The Yamaha AN1x Synthesizer mailing list

How does the AN1X compare to the old Oberheim Matrix 12-not the 
reissued digital copy but the monstorusly expensive older beast?

Rainbow Jimmy
http://www.spaceanimals.com
http://www.mp3.com/spaceanimals

AN1x: faster envelopes.
AN1x: more "sterile" FM - but more consistent across the keyboard.

Xpander/M12: warmer low end (VCOs)

Better interface and "look"(graphics) on the Oberheims (What the hell 
was Yamaha thinking with those horrible brown colors ?)
Of course the Oberheims have no Ring Mod/effects/etc.....

IMHO- The AN1x sounds great - and holds its own against the old Obie & 
Roland Poly/Analogs (for most applications).

____________________________________
Todd S.
Sierra Madre Cinema Council
http://users.ev1.net/~xpander/SMCChome.html
____________________________________



On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 11:08 PM, spaceanimals wrote:

> How does the AN1X compare to the old Oberheim Matrix 12-not the
> reissued digital copy but the monstorusly expensive older beast?
>
> Rainbow Jimmy
> http://www.spaceanimals.com
> http://www.mp3.com/spaceanimals
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

spaceanimals said:
> How does the AN1X compare to the old Oberheim Matrix 12-not the
> reissued digital copy but the monstorusly expensive older beast?
>
> Rainbow Jimmy
> http://www.spaceanimals.com
> http://www.mp3.com/spaceanimals

As someone who almost owns both (I have an Xpander--the Matrix-12 is two
Xpanders in one box with a keyboard added), I can probably answer whatever
questions you have. By "compare" do you mean sonically, in terms of that
elusive quality that says "analog"? If so, then I'd better stop here, as I'd
rather my first lengthy post on this list have some positive content. :)

mike
(founder of the Xpander User Group, 1985)

-- 
Yes, I'm an agent of darkness, but I do more on salary than commission.
> < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > <
metlay / atomic city / metlay@... / http://www.atomiccity.com

OK, some more useful data, I hope. Most of this is "IMO"-tagged; I've been
working with the Xpander for almost 20 years and the AN1x for about ten
months, so there's a disparity in my expertise. So noted...

xpander said:
> AN1x: faster envelopes.
> AN1x: more "sterile" FM - but more consistent across the keyboard.

These are true, but the former much more than the latter. If you tune the
Xpander and let it settle in, FM actually behaves very nicely over a very wide
range of pitches. Remember, it's real analog, and operating temperature has an
effect on this stuff, although in my experience nowhere near as much as with
other analog gear of this vintage.

The slow envelope attacks on the Xpander are, for most people, its Achilles
heel, and the AN1x is much snappier out of the starting gate. Pardon the pun.

> Xpander/M12: warmer low end (VCOs)

I think that the overall sound quality of the Xpander goes way beyond "warmer
low end" in comparison to the AN1x. The filters are smoother and richer, the
FM has a lot more character, the modulation capabilities beat the AN1x in
several areas (although with 32 routings over two scenes plus the common ones,
the AN1x stands up better against the Xpander than almost any other synth out
there from the early 1980s until the release of the Nord Modular in 1999), and
the all-analog audio path has a sweet tone that the AN1x can't match.

> Better interface and "look"(graphics) on the Oberheims (What the hell
> was Yamaha thinking with those horrible brown colors ?)

I would have liked more contrast, yes, but the Oberheim is actually very hard
to read under low light conditions. Fortunately everything is done with VFDs
and soft knobs, so once you've memorized where the Page buttons are you can do
almost everything by feel.

> Of course the Oberheims have no Ring Mod/effects/etc.....

And you can add that easily enough with external boxes and it'll sound way
better than the tweezy internal effects on the AN1x, even if you buy a
movice-level modern multieffector like the Alesis Ineko.

> IMHO- The AN1x sounds great - and holds its own against the old Obie &
> Roland Poly/Analogs (for most applications).

That last parenthetical statement forgives a lot, but I have to protest a bit
here.

The Yamaha is an okay analog modeler for its era (late 1990s, when this stuff
was just becoming feasible in affordable quantities) but it doesn't compare
well to even a more modern model, like the Access Virus C or the Novation
Supernova II, much less a real analog synth like the Xpander or Matrix-12.

It is true that every synth has things it's good at; the AN1x is an excellent
synth for suggesting analog-type sounds while remaining portable, reliable,
tightly tuned, and appropriately integrated with effects and performance aids
like the sequencer, arpeggiator, and Free EG. But in my explorations so far,
including listening to many patches done by very creative people, I have yet
to hear an analog-simulation patch that knocks me on my tail and makes me say
"Whooaaaa...!".

