> Glossy 250 selected. I can tell you with all honesty the Silver Rag 
> Print looks as good if not
> better. I can't believe I am saying that but it's true! I was out 
> earlier today looking at a durst
> cls 1840 10x10 enlarger. I decided not to buy it after seeing this 
> print. This particular analog
> contact print is what I've been using as a benchmark. My dream of 
> having the depth and
> quality of a traditional print using an inkjet printer has now come 
> true. And I believe it's all
> only going to get better! Having an 8x10 camera and an Epson 4990 
> using 48bit color 16
> pass scan mode at 1800dpi (2400 is too large for the system to handle) 
> and taping the neg
> down after it's been sufficiently heated... I can produce prints 
> beyond my wildest dreams.
> WOW. I would like to thank all of the hard working folks that did the 
> research to bring these
> technologies to fruition. Epson and now Crane!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!
>
> Go get yourself some Silver Rag as soon as it comes out! You won't be 
> sorry!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd 
> AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

> Bob:
>
> I tested by doing the following.... 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, 16x passes. I then 
> looked at the scans in
> photoshop at 100% and larger. You can see that each scan got 
> progressively better with
> removing the noise. 16x was better than 8x and so on. The file is 
> huge! I can only go up to
> 1800dpi because the file goes over the limit that can be handled. I 
> end up with about 1.35gig
> files using 48bit mode. I use SilverFast Studio withe the Epson 4990. 
> I don't do any tweaking
> other than setting the frame around the image. I leave all the 
> processing to photoshop. Make
> sure you get the right version of the software because lesser priced 
> versions have 16x mode
> but don't use 16 different scans with the noise reduction scheme. I 
> guess the way the noise
> reduction works is by eliminating the "random" pixels... those that 
> show up in different spots
> with each pass. So the software compares each pass to find the 
> consistent pixels and gets rid
> of the rest. Being that noise shows up randomly, this works like a charm.
> Also, I tape the neg down with red ruby litho tape emulsion side up. I 
> first do an 8x pass to
> heat the neg then retape flat.
>
> Good Luck!
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd 
> AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of bobbysandstrom
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 4:08 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Hats off to CRANE for their Museo 
> Silver Rag.
> 
> Bob:
> 
> I tested by doing the following.... 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, 16x 
> passes. I then looked at the scans in photoshop at 100% and 
> larger. You can see that each scan got progressively better 
> with removing the noise. 16x was better than 8x and so on. 
> The file is huge! I can only go up to 1800dpi because the 
> file goes over the limit that can be handled. I end up with 
> about 1.35gig files using 48bit mode. I use SilverFast Studio 
> withe the Epson 4990. I don't do any tweaking other than 
> setting the frame around the image. I leave all the 
> processing to photoshop. Make sure you get the right version 
> of the software because lesser priced versions have 16x mode 
> but don't use 16 different scans with the noise reduction 
> scheme. I guess the way the noise reduction works is by 
> eliminating the "random" pixels... those that show up in 
> different spots with each pass. So the software compares each 
> pass to find the consistent pixels and gets rid of the rest. 
> Being that noise shows up randomly, this works like a charm.
> Also, I tape the neg down with red ruby litho tape emulsion 
> side up. I first do an 8x pass to heat the neg then retape flat.
> 
> Good Luck!

On Jan 18, 2006, at 8:44 PM, bobbysandstrom wrote:

>  The original 8x pass takes about 45min. I then
> quit the scan and check the preview (you can see the film moves)  
> then I re-tape and go for
> the 1hr30min scan. It's worth it.

On Jan 19, 2006, at 9:51 AM, chipcarterdc wrote:

> Back on topic, below is the email I just sent to Crane's with my  
> initial impressions of Silver
> Rag printed on my Epson 98000 w. Pghhoto Black:
>
> "I have just printed some Silver Rag yesterday on my Epson 9800  
> with Photo Black ink and
> the prints look spectacular.  I obviously need to consider them  
> some more (I'm going to
> look at the prints again today after they're fully dried), but my  
> initial reaction is that this
> paper is fabulous.
>
> My only concerns are that (a) it's a bit too glossy and (b) it's a  
> bit too textured.  Put
> together, the high gloss and texture create obtrusive reflectivity  
> when the print is viewed
> at any angle other than flat on a table or flat against a wall.  In  
> other words, if the paper is
> tilted at all (and I don't mean severely titled -- just any  
> position that's not perfectly flat),
> or if the light is coming at the paper from an oblique angle, the  
> glossiness/reflectivity
> becomes obtrusive and obscures the details.  So, my initial gut  
> reaction is to suggest that
> Crane cut the current "gloss" (currently more like an RC darkroom  
> paper) down to a
> "sheen" (more like a air-dried fiber darkroom print) and minimize  
> the texture a bit.  (I
> don't think the texture should be eliminated, however -- the  
> texture gives this paper a
> unique appearance.  But to truly be closer to an air-dried fiber  
> print, the textured should
> be lessened somewhat).  Keep in mind, though, that the image I was  
> printing for the
> samples was a B&W portrait will large areas of black (i.e., a head- 
> and-shoulders portrait
> against a black background), so I imagine that that may have  
> something to do with the
> obtrusive gloss when viewed in any position other than perfectly flat.
>
> If the "obtrusive reflectivity when hit by oblique light" issue can  
> be minimized, Silver Rag
> will quickly become my primary paper."
>
> (I should add that even if the paper is released as-is, I will  
> still probably use it quite a bit)).

