Digital BW, The Print

You'd get just as good results using the VM inkset and Paul Roark's
curves, and your ink cost would be cut by about 80 percent. Also you
don't need any software.

Jerry

akivisuals wrote:

> 
> Hello all!  I'm looking to get into doing some quality B&W
> quadtone printing and am looking into purchasing the
> Piezography software.  I'm on a tight budget though and was
> wondering if anyone wants to sell their license for this software.
> Maybe one of you out there is using another workflow and
> doesn't use the Piezography driver or something like that.  I have
> an Epson 1160 on the way that I bought used for $100. and am
> looking into getting a CIS from NoMoreCarts.  Are there any other
> options that I might want to look into for software?  Thanks for
> reading.
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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I've been at quad printing for about a year and a half (digital printing
since dot matrix printers in the 80's) and have tried nearly every major
system to date.  I think there is no better money spent than an initial
piezo software purchase.  You will get great prints across many different
image files...with very little tweaking and will be able to experiment with
papers...which in my opinion is one of the most interesting alternatives
that inkjet printing provides over the darkroom.  RGB work flows are really
tricky from image to image and are very difficult when you switch from paper
to paper in my opinion.  The MIS VM ink set provides some interesting
possibilities, but I would strongly encourage a beginner to get the piezo
software with a set of Cone's new piezotones...I've used all the major ink
sets out there and I think the piezotones blow the others away.  They are a
little more expensive...but certainly not 80%...and besides, ink is a small
part of the final cost of a print, particularly with good paper.

Robert

On 6/24/02 7:12 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> You'd get just as good results using the VM inkset and Paul Roark's
> curves, and your ink cost would be cut by about 80 percent. Also you
> don't need any software.
> 
> Jerry
>

Robert Morrison wrote:
>I've used all the major ink
> sets out there and I think the piezotones blow the others away.  

In what ways does ot blow all the others away ?


-Jeff

I'm getting dmax up to .15 units higher than the MIS FS black using the same
piezo profiles on the same printer.  The color is stable unlike the old Cone
inks or MIS FS.  If you like warm of neutral ink this is the best one out
there (at the moment).

Robert

On 6/24/02 8:05 PM, "Jeff Magidson" <jeffm@...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Robert Morrison wrote:
>> I've used all the major ink
>> sets out there and I think the piezotones blow the others away.
> 
> In what ways does ot blow all the others away ?
> 
> 
> -Jeff
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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> them short.
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> "flames."
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>

Hi Robert,

I've been through everything Piezo, and I much prefer the VM inks. For a
beginner, it would be much less money to go with the MIS VM inks. I bet
I've thrown away $600 in paper and inks setting up the Piezo system. But
I was among the first to use it and the software was very buggy, and my
3000 printer was nothing but hassles. Today, I wouldn't expect it to
cost much in testing, as the printers are much better, but the cone inks
did display a LOT of problems with clogging and inks turning green etc.

I am very anxious to see someone using these new piezotone inks in an
upcoming print exchange. Then I'll know for myself if they deliver
better results than the VM MIS inkset. I still MUCH prefer the VM MIS
inkset to the original Piezo inks.

Jerry

Robert Morrison wrote:

> 
> I've been at quad printing for about a year and a half (digital printing
> since dot matrix printers in the 80's) and have tried nearly every major
> system to date.  I think there is no better money spent than an initial
> piezo software purchase.  You will get great prints across many different
> image files...with very little tweaking and will be able to experiment with
> papers...which in my opinion is one of the most interesting alternatives
> that inkjet printing provides over the darkroom.  RGB work flows are really
> tricky from image to image and are very difficult when you switch from paper
> to paper in my opinion.  The MIS VM ink set provides some interesting
> possibilities, but I would strongly encourage a beginner to get the piezo
> software with a set of Cone's new piezotones...I've used all the major ink
> sets out there and I think the piezotones blow the others away.  They are a
> little more expensive...but certainly not 80%...and besides, ink is a small
> part of the final cost of a print, particularly with good paper.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 6/24/02 7:12 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> 
> > You'd get just as good results using the VM inkset and Paul Roark's
> > curves, and your ink cost would be cut by about 80 percent. Also you
> > don't need any software.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

All of the MIS B/W inksets (MIS-FS, MIS-VM, & MIS-N) are excellent 
choices as alternatives to the PiezoBW inkset.  The only real 
difference is in the warmth and personal preference.