And the Xpander hasn't ever been immune to criticism, I should point out. When
the Xpander came out, it was derided as too complicated for the average knob
twiddler, too expensive for the average beginner, too tightly-tuned to compare
to "real" analog boards like the Minimoog and OBXa (even Tom Oberheim says the
Xa was the last "good sounding" synth Oberheim made), and too much of an
all-things-to-all-people box to be convenient (most everyone wanted CVs or
MIDI, not both, and a huge box with no keyboard was considered a waste of
space). Nevertheless it's stood the test of time quite proudly and is still
cranking out phenomenal sounds nearly 20 years after its release.

The AN1x deserves its props, to be sure, but let's see where it is when it's
almost old enough to buy beer.

mike

-- 
Yes, I'm an agent of darkness, but I do more on salary than commission.
> < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > <
metlay / atomic city / metlay@... / http://www.atomiccity.com

> By "compare" do you mean sonically, in terms of that
> elusive quality that says "analog"? If so, then I'd better stop 
here, as I'd
> rather my first lengthy post on this list have some positive 
content. :)

MIke:

Thanks for both your posts on the subject. As a list-member who has 
heard about the expander/matrix synths, but not had access to them it 
is very helpful. I hope you will continue to be as frank.

I've had the AN1X for about 3 years. I loved to tweak it and play it. 
It's been my favorite mode of expression, surpassing even my steinway 
in the amount of time consumed. I started trying to emulate 
the "famous" analog power sounds: Rick Wakeman's minimoog, Lyle May's 
8 voice and expander, Geddy Lee's minimoog sweeps, some of the Phil 
Collins and Peter Gabriel Prophet 5 pads, even some CS80 horns and 
strings that Vangelis did. There was always the ability to get very 
close, but a difference in power and liquidity. Then I turned the 
corner.

The patches are now my favorites are not analogish at all. They are 
probably more like FM/physical modelling type sound that aren't very 
warm but are still full of character. And in this space, I find the 
AN1X doing very sweet, expressive and controllable things. To me it 
seems to be very effective when not attempting to be powerful.

Will, I still want to upgrade someday? Of course. I played a v-synth 
a voyager and an andromeda the other day. And it struck me that 
andromeda provided a lovely compromise between analog sound and 
digital control. But I'll probably keep this and buy an additional 
AN1X on ebay so as not to lose some of these sounds. Also I don't 
want to re-learn the controllers.

Regards,

Jerry

>  > By "compare" do you mean sonically, in terms of that
>>  elusive quality that says "analog"? If so, then I'd better stop
>here, as I'd
>>  rather my first lengthy post on this list have some positive
>content. :)
>
>MIke:
>
>Thanks for both your posts on the subject. As a list-member who has
>heard about the expander/matrix synths, but not had access to them it
>is very helpful. I hope you will continue to be as frank.

Jerry,

Well, I was famous as a loudmouthed Xpander-supporter back in the 
early 1980s on the old USENET groups. Over the years my opinions have 
mellowed a bit, but interestingly those early posts started me on a 
path that led to where I am now, a place I never in my wildest dreams 
would have predicted for myself in 1985. In a very real sense, I owe 
much of my happiness and my sense of fulfillment in the professional 
world, and quite possibly my life and health as well, to my Xpander. 
So it helps to take my opinions with a grain of salt. :)

>I've had the AN1X for about 3 years. I loved to tweak it and play it.
>It's been my favorite mode of expression, surpassing even my steinway
>in the amount of time consumed. I started trying to emulate
>the "famous" analog power sounds: Rick Wakeman's minimoog, Lyle May's
>8 voice and expander, Geddy Lee's minimoog sweeps, some of the Phil
>Collins and Peter Gabriel Prophet 5 pads, even some CS80 horns and
>strings that Vangelis did. There was always the ability to get very
>close, but a difference in power and liquidity. Then I turned the
>corner.
>
>The patches are now my favorites are not analogish at all. They are
>probably more like FM/physical modelling type sound that aren't very
>warm but are still full of character. And in this space, I find the
>AN1X doing very sweet, expressive and controllable things. To me it
>seems to be very effective when not attempting to be powerful.

It seems to me you've "heard into" the AN1x to get at its strengths; 
I hope that I can get that deep with it one day, beyond the 
relatively superficial things I've learned about it so far. Its 
abilities as a light, portable, affordable MIDI controller have 
overshadowed its sound engine for me in a lot of ways, but now that I 
have AN1xEdit working (Thanxmuchly, Jon!!), that will change.

