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When is DMax not Dmax?

When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-16 by Paul

I know what DMax is on a b/w print, it's where the blacks are at their darkest. But when I see specs for scanners, I get confused. Scanner specs include DMax, but is that for scan of a positive print or negative film? If I want good DMax on my b/w print, isn't that the region of least density (with some detail as in a shadow) on the negative? But if the scanner DMax is for a negative, that's going to be the highlights (with some detail so the highlight is not blown out) on the print, right?

So which do DMax specs on the scanner mean? Nor sure if I'm explaining this very well, but I hope I'm making some sense!

TIA,

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-16 by Ernst Dinkla

The sensitivity of the scanner sensor is limited or beter described its limited dynamic range asks for a compromise. Something you will not experience with reflective originals but with slides and b&w negatives. Either the least dense areas are blown out or the signal/noise ratio in the dense spots is unacceptable.

Ernst Dinkla     op de lei getypt

Paul <paulmwhiting@yahoo.com>schreef:

>  
>
>I know what DMax is on a b/w print, it's where the blacks are at their darkest. But when I see specs for scanners, I get confused. Scanner specs include DMax, but is that for scan of a positive print or negative film? If I want good DMax on my b/w print, isn't that the region of least density (with some detail as in a shadow) on the negative? But if the scanner DMax is for a negative, that's going to be the highlights (with some detail so the highlight is not blown out) on the print, right?
>
>So which do DMax specs on the scanner mean? Nor sure if I'm explaining this very well, but I hope I'm making some sense!
>
>TIA,
>
>Paul
>
>
>
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Re: [Digital BW] When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-16 by Ernst Dinkla

Ernst Dinkla     op de lei getypt

Ernst Dinkla <e.dinkla@onsneteindhoven.nl>schreef:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>The sensitivity of the scanner sensor is limited or beter described its limited dynamic range asks for a compromise. Something you will not experience with reflective originals but with slides and b&w negatives. Either the least dense areas are blown out or the signal/noise ratio in the dense spots is unacceptable.
>
>Ernst Dinkla     op de lei getypt

RE: [Digital BW] When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-17 by E.Neilsen

Paul. The Dmax is Dmax.; the maximum density of dark (densest) area.  It
does not matter whether it is a positive or negative, the real material has
an area that is the darkest. Whether it prints as a positive or a negative
is up to the user later.  The scanner doesn't know and the software doesn't
know until you tell it.  But Range is an important aspect. However, with
multiple scanning being possible it does still have relevance.  If your
scanner can't see it, it doesn't exist. = areas with no detail. 
 
Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
 
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
Let's Talk Photography
 
  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 11:01 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] When is DMax not Dmax?
 
  
I know what DMax is on a b/w print, it's where the blacks are at their
darkest. But when I see specs for scanners, I get confused. Scanner specs
include DMax, but is that for scan of a positive print or negative film? If
I want good DMax on my b/w print, isn't that the region of least density
(with some detail as in a shadow) on the negative? But if the scanner DMax
is for a negative, that's going to be the highlights (with some detail so
the highlight is not blown out) on the print, right?

So which do DMax specs on the scanner mean? Nor sure if I'm explaining this
very well, but I hope I'm making some sense!

TIA,

Paul



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-17 by Ernst Dinkla

On 11/17/2012 04:20 PM, E.Neilsen wrote:
> Paul. The Dmax is Dmax.; the maximum density of dark (densest) area. It
> does not matter whether it is a positive or negative, the real material has
> an area that is the darkest. Whether it prints as a positive or a negative
> is up to the user later. The scanner doesn't know and the software doesn't
> know until you tell it. But Range is an important aspect. However, with
> multiple scanning being possible it does still have relevance. If your
> scanner can't see it, it doesn't exist. = areas with no detail.

Eric,

Multisampling or better a longer exposure sampling + a normal scan 
stacked can increase the dynamic range and create more detail of the 
original densest film area.
It would be interesting to see the light source output increased for the 
same purpose, sensor noise will increase more with a longer exposure 
than with more light.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
450+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, November 2012:
rearranged categories, still adding Photokina paper samples.

