Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Command Station confusion

2017-10-24 by Adsr Multimedia

Hello,

please help me sort out a confusion I have with the XL7 rev. G (AFAIK the latest) manual.

On page 41 the following is stated:

When “Knobs MIDI Out” in the MIDI menu is enabled, any knob change
will send MIDI cc#7 to the MIDI out port as well as controlling the internal
channel volume.
In this mode, the LEDs next to the sixteen knobs blink to indicate MIDI
activity on the same numbered MIDI channel (from the keypads, sequencer
or external MIDI sources).

Now...

1. I don't have "Knobs MIDI Out" in the MIDI menu. Am I blind? How should I find it?

2. It seems to me, regardless of track destination MIDI Volume is always sent, which is a big bummer.

3. No blinks whatsoever.

Is there a way to control internal channel volume but don't send it to MIDI Out?

Thanks,

Zsolt

Re: Command Station confusion

2017-10-24 by smw-mail@...

What OS does the XL7 have? I will assume you have 2.0 until you say something else.
Next, I see the section on page 41 of Rev.G [pdf page 53].
Above the paragraphs you quote it says:

Multichannel Volume Knobs
In this mode, each of the 16 knobs will control MIDI Channel Volume for
the like-numbered channel. This directly edits the value shown on the
preset select screen and is equivalent to sending MIDI cc#7.

CH VOLS
01A:098

View Mode must be set to “MIX” in order to see the display shown above.

That's just telling you, if you want the 4 x 4 set of knobs to send CC#7 you need to press the button so that the led next "Volume" is lit. If you want the knobs to control Pan, press the button one more time so the led next to "Pan" is lit. You probably knew that, but I had to step through it myself!

Next, press the MIDI button and scroll through the menus. I have one that says "KNOBS OUTPUT MIDI" with two choices: "don't transmit" and "transmit."

When “KNOBS OUTPUT MIDI” in the MIDI menu is set to transmit, any knob change
will send MIDI cc#7 to the MIDI out port as well as controlling the internal
channel volume.

I think that might be what it should say on page 41 [53 of the pdf].

It sounds as if you don't want CC#7 sent using the 4 x 4 knobs if I understand what you mean by "2. It seems to me, regardless of track destination MIDI Volume is always sent, which is a big bummer." But that can't be right because the answer would be, "Don't set the knobs to Volume mode."

As for "3. No blinks whatseover," I am not sure if you are playing back a pattern that has volume CC data on it and watching to see if the 4 x 4 leds blink in Volume mode.

Is there a way to control internal channel volume but don't send it to MIDI Out?
Yes, where it says KNOBS OUTPUT MIDI" select "don't transmit."

I am not sure this is what you are looking for, but I hope it helps get you in the right direction. Maybe some followup questions will help here.

Steve

RE: [xl7] Re: Command Station confusion

2017-10-24 by Nicolas Nicobios

Hi,

I have OS v1.17.

I would like to upgrade to v2.00 like my older.

And upload factory preset.

Regards,

Nicolas

De : xl7@yahoogroups.com de la part de smw-mail@prodigy.net [xl7]
Envoyé : mardi 24 octobre 2017 21:08
À : xl7@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [xl7] Re: Command Station confusion

What OS does the XL7 have? I will assume you have 2.0 until you say something else.
Next, I see the section on page 41 of Rev.G [pdf page 53].
Above the paragraphs you quote it says:

Multichannel Volume Knobs
In this mode, each of the 16 knobs will control MIDI Channel Volume for
the like-numbered channel. This directly edits the value shown on the
preset select screen and is equivalent to sending MIDI cc#7.

CH VOLS
01A:098

View Mode must be set to “MIX” in order to see the display shown above.

That's just telling you, if you want the 4 x 4 set of knobs to send CC#7 you need to press the button so that the led next "Volume" is lit. If you want the knobs to control Pan, press the button one more time so the led next to "Pan" is lit. You probably knew that, but I had to step through it myself!

Next, press the MIDI button and scroll through the menus. I have one that says "KNOBS OUTPUT MIDI" with two choices: "don't transmit" and "transmit."