The Xpander is not all things to all people; neither is the AN1x. I 
hope that with lists like this one, and like matrixSynth (the 
counterpart to this list for users of the Xpander, Matrix-12, and 
more affordable but still pretty good-sounding Matrix-6 and 
Matrix-1000), we can educate people as to what each particular synth 
does well, and help people get the most out of their gear.

At least, I hope so. I shall resist the temptation to rant (in good 
old-fashioned 1980s Metlay style) about a recent arrival on the 
matrixSynth list who showed up asking where to steal the listmembers' 
favorite editor/librarian software: he'd found its home 
website--where the author actually expected people to PAY for 
it!--but was pretty sure he could find a krak if he asked 
around...could anyone help? Read the archives yourself if you're 
curious; I can't possibly do it justice.

>Will, I still want to upgrade someday? Of course. I played a v-synth
>a voyager and an andromeda the other day. And it struck me that
>andromeda provided a lovely compromise between analog sound and
>digital control. But I'll probably keep this and buy an additional
>AN1X on ebay so as not to lose some of these sounds. Also I don't
>want to re-learn the controllers.

You shouldn't "upgrade" your AN1x; you should get a different synth 
that provides a different quality than the AN1x, and use them 
together in complementary ways. That's the beauty of this field; 
every synth is a different color on the palette. You just need to 
have the money to buy them all and the space to have them all set up. 
8-\

Best,

mike
-- 
"You sank my Jenga ship!" "Jenga ship? We're playing CONNECT FOUR!"
====================================================================
Mike Metlay * ATOMIC CITY * PO Box 17083 * Boulder CO 80308-0083 USA
metlay@... *  1-800-924-ATOM  * http://www.atomiccity.com

--- In AN1x-list@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Metlay" <metlay@a...> wrote:
> Nevertheless it's stood the test of time quite proudly and is still
> cranking out phenomenal sounds nearly 20 years after its release.
> 
> The AN1x deserves its props, to be sure, but let's see where it is 
when it's
> almost old enough to buy beer.

Mike,

As someone who really understands the capabilities of the great 
Oberheims, I'd be interested to hear your take on the OB12, the "the 
reissued digital copy". I recently purchased one. It seems to me that 
Viscount really took some time and thought into modelling the 
behaviors of analog filters in this board. Whether they behave like 
filters in an old Oberheim, I haven't a clue. They also did a nice 
job with creating a slight "drift" in the Oscs. It really seems to 
breath in some patches. It doesn't seem to have the bright, shrill 
sounds or precision of the Access' or Novos' but it certainly has 
warmth and subtlty.

By the way, Viscount was shamed early on with buggy software in the 
OB12. As deep as I have gone, haven't had any problems in 
programming. 

Pablo

polharris said:
>
> As someone who really understands the capabilities of the great
> Oberheims, I'd be interested to hear your take on the OB12, the "the
> reissued digital copy". I recently purchased one. It seems to me that
> Viscount really took some time and thought into modelling the
> behaviors of analog filters in this board. Whether they behave like
> filters in an old Oberheim, I haven't a clue. They also did a nice
> job with creating a slight "drift" in the Oscs. It really seems to
> breath in some patches. It doesn't seem to have the bright, shrill
> sounds or precision of the Access' or Novos' but it certainly has
> warmth and subtlty.
>
> By the way, Viscount was shamed early on with buggy software in the
> OB12. As deep as I have gone, haven't had any problems in
> programming.
>
> Pablo

Pablo,

The OB12 is a modeling analog synth, not a chips-and-wires analog synth. This
may make a difference to some people and not to others, but it does mean that
one should be careful in drawing parallels between it and the Xpander.

My take is that the OB12 isn't really an Oberheim synth at all, in the sense
that the Xpander was...and even the Xpander wasn't "Really" an Oberheim synth,
as it was designed by Marcel Doidic and Marcus Ryle (now of Line 6) under the
loose supervision of Tom Oberheim, not by Tom himself, and in fact Tom didn't
like it all that much. But nowadays the Oberheim name (the next one we need to
hope will get back to its owner someday) is owned by Viscount, a name that
doesn't exactly rattle the windows here in the USA, and applied to a very
un-polished-looking modeling synth...

