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Problem recording external MIDI

Problem recording external MIDI

2019-11-10 by bgutman@...

Hi folks,

Maybe you can help me solve a strange conundrum.


I'm trying to use the XL-7 slaved to my master sequencer (MPC1000), which is also sending data to other synths. On the XL-7, I have disabled those MIDI channels that it should ignore, and during playback everything's fine. However, when I record to XL-7's sequencer, it seems to record MIDI from those channels into currently selected track. This totally looks like "rechannelize MIDI", but I've double-checked and made sure that "rechannelize" is OFF. 


Any ideas? Hopefully I'm missing something obvious here...

Re: Problem recording external MIDI

2019-11-11 by smw-mail@...

Thanks for the clarifications.  They make sense with my assumption that MIDI Enable settings are MIDI => Sound Module settings.  So, if all incoming MIDI data gets recorded in the sequencer (i.e., no filter-by-midi-channel option), I think that means you would need to record all midi channels (MultiA or MultiB) and then filter the data by editing.

I have extremely limited experience editing using the on-board editor (mainly minor tweaking). Wish I could be more helpful.

[snip - options deleted from a draft reply**]

Take a look at the Command Station OS2.0 addendum.

"Explode Tracks
This function takes multichannel data on the clipboard and divides it up by
MIDI channel over all existing tracks, mixing with any data already there.
Channel 1 will go to track 1, channel 2 to track 2, etc. This is the case even
if the track routings do not match. (i.e. if track 7 is assigned to channel 3)."

I haven't done this, but it seems to me maybe you could (maybe):

1. Copy the MultiA recording (so you preserve the original!!!) to another track.
2. Move it (from the copy!!!) to the clipboard.
3. Explode it to get the channels onto 16 tracks.
4a. Delete the tracks/channels you want to exclude, or 
4b. Use a selective "COMBINE SELECTED TRACKS TO CLIPBOARD"

etc.

Again, I have not done this--ever!!!  Maybe someone else here has experience with using the Clipboard.

WARNING: If it were me, I'd make several copies of the MultiA track (and probably back it up using e-loader!) just in case.

Steve

**I deleted some thoughts about options not involving the E-Mu sequencer's on-board editor, but if the editor does what you want, that might be quickest.

Hmmmmm.  I am not sure if the clipboard commands use valuable write cycles in non-volatile RAM or if they only use short-term RAM.  Maybe someone else knows. If write cycles are used extensively for clipboard processing, there are options to edit the data in a sequencer/DAW. Another option involves externally filtering the data on the way in to the E-Mu.




Re: Problem recording external MIDI

2019-11-11 by smw-mail@...

PS: If you just want to exclude some channels from the full MultiA recording, perhaps you could just explode it to individual channels and use the track-by-track CHANNEL ASSIGN feature. Destinations can be none, internal, external, or both internal and external.  

Once exploded to individual tracks, perhaps it would be easiest to tell the sound module portion to ignore certain single-channel tracks and to play others.

Steve

Re: Problem recording external MIDI

2019-11-12 by bgutman@...

Thank you Steve.

Alas, this seems like a bug in the sequencer, and not some configuration setting that I've missed.

I found a thread on Gearslutz describing exactly the same issue:


There's no solution or workaround offered, and ironically, the thread ends with a suggestion to ask on XL-7 Yahoo Group 

Re: Problem recording external MIDI

2019-11-12 by smw-mail@...

I am not sure it qualifies as a genuine bug. To me it seems more like a design decision to record midi data (notes, CCs, etc.) on all channels and to not have an in bound filter, perhaps in order to focus on throughput.
Perhaps it was an intentional decision, just like it was (as I understand it) a decision not to record sysex data in the sequencer.

Unless we hear from the author of the OS, I am not sure we can know.

I recall there has been confusion by users as to what re-channelize does and perhaps when that feature was implemented, maybe it could have been designed in such a way as to include user mapping and selecting of channels.

So far as I recall, though, re-channelize does what it claims to do.

"No matter what I set 'Rechannelize input' to, it always seems to record incoming midi data from ANY channel into the currently selected track on the Command Station."

