Emu XL-7 & MP-7 User's Group

On Saturday, September 8, 2001, at 08:45 PM, dubtribe@... 
wrote:

> --- In xl7@y..., Scott Ruda <scottr@e...> wrote:
>
>> There might be a problem if you insert the changes exactly at time
>>  zero, which might get overridden when the local MIDI map settings
>> are sent which is done when the sequence is first loaded. But I'm not
>> exactly sure how that works (I'll look into it).
>
> THIS explains a lot.
>
> let me ask you, with no scorn at all:
>
> where else would you be expected to put a program change???
>
> seems to me that this is a serious issue to overcome.
>
> nearly all program changes need to be located at 1.0.000 in order to
> operate prior to the note playing.

Some systems use a 'setup bar' so that any time consuming setup 
information can be sent and absorbed before the first beat. This 
technique is problematic within the definition of an SMF. It doesn't 
easily support the definition of a loop point, and there would need to 
be a way to define a setup bar plus a loop start point in a looping 
pattern sequence.

**-7 sends any setup information found at time 0 on pattern select in an 
attempt to get that stuff out of the way before you have pressed Play.

Have you tried Aaron's suggestion of putting 2 bank select/program 
changes at the beginning of the sequence - one to force the system off 
the desired preset in case it is already there on the local system and 
another to bring the internal and external sounds back to the right 
program?

My suggestion was that you could possibly put the program changes at 
tick 1, and then you might have to move all of your first note events to 
tick 2. That may or may not be practical and it might not loop very 
accurately. Aaron's suggestion should not have this problem, so it is a 
better workaround. Since the setup information is sent only once at 
pattern select time it will not cause any loop timing errors.

I'm sorry that this is causing troubles for you right now. We are 
looking into a clean way to resolve this.

Scott

As a unit that is supposed to be a main sequncer used for live 
use, how in the ell can something like progarms changes be left 
out.  I am really dissappointed that I have waited on this box and 
now i get it and it has a flaw like this.  i am a dealer, and a live 
perfoming artist and I have several shows coming up and a 
MP-7 that in my opinion is worthless.  The manual sucks and so 
does the support.  whats it take to get someone to answer the 
phone out there.  I have one week to get ready, I hope there is a 
solution.  the implemation chart reads 0-32-pc(0-127) for BC's 
and PC's.  I have that in my sequnce and it just won't send it 
externally. everything is enabled. JUNK until proven wrong or 
stupid

DHS,

made it up here.

still can't figure out why my fix for your problems doesn't work with 
Cubase.

glad to have found this list, and glad to see that you are being 
addressed at last.

for me, i cancelled our show for this coming friday bacause, like you, 
it's just not going to work using the MP-7.

already sold my RM1X, so i'm screwed.

let's see if these geezers can get it up and running in any sort of a 
functional way.

thanks for the referral.

S.

--- In xl7@y..., dubtribe@i... wrote:
> DHS,
> 
> made it up here.

and i guess i should have figured out how the Msg. board worked before 
i started typing away on it.

sorry folks.

so note taken, include prior message in post.

got it.

On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 08:48 AM, deephousesouldier@... 
wrote:

> the implemation chart reads 0-32-pc(0-127) for BC's
> and PC's.  I have that in my sequnce and it just won't send it
> externally. everything is enabled. JUNK until proven wrong or
> stupid

Can you explain this a bit more?

It there are bank selects/program changes in your sequence, as far as I 
know, the XL-7 should send them. The current limitation is only that you 
can't insert external changes into a sequence using the XL-7 itself 
(which as discussed, is scheduled for inclusion in a future revision of 
the XL-7 OS).

There might be a problem if you insert the changes exactly at time zero, 
which might get overridden when the local MIDI map settings are sent 
which is done when the sequence is first loaded. But I'm not exactly 
sure how that works (I'll look into it).

Can you send me an example SMF?

Scott

The sequencer is trying to be smart and not send program changes it doesn't
need to.  Basically, if the preset on channel 1 for example is already the
same as what the program change would set it to, it doesn't send it.
Obviously, the XL-7 doesn't know what your external gear is doing, so it
assumes that your external gear is set to the same thing as your internal
channels.

There is a way to "fake it out" however.  For the tracks you want external
program changes, you can set the track to "ext" instead of "both" in the
second to last screen in the pattern edit menu.  Then, make sure that
internal channel is on some other program than you're trying to send
externally.  This should make the XL-7 see the program change as different
from what's already on that channel.  Then when it does send the program
change, since it's not changing the internal channels, it will always be
different.

If that doesn't work (which it should if done correctly) try recording (from
external midi) or inserting in your cubase source file 2 different program
changes back to back (i.e. 12 then 13), where the second one (13) is really
the one you want.  This forces the second program change to be different,
thus always sending it.  That way you can use the "both" routing if you need
to.