But none of this addresses how it works or how it sounds. My experience with
it has been limited but impressive to date; it is a powerful part of the synth
arsenal of Denverite emusician Jesse Sola, best known to MP3.com station
listeners and people who follow Hearts of Space or Echoes as Numina. I have
liked what Jesse does with it; it has a very smooth and mellow tone, which I
personally tend to prefer to the bright, attacking buss that so many people
seem to think is needful to show a synth's "analogness." Would I own one? No,
because ergonomically it's not designed the way I work (being an old phart is
very handy for saving money on new gear ;) and the sounds that it seems good
at are already things that I have tools for in my arsenal, for example my AN1x
and my Darkstar XP. But for someone looking at an analog-style workstation and
who likes the sounds, it's not a bad alternative...certainly not as bad as
many people feared when the first un-debugged prototypes showed up at trade
shows!

mike

-- 
As a generalisation, the technology has NOTHING to do with the music.
For each specific artist, it has EVERYTHING to do with the music. (cassiel)
> < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > <
metlay / atomic city / metlay@... / http://www.atomiccity.com

On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 12:35 PM, Mike Metlay wrote:

> OK, some more useful data, I hope. Most of this is "IMO"-tagged; I've 
> been
> working with the Xpander for almost 20 years and the AN1x for about ten
> months, so there's a disparity in my expertise. So noted...

First off- I'll apologize for baiting Mike with such short comparisons 
(& sweeping omissions/generalizations ).
I have a tendency to try and put things in a nutshell as my Qwerty 
keystrokes are more "hunt & peck "(slower) than my 12 tone work 
(arpeggiated riffs..etc..).
- I'll continue to generalize a little though......

I've had my Xpander for a little over a decade (if we're keeping count).

> xpander said:
>> AN1x: faster envelopes.
>> AN1x: more "sterile" FM - but more consistent across the keyboard.
>
> These are true, but the former much more than the latter. If you tune 
> the
> Xpander and let it settle in, FM actually behaves very nicely over a 
> very wide
> range of pitches. Remember, it's real analog, and operating 
> temperature has an
> effect on this stuff, although in my experience nowhere near as much 
> as with
> other analog gear of this vintage.
>
> The slow envelope attacks on the Xpander are, for most people, its 
> Achilles
> heel, and the AN1x is much snappier out of the starting gate. Pardon 
> the pun.

Couldn't agree more here- (One major thing Roland Analog gear has over 
the Xpander).
I love tight envelopes- and percussive sounds.


>> Xpander/M12: warmer low end (VCOs)
>
> I think that the overall sound quality of the Xpander goes way beyond 
> "warmer
> low end" in comparison to the AN1x. The filters are smoother and 
> richer, the
> FM has a lot more character, the modulation capabilities beat the AN1x 
> in
> several areas

Agreed- the Xpander's Phase filter was one of a kind- and a force to be 
reckoned with (#1 in the Smooth & Rich analog filter hall of fame).
I'd say the FM tracks better on a Matrix 1000/6R (I don't like my 
Xpander tuned tight to track FM well anyway).
Also I like to say the FM on the Xpander is more "organic" and the AN1X 
is more sterile (but nice on high frequency content).
Although I'll admit I won't be feeling the modulation capability 
difference in the way I program (as I have yet to feel limited when 
looking for a modulation on the AN1x).

>> Better interface and "look"(graphics) on the Oberheims (What the hell
>> was Yamaha thinking with those horrible brown colors ?)
>
> I would have liked more contrast, yes, but the Oberheim is actually 
> very hard
> to read under low light conditions. Fortunately everything is done 
> with VFDs
> and soft knobs, so once you've memorized where the Page buttons are 
> you can do
> almost everything by feel.

Let's see how that feels....

AN1X: Smooth knob rotation
Xpander: (Stepped) click click click click click click click 
click..........

Sorry- couldn't resist that one.

>> IMHO- The AN1x sounds great - and holds its own against the old Obie &
>> Roland Poly/Analogs (for most applications).
>
> That last parenthetical statement forgives a lot, but I have to 
> protest a bit
> here.
>
> The Yamaha is an okay analog modeler for its era (late 1990s, when 
> this stuff
> was just becoming feasible in affordable quantities) but it doesn't 
> compare
> well to even a more modern model, like the Access Virus C or the 
> Novation
> Supernova II, much less a real analog synth like the Xpander or 
> Matrix-12.

That's a fair comparison- and polyphony and features will improve as 
time marches on (if the current trend continues).
When  (make that IF ) Yamaha produces an AN2X or some such successor - 
I'll bet Access and Novation will be playing "catch-up".
I look at the An1X like my Juno-60.. Both very solid performers that 
make their way into my compositions time and again.
When I said "for most applications" I meant "Bread & Butter" analogish 
sounds (which I now see can be taken differently as each of us has 
his/her own definition of Bread & Butter sounds).

>  in my explorations so far,
> including listening to many patches done by very creative people, I 
> have yet
> to hear an analog-simulation patch that knocks me on my tail and makes 
> me say
> "Whooaaaa...!".