A discount coupon at Inksupply.com

2012-11-17 by Arthur Fink Photo

InkSupply.com sent me a 15% discount coupon that is good until 1/5/2013.

I'll not be able to use it -- so glad to give it to the first person who responds to me.

Arthur

Re: [Digital BW] A discount coupon at Inksupply.com

2012-11-17 by hberg2049@comcast.net

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Arthur Fink Photo" <af@arthurfinkphoto.com> 
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 11:26:36 AM 
Subject: [Digital BW] A discount coupon at Inksupply.com 

InkSupply.com sent me a 15% discount coupon that is good until 1/5/2013. 

I'll not be able to use it -- so glad to give it to the first person who responds to me. 

Arthur 

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i need to order new ink sets thank you i could use it

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] A discount coupon at Inksupply.com

2012-11-18 by dmneely@gmail.com

I just finished going through a nightmare experience with them! I also had a
15% discount and bought 4 inks for my 3800 printer. I was told my order
would go out the next day by Customer Support and would receive a tracking #
 None of this ever happened. I called them repeatedly, sent emails and
either they never answered or they said there was a minor problem and they
would be right back with me. Well no shipping info and no tracking # ever
came. Three times I was unable to log-in to their site mysteriously and
again NO info about my $187 order.

Finally yesterday they admitted that  my order was on back-order and they
had no idea when it would arrive, so they said I would get a refund
immediately........but who knows when it will ever come.

Just a warning to those who might decide to order from them. Absolutely
miserable Customer Service IMHO.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Arthur Fink Photo
Date: 11/17/2012 11:27:02 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] A discount coupon at Inksupply.com
 
  
InkSupply.com sent me a 15% discount coupon that is good until 1/5/2013.

I'll not be able to use it -- so glad to give it to the first person who
responds to me.

Arthur

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-18 by Paul

Thanks to both of you, Ernest and Eric,

Eric, what you say makes perfect sense, Dmax is Dmax. Let me amplify my question a bit more:

I'm interested in shadow detail of my final print, that is, in the print I want Dmax in some of the shadow but some detail in parts of the shadow. This would correspond to lighter areas of the negative, right? But scanner specs don't show that, they show Dmax in the negative. Like you say, Dmax is Dmax. And so the scanner specs give me information on how my highlights might look like in the print - and of course I'd like some detail there too, I don't want them blown out. But it looks like typical scanner specs can't help me with detail in the print's shadow areas.

I think I've got a handle on this. I suppose if I'm interested in detail in the thin AND dense parts of the negative I could deal with this in my scanner software. Am presently on a learning curve with VueScan.

Thanks again,

Paul


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Paul. The Dmax is Dmax.; the maximum density of dark (densest) area.  It
> does not matter whether it is a positive or negative, the real material has
> an area that is the darkest. Whether it prints as a positive or a negative
> is up to the user later.  The scanner doesn't know and the software doesn't
> know until you tell it.  But Range is an important aspect. However, with
> multiple scanning being possible it does still have relevance.  If your
> scanner can't see it, it doesn't exist. = areas with no detail. 
>  
> Eric Neilsen
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> Dallas, TX 75226
>  
> www.ericneilsenphotography.com
> skype me with ejprinter
> Let's Talk Photography

Re: [Digital BW] When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-18 by Tony Sleep

On 18/11/2012 00:59, Paul wrote:
> But scanner specs don't show that, they show Dmax in the negative. Like
> you say, Dmax is Dmax. And so the scanner specs give me information on how
> my highlights might look like in the print - and of course I'd like some
> detail there too, I don't want them blown out. But it looks like typical
> scanner specs can't help me with detail in the print's shadow areas.

  The DMax does, as you say, correspond to the darkest area within which 
the scanner is able to capture tonal detail. This is highlights in 
transmissive mode with negs, shadows in tranparencies, and shadows in 
prints in reflective mode.

This limiting factor is very much complicated by sensor noise. Ability of 
sensors to record detail at minimum signal is invariably compromised by 
this - there will always be a shading of detail into noise which will 
obliterate detail.

Stated DMax that is unaccompanied by a qualifying statement of the noise 
level present (at the measured DMax) is meaningless, a bullsh*t marketing 
claim. What matters here is signal to noise ratio. Manufacturers almost 
never state this anywhere.