When “KNOBS OUTPUT MIDI” in the MIDI menu is set to transmit, any knob change
will send MIDI cc#7 to the MIDI out port as well as controlling the internal
channel volume.

I think that might be what it should say on page 41 [53 of the pdf].

It sounds as if you don't want CC#7 sent using the 4 x 4 knobs if I understand what you mean by "2. It seems to me, regardless of track destination MIDI Volume is always sent, which is a big bummer." But that can't be right because the answer would be, "Don't set the knobs to Volume mode."

As for "3. No blinks whatseover," I am not sure if you are playing back a pattern that has volume CC data on it and watching to see if the 4 x 4 leds blink in Volume mode.

Is there a way to control internal channel volume but don't send it to MIDI Out?
Yes, where it says KNOBS OUTPUT MIDI" select "don't transmit."

I am not sure this is what you are looking for, but I hope it helps get you in the right direction. Maybe some followup questions will help here.

Steve

Re: [xl7] Re: Command Station confusion

2017-10-25 by Adsr Multimedia

Hi Steve,

thanks for your answer.
Yes, I have OS 2.0.

Blinks was found. I just thought it should blink while I'm tweaking the pots during EDIT. Instead, it blinks during PLAY.

That's OK.

Regarding your other answers:

I'm not a native English speaker, and I found the

"
In this mode, each of the 16 knobs will control MIDI Channel Volume for
the like-numbered channel. This directly edits the value shown on the
preset select screen and is equivalent to sending MIDI cc#7.

"

paragraph confusing. Confusing in that I interpreted the "equivalent to sending MIDI cc#7" words as SENT TO THE XL7, aka INCOMING MIDI CC7.

I understand external control and it's OK.

I just thought per the manual there's an option to explicitly block sending CC7, while other CCs are sent.

Clearly that's not the case and I can understand why, and it's logical.

I wanted to accomplish separate volume control from the XL7 surface alone.

That's not possible. So I have to reach to the external instrument and control volume there if

I want different (temporary or fixed) levels for internal and external sounds. Not a too big hassle, but still...

Of course I can implement a MIDI filter inbetween the XL7 and extrnal instrument, if all else fails.

Thanks.

Regards,

Zsolt

2017-10-24 23:08 GMT+02:00 smw-mail@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:

What OS does the XL7 have? I will assume you have 2.0 until you say something else.
Next, I see the section on page 41 of Rev.G [pdf page 53].
Above the paragraphs you quote it says:

Multichannel Volume Knobs
In this mode, each of the 16 knobs will control MIDI Channel Volume for
the like-numbered channel. This directly edits the value shown on the
preset select screen and is equivalent to sending MIDI cc#7.

CH VOLS
01A:098

View Mode must be set to “MIX” in order to see the display shown above.

That's just telling you, if you want the 4 x 4 set of knobs to send CC#7 you need to press the button so that the led next "Volume" is lit. If you want the knobs to control Pan, press the button one more time so the led next to "Pan" is lit. You probably knew that, but I had to step through it myself!

Next, press the MIDI button and scroll through the menus. I have one that says "KNOBS OUTPUT MIDI" with two choices: "don't transmit" and "transmit."

When “KNOBS OUTPUT MIDI” in the MIDI menu is set to transmit, any knob change
will send MIDI cc#7 to the MIDI out port as well as controlling the internal
channel volume.

I think that might be what it should say on page 41 [53 of the pdf].

It sounds as if you don't want CC#7 sent using the 4 x 4 knobs if I understand what you mean by "2. It seems to me, regardless of track destination MIDI Volume is always sent, which is a big bummer." But that can't be right because the answer would be, "Don't set the knobs to Volume mode."

As for "3. No blinks whatseover," I am not sure if you are playing back a pattern that has volume CC data on it and watching to see if the 4 x 4 leds blink in Volume mode.

Is there a way to control internal channel volume but don't send it to MIDI Out?
Yes, where it says KNOBS OUTPUT MIDI" select "don't transmit."

I am not sure this is what you are looking for, but I hope it helps get you in the right direction. Maybe some followup questions will help here.