That's funny- I have a Bass sound I got off the net- that made me go 
"Whoaaaaaaa...".
(but my "Whoooaaaa" bar may be a bit lower than yours)

> And the Xpander hasn't ever been immune to criticism, I should point 
> out. When
> the Xpander came out, it was derided as too complicated for the 
> average knob
> twiddler, too expensive for the average beginner, too tightly-tuned to 
> compare
> to "real" analog boards like the Minimoog and OBXa (even Tom Oberheim 
> says the
> Xa was the last "good sounding" synth Oberheim made), and too much of 
> an
> all-things-to-all-people box to be convenient (most everyone wanted 
> CVs or
> MIDI, not both, and a huge box with no keyboard was considered a waste 
> of
> space).

Thanks for the trip down memory lane (I remember those arguments).
(I've always preferred the Xpander to my old OB8- and that old tuning 
argument is hilarious).

> Nevertheless it's stood the test of time quite proudly and is still
> cranking out phenomenal sounds nearly 20 years after its release.

Here here !

>
> The AN1x deserves its props, to be sure, but let's see where it is 
> when it's
> almost old enough to buy beer.

HAHahaha !!- excellent point.  I'll have to meet you for a Pint at that 
stage (although I think a ten year AN1X anniversary should suffice- 
say...2007 ? ).

Very glad to have you on this list Mike..
(fellow Xpander, AN1x, K5000, and Darkstar XP2 owner).....
____________________________________
Todd S.
Sierra Madre Cinema Council
http://users.ev1.net/~xpander/SMCChome.html
____________________________________

(fellow Xpander, AN!x, K5000, and Darkstar XP2 owner)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I have a Bass sound I got off the net- that made me go 
> "Whoaaaaaaa...".
> (but my "Whoooaaaa" bar may be a bit lower than yours)

Todd:

If you have a name and a source for that patch, I wonder if you could 
tell me. I occasionally play left hand bass when the bass player is a 
no show. So I put a couple of bass patches among my 128 each time ... 
just in case. I have kept changing them because I don't like them. I 
would make up/tweak one to my satisfaction. Then take it to play in 
the band and go. Yikes! In fact I sometimes prefer to play an 
electric bass sample off a rompler.

I dunno if it's the programming on the patches I have or if there is 
a trick to playing synth bass sounds I haven't learned.

Cheers,

Jerry

xpander wrote:
>First off- I'll apologize for baiting Mike with such short comparisons
>(& sweeping omissions/generalizations ).
>I have a tendency to try and put things in a nutshell as my Qwerty
>keystrokes are more "hunt & peck "(slower) than my 12 tone work
>(arpeggiated riffs..etc..).
>- I'll continue to generalize a little though......

Oh, I don't mind. I've had far worse.

>I've had my Xpander for a little over a decade (if we're keeping count).

Hah! Youngster. :)

>  >> Xpander/M12: warmer low end (VCOs)
>>
>>  I think that the overall sound quality of the Xpander goes way beyond
>>  "warmer
>>  low end" in comparison to the AN1x. The filters are smoother and
>>  richer, the
>>  FM has a lot more character, the modulation capabilities beat the AN1x
>>  in
>>  several areas
>
>Agreed- the Xpander's Phase filter was one of a kind- and a force to be
>reckoned with (#1 in the Smooth & Rich analog filter hall of fame).
>I'd say the FM tracks better on a Matrix 1000/6R (I don't like my
>Xpander tuned tight to track FM well anyway).
>Also I like to say the FM on the Xpander is more "organic" and the AN1X
>is more sterile (but nice on high frequency content).
>Although I'll admit I won't be feeling the modulation capability
>difference in the way I program (as I have yet to feel limited when
>looking for a modulation on the AN1x).

I have worked with the Matrix-6 a bit, but could never get past the 
DCOs. The AN1x represents a very nice way to get that type of sound 
with more control and modulation; once you step away from the 
all-analog audio path, models do better in comparison to hybrid 
machines.

>  > I would have liked more contrast, yes, but the Oberheim is actually
>>  very hard
>>  to read under low light conditions. Fortunately everything is done
>>  with VFDs
>>  and soft knobs, so once you've memorized where the Page buttons are
>>  you can do
>>  almost everything by feel.
>
>Let's see how that feels....
>
>AN1X: Smooth knob rotation
>Xpander: (Stepped) click click click click click click click
>click..........
>
>Sorry- couldn't resist that one.

It blew up in your face, man. When you're trying to hit an exact 
parameter value, counting clicks is way better than trying to figure 
out by feel how many millimeters to move a smooth potentiometer. :)


>When  (make that IF ) Yamaha produces an AN2X or some such successor -
>I'll bet Access and Novation will be playing "catch-up".