I have seen before where people who come from hardware or software that use track and channel differently or who are used to recording multiple tracks at a time have some cognitive inertia to overcome. 

As far as a workaround, when you consider the sequencer and the sound module/synth engine as two systems within one box, I am not sure why recording midi data (notes, CCs, etc.) on all channels, but only sending it to some of the channels doesn't work.  

I have not found time to test that recently, but I definitely recall having developed patterns where I sent some midi data to the internal synth and other data to external gear.  IIRC this was done by using the CHANNEL ASSIGN parameters under pattern edit.

For each of the 16 tracks (T01 -> T16) we can:
(1) Assign the track to: MultiA, MultiB, or any of the 32 midi channels we have (C01A -> C16B), and
(2) Choose to (a) not send the midi data (none), (b) send it only to the internal sound module, (c) send it only to external gear, or (d) send it both internally and externally.

However, if you have a multi channel track, so far as I can see, you cannot choose to filter out certain channels to to send.  It sounds like that is a feature that would benefit you in what you are trying to do.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Rechannelize (from the Command Station Addendum for OS 1.31):

"This new screen has been added to the MIDI menu. This feature makes it
easier to record to the internal sequencer using an external keyboard.
Rechannelize Input changes the channel and destination of incoming
MIDI data according to the settings in the Channel Assignment screen.
To record multiple tracks, you simply change the track number and preset.
You don’t have to change the channel number of your external MIDI
controller."

The OS 1.31 Addendum has a number of diagrams which over the years I have found invaluable for understanding how midi data flow has been implemented.  I highly recommend them. 

Perhaps if the Command Station/P2500 line had continued, we might have seen updates past OS 2.0 and perhaps the OS 2.1 or 2.2 Addendum might have included an Input Channel Filter feature. Not sure if its at Gearslutz, but somewhere there is a wish-list thread I believe for the E-Mu Ultra line of samplers. Not sure if there is a fantasy theme thread for Command Stations.

Personally, I would love to see a new-improved Command Station/P2500 with features from the ultra samplers plus OS feature additions--that maintains reverse compatibility with the ROMPlers and the new features added to the Emulator X line. 






Re: Problem recording external MIDI

2019-11-12 by smw-mail@...

From the referenced 2014 Gearslutz thread:

"No matter what I set "Rechannelize input" to, it always seems to record incoming midi data from ANY channel into the currently selected track on the Command Station. Basically, it behaves as if the Rechannelize input setting is set to "on record", and was wondering if this is simply a known bug (I've seen a mention of it in my research) or if someone has actually figured out a way to get this to work."

I think the OS 1.31 Addendum is pretty direct as to what the function does--for the most part.  While the description might allow for multiple interpretations for the implementation of "rechannelize," I think the "Block Diagrams" add far more details about how it is implemented.

The LCD (24 x 2) really doesn't explain it at all:

RECHANNELIZE INPUT
To Track Destination:   [off/always/on record]

Looking at just the panel and without knowing that the sequencer only records one track at a time (the destination track), I can easily infer that rechannelize could mean, "Hey, XL-7, take incoming multichannel midi data and put it into different tracks."

Perhaps there were a number of feature requests/comments based on this and so in OS 2.0 the explode/combine features were added as (after-the-fact) editing options (as opposed to real time input filtering).

Explode/Combine Tracks (excerpts from the OS 2.0 Addendum):

"These new functions facilitate the interchange between single multichannel
tracks and multiple single-channel tracks. Both of these functions
use the clipboard as the intermediary step in the conversion."

"If the destination track isn’t set to Multi A or B, the track will play back rechannelized
onto a single MIDI channel. Select MultiA or MultiB to play back multiple MIDI channels on
a track."

In the Addendum to OS 1.31, there is a paragraph that is open to misinterpretation if someone comes to the E-Mu sequencer from software or hardware that allows for multiple tracks to be recorded simultaneously.

"This new screen has been added to the MIDI menu. This feature makes it
easier to record to the internal sequencer using an external keyboard.
Rechannelize Input changes the channel and destination of incoming
MIDI data according to the settings in the Channel Assignment screen."