> From: chipcarterdc <chipcarterdc@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:51:53 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Museo Silver Rag impressions
> 
> Back on topic, below is the email I just sent to Crane's with my initial
> impressions of Silver
> Rag printed on my Epson 98000 w. Pghhoto Black:
> 
> "I have just printed some Silver Rag yesterday on my Epson 9800 with Photo
> Black ink and 
> the prints look spectacular.  I obviously need to consider them some more (I'm
> going to 
> look at the prints again today after they're fully dried), but my initial
> reaction is that this
> paper is fabulous.
> 
> My only concerns are that (a) it's a bit too glossy and (b) it's a bit too
> textured.  Put 
> together, the high gloss and texture create obtrusive reflectivity when the
> print is viewed 
> at any angle other than flat on a table or flat against a wall.  In other
> words, if the paper is
> tilted at all (and I don't mean severely titled -- just any position that's
> not perfectly flat),
> or if the light is coming at the paper from an oblique angle, the
> glossiness/reflectivity
> becomes obtrusive and obscures the details.  So, my initial gut reaction is to
> suggest that 
> Crane cut the current "gloss" (currently more like an RC darkroom paper) down
> to a 
> "sheen" (more like a air-dried fiber darkroom print) and minimize the texture
> a bit.  (I 
> don't think the texture should be eliminated, however -- the texture gives
> this paper a 
> unique appearance.  But to truly be closer to an air-dried fiber print, the
> textured should 
> be lessened somewhat).  Keep in mind, though, that the image I was printing
> for the 
> samples was a B&W portrait will large areas of black (i.e., a
> head-and-shoulders portrait
> against a black background), so I imagine that that may have something to do
> with the 
> obtrusive gloss when viewed in any position other than perfectly flat.
> 
> If the "obtrusive reflectivity when hit by oblique light" issue can be
> minimized, Silver Rag
> will quickly become my primary paper."
> 
> (I should add that even if the paper is released as-is, I will still probably
> use it quite a bit)).
> 
>

>
> This stuff looks like Ilford Smooth Pearl in terms of gloss.  I'd prefer a
> much more matte version.  The fact that it feels stiffer and heavier is
> worth zip once it's framed.
> 
> 
> > From: chipcarterdc <chipcarterdc@h...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:51:53 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Museo Silver Rag impressions
> > 
> > Back on topic, below is the email I just sent to Crane's with my initial
> > impressions of Silver
> > Rag printed on my Epson 98000 w. Pghhoto Black:
> > 
> > "I have just printed some Silver Rag yesterday on my Epson 9800 with Photo
> > Black ink and 
> > the prints look spectacular.  I obviously need to consider them some more (I'm
> > going to 
> > look at the prints again today after they're fully dried), but my initial
> > reaction is that this
> > paper is fabulous.
> > 
> > My only concerns are that (a) it's a bit too glossy and (b) it's a bit too
> > textured.  Put 
> > together, the high gloss and texture create obtrusive reflectivity when the
> > print is viewed 
> > at any angle other than flat on a table or flat against a wall.  In other
> > words, if the paper is
> > tilted at all (and I don't mean severely titled -- just any position that's
> > not perfectly flat),
> > or if the light is coming at the paper from an oblique angle, the
> > glossiness/reflectivity
> > becomes obtrusive and obscures the details.  So, my initial gut reaction is to
> > suggest that 
> > Crane cut the current "gloss" (currently more like an RC darkroom paper) down
> > to a 
> > "sheen" (more like a air-dried fiber darkroom print) and minimize the texture
> > a bit.  (I 
> > don't think the texture should be eliminated, however -- the texture gives
> > this paper a 
> > unique appearance.  But to truly be closer to an air-dried fiber print, the
> > textured should 
> > be lessened somewhat).  Keep in mind, though, that the image I was printing
> > for the 
> > samples was a B&W portrait will large areas of black (i.e., a
> > head-and-shoulders portrait
> > against a black background), so I imagine that that may have something to do
> > with the 
> > obtrusive gloss when viewed in any position other than perfectly flat.
> > 
> > If the "obtrusive reflectivity when hit by oblique light" issue can be
> > minimized, Silver Rag
> > will quickly become my primary paper."
> > 
> > (I should add that even if the paper is released as-is, I will still probably
> > use it quite a bit)).
> > 
> >
>

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
chipcarterdc
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 11:05 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Museo Silver Rag impressions

I agree; I'd like to see less of a gloss and more of a sheen, but I wouldn't
go so far as to
say I'd prefer a "much more matte" version personally.  The soft sheen of
Hahn. Photo Rag
Satin is more to my liking.  (That paper also has too much texture and,
unlike Silver Rag,
does show some "gloss differential" between adjacent dark and light areas,
since the sheen
on Satin is produced by the ink on paper -- the paper itself is matte).




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > be minimized, Silver Rag
> > will quickly become my primary paper."
> >
> > (I should add that even if the paper is released as-is, I will  
> > still probably use it quite a bit)).
>

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Doug
Fisher
  Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:02 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Hats off to CRANE for their Museo Silver Rag.


  Do anyone know their timetable for announcing this paper?  Next month at
  PMA, perhaps?  Just curious whether anyone had some real info. on when we
  could expect it become available.

  Thanks,

  Doug
  ---
  Doug's "MF Film Holder" for batch scanning "strips" of 120/220 medium
format
  film:
  http://home.earthlink.net/~dougfisher/holder/mainintro.html



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� AND
�MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  �OWNER� AND
�MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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