I don't think it will happen, I'm afraid. The AN1x, the PL card, and 
the AN200 did okay up to a point, but I don't think they generated 
enough sales to warrant a lot more work on Yamaha's part. Analog 
modeling seems to be more the province of the small eggsnatching 
companies than the big hulking behemoths. All the more reasons to 
treasure the AN1x as the watershed machine it is.

>  > The AN1x deserves its props, to be sure, but let's see where it is
>>  when it's
>>  almost old enough to buy beer.
>
>HAHahaha !!- excellent point.  I'll have to meet you for a Pint at that
>stage (although I think a ten year AN1X anniversary should suffice-
>say...2007 ? ).

I'll see where I am at that point. Hopefully still making music...

>Very glad to have you on this list Mike..

Thank you kindly. It's nice to be here.

Kind of funny how it all works out; on the cover of the November 1997 
RECORDING Magazine, we had a shot of the Korg Z1, the Kawai K5000S, 
the Roland JP-8000, and the Yamaha AN1x floating in space (a real 
photo, not Photoshop, and an amazing setup job it was too!). I 
reviewed all four keyboards for the magazine. The Roland was the 
famous one that everyone was yakking about at the time, but I now 
find myself owning a K5000S and an AN1x and have access to two Z1s in 
my neighborhood when I need them, which isn't often thanks to my 
Prophecy. I never missed the JP again after it left the studio.

mike
-- 
"You sank my Jenga ship!" "Jenga ship? We're playing CONNECT FOUR!"
====================================================================
Mike Metlay * ATOMIC CITY * PO Box 17083 * Boulder CO 80308-0083 USA
metlay@... *  1-800-924-ATOM  * http://www.atomiccity.com

On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 11:18 PM, Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City 
wrote:
>> I've had my Xpander for a little over a decade (if we're keeping 
>> count).
> Hah! Youngster. :)

That made my day ;-)

> I have worked with the Matrix-6 a bit, but could never get past the
> DCOs. The AN1x represents a very nice way to get that type of sound
> with more control and modulation; once you step away from the
> all-analog audio path, models do better in comparison to hybrid
> machines.

The models may sound closer to the real thing (and they DO have good 
mod routings)-
But I must say I like DCOs- the 3 DCO synths I've owned (Juno 60, 
Matrix 1000, and Bit one) were wonderful.
- and I've always been a fan of the PPG and Prophet VS (Digital OSC 
into VCF).

>>>  once you've memorized where the Page buttons are
>>>  you can do almost everything by feel.
>> Let's see how that feels....
>> AN1X: Smooth knob rotation
>> Xpander: (Stepped) click click click click click click click
>> click..........
>>
>> Sorry- couldn't resist that one.
>
> It blew up in your face, man. When you're trying to hit an exact
> parameter value, counting clicks is way better than trying to figure
> out by feel how many millimeters to move a smooth potentiometer. :)

I see your point- but I prefer the feel of a smooth knob (even though I 
know the 127 clicks are still in there).
I like to feel by ear (not by click).
If I need an envisioned numerical value on the Xpander I can always 
type it in directly.

>> When  (make that IF ) Yamaha produces an AN2X or some such successor -
>> I'll bet Access and Novation will be playing "catch-up".
>
> I don't think it will happen, I'm afraid. The AN1x, the PL card, and
> the AN200 did okay up to a point, but I don't think they generated
> enough sales to warrant a lot more work on Yamaha's part. Analog
> modeling seems to be more the province of the small eggsnatching
> companies than the big hulking behemoths. All the more reasons to
> treasure the AN1x as the watershed machine it is.

Welcome to wishful thinking (Population : just me).
Synth history says you're probably correct.
How many great instruments were never taken to the next level because 
of poor market performance ? ( rhetorical ).

Love those classifications- (what's the third one?)

1. Hulking behemoths : 		Roland, Korg, Yamaha
2. Eggsnatching companies:  	Clavia, Waldorf, Access, Novation, 
Quasimidi & Redsound
3. Other: 					Emu, Akai, Kurzweil, Kawai

I suppose Alesis is now an "eggsnatcher" since they have released a 
modeling synth.

> Kind of funny how it all works out; on the cover of the November 1997
> RECORDING Magazine, we had a shot of the Korg Z1, the Kawai K5000S,
> the Roland JP-8000, and the Yamaha AN1x floating in space (a real
> photo, not Photoshop, and an amazing setup job it was too!). I
> reviewed all four keyboards for the magazine. The Roland was the
> famous one that everyone was yakking about at the time, but I now
> find myself owning a K5000S and an AN1x and have access to two Z1s in
> my neighborhood when I need them, which isn't often thanks to my
> Prophecy. I never missed the JP again after it left the studio.

