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2006-01-15 by Carl Schofield
I have an unused slot (PK) in my 4000 (dual quad piezo k7and CS) that currently just has a flush cart installed. I thought about getting a cart of the Nanochrome black ink and using it in the PK slot for trying some BO printing on semimatte. Has anyone tried this? I saw no mention on the IV website about how they have their 220 ml black carts chipped (PK or MK). Supposedly this is a universal black, but I would need a PK chipped cart of ink.
2006-01-15 by Steve Kale
The one thing I would suggest checking clearly first is whether there are any issues have Nano in one channel and pigment in the others. I flushed my 2100 before inserting the Nanochromes. Are there any risks that the two different ink types mix at/under the head somehow? I have no idea.
> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:35:09 -0500 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > I have an unused slot (PK) in my 4000 (dual quad piezo k7and CS) that > currently just has a flush cart installed. I thought about getting a > cart of the Nanochrome black ink and using it in the PK slot for > trying some BO printing on semimatte. Has anyone tried this? I saw > no mention on the IV website about how they have their 220 ml black > carts chipped (PK or MK). Supposedly this is a universal black, but > I would need a PK chipped cart of ink.
2006-01-15 by Finn Krogvig
Is it possible to replace the epson standard K with Eboni and still be able to print color (mix eboni and epson color inks)? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-01-15 by Steve Kale
Yes - although re-profiling would be recommended.
> From: Finn Krogvig <finn@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:24:17 +0100 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Digital BW] eboni AND color printing with 1290 ? > > Is it possible to replace the epson standard K with Eboni and still be > able to print color (mix eboni and epson color inks)? >
2006-01-15 by Finn Krogvig
For reprofiling I need to use a RIP ? -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] På vegne av Steve Kale Sendt: 15. januar 2006 17:28 Til: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Emne: Re: [Digital BW] eboni AND color printing with 1290 ? Yes - although re-profiling would be recommended. > From: Finn Krogvig <finn@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:24:17 +0100 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Digital BW] eboni AND color printing with 1290 ? > > Is it possible to replace the epson standard K with Eboni and still be > able to print color (mix eboni and epson color inks)? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-01-15 by Steve Kale
No. Obviously you are changing one of the inks and it will have a slightly different colour. If colour accuracy is critical to you then one would recommend redoing your ICC profiles for colour work (with a profiling package like EyeOne from Gretag Macbeth) to take account of this. The two inks are not that far apart though.
> From: Finn Krogvig <finn@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:55:10 +0100 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: SV: [Digital BW] eboni AND color printing with 1290 ? > > For reprofiling I need to use a RIP ? > > > > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] På vegne av Steve > Kale > Sendt: 15. januar 2006 17:28 > Til: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Emne: Re: [Digital BW] eboni AND color printing with 1290 ? > > > Yes - although re-profiling would be recommended. > > >> From: Finn Krogvig <finn@...> >> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:24:17 +0100 >> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> >> Subject: [Digital BW] eboni AND color printing with 1290 ? >> >> Is it possible to replace the epson standard K with Eboni and still be >> able to print color (mix eboni and epson color inks)? >>
2006-01-15 by Carl Schofield
Thanks Steve. I don't know whether this will be a problem or not, but I'll check. If you have made any test BO prints with the Nanochromes in your 2100 I'm curious to know how they look and what dmax. Is the Nanochrome black warm like the Epson and MIS PK? Carl
On Jan 15, 2006, at 8:33 AM, Steve Kale wrote: > The one thing I would suggest checking clearly first is whether > there are > any issues have Nano in one channel and pigment in the others. I > flushed my > 2100 before inserting the Nanochromes. Are there any risks that > the two > different ink types mix at/under the head somehow? I have no idea. > > >> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...> >> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:35:09 -0500 >> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> >> Subject: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? >> >> I have an unused slot (PK) in my 4000 (dual quad piezo k7and CS) that >> currently just has a flush cart installed. I thought about getting a >> cart of the Nanochrome black ink and using it in the PK slot for >> trying some BO printing on semimatte. Has anyone tried this? I saw >> no mention on the IV website about how they have their 220 ml black >> carts chipped (PK or MK). Supposedly this is a universal black, but >> I would need a PK chipped cart of ink.
2006-01-15 by Shilesh Jani
OK guys, take this with a great deal of caution - caveat emptor: I mixed in equal parts the NanoChrome K and the Epson MK and let sit in a clear shot glass. I see no evidence of clumping, agglomeration, etc after a week. So, it SEEMS doable, at least in a shot glass :-) How it would behave on the head parking pad, I don't know. One of the options I am considering is to replace only the PK on my 4000 with NanoChrome K. Under ideal circumstances, I would replace the entire set, but the rather cool tint of NanoChrome K and LK is putting me off. Shilesh --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield <scho@m...> wrote: > > Thanks Steve. I don't know whether this will be a problem or not, > but I'll check. If you have made any test BO prints with the > Nanochromes in your 2100 I'm curious to know how they look and what > dmax. Is the Nanochrome black warm like the Epson and MIS PK? > > Carl > > On Jan 15, 2006, at 8:33 AM, Steve Kale wrote: > > > The one thing I would suggest checking clearly first is whether > > there are > > any issues have Nano in one channel and pigment in the others. I > > flushed my > > 2100 before inserting the Nanochromes. Are there any risks that > > the two > > different ink types mix at/under the head somehow? I have no idea. > > > > > >> From: Carl Schofield <scho@m...> > >> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 07:35:09 -0500 > >> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > >> Subject: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > >> > >> I have an unused slot (PK) in my 4000 (dual quad piezo k7and CS) that > >> currently just has a flush cart installed. I thought about getting a > >> cart of the Nanochrome black ink and using it in the PK slot for > >> trying some BO printing on semimatte. Has anyone tried this? I saw > >> no mention on the IV website about how they have their 220 ml black > >> carts chipped (PK or MK). Supposedly this is a universal black, but > >> I would need a PK chipped cart of ink. >
2006-01-15 by Steve Kale
I have not done a K only curve but will be doing so in the coming days. For the hue of the K, here's some numbers for you. Calibration chart K ink line at 50% on HPR308: Step 5: 78.0 0.1 -2.1 Step 15: 52.5 -0.5 -2.9 Step 25: 36.2 -0.6 -3.0 Step 35: 25.8 -0.3 -2.7 Step 45: 19.1 0.2 -2.3 Step 55: 14.6 0.7 -1.9 Step 65: 12.2 1.1 -1.7 Step 75: 10.4 1.4 -1.4 Step 85: 9.3 1.6 -1.5 Step 95: 9.0 1.6 -1.4 Of course that's not linearised or anything and I would limit K at 45% (and just boost to 50% if at all). It gives you an idea of the hue though (paper white 97.5 0.7 -1.3). Relatively cool which I personally don't like. Like that dMax of 2.0? These inks, while looking and feeling dry out of the printer, will drop two big figures of L* overnight and it seems like some more over another 24 hours. Please oh please let them have decent longevity...
> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:36:01 -0500 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > Thanks Steve. I don't know whether this will be a problem or not, > but I'll check. If you have made any test BO prints with the > Nanochromes in your 2100 I'm curious to know how they look and what > dmax. Is the Nanochrome black warm like the Epson and MIS PK? > > Carl >
2006-01-15 by Shilesh Jani
Steve wrote "Please oh please let them have decent longevity..." Will a group prayer help? Shilesh --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote: > > I have not done a K only curve but will be doing so in the coming days. For > the hue of the K, here's some numbers for you. Calibration chart K ink line > at 50% on HPR308: > > Step 5: 78.0 0.1 -2.1 > Step 15: 52.5 -0.5 -2.9 > Step 25: 36.2 -0.6 -3.0 > Step 35: 25.8 -0.3 -2.7 > Step 45: 19.1 0.2 -2.3 > Step 55: 14.6 0.7 -1.9 > Step 65: 12.2 1.1 -1.7 > Step 75: 10.4 1.4 -1.4 > Step 85: 9.3 1.6 -1.5 > Step 95: 9.0 1.6 -1.4 > > Of course that's not linearised or anything and I would limit K at 45% (and > just boost to 50% if at all). It gives you an idea of the hue though (paper > white 97.5 0.7 -1.3). Relatively cool which I personally don't like. > > Like that dMax of 2.0? These inks, while looking and feeling dry out of the > printer, will drop two big figures of L* overnight and it seems like some > more over another 24 hours. Please oh please let them have decent > longevity... > > > > From: Carl Schofield <scho@m...> > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:36:01 -0500 > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > > > Thanks Steve. I don't know whether this will be a problem or not, > > but I'll check. If you have made any test BO prints with the > > Nanochromes in your 2100 I'm curious to know how they look and what
> > dmax. Is the Nanochrome black warm like the Epson and MIS PK? > > > > Carl > > >
2006-01-15 by Steve Kale
Of course the darker the ink, the more density a single drop delivers, the less dots one needs for a particular density, the grainier an image will be with single channel printing.... What was the term, Digital Tri-X? Well this would up the ISO...