"To record multiple tracks, you simply change the track number and preset.
You don’t have to change the channel number of your external MIDI
controller."

"Rechannelize Input can be set to Off, Always or On Record. When set to
On Record, the input will only be rechannelized when the Record LED is
illuminated (Record or Record-Pause mode). This allows normal MIDI
channel routing except when recording, when the channel data will be
changed to match the current track."

The middle paragraph above refers to recording multiple tracks sequentially.

With the new rechannelize feature, users can set the channel for the [single] destination track in a new way from the previous OS.  Let's say I use an external keyboard set to transmit on midi channels 1 to record track 1.  With Rechannelize = on record, once I "simply change the track number and preset" to record a second track, even though my keyboard is sending midi data on midi channel 1, the E-Mu sequencer will rechannelize the data to match the track number.

Then when OS 2.0 came along, I should then have gotten the ability to take a pattern with 16 single channel rechannelized tracks and use the new clipboard features (combine, specifically), to make a single multi-channel [MIDIA or MIDIB] track, thereby freeing up other tracks.

As I said in the previous post, too bad OS 2.0 was the last OS and we never got the benefit of new features--such as "Filter Incoming Data" [off, always, on record].  :-(  

Every so often I think of contacting a current gear manufacturer with thoughts on a new-and-improved-yet-reverse-compatible clone of our beloved abandoned/legacy E-Mus. I'd definitely suggest adding real time filtering.

BTW, I don't know if you do any DIY circuit building/programming, but with my admittedly extremely limited experience with an arduino project, I have no doubt an external midi channel filter could be created.   Also, if my parallel port midi interface worked under Windows 10, I am sure the accompanying software could handle the channel-by-channel filtering. Its unfortunate that you can't choose which channels to send your E-Mu from the other gear.

Steve


 

Re: Problem recording external MIDI

2019-11-12 by smw-mail@...

It seems like in 2014 I was correct in interpreting the setup and goals (as posted in Gearslutz and here).  It also looks like I did relevant testing that I didn't do now.  It also looks like my conclusions are consistent and my 2014 suggestions given the setup presented might apply to similar setups where multiple devices are routed together.  

Thanks for posting the link to the Gearslutz discussion; for what its worth I will post a link to the 2014 thread here--just in case someone else finds it there and is interested in the continuation of the discussion.

Also thanks for helping to confirm that even though I no longer have* the ability to recall specific conversations I have had here [*I used to be able to remember them and locate them!], at least my reconstruction of similar  circumstances lead to consistent conclusions. :-)

-----------------------------
From my 2014 post here (with a few typos corrected and a few lines now emphasized):

"I just ran some tests that confirmed what I expected. Basically, I created a short 4 track thing in SONAR (on midi tracks 1 through 4) and played it into my P2500. I tried various combinations of settings within the P2500 (rechannelize, channel assign destination, and midi enable). I have not actively recorded tracks on the E-Mu sequencer in years, so it took a while to relearn what does what.  So far as I can tell, the E-Mu sequencer (CS or P2500) will not filter out incoming data based on midi channel.  I was successful, however, with my trusted parallel port motu midi express - an 8 x 8 midi router. In fact, it was relatively easy to only allow data from one midi channel to go into the P2500.

A few words about RECHANNELIZE INPUT. So far as I can tell, that function only controls whether or not incoming midi data going to a single specific track ("To Track Dest.") gets converted to the midi channel that matches the track you are recording on. With this function set to "off" my 4 midi channels of data coming from SONAR were recorded  onto Track 1 corresponding to midi channels 1 through 4.  With the function set to "always" or "on record" all 4 channels of midi data were forced to C01A (corresponding with Track 1--the Dest. track.)

As for the MIDI ENABLE parameter, so far as I can tell, that won't help with filtering incoming midi data going to the sequencer. It does do the other thing.

Well, I hope this helps. 

Steve"

Re: Problem recording external MIDI

2019-11-13 by bgutman@...


I've read it, and there's no solution or workaround in that thread either ))

So, it seems like it is what it is. I consider it a bug because what's recorded is not what you heard while recording. If there's no way around it, I'll just record everything to master sequencer and use the Command Station as a sound module. Thanks anyway!