Steve

Re: [xl7] Re: Command Station confusion

2017-10-27 by Adsr Multimedia

OK, more questions on the way.

My setup in question:

Windows, Steinberg Nuendo, RME Fireface 800, XL7.

System is rock solid.

1.

What's with MIDI Song Position Pointer?

I cannot get XL7 to interpret it reliably. Sometimes it follows, but usually, at the end of the loop in the master sequencer (Steinberg Nuendo)

the XL7 gets stalled, stops, then after some time starts following Nuendo's master MIDI Clock and SPP again.

With lots of hiccups. It's basically unusable.

Does following MIDI SPP work actually?

2.

I see disturbing fluctuations in tempo, both when using XL7 as master, as well as slave.

Base tempo being 127 BPM, the fluctuation is +/- 2 BPM usually, and rarely even +/- 3 or 4 BPM.

All this with a fairly empty sequence.

I'd like to hear what's the situation with other CS user's gear or setup.

Thanks,

Zsolt

Regards,

Zsolt

2017-10-26 1:49 GMT+02:00 smw-mail@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:

Thanks for the clarification; I have a better idea of what you were trying to do.

Even for a native reader of English, the manual can be confusing. When I first got my Proteus 2500, I read the manual several times and later discovered more things that I didn't understand from the first or second reading. Plus, the CS/P2500 is a very complex and flexible piece of musical gear. I have the Block Diagrams from 336-340 in plastic "sheet protectors" because they get a lot of use!

As for CCs you can assign MIDIA -> MIDIP to different CCs. However, some are hard coded in the OS. CC7 will be volume, CC10 will be pan, There are some CCs in the 80 range that are hard coded to do specific things--select a Multisetup, change arp mode, etc. See pp. 348-351.

I don't know if this will help with what you want to do, but sometimes I will use CC11 [Expression] as a sort of sub-volume and leave CC7 alone.

Steve

Re: Command Station confusion

2017-10-28 by smw-mail@...

I use SPP mostly years before I got my P2500; so, I have almost no experience with it on e-mu gear. Maybe someone else can. I'd recommend asking Balma (and others) at his tutorial thread at gearslutz in addition to people who might know here. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/942396-e-mu-command-station-xl-7-mp-7-pk-7-proteus-2500-tutorials.html

For midi sync with SONAR (and assorted gear), I always have the P2500 as midi clock master. For me OS 2.0 solved midi clock issues with earlier OSes. Also, I love being able to use the knob on the P2500 to send the BPM midi clock to gear--even across a long distance (15-20 feet?) and through a midi router.

I believe the update of the BPM clock in the E-Mu display is a lesser priority than playing track data. Just my gut opinion, not official knowledge of any sort.

A few years ago, I tested an arduino as master midi clock to the P2500 pushing it to the max (300 BPM). With regular midi clock, the sync was fine.

If it's still an issue, maybe over Thanksgiving (end of November), I can do some testing with SONAR and SPP. I might be able to do a simple test sooner. I assume your E-Mu is in Song mode (not pattern mode). Am I right? I cannot wrap my head around SPP working in pattern mode.

Steve

Re: [xl7] Re: Command Station confusion

2017-10-28 by Adsr Multimedia

Hi Steve,

thanks again for your kind help. I have my CS for 7 years, albeit I used it only for music.

The situation is changed now. I use the CS for VJ work, purely as a sequencer. For now I'm not interested in sound generation features.

I use the sequencer, MIDI, controller, arp and live control features.

I use pattern mode exclusively. Song mode would be used for complete shows or "visual short stories", but that will be in the future.

I need solid MIDI timing. The CS is a letdown in this regard. For years I used it happily for music, in an all hardware setup

and the MIDI jitter didn't bother me at all. My sequences were much dense, for sure, and in live settings wasn't important.

But let's put music away for now.

I use a VJ app, which is MIDI controllable. It is capable of MIDI sync, BUT can't act as master (cannot send MIDI Clock).

This app, when slaved to the CS, displays horrible MIDI jitter. The really sore point is the music.

+/- few BPM jitter would be practically unrecognizable in pictures, but causes havoc in the underlying music.