2006-01-15 by Carl Schofield
Amen! Thanks for the BO comments guys. I liked the cool PKN on semimatte (BO) for some prints, so perhaps the Nanochrome K will be just what I'm looking for. Carl
On Jan 15, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Shilesh Jani wrote: > Steve wrote "Please oh please let them have decent > longevity..." > > Will a group prayer help? > > Shilesh > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale > <stevekale@b...> wrote: >> >> I have not done a K only curve but will be doing so in the coming > days. For >> the hue of the K, here's some numbers for you. Calibration chart K > ink line >> at 50% on HPR308: >> >> Step 5: 78.0 0.1 -2.1 >> Step 15: 52.5 -0.5 -2.9 >> Step 25: 36.2 -0.6 -3.0 >> Step 35: 25.8 -0.3 -2.7 >> Step 45: 19.1 0.2 -2.3 >> Step 55: 14.6 0.7 -1.9 >> Step 65: 12.2 1.1 -1.7 >> Step 75: 10.4 1.4 -1.4 >> Step 85: 9.3 1.6 -1.5 >> Step 95: 9.0 1.6 -1.4 >> >> Of course that's not linearised or anything and I would limit K at > 45% (and >> just boost to 50% if at all). It gives you an idea of the hue > though (paper >> white 97.5 0.7 -1.3). Relatively cool which I personally don't > like. >> >> Like that dMax of 2.0? These inks, while looking and feeling dry > out of the >> printer, will drop two big figures of L* overnight and it seems > like some >> more over another 24 hours. Please oh please let them have decent >> longevity... >> >> >>> From: Carl Schofield <scho@m...> >>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> >>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:36:01 -0500 >>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? >>> >>> Thanks Steve. I don't know whether this will be a problem or not, >>> but I'll check. If you have made any test BO prints with the >>> Nanochromes in your 2100 I'm curious to know how they look and > what >>> dmax. Is the Nanochrome black warm like the Epson and MIS PK? >>> >>> Carl >>> >> > > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by > visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages > to keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed > from the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the > group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” > in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE > “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL > BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF > SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE > THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO > OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
2006-01-15 by john dean
Steve, I hope they are paying you for all your work. They certainly should be. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Shilesh Jani" <shileshjani@b...> wrote:
> > Steve wrote "Please oh please let them have decent > longevity..." > > Will a group prayer help? > > Shilesh > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale > <stevekale@b...> wrote: > > > > I have not done a K only curve but will be doing so in the coming > days. For > > the hue of the K, here's some numbers for you. Calibration chart K > ink line > > at 50% on HPR308: > > > > Step 5: 78.0 0.1 -2.1 > > Step 15: 52.5 -0.5 -2.9 > > Step 25: 36.2 -0.6 -3.0 > > Step 35: 25.8 -0.3 -2.7 > > Step 45: 19.1 0.2 -2.3 > > Step 55: 14.6 0.7 -1.9 > > Step 65: 12.2 1.1 -1.7 > > Step 75: 10.4 1.4 -1.4 > > Step 85: 9.3 1.6 -1.5 > > Step 95: 9.0 1.6 -1.4 > > > > Of course that's not linearised or anything and I would limit K at > 45% (and > > just boost to 50% if at all). It gives you an idea of the hue > though (paper > > white 97.5 0.7 -1.3). Relatively cool which I personally don't > like. > > > > Like that dMax of 2.0? These inks, while looking and feeling dry > out of the > > printer, will drop two big figures of L* overnight and it seems > like some > > more over another 24 hours. Please oh please let them have decent > > longevity... > > > > > > > From: Carl Schofield <scho@m...> > > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:36:01 -0500 > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > > > > > Thanks Steve. I don't know whether this will be a problem or not, > > > but I'll check. If you have made any test BO prints with the > > > Nanochromes in your 2100 I'm curious to know how they look and > what > > > dmax. Is the Nanochrome black warm like the Epson and MIS PK? > > > > > > Carl > > > > > >
2006-01-15 by hogarth@snappydsl.net
Steve Kale wrote: > These inks, while looking and feeling dry out of the > printer, will drop two big figures of L* overnight and it seems like some > more over another 24 hours. Please oh please let them have decent > longevity... Have you tried drying them with a hand held hair dryer? -- Bruce Watson
2006-01-15 by Steve Kale
Pay? LOL nope! I have nothing to do with these guys other than conversations with John E over the last couple of years. I'm just hoping these things, or their successors, come through for us. Time will tell one way or the other...
> From: john dean <deanwork2003@...> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > Steve, > > I hope they are paying you for all your work. They certainly should be. > > >
2006-01-15 by Steve Kale
No. At 45% K limit/boost 50% I'm measuring 11.7 or so straight out of the printer, 10.8 after 2-3 hours and 9.8ish overnight. This will fall to 9.3 or lower (9.0 is the best I've measured) over another day or so.
> From: <hogarth@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:26:09 -0500 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > Steve Kale wrote: > >> These inks, while looking and feeling dry out of the >> printer, will drop two big figures of L* overnight and it seems like some >> more over another 24 hours. Please oh please let them have decent >> longevity... > > Have you tried drying them with a hand held hair dryer? > -- > Bruce Watson >
2006-01-15 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote: > > Steve, > > I hope they are paying you for all your work. They certainly should be. > > I offered to test their inks. The US rep. said they had enough testers and offered to sell me some of the ink, or send me some test prints. I declined both.
2006-01-15 by Steve Kale
FYI here is what the linearised output of a 2K Nanochrome QTR curve looks
like (hopefully this will come through formatted). You can see how cold (-b
is blue in Lab) it is.
Step Dens Lab A B
0 0.029 97.42 0.75 -1.33
2 0.05 95.66 0.76 -1.61
4 0.07 93.94 0.79 -1.84
6 0.091 92.14 0.76 -2.06
8 0.111 90.52 0.79 -2.32
10 0.132 88.84 0.8 -2.48
12 0.155 86.99 0.77 -2.69
14 0.181 84.95 0.74 -2.85
16 0.197 83.75 0.8 -3.05
18 0.225 81.62 0.73 -3.21
20 0.256 79.33 0.75 -3.43
22 0.273 78.09 0.75 -3.54
24 0.292 76.68 0.7 -3.64
26 0.32 74.77 0.73 -3.82
28 0.345 73.00 0.72 -3.95
30 0.374 71.05 0.64 -4.13
32 0.396 69.57 0.63 -4.2
34 0.421 67.97 0.64 -4.33
36 0.455 65.82 0.58 -4.45
38 0.479 64.33 0.58 -4.56
40 0.499 63.12 0.59 -4.66
42 0.539 60.67 0.55 -4.8
44 0.571 58.86 0.55 -4.91
46 0.59 57.75 0.57 -4.99
48 0.614 56.41 0.53 -5.04
50 0.661 53.83 0.53 -5.2
52 0.695 52.02 0.55 -5.28
54 0.716 50.94 0.51 -5.25
56 0.774 48.05 0.42 -5.28
58 0.812 46.22 0.38 -5.24
60 0.834 45.17 0.25 -5.1
62 0.886 42.77 0.18 -5.04
64 0.928 40.91 0.15 -5.04
66 0.96 39.54 0.04 -4.93
68 1.002 37.77 0.04 -4.9
70 1.045 36.03 -0.01 -4.81
72 1.099 33.92 -0.12 -4.65
74 1.151 31.94 -0.13 -4.55
76 1.198 30.26 -0.16 -4.41
78 1.25 28.43 -0.21 -4.21
80 1.282 27.36 -0.14 -4.2
82 1.351 25.14 -0.13 -4.02
84 1.401 23.59 -0.1 -3.88
86 1.447 22.22 -0.02 -3.74
88 1.521 20.09 0.1 -3.47
90 1.579 18.52 0.23 -3.28
92 1.69 15.7 0.56 -2.94
94 1.743 14.43 0.7 -2.73
96 1.826 12.57 0.87 -2.36
98 1.921 10.56 1.27 -1.96
100 1.989 9.21 1.49 -1.372006-01-15 by Carl Schofield
Yes, that certainly is cold. Hard to tell with the LK in there, but may not be as cold with just BO. PKN behaves similarly.