Just took a peek at that cover ("Return of the Knob"- I like the title).
The AN1X just doesn't LOOK like much- The Nord and JP8000 look great.
I think this is one reason the AN1X was kind of an underdog (and 
overlooked at first).
I seem to recall a KeyBORED mag article pitching the An1x, JP8000 and 
Nord lead in the late 90's as well.
Everyone seemed to think Roland's Analog synth heritage would carry 
over to the modeling world.
I ended up with a Nord Lead & AN1X (I never heard the Roland "carry 
over" that people were "yakking" about)- although I do prefer the 
sliders on the JP8000's Envelope controls to knobs (Weakness of 
spending too much time with an ARP2600).

On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 05:53 PM, Jerry Aiyathurai wrote:

>> I have a Bass sound I got off the net- that made me go
>> "Whoaaaaaaa...".
>> (but my "Whoooaaaa" bar may be a bit lower than yours)
>
> Todd:
>
> If you have a name and a source for that patch, I wonder if you could
> tell me. I occasionally play left hand bass when the bass player is a
> no show. So I put a couple of bass patches among my 128 each time ...
> just in case. I have kept changing them because I don't like them. I
> would make up/tweak one to my satisfaction. Then take it to play in
> the band and go. Yikes! In fact I sometimes prefer to play an
> electric bass sample off a rompler.
>
> I dunno if it's the programming on the patches I have or if there is
> a trick to playing synth bass sounds I haven't learned.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jerry

Jerry,

	It is a synth bass sound- with a slow attack (not a percussive sound).
I think it is called "Digibass" or "Digiridoo"- I'll have to check on 
it this weekend.

Todd :-)

> >> When  (make that IF ) Yamaha produces an AN2X or some such 
successor -

I think they will produce a child to the AN1X but a strangely cloned 
hybrid. They are too big to make analog modelling a marketing 
objective, but they will likely continue to explore alternative 
synthesis technology. Why? Because synth behemoth Roland has. 
Roland's V-synth takes the oscillator modelling from the VG88, not 
the JP8000. (If you've explored the VG, you will know what I mean, 
tonally.) Slap it together with the other intellectual property (IP) 
assets to define yet another alternative to romplers. Yamaha will do 
the same with their IP I believe. It looks like they found a way to 
use the filter algorithm from the An1X on the DX200. And they have 
FM, FSIR (formant) and VL technologies to put together. It should 
make for a nice mix. I can't believe the PLG modular system was the 
end. It was just the end of the beginning. A technological resting 
place to grab some cash, while their designers went back to the 
drawing board, with a broader, more ambitious view.

> Kind of funny how it all works out; on the cover of the November 
1997
> RECORDING Magazine, we had a shot of the Korg Z1, the Kawai K5000S,
> the Roland JP-8000, and the Yamaha AN1x floating in space (a real
> photo, not Photoshop, and an amazing setup job it was too!). I
> reviewed all four keyboards for the magazine. The Roland was the
> famous one that everyone was yakking about at the time, but I now
> find myself owning a K5000S and an AN1x and have access to two Z1s 
in
> my neighborhood when I need them, which isn't often thanks to my
> Prophecy. I never missed the JP again after it left the studio.

Funnily enough, all of those synths are still attractive to me but 
particularly the An1X, the Z1 and the K5000. The only thing I would 
want a JP8000 for is the feedback oscillator. Everything else about 
smacked of trying to recreate the past. By contrast all of these 
other synths, brought some digital goodies to the table. 

Soapbox on: The AN1X really shines when you explore that space where 
the edge parameters are less than 64, the oscillators aren't tuned to 
the same pitch, and the filter isn't necessarily low pass. It's not 
exactly subtractive synthesis, but not exactly additive either. It's 
very AN1X. Soapbox off. :)

Cheers,

Jerry

xpander said:
>
> On Wednesday, April 30, 2003, at 11:18 PM, Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City
> wrote:
>>> I've had my Xpander for a little over a decade (if we're keeping
>>> count).
>> Hah! Youngster. :)
>
> That made my day ;-)

Glad to be of service. ;)

> The models may sound closer to the real thing (and they DO have good
> mod routings)-
> But I must say I like DCOs- the 3 DCO synths I've owned (Juno 60,
> Matrix 1000, and Bit one) were wonderful.