It's very recognizable, unmusical, and brakes the whole audiovisual experience.

Regards,

Zsolt

2017-10-28 20:49 GMT+02:00 smw-mail@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:

I use SPP mostly years before I got my P2500; so, I have almost no experience with it on e-mu gear. Maybe someone else can. I';d recommend asking Balma (and others) at his tutorial thread at gearslutz in addition to people who might know here. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/942396-e-mu-command-station-xl-7-mp-7-pk-7-proteus-2500-tutorials.html

For midi sync with SONAR (and assorted gear), I always have the P2500 as midi clock master. For me OS 2.0 solved midi clock issues with earlier OSes. Also, I love being able to use the knob on the P2500 to send the BPM midi clock to gear--even across a long distance (15-20 feet?) and through a midi router.

I believe the update of the BPM clock in the E-Mu display is a lesser priority than playing track data. Just my gut opinion, not official knowledge of any sort.

A few years ago, I tested an arduino as master midi clock to the P2500 pushing it to the max (300 BPM). With regular midi clock, the sync was fine.

If it's still an issue, maybe over Thanksgiving (end of November), I can do some testing with SONAR and SPP. I might be able to do a simple test sooner. I assume your E-Mu is in Song mode (not pattern mode). Am I right? I cannot wrap my head around SPP working in pattern mode.

Steve

Re: [xl7] Re: Command Station confusion

2017-10-29 by Adsr Multimedia

Hi Bruno,

my setup is quite similar to yours, it seems.

Ok, here's my detailed setup:

Main PC: HP Elitebook 8570p, Windows 10 Pro.

Secondary PC: IBM Thinkpad T43. Windows 7 and XP.

MIDI interface: Emagic AMT8.

Audio + MIDI interface: RME Fireface 800.

Thing is, when XL7 is slaved to Nuendo via MIDI clock, still exhibits a +/- 1-2 BPM drift. Just tested.

On Windows 10 and 7, AMT8 and FF800, in all combinations. I'm baffled.

Nuendo shows a steady 127 BPM, and on the XL7 the display fluctuates wildly.

May I ask, how did you check the MIDI clock sent by your CS on the receiving side?

Regards,

Zsolt

2017. okt. 29. 10:04 ezt írta ("Bruno brunorc@gmail.com [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>):

Hi Zsolt,

2017-10-29 1:28 GMT+02:00 Adsr Multimedia adsr.multimedia@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:

I use a VJ app, which is MIDI controllable. It is capable of MIDI sync, BUT can't act as master (cannot send MIDI Clock).
This app, when slaved to the CS, displays horrible MIDI jitter. The really sore point is the music.

I have a pile of MIIDI-clocked synth gear, and everything (including a second CS, the MP-7) is happily clocked with XL-7, distributing it's signal across four stacked Unitor MIDI interfaces. Apart from Yamaha EX5, which (with the OS I have) cannot reliably sync to the external MIDI Clock, any other synth is happy to follow the BPM dictated by CS. I would suggest to check your VJ app with another source of MIDI Clock. I recall having a jam session with someone using Ableton Live (it was version 6, IIRC), and we couldn't get it follow the BPM coming from CS. All was fine and dandy, when we were just checking if the app receives the clock, but it couldn't play in sync.

If you don't believe the ~20 years old gear, simply use another computer with a MIDI sequencer running on it.

Just to make it clear: I'm not going to defend CS until my honorable death on the battlefield. There are (known) bugs in its OS, but I would simply suggest examining all the elements of your setup. Also, what MIDI interface do you use? Are you sure it doesn't introduce any delay in clock messages?

Bruno

Re: [xl7] Re: Command Station confusion

2017-10-30 by smw-mail@...

Thanks for the update. I will see if maybe this weekend I can send my P2500 into midi-ox to compare with your results. I might even try my emagic MT4 (little brother to one of your interfaces IIRC). I mention the MT4, because it's midi thruput is absolutely horrible--it couldn't even handle the after touch stream from a Casio DH-100!!!

I never measured BPM in midi-ox. Hope it's easy. If not, I will ask how you did it.

Steve