On Jan 15, 2006, at 1:57 PM, Steve Kale wrote: > > FYI here is what the linearised output of a 2K Nanochrome QTR curve > looks > like (hopefully this will come through formatted). You can see how > cold (-b > is blue in Lab) it is. > > > Step Dens Lab A B > 0 0.029 97.42 0.75 -1.33 > 2 0.05 95.66 0.76 -1.61 > 4 0.07 93.94 0.79 -1.84 > 6 0.091 92.14 0.76 -2.06 > 8 0.111 90.52 0.79 -2.32 > 10 0.132 88.84 0.8 -2.48 > 12 0.155 86.99 0.77 -2.69 > 14 0.181 84.95 0.74 -2.85 > 16 0.197 83.75 0.8 -3.05 > 18 0.225 81.62 0.73 -3.21 > 20 0.256 79.33 0.75 -3.43 > 22 0.273 78.09 0.75 -3.54 > 24 0.292 76.68 0.7 -3.64 > 26 0.32 74.77 0.73 -3.82 > 28 0.345 73.00 0.72 -3.95 > 30 0.374 71.05 0.64 -4.13 > 32 0.396 69.57 0.63 -4.2 > 34 0.421 67.97 0.64 -4.33 > 36 0.455 65.82 0.58 -4.45 > 38 0.479 64.33 0.58 -4.56 > 40 0.499 63.12 0.59 -4.66 > 42 0.539 60.67 0.55 -4.8 > 44 0.571 58.86 0.55 -4.91 > 46 0.59 57.75 0.57 -4.99 > 48 0.614 56.41 0.53 -5.04 > 50 0.661 53.83 0.53 -5.2 > 52 0.695 52.02 0.55 -5.28 > 54 0.716 50.94 0.51 -5.25 > 56 0.774 48.05 0.42 -5.28 > 58 0.812 46.22 0.38 -5.24 > 60 0.834 45.17 0.25 -5.1 > 62 0.886 42.77 0.18 -5.04 > 64 0.928 40.91 0.15 -5.04 > 66 0.96 39.54 0.04 -4.93 > 68 1.002 37.77 0.04 -4.9 > 70 1.045 36.03 -0.01 -4.81 > 72 1.099 33.92 -0.12 -4.65 > 74 1.151 31.94 -0.13 -4.55 > 76 1.198 30.26 -0.16 -4.41 > 78 1.25 28.43 -0.21 -4.21 > 80 1.282 27.36 -0.14 -4.2 > 82 1.351 25.14 -0.13 -4.02 > 84 1.401 23.59 -0.1 -3.88 > 86 1.447 22.22 -0.02 -3.74 > 88 1.521 20.09 0.1 -3.47 > 90 1.579 18.52 0.23 -3.28 > 92 1.69 15.7 0.56 -2.94 > 94 1.743 14.43 0.7 -2.73 > 96 1.826 12.57 0.87 -2.36 > 98 1.921 10.56 1.27 -1.96 > 100 1.989 9.21 1.49 -1.37
2006-01-15 by Carl Schofield
Here is PKN BO on Kirkland glossy (a very cold paper) for comparison. Step Dens Lab A B 0.00 0.051 95.52 -0.56 -5.56 - b a | L + 5.00 0.094 91.91 -0.49 -5.08 - b a | L + 10.00 0.147 87.61 -0.42 -4.55 - b a | L + 15.00 0.202 83.31 -0.40 -4.10 - b a | L + 20.00 0.268 78.46 -0.29 -3.19 - b a | L + 25.00 0.327 74.22 -0.29 -2.99 - b a | L + 30.00 0.404 69.07 -0.32 -2.51 - b a | L + 35.00 0.463 65.31 -0.22 -1.87 - b a| L + 40.00 0.540 60.65 -0.18 -1.45 - b a| L + 45.00 0.620 56.06 -0.15 -0.80 - b a| L + 50.00 0.696 51.97 -0.11 -0.70 - b a| L + 55.00 0.789 47.29 -0.13 -0.46 - ba| + 60.00 0.908 41.76 -0.04 0.21 - L ab + 65.00 1.023 36.92 -0.01 0.24 - L ab + 70.00 1.157 31.72 0.03 0.58 - L a b + 75.00 1.291 27.08 0.13 0.63 - L a b + 80.00 1.455 21.96 0.26 0.45 - L | b + 85.00 1.718 15.04 0.35 0.26 - L | b + 90.00 1.929 10.39 0.46 -0.44 - L b | a + 95.00 2.303 4.50 0.20 -1.56 - L b a + 100.00 2.458 3.15 0.11 -1.62 -L b a +
On Jan 15, 2006, at 1:57 PM, Steve Kale wrote: > > FYI here is what the linearised output of a 2K Nanochrome QTR curve > looks > like (hopefully this will come through formatted). You can see how > cold (-b > is blue in Lab) it is. > > > Step Dens Lab A B > 0 0.029 97.42 0.75 -1.33 > 2 0.05 95.66 0.76 -1.61 > 4 0.07 93.94 0.79 -1.84 > 6 0.091 92.14 0.76 -2.06 > 8 0.111 90.52 0.79 -2.32 > 10 0.132 88.84 0.8 -2.48 > 12 0.155 86.99 0.77 -2.69 > 14 0.181 84.95 0.74 -2.85 > 16 0.197 83.75 0.8 -3.05 > 18 0.225 81.62 0.73 -3.21 > 20 0.256 79.33 0.75 -3.43 > 22 0.273 78.09 0.75 -3.54 > 24 0.292 76.68 0.7 -3.64 > 26 0.32 74.77 0.73 -3.82 > 28 0.345 73.00 0.72 -3.95 > 30 0.374 71.05 0.64 -4.13 > 32 0.396 69.57 0.63 -4.2 > 34 0.421 67.97 0.64 -4.33 > 36 0.455 65.82 0.58 -4.45 > 38 0.479 64.33 0.58 -4.56 > 40 0.499 63.12 0.59 -4.66 > 42 0.539 60.67 0.55 -4.8 > 44 0.571 58.86 0.55 -4.91 > 46 0.59 57.75 0.57 -4.99 > 48 0.614 56.41 0.53 -5.04 > 50 0.661 53.83 0.53 -5.2 > 52 0.695 52.02 0.55 -5.28 > 54 0.716 50.94 0.51 -5.25 > 56 0.774 48.05 0.42 -5.28 > 58 0.812 46.22 0.38 -5.24 > 60 0.834 45.17 0.25 -5.1 > 62 0.886 42.77 0.18 -5.04 > 64 0.928 40.91 0.15 -5.04 > 66 0.96 39.54 0.04 -4.93 > 68 1.002 37.77 0.04 -4.9 > 70 1.045 36.03 -0.01 -4.81 > 72 1.099 33.92 -0.12 -4.65 > 74 1.151 31.94 -0.13 -4.55 > 76 1.198 30.26 -0.16 -4.41 > 78 1.25 28.43 -0.21 -4.21 > 80 1.282 27.36 -0.14 -4.2 > 82 1.351 25.14 -0.13 -4.02 > 84 1.401 23.59 -0.1 -3.88 > 86 1.447 22.22 -0.02 -3.74 > 88 1.521 20.09 0.1 -3.47 > 90 1.579 18.52 0.23 -3.28 > 92 1.69 15.7 0.56 -2.94 > 94 1.743 14.43 0.7 -2.73 > 96 1.826 12.57 0.87 -2.36 > 98 1.921 10.56 1.27 -1.96 > 100 1.989 9.21 1.49 -1.37
2006-01-15 by Steve Kale
Carl I just printed a 51-step chart (unlinearized) with Nanochrome K only on HPR. I'll let it dry overnight and will post the results in the morning. It's definitely quite cold. Straight out of the printer the 50% patch reads 46.2, -0.8, -2.9. Steve (I need to buy a paper cutter that can cut my 17in HPR roll paper. Anyone know if I can use my 4800 to slice paper in the interim?)
2006-01-16 by Steve Kale
Carl Here is the unlinearised Nanochrome Black Only data. I do not understand why there is such a shift in colour depending on density. It makes it quite difficult to manage. Steve Step Dens Lab A B 0 0.031 97.27 0.76 -1.29 2 0.042 96.32 0.74 -1.3 4 0.057 95.07 0.69 -1.39 6 0.073 93.72 0.62 -1.46 8 0.091 92.14 0.54 -1.54 10 0.111 90.52 0.48 -1.63 12 0.131 88.88 0.41 -1.68 14 0.153 87.14 0.37 -1.74 16 0.176 85.31 0.31 -1.78 18 0.203 83.26 0.21 -1.85 20 0.238 80.65 0.12 -2.01 22 0.265 78.64 0.07 -2.04 24 0.295 76.49 -0.04 -2.15 26 0.329 74.09 -0.11 -2.21 28 0.359 72.03 -0.17 -2.28 30 0.393 69.8 -0.23 -2.36 32 0.43 67.38 -0.33 -2.44 34 0.459 65.56 -0.38 -2.46 36 0.499 63.09 -0.46 -2.55 38 0.555 59.74 -0.55 -2.61 40 0.586 58.01 -0.59 -2.63 42 0.623 55.92 -0.65 -2.66 44 0.674 53.13 -0.71 -2.7 46 0.703 51.61 -0.75 -2.72 48 0.751 49.18 -0.8 -2.78 50 0.804 46.57 -0.82 -2.78 52 0.843 44.72 -0.82 -2.81 54 0.889 42.62 -0.85 -2.79 56 0.955 39.74 -0.85 -2.81 58 0.985 38.48 -0.81 -2.76 60 1.043 36.09 -0.83 -2.75 62 1.102 33.79 -0.78 -2.73 64 1.141 32.31 -0.74 -2.68 66 1.191 30.51 -0.69 -2.59 68 1.264 27.98 -0.59 -2.55 70 1.298 26.85 -0.54 -2.44 72 1.341 25.44 -0.48 -2.32 74 1.423 22.92 -0.3 -2.28 76 1.46 21.82 -0.2 -2.14 78 1.508 20.45 -0.08 -2.08 80 1.547 19.37 0.05 -1.99 82 1.592 18.18 0.19 -1.95 84 1.641 16.93 0.34 -1.85 86 1.72 14.98 0.69 -1.84 88 1.747 14.34 0.81 -1.77 90 1.789 13.38 0.94 -1.69 92 1.854 11.95 1.22 -1.61 94 1.879 11.42 1.28 -1.54 96 1.905 10.89 1.33 -1.44 98 1.923 10.52 1.38 -1.44 100 1.949 9.99 1.4 -1.4
2006-01-16 by Ernst Dinkla
Steve Kale wrote:
> Carl
>
> Here is the unlinearised Nanochrome Black Only data. I do not understand
> why there is such a shift in colour depending on density. It makes it quite
> difficult to manage.
Is this a hybrid like the Generations Enhanced, a dye +
pigment mix but with the latest dyes + pigments ?
The color shift a result of paper in the low range,
transparency of the ink in the middle range and reflection of
the pigment near Dmax ? A warm black pigment + a cool (blue) dye.
Speculation based on the early Dmax and no gain above, the
long period of "drying" to Dmax and this color shift
observation. Blue not just for making the black more
neutral/cooler but also increasing Dmax (at least Paul and I
thought that a blue transparent ink added could enhance the Dmax).