Jeff Randall


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Hi Robert,
> 
> I've been through everything Piezo, and I much prefer the VM inks. 
For a
> beginner, it would be much less money to go with the MIS VM inks. I 
bet
> I've thrown away $600 in paper and inks setting up the Piezo 
system. But
> I was among the first to use it and the software was very buggy, 
and my
> 3000 printer was nothing but hassles. Today, I wouldn't expect it to
> cost much in testing, as the printers are much better, but the cone 
inks
> did display a LOT of problems with clogging and inks turning green 
etc.
> 
> I am very anxious to see someone using these new piezotone inks in 
an
> upcoming print exchange. Then I'll know for myself if they deliver
> better results than the VM MIS inkset. I still MUCH prefer the VM 
MIS
> inkset to the original Piezo inks.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Robert Morrison wrote:
> > 
> > I've been at quad printing for about a year and a half (digital 
printing
> > since dot matrix printers in the 80's) and have tried nearly 
every major
> > system to date.  I think there is no better money spent than an 
initial
> > piezo software purchase.  You will get great prints across many 
different
> > image files...with very little tweaking and will be able to 
experiment with
> > papers...which in my opinion is one of the most interesting 
alternatives
> > that inkjet printing provides over the darkroom.  RGB work flows 
are really
> > tricky from image to image and are very difficult when you switch 
from paper
> > to paper in my opinion.  The MIS VM ink set provides some 
interesting
> > possibilities, but I would strongly encourage a beginner to get 
the piezo
> > software with a set of Cone's new piezotones...I've used all the 
major ink
> > sets out there and I think the piezotones blow the others away.  
They are a
> > little more expensive...but certainly not 80%...and besides, ink 
is a small
> > part of the final cost of a print, particularly with good paper.
> > 
> > Robert
> > 
> > On 6/24/02 7:12 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > 
> > > You'd get just as good results using the VM inkset and Paul 
Roark's
> > > curves, and your ink cost would be cut by about 80 percent. 
Also you
> > > don't need any software.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

True, but the piezotones just stepped up the standard.  We'll see if MIS is
ready to match them...but my guess is that they are not...at least not with
an archival pigment based alternative.  The new inks aren't green, don't
clog (any more than FS does) and don't warm like FS.  Jerry--you won't be
able to judge the piezotones from a print exchange you will need to see side
by side identical prints to make an adequate comparison.  Doing this the
Piezotone images leap off the page in comparison because of the extra black
punch.  The gray ramp is also much better with the piezotones using the
piezo software.

The VM is a nice alternative for people with just one printer.  Personally
it isn't a problem for me to have several printers set up for different ink
sets...but this is probably not the case for a beginner.  The selenium and
color neutral piezotones will be shipping soon.

I have had little success adapting the standard epson driver workflows for
anything other than EAM and photorag.  I don't particularly like these
papers...so that's a real problem.  The piezo driver has been great in this
respect.  Imageprint will be even better (details soon)...but more expensive
for a beginner.  I haven't done a lot of testing with VM, but I find the RGB
workflows to be very image dependent...working on some and requiring
proofing and adjustment on others...once again not ideal for someone just
starting out.  Once again I think imageprint will make the VM inkset a much
more practical alternative...with a grey balancer like the new epson
printers...but the problem is once again dmax...I'm not willing to give up
0.1 to 0.15 dmax in exchange for a little flexibility.

Just my 2-cents,

Robert

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

On 6/25/02 2:07 PM, "jrandall1149" <jrandall@...> wrote:

> 
> All of the MIS B/W inksets (MIS-FS, MIS-VM, & MIS-N) are excellent
> choices as alternatives to the PiezoBW inkset.  The only real
> difference is in the warmth and personal preference.
> 
> Jeff Randall
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
>> Hi Robert,
>> 
>> I've been through everything Piezo, and I much prefer the VM inks.
> For a
>> beginner, it would be much less money to go with the MIS VM inks. I
> bet
>> I've thrown away $600 in paper and inks setting up the Piezo
> system. But
>> I was among the first to use it and the software was very buggy,
> and my
>> 3000 printer was nothing but hassles. Today, I wouldn't expect it to
>> cost much in testing, as the printers are much better, but the cone
> inks
>> did display a LOT of problems with clogging and inks turning green
> etc.
>> 
>> I am very anxious to see someone using these new piezotone inks in
> an
>> upcoming print exchange. Then I'll know for myself if they deliver
>> better results than the VM MIS inkset. I still MUCH prefer the VM
> MIS
>> inkset to the original Piezo inks.
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> Robert Morrison wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've been at quad printing for about a year and a half (digital
> printing
>>> since dot matrix printers in the 80's) and have tried nearly
> every major
>>> system to date.  I think there is no better money spent than an
> initial
>>> piezo software purchase.  You will get great prints across many
> different
>>> image files...with very little tweaking and will be able to
> experiment with
>>> papers...which in my opinion is one of the most interesting
> alternatives
>>> that inkjet printing provides over the darkroom.  RGB work flows
> are really
>>> tricky from image to image and are very difficult when you switch
> from paper
>>> to paper in my opinion.  The MIS VM ink set provides some
> interesting
>>> possibilities, but I would strongly encourage a beginner to get
> the piezo
>>> software with a set of Cone's new piezotones...I've used all the
> major ink
>>> sets out there and I think the piezotones blow the others away.
> They are a
>>> little more expensive...but certainly not 80%...and besides, ink
> is a small
>>> part of the final cost of a print, particularly with good paper.
>>> 
>>> Robert
>>> 
>>> On 6/24/02 7:12 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> You'd get just as good results using the VM inkset and Paul
> Roark's
>>>> curves, and your ink cost would be cut by about 80 percent.
> Also you
>>>> don't need any software.
>>>> 
>>>> Jerry
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page
> is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>>> - Include your full name with your message.
>>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
>>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
>>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Robert, I've not had any significant problems with VM inks on different
papers. I find that when I get a perfect print on EAM, I simply do a
levels adjustment layer for other papers. For instance, if its just
right on Epson Archival Matte, I lower the gamma by 15 percent for
Eclipse Satine. It's 10% for Legion Photo Matte. Works like a charm. 

You may be right about the black, I've not yet seen a print from
piezotone inks.  

Which VM ink isn't archival? They sell them as permanent pigment
archival inks. I suppose the black has a little dye in it to make it
blacker. 20 years with no fading or changes is good enough for me.  None
of my vm inks have shown any sign of fading, and I've been using them
since they came out. They don't turn brown in a south window after
several months, either. (I use the cold and cool curves).

How much ARE the piezotone inks?  

The new Epson 2200 printer looks great until you realize how small its'
cartridges are, and how expensive the epson inks are.  We'll see what
Atlex sells the individual carts for.  It WOULD be nice to have a single
printer that could do both color and black and white, I must admit.

I sort of had bad luck with the original piezo, and am not eager to try
it again.  I still don't want to use the piezo driver, as I have many
other things to do on my computer while the print is printing, and I
don't want it to be tied up while printing a Piezo print.

Jerry

"Robert G. Morrison" wrote:

> 
> True, but the piezotones just stepped up the standard.  We'll see if MIS is
> ready to match them...but my guess is that they are not...at least not with
> an archival pigment based alternative.  T

On 6/25/02 8:27 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Which VM ink isn't archival? They sell them as permanent pigment
> archival inks. I suppose the black has a little dye in it to make it
> blacker. 20 years with no fading or changes is good enough for me.  None
> of my vm inks have shown any sign of fading, and I've been using them
> since they came out. They don't turn brown in a south window after
> several months, either. (I use the cold and cool curves).

The VM's are archival in my book...but in my opinion they are not a match
for the Piezotones.  I don't believe that MIS is planning to try to match
the piezotone performance...my understanding is that they believe they
already have to many inks on the market...but of course I could be wrong.


> How much ARE the piezotone inks?

$44/4oz.  He brought his price down by 30%...of course still significantly
more than the MIS inks...its hard to compete against a free R&D department
(wink, wink, Paul).  But as I said in my earlier post...ink is a trival part
of the cost of doing this...unless of course its epson ink!


Robert

Morning Robert,

I hope there will be a Piezotone ink print in the next exchange. I do
want to see one.

Still, I wouldn't go back to a piezo driver, or cone's inks.  I'll wait
and see what the epson 2200 has to offer. I may be needing a color
printer soon, and I don't print nearly as many color pix, so maybe I
could live with the cost of the epson inks.  We'll have to see how much
they are at atlex.