The same applies to ODR (optical density range), since it takes DMax as 
its lower bound. Without qualification regarding noise level, it means 
nothing.

There is no valid or useful way to compare scanner abilities from 
published DMax or ODR, you can only tell by using them.

Optical system abilities are also never specified in any useful way, but 
lens systems are as crucial as in enlarging. You just don't get excellent 
lenses in cheap scanners, because a fine macro costs too much to manufacture.

There is also OE software to contend with - eg scanners with 10,12 or 14 
bit ADC's with OE software that works at 8 bit throughout, then merely 
upsamples to produce 16bit output if selected.

For years HP, Epson and Polaroid OE sofware was hobbled like this. This 
has severe bad effects at the dark end where bit values are small and 
rounding errors are very significant. End to end 16 bit working was one of 
the great advantages of Vuescan, and the improvement in noise was 
dramatic, on some models gaining almost a full stop more usable shadow detail.
-- 
Regards

Tony Sleep
http://tonysleep.co.uk

Re: When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-18 by Paul

Thanks, Tony,

I guess the upshot is I won't obsess over scanner specs. Also, I need to continue learning about VueScan. I didn't realize how or why it gives better shadow detail. 

One more question: what is ADC, as mentioned in your next-to-last paragraph?

Regards,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On 18/11/2012 00:59, Paul wrote:
> > But scanner specs don't show that, they show Dmax in the negative. Like
> > you say, Dmax is Dmax. And so the scanner specs give me information on how
> > my highlights might look like in the print - and of course I'd like some
> > detail there too, I don't want them blown out. But it looks like typical
> > scanner specs can't help me with detail in the print's shadow areas.
> 
>   The DMax does, as you say, correspond to the darkest area within which 
> the scanner is able to capture tonal detail. This is highlights in 
> transmissive mode with negs, shadows in tranparencies, and shadows in 
> prints in reflective mode.
> 
> This limiting factor is very much complicated by sensor noise. Ability of 
> sensors to record detail at minimum signal is invariably compromised by 
> this - there will always be a shading of detail into noise which will 
> obliterate detail.
> 
> Stated DMax that is unaccompanied by a qualifying statement of the noise 
> level present (at the measured DMax) is meaningless, a bullsh*t marketing 
> claim. What matters here is signal to noise ratio. Manufacturers almost 
> never state this anywhere.
> 
> The same applies to ODR (optical density range), since it takes DMax as 
> its lower bound. Without qualification regarding noise level, it means 
> nothing.
> 
> There is no valid or useful way to compare scanner abilities from 
> published DMax or ODR, you can only tell by using them.
> 
> Optical system abilities are also never specified in any useful way, but 
> lens systems are as crucial as in enlarging. You just don't get excellent 
> lenses in cheap scanners, because a fine macro costs too much to manufacture.
> 
> There is also OE software to contend with - eg scanners with 10,12 or 14 
> bit ADC's with OE software that works at 8 bit throughout, then merely 
> upsamples to produce 16bit output if selected.
> 
> For years HP, Epson and Polaroid OE sofware was hobbled like this. This 
> has severe bad effects at the dark end where bit values are small and 
> rounding errors are very significant. End to end 16 bit working was one of 
> the great advantages of Vuescan, and the improvement in noise was 
> dramatic, on some models gaining almost a full stop more usable shadow detail.
> -- 
> Regards
> 
> Tony Sleep
> http://tonysleep.co.uk
>

Re: [Digital BW] When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-18 by jimbo

Not sure if this will help but here goes.. I have what for me has been a solution for the most part helping bring out shadow and highlight detail for the purposes of making a better print.. Shadow and highlight detail is kind of like a stairway to me.. As you get into the highlights and the shadows the stairs seem to get closer together so change is much less visual.. My solution to this has been thru custom scanner input profiles.. and for me it has really made a difference. 