I also wonder how stable the measurements are. Dye print
measurements fluctuate in time, up and down. Pigment prints
suffer less of that problem. This has been often discussed on
the Colorsync list in relation to proof printing.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-01-16 by Carl Schofield
Thanks Steve. I wonder why they would design the K and LK with such a marked cool balance. Seems like we are always struggling to either warm or cool these black inks towards neutrality. Carl
On Jan 16, 2006, at 5:46 AM, Steve Kale wrote: > Carl > > Here is the unlinearised Nanochrome Black Only data. I do not > understand > why there is such a shift in colour depending on density. It makes > it quite > difficult to manage. > > Steve > > > Step Dens Lab A B > 0 0.031 97.27 0.76 -1.29 > 2 0.042 96.32 0.74 -1.3 > 4 0.057 95.07 0.69 -1.39 > 6 0.073 93.72 0.62 -1.46 > 8 0.091 92.14 0.54 -1.54 > 10 0.111 90.52 0.48 -1.63 > 12 0.131 88.88 0.41 -1.68 > 14 0.153 87.14 0.37 -1.74 > 16 0.176 85.31 0.31 -1.78 > 18 0.203 83.26 0.21 -1.85 > 20 0.238 80.65 0.12 -2.01 > 22 0.265 78.64 0.07 -2.04 > 24 0.295 76.49 -0.04 -2.15 > 26 0.329 74.09 -0.11 -2.21 > 28 0.359 72.03 -0.17 -2.28 > 30 0.393 69.8 -0.23 -2.36 > 32 0.43 67.38 -0.33 -2.44 > 34 0.459 65.56 -0.38 -2.46 > 36 0.499 63.09 -0.46 -2.55 > 38 0.555 59.74 -0.55 -2.61 > 40 0.586 58.01 -0.59 -2.63 > 42 0.623 55.92 -0.65 -2.66 > 44 0.674 53.13 -0.71 -2.7 > 46 0.703 51.61 -0.75 -2.72 > 48 0.751 49.18 -0.8 -2.78 > 50 0.804 46.57 -0.82 -2.78 > 52 0.843 44.72 -0.82 -2.81 > 54 0.889 42.62 -0.85 -2.79 > 56 0.955 39.74 -0.85 -2.81 > 58 0.985 38.48 -0.81 -2.76 > 60 1.043 36.09 -0.83 -2.75 > 62 1.102 33.79 -0.78 -2.73 > 64 1.141 32.31 -0.74 -2.68 > 66 1.191 30.51 -0.69 -2.59 > 68 1.264 27.98 -0.59 -2.55 > 70 1.298 26.85 -0.54 -2.44 > 72 1.341 25.44 -0.48 -2.32 > 74 1.423 22.92 -0.3 -2.28 > 76 1.46 21.82 -0.2 -2.14 > 78 1.508 20.45 -0.08 -2.08 > 80 1.547 19.37 0.05 -1.99 > 82 1.592 18.18 0.19 -1.95 > 84 1.641 16.93 0.34 -1.85 > 86 1.72 14.98 0.69 -1.84 > 88 1.747 14.34 0.81 -1.77 > 90 1.789 13.38 0.94 -1.69 > 92 1.854 11.95 1.22 -1.61 > 94 1.879 11.42 1.28 -1.54 > 96 1.905 10.89 1.33 -1.44 > 98 1.923 10.52 1.38 -1.44 > 100 1.949 9.99 1.4 -1.4 > > > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by > visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages > to keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed > from the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the > group Owner and Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ > in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE > „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL > BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF > SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE > THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO > OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >
2006-01-19 by Editor, Persistence of Vision
Ernst, As I understand it, they are extremely small resin particles encapsulating dyestuff. That's why you are seeing the metameric issues. Some of us expected exactly this issue. While the use of encapsulated dyestuff, instead of encapsulated pigment, ensures a wider gamiut he refractive issues created by the multiple passthroughs (with the current size/structure of particles) are substantial.. It's a greaat idea that isn't exactly, at the current stage of development, coming to the hoped for end results. Ernst Dinkla wrote:
>Steve Kale wrote: > >>Carl >> >>Here is the unlinearised Nanochrome Black Only data. I do not understand >>why there is such a shift in colour depending on density. It makes it quite >>difficult to manage. > > >Is this a hybrid like the Generations Enhanced, a dye + >pigment mix but with the latest dyes + pigments ? >The color shift a result of paper in the low range, >transparency of the ink in the middle range and reflection of >the pigment near Dmax ?
2006-01-19 by Ernst Dinkla
Editor, Persistence of Vision wrote:
> Ernst,
>
> As I understand it, they are extremely small resin particles encapsulating dyestuff. That's why you are seeing the metameric issues. Some of us expected exactly this issue. While the use of encapsulated dyestuff, instead of encapsulated pigment, ensures a wider gamiut he refractive issues created by the multiple passthroughs (with the current size/structure of particles) are substantial.. It's a greaat idea that isn't exactly, at the current stage of development, coming to the hoped for end results.
What Steve described isn't a metameric issue. The shift is
measured within one print, with one light source and one eye.
I have not seen him describing metamerism and so far the
reports do not describe Nanochromes as metameric. I see
however many different reports on the results of the inks.
Wonder whether they are of the same batch.
That "extremely small resin particles encapsulating dyestuff"
could result in refractive issues and by that cause what Steve
measures is not unlikely. But I actually think that it is
either a hybrid ink or a dye colored resin particle (the Bayer
infusion process I have mentioned before) so not the resin
around the dyestuff but the dye impregnated into resin
particles and by that more color at the surface than within
(if there are layers possible within nano sizes like that).
Refractive issues may still be there though, the stuff is
transparent anyway and perfectly uniform particles in the
smallest sizes have little opaqueness. For opacity you better
start with non-uniform larger size particles and metal oxides.
But that doesn't deliver a high Dmax nor do they pass nozzles
easily.
I can imagine the dye infusion of small resin particles far
better than encapsulating dyestuff with a resin. For Dutch
readers I would like to compare the last to: een drol
vastspijkeren op een plank. Nail **** on a board if that
exists in English. Why are issued patents more disclosed than
the applied ones these days ?
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-01-19 by Steve Kale
Firstly, while I'm no expert on these things perhaps I can share a little of my understanding of the inks. There is no "infusion" process associated with the inks. The "infusion" reference, incorrectly applied to these inks on occasion, actually applies to the substrate/coating component of Futures' business, or as they are now called, I believe, Infu6. The word "infusion" comes from the fact that they hold various patents with respect to infusing their ink receptor into the paper manufacturing process - it becomes part of the substrate manufacture rather than being "coated" afterwards. So there is no dye impregnated into anything at all. With regard to the Nanochromes, an OEM ink formulation licensed by Infu6 to InkVillage who then have the inks made and market them, my understanding is that it is the carrier that is the colorant. The "particles" in the ink are actually, I understand, bonding agents, in lay terms, that interact with the paper/material's substrate and coating. So you can imagine how the bonding agents in the ink can be tailored alongside the receptor which is infused into the substrate as the substrate is made for optimum results. It would also be sub-optimal if the receptor was applied as a coating rather than being infused into the actual substrate manufacturing process. In this case, the potential for bonding a higher ink load or colorant density is likely reduced. I'm not seeing any metamerism at all with the Nanochromes. The prints look, to my eye at least, the same under English daylight (LOL!) as under halogen. There is also absolutely no bronzing that I have seen thus far. These things are quite different from UCs which as we know tend to sit on the surface of the paper. I've sent a test image to Daniel Staver and he will likely comment once he's received it. We have a print exchange coming up in the UK soon and my prints will be Nanochromes. Hopefully we'll get additional feedback as people view these. The issue I had was that at least the ink I've received is very cold. I've posted here measurements of both the K and LK ink (and the others). So from a B&W perspective, I've been grappling with warming these inks which of course requires yellow and light magenta. In an earlier post I detailed where I'd gotten to for now. There's still a small deviation from neutral in the 70-90K region which I'd like to improve on, largely because it's a little -a and +b which sits in the yellow-green camp. If anything I'd rather it were biased to the other side of the axis, if I can't get it to be neutral. BTW I do believe you can read the patents on the infusion process. Cheers Steve PS: as good as these things seem to be for now, they're nothing to me at least without reasonable longevity. And for that we await test results.
> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:48:30 +0100 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > Editor, Persistence of Vision wrote: >> Ernst, >> >> As I understand it, they are extremely small resin particles encapsulating >> dyestuff. That's why you are seeing the metameric issues. Some of us >> expected exactly this issue. While the use of encapsulated dyestuff, instead >> of encapsulated pigment, ensures a wider gamiut he refractive issues created >> by the multiple passthroughs (with the current size/structure of particles) >> are substantial.. It's a greaat idea that isn't exactly, at the current stage >> of development, coming to the hoped for end results. > > What Steve described isn't a metameric issue. The shift is > measured within one print, with one light source and one eye. > I have not seen him describing metamerism and so far the > reports do not describe Nanochromes as metameric. I see > however many different reports on the results of the inks. > Wonder whether they are of the same batch. > > That "extremely small resin particles encapsulating dyestuff" > could result in refractive issues and by that cause what Steve > measures is not unlikely. But I actually think that it is > either a hybrid ink or a dye colored resin particle (the Bayer > infusion process I have mentioned before) so not the resin > around the dyestuff but the dye impregnated into resin > particles and by that more color at the surface than within > (if there are layers possible within nano sizes like that). > Refractive issues may still be there though, the stuff is > transparent anyway and perfectly uniform particles in the > smallest sizes have little opaqueness. For opacity you better > start with non-uniform larger size particles and metal oxides. > But that doesn't deliver a high Dmax nor do they pass nozzles > easily. > > I can imagine the dye infusion of small resin particles far > better than encapsulating dyestuff with a resin. For Dutch > readers I would like to compare the last to: een drol > vastspijkeren op een plank. Nail **** on a board if that > exists in English. Why are issued patents more disclosed than > the applied ones these days ? > > -- > Ernst Dinkla
2006-01-20 by Editor, Persistence of Vision
Steve Kale wrote: >Firstly, while I'm no expert on these things perhaps I can share a little of >my understanding of the inks. > Thank YOU Steve! If the carrier is the colorant and the particles served only as "bonding agents," will we not have both longevity differences and max ink load differences between papers/media incorporating/not incorporating the receptor?.. If we will, then it's sort of a closed loop system of sorts until/unless the receptor is so generally applied by all media manufacturers as to be as "generic"or broad of application as the current difference between coated and uncoated media. Just so no-one thinks I am knocking this new option. To be clear, even if the latter is the case, the technology could certainly be a significant enough imporvement over current media/ink combinations that such ubiquity could conceivably result. --
2006-01-20 by Ernst Dinkla
Steve Kale wrote:
> Firstly, while I'm no expert on these things perhaps I can share a little of
> my understanding of the inks. There is no "infusion" process associated
> with the inks. The "infusion" reference, incorrectly applied to these inks
> on occasion, actually applies to the substrate/coating component of Futures'
> business, or as they are now called, I believe, Infu6. The word "infusion"
> comes from the fact that they hold various patents with respect to infusing
> their ink receptor into the paper manufacturing process - it becomes part of
> the substrate manufacture rather than being "coated" afterwards. So there
> is no dye impregnated into anything at all.