-Aaron

 On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 08:48 AM, deephousesouldier@...
 wrote:

> the implemation chart reads 0-32-pc(0-127) for BC's
> and PC's.  I have that in my sequnce and it just won't send it
> externally. everything is enabled. JUNK until proven wrong or
> stupid

--- In xl7@y..., "Aaron Eppolito" <aarone+xl7@e...> wrote:
> The sequencer is trying to be smart and not send program changes it
doesn't
> need to.  Basically, if the preset on channel 1 for example is
already the
> same as what the program change would set it to, it doesn't send it.
> Obviously, the XL-7 doesn't know what your external gear is doing,
so it
> assumes that your external gear is set to the same thing as your
internal
> channels.
> 
> There is a way to "fake it out" however.  For the tracks you want
external
> program changes, you can set the track to "ext" instead of "both"
in the
> second to last screen in the pattern edit menu.  Then, make sure
that
> internal channel is on some other program than you're trying to send
> externally.  This should make the XL-7 see the program change as
different
> from what's already on that channel.  Then when it does send the
program
> change, since it's not changing the internal channels, it will
always be
> different.
> 
> If that doesn't work (which it should if done correctly) try
recording (from
> external midi) or inserting in your cubase source file 2 different
program
> changes back to back (i.e. 12 then 13), where the second one (13)
is really
> the one you want.  This forces the second program change to be
different,
> thus always sending it.  That way you can use the "both" routing if
you need
> to.
> 
> -Aaron
> 
>  On Saturday, September 1, 2001, at 08:48 AM, deephousesouldier@y...
>  wrote:
> 
> > the implemation chart reads 0-32-pc(0-127) for BC's
> > and PC's.  I have that in my sequnce and it just won't send it
> > externally. everything is enabled. JUNK until proven wrong or
> > stupid

Guys,

This is all very fine in theory, but it seems that there are some 
problems with the SMF format of the XL/MP.

try this experiment:

create a sequence in a computer based sequencer. be sure and create 
program changes.

export it as an SMF.

download it to the XL/MP

now watch your program changes go totally out to lunch. some are 
correct, others and missing and others are totally wrong.

makes no sense.

so now upload this sequnce to your computer.

look at it along side the original.

there are added files:

an Emu Macro
some midi mixer settings you have not added
and there are your PC and BC's only they are wrong, AND there are no 
BC's any more. the instruction is present, but the actual bank number 
is missing.

i admire Emu's thoughtfullness about not sending a PC everytime the 
pattern loops. this is VERY handy for live manipulation of sounds. 
still, there has to be a way to translate in both directions with the 
device.

try this test, and please let me know how you made out.

at the moment i am creating my SMF's in Logic, Downloading to the
MP-7, 
and then Uploading the saved file to the Computer again, and
correcting 
them in Logic. THEN i download them one last time and they seem to
work 
fine.

ultimately i'd like to be working in MP-7 only for live sequences,
but 
it's not happening without a list editor or a way of determening 
external PC's and BC info.

DSS

--- In xl7@y..., Scott Ruda <scottr@e...> wrote:

> There might be a problem if you insert the changes exactly at time 
>  zero, which might get overridden when the local MIDI map settings   > are sent which is done when the sequence is first loaded. But I'm not > exactly sure how that works (I'll look into it).

THIS explains a lot.

let me ask you, with no scorn at all:

where else would you be expected to put a program change???

seems to me that this is a serious issue to overcome.

nearly all program changes need to be located at 1.0.000 in order to 
operate prior to the note playing.

also, the PC needs to be ignored once it is sent, so the sound isn't 
constantly being recalled. and because many modern synths sadly glitch 
when a PC is received. soe do, some don't but ignoring the PC once it's 
been sent is also crucial.

big stuff. close to home.

DSS

--- In xl7@y..., Scott Ruda <scottr@e...> wrote:

> Some systems use a 'setup bar' so that any time consuming setup 
> information can be sent and absorbed before the first beat. This 
> technique is problematic within the definition of an SMF. It doesn't 
> easily support the definition of a loop point, and there would need to 
> be a way to define a setup bar plus a loop start point in a looping 
> pattern sequence.
> 
> **-7 sends any setup information found at time 0 on pattern select in an 
> attempt to get that stuff out of the way before you have pressed Play.

This suggestion s a decent one, but for real performance based 
sequencing, a setup bar isn't really practical. as the empty bar means 
stoping, or loading in one form or another.

ultimately the thing has got to be instant for function in the modern 
electronic music world.

granted, various external devices respond diferently to PC and BC 
commands. that should be no real concern of yours. i think that, 
currently the machine works very well using the internal sounds. 
problem is, for a serious live performer, the internal sounds won't be 
enough. i have the MP sounds (only ok) and i already own a dozen or 
more Emu sampling CD's, so for me the sound solution was to score the 
Flash Rom. still, it is essential to use extrnal gear in order for me 
to sound like Dubtribe Sound system when i perform.

so i think as long as there's access to the info and SMF files 
translate correctly between applications and the device, all should be 
well.

it seems that paying too much attention to setup, will only cause 
delays and that would be the worst thing of all...
 
> Have you tried Aaron's suggestion of putting 2 bank select/program 
> changes at the beginning of the sequence - one to force the system off 
> the desired preset in case it is already there on the local system and 
> another to bring the internal and external sounds back to the right 
> program?
> 
> My suggestion was that you could possibly put the program changes at 
> tick 1, and then you might have to move all of your first note events to 
> tick 2. That may or may not be practical and it might not loop very 
> accurately. Aaron's suggestion should not have this problem, so it is a 
> better workaround. Since the setup information is sent only once at 
> pattern select time it will not cause any loop timing errors.

i hear you. but it's just not reasonable to create those kind of blank 
sections or built in delays in live sequencing.

i can send you some CD's of our work (133 12" single and 10 CD's since 
1989) and i also think you might spend a few hours in front of an 
Alesis MMT-8. ultimately this device, however crude, is the model for 
live arrangement.

i have three or four of them and could hook anyone at Emu up with one 
for a week or so.

let me know via email if you are interested in that offer. 
 
> I'm sorry that this is causing troubles for you right now. We are 
> looking into a clean way to resolve this.
> 
> Scott

no sweat, i believe you will. and appreciate your presence here on the 
board.

keep it up!

Sunshine