The process goes like  this.. After scanning your scanner target save it off as master after making a copy of teh image ..I have developed a set of curves that I then apply to the scan image the purpose being to open up specific areas of density in different amounts and in different places on the total curve.. Using these modified target images I then build a set of scanner input profiles.. ..Something similar to this has been done before ( Joseph Holmes)  so it's not new but this way is a spin off of it.. I use these on my Tango and Nexscan flatbed.. In my situation using Linocolor I can select any one of these and see the results prior to executing the scan.. so it's just a matter of selecting the one that makes the best improvement .. I made a set of 17 of these things but really only use about 10 of them.. When I first started fooling with this I was trying to cause change after the scan.. When I switched to this route it just opened it up for me.

jimbo
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 5:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] When is DMax not Dmax?


    


  Thanks to both of you, Ernest and Eric,

  Eric, what you say makes perfect sense, Dmax is Dmax. Let me amplify my question a bit more:

  I'm interested in shadow detail of my final print, that is, in the print I want Dmax in some of the shadow but some detail in parts of the shadow. This would correspond to lighter areas of the negative, right? But scanner specs don't show that, they show Dmax in the negative. Like you say, Dmax is Dmax. And so the scanner specs give me information on how my highlights might look like in the print - and of course I'd like some detail there too, I don't want them blown out. But it looks like typical scanner specs can't help me with detail in the print's shadow areas.

  I think I've got a handle on this. I suppose if I'm interested in detail in the thin AND dense parts of the negative I could deal with this in my scanner software. Am presently on a learning curve with VueScan.

  Thanks again,

  Paul

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "E.Neilsen" <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
  >
  > Paul. The Dmax is Dmax.; the maximum density of dark (densest) area. It
  > does not matter whether it is a positive or negative, the real material has
  > an area that is the darkest. Whether it prints as a positive or a negative
  > is up to the user later. The scanner doesn't know and the software doesn't
  > know until you tell it. But Range is an important aspect. However, with
  > multiple scanning being possible it does still have relevance. If your
  > scanner can't see it, it doesn't exist. = areas with no detail. 
  > 
  > Eric Neilsen
  > Eric Neilsen Photography
  > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
  > Dallas, TX 75226
  > 
  > www.ericneilsenphotography.com
  > skype me with ejprinter
  > Let's Talk Photography



  
  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2624/5885 - Release Date: 11/09/12
  Internal Virus Database is out of date.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-19 by David

Paul,

At the risk of adding to the confusion or covering things you already know, here is a bit of background about D and Dmax:

In the context of light measurements, density (sometimes called optical density or absorbance) is defined as:

D = log(I0/I)

where I is the intensity of light detected by the sensor, and I0 is the input intensity, or the intensity if there were perfect transmission or reflectance.  For reflectance measurements (eg scanning a print), I0 is the intensity of light that hits the surface, and I is the intensity of light that is reflected and detected.  For transmission measurements (e.g. scanning a negative), I0 is the intensity of light that reaches the material from the source, and I is the intensity that reaches the sensor.

The important thing about the equation above is that it is logarithmic.  D=1 means that 10% of the light is transmitted or reflected; D=2 means that 1% is transmitted or reflected.

The term Dmax has two common meanings. The first (which is one usually discussed on this form) is the maximum value of D attainable for a particular material (e.g. the darkest black for a paper and ink combination or the maximum density attainable for a particular film). The second meaning is the maximum density that a scanner or densitometer can record.  I'll just address the second meaning here.

As Tony has said, the Dmax for a scanner is not all that easy to specify, as it depends on the signal to noise ratio one is willing to accept.  The basic problem is this: as D increases, less light reaches the sensor, and the fall of is very rapid.  From D=2 to D=3, the intensity goes from 1% to 0.1% of the initial intensity.  The noise level, from scattered light and other factors, stays roughly the same as the detected intensity decreases, so that the S/N ratio decreases.

The ADC that Tony mentioned is the analog to digital converter, which does just what the name implies: it converts the analog measurement of light intensity into digital number.  In principle, the final limitation on Dmax is the number of bits in the output number.  If 8-bits are used, then the smallest number above zero that can be recorded is 1 and the largest is 255.  If I0=255 and I=1, then Dmax=2.4.  With 16-bits, Dmax=4.8.  This is almost always what manufacturers cite as Dmax.  It doesn't say anything more than the number of bits used by the ADC, and it says nothing about the S/N at a given D. As Tony says, its bogus.