Good. That's making things much more clear. Then it is
essentially a dye incorporating a second component to seal the
bond with the infused paper. Then I hope they get rid of the
infusion term in their Nanochrome inks advertising on the
following sites:
http://www.inkvillage.com/
NanoChrome\ufffd inkjet ink with Hybrid Resin Infusion Technology
result in prints with an exceptionally wide gamut for true
reproduction of colors that are neutral and therefore true to
the original image.
http://www.ussublimation.com/Bulk_Printer_Ink_in_Bottles.htm
Same line of text + the line: Tested over 100 yrs fade
resistance. (I thought they would postpone that claim till
there were tests done)
Not to mention the text on Futures own webpages:
To take full advantage of the gamut width, brought about by
the Infu6 Inks and media,
End of quotes.
Or should I interpret it that the inks only deliver that
quality on the infused papers ? I would have phrased it in
another way then.
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-01-20 by Steve Kale
Well I guess it's not the first "blunder" made by the InkVillage marketing department but we also know that marketing departments often take a bit of latitude. I don't let the names bother me. I don't see a problem with the Futures language given they are changing their name to Infu6: Infu6 have inks and media hence "Infu6 inks and media". Again, subject to longevity tests, these inks perform very well on non Infu6 media. The tests I've done in the most detail are on Hahnemuhle Photorag 308. I've not had the chance to test, to my knowledge, papers that have used Infu6's infusion technology. I say "to the best of my knowledge" because I believe they have licensed their technology to a number of paper manufacturers. Infu6 is not in a position to disclose who these licensees are but I'm willing to bet that these are firms which supply some big names we are all familiar with. It could well be that some of the newer papers in the market are beginning to explore technologies brought by Infu6, as I'm sure other companies are exploring ways to use the technology in different ways to get around the patents - such is business. The coordination of media and ink is nothing new. We all know that Epson is beginning to get better at this. I would consider the performance of Infu6 designed inks to be no different. They will in all likelihood perform better on substrates embedded with their ink receptor. They seem to perform ok on substrates that don't as well. "Editor" raised a valid point. As soon as one moves away from OEM ink (or their replicas) and OEM media there are potential issues with ink limits. This again is nothing new. When we run non-Epson papers through our machines we often have to explore different paper settings. In large part this is simply testing the different ink limits embedded in the Epson driver to see which one might work the best. If an ink is significantly different from Epson's solution then the more likely the choice of ink limits embedded in the Epson driver will not be appropriate. This was the subject of the preliminary tests I did a few days ago (posted here and on the Wide Format group). The Epson driver does not allow us to control ink limits and linearization - understandably in many respects. Epson is not in the business of RIP design per se. They provide a solution for use with their printers and their ink and media. For all the rest there are a bunch of other third party solutions. My initial tests of the Nanochromes using the Epson 2100 driver suggested that the ink limits embedded in it (for EAM and Epson Premium Semigloss paper settings at least) were not appropriate for these inks on the media I tested due to the fact that they peaked in density at ink loads less than the limit in the driver. That's not to say that the colorant density of the inks is too high. A paper developed with the infusion process may, for example, be able to absorb and bond with a higher ink load and deliver increased density. It does, however, and understandably when you think about it, suggest that one is not going to get the best results from these inks using a driver designed for a totally different ink set and a narrow range of media. A RIP which offers full control over ink limits, linearization etc is going to be needed for optimum results. It's my understanding that this was the rationale that led to some members of the Infu6/Futures team (I think this part of the business is separate from Infu6) working with R9 Corporation to develop the so-called PocketRIP that we keep hearing snippets about. I suspect the aim was to provide a RIP that was competitively priced and hence make it easier for people to get the best out of the inks. So within the broad Futures/Infu6 umbrella you have development of "infusion" technology for introducing ink receptors directly into the manufacturing process of substrates (as opposed to coating them), new ink designs (the first formulation being licensed to InkVillage for manufacture and marketing) which understandably are tailored to work with these ink receptor formulations, and a RIP so that people can optimise the performance of the "system" rather than jamming a round peg into a square hole by using the Epson driver. That's about all I know but I think this should help put things in perspective at least. Whether the first lot of product stacks up is still to be proven. The Nanochrome formulation on paper seems to perform rather well on matte media and a little behind Epson PK on photo media (I found that Nanochrome K peaked in density at L*5.6 at 45% ink limit using QTR on Crane's Silver Rag), but the performance is excellent for a single black. I don't think I've really tested colour gamut properly as I was using the Epson driver with its embedded ink limits. To the best of my knowledge I have not tested a media with Infu6 technology yet. And of course we still haven't seen any longevity/fade test data.
> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:25:52 +0100 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > Steve Kale wrote: >> Firstly, while I'm no expert on these things perhaps I can share a little of >> my understanding of the inks. There is no "infusion" process associated >> with the inks. The "infusion" reference, incorrectly applied to these inks >> on occasion, actually applies to the substrate/coating component of Futures' >> business, or as they are now called, I believe, Infu6. The word "infusion" >> comes from the fact that they hold various patents with respect to infusing >> their ink receptor into the paper manufacturing process - it becomes part of >> the substrate manufacture rather than being "coated" afterwards. So there >> is no dye impregnated into anything at all. > > Good. That's making things much more clear. Then it is > essentially a dye incorporating a second component to seal the > bond with the infused paper. Then I hope they get rid of the > infusion term in their Nanochrome inks advertising on the > following sites: > > http://www.inkvillage.com/ > > NanoChrome inkjet ink with Hybrid Resin Infusion Technology > result in prints with an exceptionally wide gamut for true > reproduction of colors that are neutral and therefore true to > the original image. > > http://www.ussublimation.com/Bulk_Printer_Ink_in_Bottles.htm > > Same line of text + the line: Tested over 100 yrs fade > resistance. (I thought they would postpone that claim till > there were tests done) > > Not to mention the text on Futures own webpages: > > To take full advantage of the gamut width, brought about by > the Infu6 Inks and media, > > End of quotes. > > Or should I interpret it that the inks only deliver that > quality on the infused papers ? I would have phrased it in > another way then. > > > -- > Ernst Dinkla > > > www.pigment-print.com > ( unvollendet ) > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership > without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the > membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and > Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² AND > ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE ³OWNER² AND ³MODERATORS² OF > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
2006-01-20 by Ernst Dinkla
Steve Kale wrote:
> Again, subject to longevity tests, these inks perform very well on non Infu6
> media. The tests I've done in the most detail are on Hahnemuhle Photorag
> 308. I've not had the chance to test, to my knowledge, papers that have
> used Infu6's infusion technology. I say "to the best of my knowledge"
> because I believe they have licensed their technology to a number of paper
> manufacturers. Infu6 is not in a position to disclose who these licensees
> are but I'm willing to bet that these are firms which supply some big names
> we are all familiar with. It could well be that some of the newer papers in
> the market are beginning to explore technologies brought by Infu6, as I'm
> sure other companies are exploring ways to use the technology in different
> ways to get around the patents - such is business. The coordination of
> media and ink is nothing new. We all know that Epson is beginning to get
> better at this. I would consider the performance of Infu6 designed inks to
> be no different. They will in all likelihood perform better on substrates
> embedded with their ink receptor. They seem to perform ok on substrates
> that don't as well.
We know at least one art paper that has the infusion,
Bockingford Inkjet, see the old Harold Johnson report:
http://www.dpandi.com/newsreviews/reviews/bock/
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-01-20 by John
Wrong again Ernst, you are out of date. Accurate speculation is obviously not your speciality.
JE
Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
Steve Kale wrote:
> Again, subject to longevity tests, these inks perform very well on non Infu6
> media. The tests I've done in the most detail are on Hahnemuhle Photorag
> 308. I've not had the chance to test, to my knowledge, papers that have
> used Infu6's infusion technology. I say "to the best of my knowledge"
> because I believe they have licensed their technology to a number of paper
> manufacturers. Infu6 is not in a position to disclose who these licensees
> are but I'm willing to bet that these are firms which supply some big names
> we are all familiar with. It could well be that some of the newer papers in
> the market are beginning to explore technologies brought by Infu6, as I'm
> sure other companies are exploring ways to use the technology in different
> ways to get around the patents - such is business. The coordination of
> media and ink is nothing new. We all know that Epson is beginning to get
> better at this. I would consider the performance of Infu6 designed inks to
> be no different. They will in all likelihood perform better on substrates
> embedded with their ink receptor. They seem to perform ok on substrates
> that don't as well.
We know at least one art paper that has the infusion,
Bockingford Inkjet, see the old Harold Johnson report:
http://www.dpandi.com/newsreviews/reviews/bock/
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-01-20 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John <charleysfabrics@y...> wrote: > > Wrong again Ernst, you are out of date. Accurate speculation is obviously not your speciality. > > JE Would you be willing/permitted to enlighten us then?
2006-01-20 by Steve Kale
That seems a bit harsh given the contents of the article he referred to. Enough to say he's out of date and provide an update if possible?