I have owned a Juno 60 and a Juno 106 and a Bit One and a Polysix; none of
them sounded good enough against my Xpander to be worth keeping at the time,
and the Bit One's ludicrous MIDI implementation made me want to slam my head
in a car door.

> - and I've always been a fan of the PPG and Prophet VS (Digital OSC
> into VCF).

I've owned four VSes and two Waldorfs, and have done albums with everything
from the Wave 2.2 to the MicroWave XT. I know precisely what you mean and miss
the sounds terribly... but I've been stymied by lousy UI in the case of the
Waldorfs and lousy build quality in the case of the VSes. They were a
particularly sad story; I'd buy one, use it a lot, love it, run into a problem
with the construction that made it hard to use, sell it, miss it, run out, buy
another... at the end of four buy/sell cycles I figured out that I'd come out
about even, and I quit while I was almost ahead. Celine Dion's live band
leader on her pre-Vegas tours has one of my VS racks; he took me to the
cleaners on that deal. :\

>> I don't think it will happen, I'm afraid. The AN1x, the PL card, and
>> the AN200 did okay up to a point, but I don't think they generated
>> enough sales to warrant a lot more work on Yamaha's part. Analog
>> modeling seems to be more the province of the small eggsnatching
>> companies than the big hulking behemoths. All the more reasons to
>> treasure the AN1x as the watershed machine it is.
>
> Welcome to wishful thinking (Population : just me).
> Synth history says you're probably correct.
> How many great instruments were never taken to the next level because
> of poor market performance ? ( rhetorical ).

Aw shucky darns, I could have answered that one with a really long list...

> Love those classifications- (what's the third one?)
>
> 1. Hulking behemoths : 		Roland, Korg, Yamaha
> 2. Eggsnatching companies:  	Clavia, Waldorf, Access, Novation,
> Quasimidi & Redsound
> 3. Other: 					Emu, Akai, Kurzweil, Kawai
>
> I suppose Alesis is now an "eggsnatcher" since they have released a
> modeling synth.

No, Alesis is a post-buyout company. That's happened to a lot of keyboard
makers, with or without bankruptcy. It makes for a distinct grouping, and
includes Alesis, Kurzweil, Emu, Oberheim, and what's left of Ensoniq's corpse.

Akai qualifies as a behemoth now, thanks to the ongoing success of their
samplers and the MPC boxes. Kawai is tricky; they get in and out of the synth
business pretty regularly, but they're a huge keyboard company in general,
second only to Yamaha in piano manufacture in Japan. So they're a behemoth,
definitely not an eggsnatcher. And there you have your three groups! :)

>> Kind of funny how it all works out; on the cover of the November 1997
>> RECORDING Magazine, we had a shot of the Korg Z1, the Kawai K5000S,
>> the Roland JP-8000, and the Yamaha AN1x floating in space (a real
>> photo, not Photoshop, and an amazing setup job it was too!).
>
> Just took a peek at that cover ("Return of the Knob"- I like the title).
> The AN1X just doesn't LOOK like much- The Nord and JP8000 look great.
> I think this is one reason the AN1X was kind of an underdog (and
> overlooked at first).

Well, and the fact that in comparison to the other machines it was perceived
as being cheap (it retailed for almost $1000 less than any of the others) and
it looked too much like the CS1x, which everyone KNEW was cheap. I wish they'd
put a serial port on it, though!

mike

-- 
As a generalisation, the technology has NOTHING to do with the music.
For each specific artist, it has EVERYTHING to do with the music. (cassiel)
> < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > <
metlay / atomic city / metlay@... / http://www.atomiccity.com

Jerry Aiyathurai said:
> Funnily enough, all of those synths are still attractive to me but
> particularly the An1X, the Z1 and the K5000. The only thing I would
> want a JP8000 for is the feedback oscillator. Everything else about
> smacked of trying to recreate the past. By contrast all of these
> other synths, brought some digital goodies to the table.

I loved OSC 1 on the JP-8000 with all its bizarre waveforms. I wish I could
have put it in some other synth. (The Nord Modular comes close with a couple
of its oscillators and waveshapers.)

> Soapbox on: The AN1X really shines when you explore that space where
> the edge parameters are less than 64, the oscillators aren't tuned to
> the same pitch, and the filter isn't necessarily low pass. It's not
> exactly subtractive synthesis, but not exactly additive either. It's
> very AN1X. Soapbox off. :)

Yet another person who's "heard into" the AN1x. Bravo!

mike

-- 
As a generalisation, the technology has NOTHING to do with the music.
For each specific artist, it has EVERYTHING to do with the music. (cassiel)
> < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > < > <
metlay / atomic city / metlay@... / http://www.atomiccity.com