The good news is that negative films rarely if ever have Dmax themselves that seriously challenge even a modest scanner.  Slide films can be more problematic.

Since what you are concerned about is detail in the shadows, there is no real S/N problem, since the signal is the highest for those regions. What is important is how you set the high and low points when you scan.  These basically adjust the range of light intensities that will be recorded. If the low density setting cuts off the histogram, then you will lose information from the low density regions of the negative (the shadows in the print).  Similarly, you can lose highlight information if the histogram is cut off at that end.  Generally, it's best to adjust the sliders so there is just a bit of extra room at both ends of the histogram.  That ensures that you get the most information that the ADC is capable of.

Some people also suggest that you scan negatives in positive mode.  This makes the scan look like a negative, which you then invert in Photoshop or whatever editing program you use.  I don't know of any obvious reason that this should be better, but at one point, I did convince myself that I got better results with Nikon scanners that way, and it is the way I do things. But I'm not sure that it makes that much difference.  It's worth fooling around with using your scanner and software.

My general experience is that scanners can recover just about every bit of detail that is present in the thin parts of a negative (and the dense parts, for that matter).  I've never tried to compare, but it's probably at least easier to capture the shaddow detail in a scan than in a wet print.

I hope this helps more than it confuses.

David



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
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>
> I know what DMax is on a b/w print, it's where the blacks are at their darkest. But when I see specs for scanners, I get confused. Scanner specs include DMax, but is that for scan of a positive print or negative film? If I want good DMax on my b/w print, isn't that the region of least density (with some detail as in a shadow) on the negative? But if the scanner DMax is for a negative, that's going to be the highlights (with some detail so the highlight is not blown out) on the print, right?
> 
> So which do DMax specs on the scanner mean? Nor sure if I'm explaining this very well, but I hope I'm making some sense!
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Paul
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-19 by Ernst Dinkla

In addition to David's excellent summary you can find more realistic 
Dynamic Range numbers on the pages of the Image Engineering website:

http://www.image-engineering.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=91 


The last PDF mentioned there.

I must have a list somewhere of more (older) scanners published by 
ColorFoto in Germany that were tested by Dietmar W\ufffdller of Image 
Engineering.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

Re: When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-19 by Paul

David,

You most certainly did not add to the confusion, you cleared things up for me considerably. And no, they are not things I already knew.

And Ernst, I downloaded that pdf and it makes me envious of SilverScan. As I learn more about VueScan, perhaps I can achieve something approaching those results.

Thanks to both of you!

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David" <goldenberg@...> wrote:
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>
> Paul,
> 
> At the risk of adding to the confusion or covering things you already know, here is a bit of background about D and Dmax:

Re: [Digital BW] Re: When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-19 by Ernst Dinkla

On 11/19/2012 03:40 PM, Paul wrote:

> And Ernst, I downloaded that pdf and it makes me envious of SilverScan. As I learn more about VueScan, perhaps I can achieve something approaching those results.


Using Vuescan here and multiexposure, multisampling, analogue gain are 
all aboard.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst Dinkla

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
450+ inkjet paper white spectral plots, November 2012:
rearranged categories, still adding Photokina paper samples.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: When is DMax not Dmax?

2012-11-19 by EJ Neilsen

David wrote - 

 

"Some people also suggest that you scan negatives in positive mode. This
makes the scan look like a negative, which you then invert in Photoshop or
whatever editing program you use. I don't know of any obvious reason that
this should be better, but at one point, I did convince myself that I got
better results with Nikon scanners that way, and it is the way I do things.
But I'm not sure that it makes that much difference. It's worth fooling
around with using your scanner and software."

 

I don't attribute that to anything other than how we see the information on
the screen. A long time back I would invert some files to see the Print Dmin
/ file Dmax so that I could see the information. The screen blasting out
white was hard to read compared to the  absence of projected light. When I
was done pushing those pixels around I would switch back to normal view.  It
is a part of the digital editing process that rarely gets talked about but
the perception of light from our screens. 

 

End points of detail, blacks or whites, can be helped that way from my
experience. 

 

 

Eric Neilsen

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

 

www.ericneilsenphotography.com

SKYPE ejprinter

 



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