> From: John <charleysfabrics@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:46:42 +0000 (GMT) > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > Wrong again Ernst, you are out of date. Accurate speculation is obviously not > your speciality. > > JE > > Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote: > Steve Kale wrote: > >> Again, subject to longevity tests, these inks perform very well on non Infu6 >> media. The tests I've done in the most detail are on Hahnemuhle Photorag >> 308. I've not had the chance to test, to my knowledge, papers that have >> used Infu6's infusion technology. I say "to the best of my knowledge" >> because I believe they have licensed their technology to a number of paper >> manufacturers. Infu6 is not in a position to disclose who these licensees >> are but I'm willing to bet that these are firms which supply some big names >> we are all familiar with. It could well be that some of the newer papers in >> the market are beginning to explore technologies brought by Infu6, as I'm >> sure other companies are exploring ways to use the technology in different >> ways to get around the patents - such is business. The coordination of >> media and ink is nothing new. We all know that Epson is beginning to get >> better at this. I would consider the performance of Infu6 designed inks to >> be no different. They will in all likelihood perform better on substrates >> embedded with their ink receptor. They seem to perform ok on substrates >> that don't as well. > > We know at least one art paper that has the infusion, > Bockingford Inkjet, see the old Harold Johnson report: > > http://www.dpandi.com/newsreviews/reviews/bock/ > > > Ernst > > -- > Ernst Dinkla >
2006-01-20 by Ernst Dinkla
John wrote:
> Wrong again Ernst, you are out of date. Accurate speculation is obviously not your speciality.
>
> JE
> We know at least one art paper that has the infusion,
> Bockingford Inkjet, see the old Harold Johnson report:
>
> http://www.dpandi.com/newsreviews/reviews/bock/
>
>
> Ernst
Accurate speculation doesn't exist. Accurate information could
exist. What's wrong with the information about Bockingford
then? Should we wipe that off the board because it is no
longer using your infusion process or do you mean it isn't the
only paper made with that infusion ? I didn't speculate that
it is the only paper .........
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-01-20 by john dean
It all depends on the knowledge and expertise of the speculator, and most importantly what his agenda is. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John > <charleysfabrics@y...> wrote: > > > > Wrong again Ernst, you are out of date. Accurate speculation is > obviously not your speciality. > > > > JE > > > Would you be willing/permitted to enlighten us then? >
2006-01-20 by Walt Mucha
So what you are saying is you really don't know how long these inks will last. Don't know anything about the technology involved in these inks. You suspect some company/s are using infusion technology with their papers. The inks perform well on non infusion papers but not with the Epson driver so a RIP is needed and the BO is too cool in color and is problematic when trying to get a nuetral balance even with QTR. So even with a RIP these inks may be a problem. Then you say that this is not Inkvillages first blunder and you don't have a problem with Futures language. I don't think anyone at inkvillage knows what their talking about. What is it EXACTLY you are trying to say? Walt
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...] Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 12:22 AM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? Well I guess it's not the first "blunder" made by the InkVillage marketing department but we also know that marketing departments often take a bit of latitude. I don't let the names bother me. I don't see a problem with the Futures language given they are changing their name to Infu6: Infu6 have inks and media hence "Infu6 inks and media". Again, subject to longevity tests, these inks perform very well on non Infu6 media. The tests I've done in the most detail are on Hahnemuhle Photorag 308. I've not had the chance to test, to my knowledge, papers that have used Infu6's infusion technology. I say "to the best of my knowledge" because I believe they have licensed their technology to a number of paper manufacturers. Infu6 is not in a position to disclose who these licensees are but I'm willing to bet that these are firms which supply some big names we are all familiar with. It could well be that some of the newer papers in the market are beginning to explore technologies brought by Infu6, as I'm sure other companies are exploring ways to use the technology in different ways to get around the patents - such is business. The coordination of media and ink is nothing new. We all know that Epson is beginning to get better at this. I would consider the performance of Infu6 designed inks to be no different. They will in all likelihood perform better on substrates embedded with their ink receptor. They seem to perform ok on substrates that don't as well. "Editor" raised a valid point. As soon as one moves away from OEM ink (or their replicas) and OEM media there are potential issues with ink limits. This again is nothing new. When we run non-Epson papers through our machines we often have to explore different paper settings. In large part this is simply testing the different ink limits embedded in the Epson driver to see which one might work the best. If an ink is significantly different from Epson's solution then the more likely the choice of ink limits embedded in the Epson driver will not be appropriate. This was the subject of the preliminary tests I did a few days ago (posted here and on the Wide Format group). The Epson driver does not allow us to control ink limits and linearization - understandably in many respects. Epson is not in the business of RIP design per se. They provide a solution for use with their printers and their ink and media. For all the rest there are a bunch of other third party solutions. My initial tests of the Nanochromes using the Epson 2100 driver suggested that the ink limits embedded in it (for EAM and Epson Premium Semigloss paper settings at least) were not appropriate for these inks on the media I tested due to the fact that they peaked in density at ink loads less than the limit in the driver. That's not to say that the colorant density of the inks is too high. A paper developed with the infusion process may, for example, be able to absorb and bond with a higher ink load and deliver increased density. It does, however, and understandably when you think about it, suggest that one is not going to get the best results from these inks using a driver designed for a totally different ink set and a narrow range of media. A RIP which offers full control over ink limits, linearization etc is going to be needed for optimum results. It's my understanding that this was the rationale that led to some members of the Infu6/Futures team (I think this part of the business is separate from Infu6) working with R9 Corporation to develop the so-called PocketRIP that we keep hearing snippets about. I suspect the aim was to provide a RIP that was competitively priced and hence make it easier for people to get the best out of the inks. So within the broad Futures/Infu6 umbrella you have development of "infusion" technology for introducing ink receptors directly into the manufacturing process of substrates (as opposed to coating them), new ink designs (the first formulation being licensed to InkVillage for manufacture and marketing) which understandably are tailored to work with these ink receptor formulations, and a RIP so that people can optimise the performance of the "system" rather than jamming a round peg into a square hole by using the Epson driver. That's about all I know but I think this should help put things in perspective at least. Whether the first lot of product stacks up is still to be proven. The Nanochrome formulation on paper seems to perform rather well on matte media and a little behind Epson PK on photo media (I found that Nanochrome K peaked in density at L*5.6 at 45% ink limit using QTR on Crane's Silver Rag), but the performance is excellent for a single black. I don't think I've really tested colour gamut properly as I was using the Epson driver with its embedded ink limits. To the best of my knowledge I have not tested a media with Infu6 technology yet. And of course we still haven't seen any longevity/fade test data. > From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@chello.nl> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:25:52 +0100 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > Steve Kale wrote: >> Firstly, while I'm no expert on these things perhaps I can share a little of >> my understanding of the inks. There is no "infusion" process associated >> with the inks. The "infusion" reference, incorrectly applied to these inks >> on occasion, actually applies to the substrate/coating component of Futures' >> business, or as they are now called, I believe, Infu6. The word "infusion" >> comes from the fact that they hold various patents with respect to infusing >> their ink receptor into the paper manufacturing process - it becomes part of >> the substrate manufacture rather than being "coated" afterwards. So there >> is no dye impregnated into anything at all. > > Good. That's making things much more clear. Then it is > essentially a dye incorporating a second component to seal the > bond with the infused paper. Then I hope they get rid of the > infusion term in their Nanochrome inks advertising on the > following sites: > > http://www.inkvillage.com/ > > NanoChrome inkjet ink with Hybrid Resin Infusion Technology > result in prints with an exceptionally wide gamut for true > reproduction of colors that are neutral and therefore true to > the original image. > > http://www.ussublimation.com/Bulk_Printer_Ink_in_Bottles.htm > > Same line of text + the line: Tested over 100 yrs fade > resistance. (I thought they would postpone that claim till > there were tests done) > > Not to mention the text on Futures own webpages: > > To take full advantage of the gamut width, brought about by > the Infu6 Inks and media, > > End of quotes. > > Or should I interpret it that the inks only deliver that > quality on the infused papers ? I would have phrased it in > another way then. > > > -- > Ernst Dinkla > > > www.pigment-print.com > ( unvollendet ) > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership > without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the > membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and > Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² AND > ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU > FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY > DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, > USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE ³OWNER² AND ³MODERATORS² OF > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR > TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2006-01-21 by Steve Kale
Yes all of the below and all the rest you would have liked to have written except for the bits that clearly indicate that you did not read properly what I have said. All that and just some simple feedback on my test of the inks thus far and sharing what else I know. That and the fact that my neutral curve prints look friggin' fantastic. Please trim your posts.
> From: Walt Mucha <wkm@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:54:23 +0000 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > So what you are saying is you really don't know how long these inks will last. > Don't know anything about the technology involved in these inks. You suspect > some company/s are using infusion technology with their papers. The inks > perform well on non infusion papers but not with the Epson driver so a RIP is > needed and the BO is too cool in color and is problematic when trying to get a > nuetral balance even with QTR. So even with a RIP these inks may be a problem. > Then you say that this is not Inkvillages first blunder and you don't have a > problem with Futures language. I don't think anyone at inkvillage knows what > their talking about. What is it EXACTLY you are trying to say? > > Walt
2006-01-21 by Editor, P.O.V. Image Service
john dean wrote:
>It all depends on the knowledge and expertise of the speculator, and
>most importantly what his agenda is.
>
>
>
Ok, well.. OBVIOUSLY, the intent of Mr Dean is NOT to objectively
factually INFORM this group as a whole, but to spin... There's an agenda.