Jerry

Robert Morrison wrote:

> 
> On 6/25/02 8:27 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> 
> > Which VM ink isn't archival? They sell them as permanent pigment
> > archival inks. I suppose the black has a little dye in it to make it
> > blacker. 20 years with no fading or changes is good enough for me.  None
> > of my vm inks have shown any sign of fading, and I've been using them
> > since they came out. They don't turn brown in a south window after
> > several months, either. (I use the cold and cool curves).
> 
> The VM's are archival in my book...but in my opinion they are not a match
> for the Piezotones.  I don't believe that MIS is planning to try to match
> the piezotone performance...my understanding is that they believe they
> already have to many inks on the market...but of course I could be wrong.
> 
> > How much ARE the piezotone inks?
> 
> $44/4oz.  He brought his price down by 30%...of course still significantly
> more than the MIS inks...its hard to compete against a free R&D department
> (wink, wink, Paul).  But as I said in my earlier post...ink is a trival part
> of the cost of doing this...unless of course its epson ink!
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

On 6/26/02 11:40 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Morning Robert,
> 
> I hope there will be a Piezotone ink print in the next exchange. I do
> want to see one.
> 
> Still, I wouldn't go back to a piezo driver, or cone's inks.  I'll wait
> and see what the epson 2200 has to offer. I may be needing a color
> printer soon, and I don't print nearly as many color pix, so maybe I
> could live with the cost of the epson inks.  We'll have to see how much
> they are at atlex.
> 
> Jerry


I have a B&W print on Somerset Velvet from a 7600 in from of me.  While it
is quite good.  It is not as good as the quad and hextone prints I have made
and seen from either the Cone inks (I'm now using the Piezotones and I love
them) or the MIS VM ink that I used to use.  I still have not decided if I
will take delivery or not.  I'm actually leaning toward a 7000 or 7500 and
the new piezotones.  I believe its too much to ask that a single multi
purpose printer do b&w as well as a dedicated B&W printer.

Lawrence


----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

On 6/26/02 8:55 AM, "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@...> wrote:

> On 6/26/02 11:40 AM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> 
>> Morning Robert,
>> 
>> I hope there will be a Piezotone ink print in the next exchange. I do
>> want to see one.
>> 
>> Still, I wouldn't go back to a piezo driver, or cone's inks.  I'll wait
>> and see what the epson 2200 has to offer. I may be needing a color
>> printer soon, and I don't print nearly as many color pix, so maybe I
>> could live with the cost of the epson inks.  We'll have to see how much
>> they are at atlex.
>> 
>> Jerry
> 
> 
> I have a B&W print on Somerset Velvet from a 7600 in from of me.  While it
> is quite good.  It is not as good as the quad and hextone prints I have made
> and seen from either the Cone inks (I'm now using the Piezotones and I love
> them) or the MIS VM ink that I used to use.  I still have not decided if I
> will take delivery or not.  I'm actually leaning toward a 7000 or 7500 and
> the new piezotones.  I believe its too much to ask that a single multi
> purpose printer do b&w as well as a dedicated B&W printer.
> 
> Lawrence

Thanks Lawrence,

I've heard vacillating opinions on this...most seem to think that quad
printing is better.  Personally for small format printers I have no problem
maintaining multiple machines for BW and color.  I have a 7000 now for quad
printing...I don't do large color work so the little 1270/1280's or 2200
would be fine for that.  Given epson's matte black dmax numbers...its easy
to slay them with the new inks with a variety of drivers.  Somerset Enhanced
(which would give better blacks than Velvet...are you sure its not somerset
enhanced velvet?) has always been a poor BW paper with pigments in my
opinion...it just has a really nice hand.

Robert

> Somerset Enhanced (which would give 
> better blacks than Velvet...are you sure its not somerset 
> enhanced velvet?) has always been a poor BW paper with 
> pigments in my opinion...it just has a really nice hand.
> 
> Robert
> 


Robert,

What are you using in your 7000?  MIS?  Cone?  I still have a bit of
trouble with posterising with the Piezotones and Piezo driver.  I had
more trouble with the VM inks though.

The 7600 is on Velvet.  It has a slight green cast to my eye.  I'd
really like to see what it (7600)could do on Photorag with proper
profiling.  Could be very nice..

Lawrence