--
Keith
Keith Krebs
"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
Publications), at:
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and the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User Community at:
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"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
guys"
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-01-21 by Mark Savoia
Hey moderator, is it time to take this "discussion" off line? It seems like it is getting personal. Mark On Jan 20, 2006, at 7:09 PM, Steve Kale wrote: > Yes all of the below and all the rest you would have liked to have > written > except for the bits that clearly indicate that you did not read > properly > what I have said. All that and just some simple feedback on my > test of the > inks thus far and sharing what else I know. That and the fact that my > neutral curve prints look friggin' fantastic. > > Please trim your posts. > > > From: Walt Mucha <wkm@...> > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:54:23 +0000 > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > > > So what you are saying is you really don't know how long these > inks will last. > > Don't know anything about the technology involved in these inks. > You suspect > > some company/s are using infusion technology with their papers. > The inks > > perform well on non infusion papers but not with the Epson driver > so a RIP is > > needed and the BO is too cool in color and is problematic when > trying to get a > > nuetral balance even with QTR. So even with a RIP these inks may > be a problem. > > Then you say that this is not Inkvillages first blunder and you > don't have a > > problem with Futures language. I don't think anyone at inkvillage > knows what > > their talking about. What is it EXACTLY you are trying to say? > > > > Walt > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other > resources as they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by > visiting this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages > to keep them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed > from the membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be > removed from the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the > group Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� > in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE > �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL > NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL > BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF > SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE > THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO > OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR > CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO > GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > Visit your group "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-01-21 by Editor, P.O.V. Image Service
Mark Savoia wrote:
>Hey moderator, is it time to take this "discussion" off line? It
>seems like it is getting personal.
>Mark
>
>
>
Mark,
It's rapidly becoming clear that the people from IJV and Futures have
every intention of pushing it that way to shut down any discussion about
the products they don't like. If you allow the fact that some
individuals choose to immediately shut down a thread, then anytime
someone wnats to shut a thread down they will simply push those buttons.
Neither Ernst, nor I, nor many otheers on this list make a single dime
from the sales of any inkjet products, other than perhaps final prints.
The VERY argument you are making was made by those on the Old Leben list
who wanted (for whatever reasons) to shut down discussion of the orange
shift. Fortunately, even after Mitch Leben banned several of those
involved in researching that issue, the issue was carried forward. We
have more advances because that episode was public than we would have
had without it.. These discussions, where real dialogue and critique are
met and where such is encouraged, are quite often more useful than
Shutterbug or "other website" style reviews where not a single product
is called a "dog." Note, I am NOT int the least calling the Nanos a dog
of a product, I think they may well represent a major advance. However,
that does not mean that they are perfect for all users, or in all
respects. Informed consumers deserve the chance to hear the data, and
when people purposely poison the debate with personal attack, IMHO the
specific offender should be moderated instead of the thread being shut down.
--
Keith
Keith Krebs
"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
guys"
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-01-21 by Editor, P.O.V. Image Service
Editor, P.O.V. Image Service wrote:
> It's rapidly becoming clear that the people from IJV and Futures have
> every intention of pushing it that way to shut down any discussion
> about the products they don't like.
Should have read: "It's rapidly becoming clear that certain individuals
have every intention of..." I don't want to restrict my comments, even
implicitly, to just employees, etc. Nor am I accuse anyome of improper
motives.
Everyone needs to keep in mind that the developers, manufacturers, and
vendors of some products in this market segment have a LOT of money
invested in, a lot of time and hard work invested in, and a significant
potential individual return riding on these discussions and similar
ones... Those are NOT nefariosu motives, it's simple reality and it's
better not to have any discussion than it is to have positive AND
negative onlist discussion in some cases..
Keith
Keith Krebs
"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
guys"
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-01-21 by dlruckus
Hello Keith. At risk of being shot at dawn for quoting you, just a question. I,m not sure that I understand you here. Did you truly mean to say a onesided discussion might be a good thing? That is normaly considered propaganda no matter who might be doing it or what side of the equation it falls on or even what it is about. Note that I could not care less what happens commercially on the issue either way nor should there be any need to. If, as hoped by many, the products prove out, it won't matter who says what, when or where. If they do not, the same is true. IMHO it is all revolving around lots of heat and smoke but there is as yet no fire in the pot :) Regards Duane --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor, P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@p...> wrote:
> Everyone needs to keep in mind that the developers, manufacturers, and > vendors of some products in this market segment have a LOT of money > invested in, a lot of time and hard work invested in, and a significant > potential individual return riding on these discussions and similar > ones... Those are NOT nefariosu motives, it's simple reality and it's > better not to have any discussion than it is to have positive AND > negative onlist discussion in some cases.. > Keith > > > Keith Krebs
2006-01-21 by Mark Savoia
Keith, That's your call, I just thought it was getting immature. I will just hit the delete button. Thanks for the response. Mark
On Jan 20, 2006, at 9:32 PM, Editor, P.O.V. Image Service wrote: > and > when people purposely poison the debate with personal attack, IMHO the > specific offender should be moderated instead of the thread being > shut down. > > > -- > Keith
2006-01-21 by John
Thank you for asking Greg,
The answer in principle is yes. Subject to the moderators agreement.
You are right in asking whether or not I will be permitted to talk about everything, the answer is I am restricted about some things under NDA's as are our original beta testers, although some of them are sailing close to the wind in that direction and I would urge them to think carefully as I also have to do in these circumstances.
I am prepared to discuss the infusion technology in general principals as we have now international patents granted so the principles are a matter of public record, I can also discuss the range of Papers Films and Fabrics and interior Design Products which will be available during this year, and how they differ from the conventional products.
I can't discuss who is using the technology because of the NDA's, and also as a matter of business prudence, and the fact that there are several more international patent applications in hand.
I can't discuss details about the inks or who is licencing them, just generalities and what the advantages will be when used with the Infusion technology substrates and the PocketRIP.
I can write a general statement or answer questions,
What I will not do is to get into technology arguments or answering certain vested interests questions about how we make the products.
Or I can continue answering the many off group questions that are sent to me direct, on a direct one to one basis, and yours would be welcome.
My best regards
John Edmunds
Greg <dfaprinting@...> wrote:
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, John
<charleysfabrics@y...> wrote:
>
> Wrong again Ernst, you are out of date. Accurate speculation is
obviously not your speciality.
>
> JE
Would you be willing/permitted to enlighten us then?
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-01-21 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service
dlruckus wrote:
>Hello Keith.
>At risk of being shot at dawn for quoting you, just a question.
>
BWAHAHAHAHA! Trust me, I have a much thicker skin these days. Spend a
year or two dealing with 17-21 y/o models and you will develop one (even
if only to prevent being killed by errant emotional arrows not even
aimed your way). LOL
> I,m
>not sure that I understand you here. Did you truly mean to say a
>onesided discussion might be a good thing? ~
>
No, I meant to say some others might see it that way. Goes to show that
I should not write after 8 hours of coursework and another two of
readings. ;-)
I'm glad you asked though, bc I reviewed the post later that night and
realized I had written so poorly. On the other hand I didn't want to
inundate the list with posts..
The line that read:
"Those are NOT nefariosu motives, it's simple reality and it's
better not to have any discussion than it is to have positive AND
negative onlist discussion in some cases.."
Should have read something like:
"Those are NOT nefarious motives, it's simple reality that for some involved in promoting a particular product (whatever that product may be) it may well be
seen by some as better therfore (at least in the short term) not to have any discussion than it is to have positive AND negative onlist discussion in some cases.."
>That is normaly considered
>propaganda no matter who might be doing it or what side of the
>equation it falls on or even what it is about.
>
Agreed.
>Note that I could not
>care less what happens commercially on the issue either way nor should
>there be any need to. If, as hoped by many, the products prove out, it
>won't matter who says what, when or where. If they do not, the same is
>true.
>IMHO it is all revolving around lots of heat and smoke but there is as
>yet no fire in the pot :)
>
>
Agreed again!
Keith
Keith Krebs
"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
guys"
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Keith Krebs, 2001-2006, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for the
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{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }2006-01-21 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service
Mark Savoia wrote:
>Keith,
>That's your call, I just thought it was getting immature. I will just
>hit the delete button. Thanks for the response.
>Mark
>
>
Hey, your opinion is as valid as mine.. I was simply advocating my own
personal position.
Keith
Keith Krebs
"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
guys"
****************************************************************
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{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }2006-01-22 by Ernst Dinkla
John wrote:
> You are right in asking whether or not I will be permitted to talk about everything, the answer is I am restricted about some things under NDA's as are our original beta testers, although some of them are sailing close to the wind in that direction and I would urge them to think carefully as I also have to do in these circumstances.
>
> I am prepared to discuss the infusion technology in general principals as we have now international patents granted so the principles are a matter of public record, I can also discuss the range of Papers Films and Fabrics and interior Design Products which will be available during this year, and how they differ from the conventional products.
>
> I can't discuss who is using the technology because of the NDA's, and also as a matter of business prudence, and the fact that there are several more international patent applications in hand.
>
> I can't discuss details about the inks or who is licencing them, just generalities and what the advantages will be when used with the Infusion technology substrates and the PocketRIP.
>
> I can write a general statement or answer questions,
>
> What I will not do is to get into technology arguments or answering certain vested interests questions about how we make the products.
>
> Or I can continue answering the many off group questions that are sent to me direct, on a direct one to one basis, and yours would be welcome.
I'm not Greg but a general statement would be nice. What
infused papers there will be. What the compatibility is and
what the advantages are with the licensed inks. What the
compatibility of the licensed inks is with the papers that are
now used by early adopters. I don't think that the list
members on this list and the wide format list would object to
any first hand information they can get.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-01-22 by John
Thank you Ernst,
as I promised the Modurator before, I am waiting for his agreement and then I will tell you what I can about the Papers Films and Fabrics and other substrate due this year also what I am allowed about the Infu6's Inks as distinct from any others.
Regards John
P.S. I am as frustrated about what I can and can't say as everyone else!
Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
John wrote:
> You are right in asking whether or not I will be permitted to talk about everything, the answer is I am restricted about some things under NDA's as are our original beta testers, although some of them are sailing close to the wind in that direction and I would urge them to think carefully as I also have to do in these circumstances.
>
> I am prepared to discuss the infusion technology in general principals as we have now international patents granted so the principles are a matter of public record, I can also discuss the range of Papers Films and Fabrics and interior Design Products which will be available during this year, and how they differ from the conventional products.
>
> I can't discuss who is using the technology because of the NDA's, and also as a matter of business prudence, and the fact that there are several more international patent applications in hand.
>
> I can't discuss details about the inks or who is licencing them, just generalities and what the advantages will be when used with the Infusion technology substrates and the PocketRIP.
>
> I can write a general statement or answer questions,
>
> What I will not do is to get into technology arguments or answering certain vested interests questions about how we make the products.
>
> Or I can continue answering the many off group questions that are sent to me direct, on a direct one to one basis, and yours would be welcome.
I'm not Greg but a general statement would be nice. What
infused papers there will be. What the compatibility is and
what the advantages are with the licensed inks. What the
compatibility of the licensed inks is with the papers that are
now used by early adopters. I don't think that the list
members on this list and the wide format list would object to
any first hand information they can get.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-01-23 by Steve Kale
I'm glad this conversation has returned to a more friendly discourse. I am, however, a little surprised by the requests for forward looking statements as to Infu6/Futures products given the scathing attacks made in the opposite direction on this forum and, particularly, the wide format forum by certain members of both. (These comments are not directed at Ernst.) Personally, if I were advising John I'd tell him not to talk here about any of his products in development until they are released commercially. I'd encourage him to try to negotiate where possible the ability to disclose the fact that clients of his are using his technology in specific products marketed and commercially available to us but this is unlikely to be easy in the very competitive and fast-moving (and murky) world of inkjet media. If I were John I'd say nothing more at the moment than that which we already know. Infu6 develops inks and ink receptor infusions for inkjet media. It is in the business of licensing this technology to third parties and may or may not develop product lines to be marketed under its own label in the future. They owe us no forward looking statements, particularly given recent behaviour.
> From: John <charleysfabrics@...> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:16:25 +0000 (GMT) > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Nanochrome BO printing? > > Thank you Ernst, > as I promised the Modurator before, I am waiting for > his agreement and then I will tell you what I can about the Papers Films and > Fabrics and other substrate due this year also what I am allowed about the > Infu6's Inks as distinct from any others. > > Regards John > > P.S. I am as frustrated about what I can and can't say as everyone else! > > Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> wrote: > John wrote: > > >> You are right in asking whether or not I will be permitted to talk about >> everything, the answer is I am restricted about some things under NDA's as >> are our original beta testers, although some of them are sailing close to the >> wind in that direction and I would urge them to think carefully as I also >> have to do in these circumstances. >> >> I am prepared to discuss the infusion technology in general principals as >> we have now international patents granted so the principles are a matter of >> public record, I can also discuss the range of Papers Films and Fabrics and >> interior Design Products which will be available during this year, and how >> they differ from the conventional products. >> >> I can't discuss who is using the technology because of the NDA's, and also >> as a matter of business prudence, and the fact that there are several more >> international patent applications in hand. >> >> I can't discuss details about the inks or who is licencing them, just >> generalities and what the advantages will be when used with the Infusion >> technology substrates and the PocketRIP. >> >> I can write a general statement or answer questions, >> >> What I will not do is to get into technology arguments or answering certain >> vested interests questions about how we make the products. >> >> Or I can continue answering the many off group questions that are sent to >> me direct, on a direct one to one basis, and yours would be welcome. > > > I'm not Greg but a general statement would be nice. What > infused papers there will be. What the compatibility is and > what the advantages are with the licensed inks. What the > compatibility of the licensed inks is with the papers that are > now used by early adopters. I don't think that the list > members on this list and the wide format list would object to > any first hand information they can get. > > Ernst > > --
2006-01-23 by Ernst Dinkla
Steve Kale wrote:
> I'm glad this conversation has returned to a more friendly discourse. I am,
> however, a little surprised by the requests for forward looking statements
> as to Infu6/Futures products given the scathing attacks made in the opposite
> direction on this forum and, particularly, the wide format forum by certain
> members of both. (These comments are not directed at Ernst.) Personally,
> if I were advising John I'd tell him not to talk here about any of his
> products in development until they are released commercially. I'd encourage
> him to try to negotiate where possible the ability to disclose the fact that
> clients of his are using his technology in specific products marketed and
> commercially available to us but this is unlikely to be easy in the very
> competitive and fast-moving (and murky) world of inkjet media. If I were
> John I'd say nothing more at the moment than that which we already know.
> Infu6 develops inks and ink receptor infusions for inkjet media. It is in
> the business of licensing this technology to third parties and may or may
> not develop product lines to be marketed under its own label in the future.
> They owe us no forward looking statements, particularly given recent
> behaviour.
Steve,
As I understand it there are people out there now that have
bought Nanochrome inks and filled printers with that ink. I
guess they do not have to sign NDAs to buy that ink. Is there
any advice given to them on the compatibility of the
Nanochrome inks with papers that are already on the market
whether infused or not ? Is the ink as used now on for example
PhotoRag delivering the optimum in fade resistance already or
can the ink be considered a dye ink alike on HPR. Do the early
buyers have to wait till the names of existing infused papers
are revealed (if that ever happens with the mentioned NDAs for
licenser and licensee) or do they have to wait till John
starts selling his own substrates before they can use the inks
in their optimum quality ?
I thought that John could provide those answers in a
statement. Seems the most general information a Nanochrome
user likes to get if he didn't get that already. Any DIY fade
tests will only get relevance if the users know whether the
media used is in the compatibility list or not. And when
there's no need for a compatibility list as the inks will
perform optimally on any substrate then it is good to have
that written down too.
I mean there's already a product on the market, there will be
more products on the market soon, but it can't be that you can
not get the right information now and in the next year because
the deals are secret, new secret deals have to be made, patent
applications are still running and research continues.
There are monasteries where the monks are supposed to keep
their mouth shut. Some produce excellent beer. A simple
product that has been made for 400 years and is judged on its
taste and alcohol percentage. The monks believe in God,
paradise and much more but they don't expect their beer
customers to join them in that believe. They do not sell their
religion with the beer. I like that approach and the beer.
I see analogies in the commercial model of Future Wales and
its offspring, I sure hope we do not have to wait 400 years to
find out whether the taste is paradise or hell nor do I wish
to join the monks to get enlightened at an earlier stage. I'm
too agnostic and outspoken for that :-)
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla
www.pigment-print.com
( unvollendet )2006-01-23 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote: > > > As I understand it there are people out there now that have > bought Nanochrome inks and filled printers with that ink.> Ernst > -- > Ernst Dinkla > > > www.pigment-print.com > ( unvollendet ) > Ernst is correct! The only way I would be able to get any of these inks is to purchase them from the US dealer. Seems they had more than enough other beta testers in the US, even though we've heard nothing about the results (since the beta period must be passed, they are selling them after all). Considering the results I'm getting with the Image Specialists UltraPro inks, I am in no hurry to buy another ink. I may not be getting a dmax of 2 or better on matte papers, but I can turn better than a 1.6 on just about everything. The "universal" qualities of the Nanochrome black are tempting, but there is at least one paper that suggests it can be used with matte or photo black with nearly equal results from each ink type. I'll let you know what I think after I order some to try.
2006-01-23 by Steve Kale
> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...> > > Steve, > > As I understand it there are people out there now that have > bought Nanochrome inks and filled printers with that ink. I > guess they do not have to sign NDAs to buy that ink. Of course not. >Is there > any advice given to them on the compatibility of the > Nanochrome inks with papers that are already on the market > whether infused or not ? Ask InkVillage. (I did not ask and so can't answer for you.) >Is the ink as used now on for example > PhotoRag delivering the optimum in fade resistance already or > can the ink be considered a dye ink alike on HPR. InkVillage are, I believe, doing fade tests. If they don't provide them or they don't perform well I suspect their ink will see lower use by members here than otherwise. >Do the early > buyers have to wait till the names of existing infused papers > are revealed (if that ever happens with the mentioned NDAs for > licenser and licensee) or do they have to wait till John > starts selling his own substrates before they can use the inks > in their optimum quality ? If Infu6/Futures is prevented by contract from disclosing who is using their infusion technology then it's unlikely to surface unless that contract is broken, formally or informally. Of course if Infu6/Futures does decide to market their own line of media then they will not be bound by such contracts and when those products are launched I'm sure they will entertain our questions. In the meantime, as with any other ink or media, we are free to try different combinations and discuss the results amongst ourselves. Some results have already been discussed here. > > I thought that John could provide those answers in a > statement. Seems the most general information a Nanochrome > user likes to get if he didn't get that already. Any DIY fade > tests will only get relevance if the users know whether the > media used is in the compatibility list or not. And when > there's no need for a compatibility list as the inks will > perform optimally on any substrate then it is good to have > that written down too. > > I mean there's already a product on the market, there will be > more products on the market soon, but it can't be that you can > not get the right information now and in the next year because > the deals are secret, new secret deals have to be made, patent > applications are still running and research continues. Don't get me wrong. My comment was principally concerned with requests for John to talk about future plans. We all know that the Nanochromes are one ink formulation designed by the Infu6/Futures team, perhaps an unusual situation in which that is known. But it is primarily up to InkVillage to support it and they won't necessarily want John commenting on it. I think we forget that it's a bit of a unique situation to have access to the inventor, principally as a result of his passion for what he's doing. But InkVillage have bought the rights in private contract to produce and market this formulation as their own. So only with their permission can John appropriately add comment on their product. With regards to media, I think he's also said that he's subject to NDAs. With regards to future products, I frankly don't think this list or the WF list deserve being provided with insight. Maybe John will be more lax on the issue I don't know. I hope that if he does comment and their plans change or things are delayed they don't then get lynched a second time around.