Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-13 by Jack Pratt
The pin connections from the P2K SIMM use the standard data pins of a DRAM SIMM for data (with the upper 16-bits shorted to the lower 16-bits since the SIMMs are 16-bits wide rather than 32-bits wide). Power signals are the same as a DRAM SIMM
The address pins for the P2K SIMMs are taken from all the other signals on the DRAM SIMM. What Apple has done in a Macintosh is anyones guess (I spose I could check out the hardware reference manual) but there is no way that one of these would be compatible with a P2K since the P2K needs to have a second FLASH bank for the preset memory.
And you couldn't really have an 'adapter' to "modern storage" because the interface is random parallel access at about 130ns which is way too short to convert the address signals to an access cycle for something else. You could have RAM on a device and dump an image from some other storage to that but having enough RAM is prohibitive even using PSRAM.
...
I hadn't realised that there was still interest in a P2K FLASH SIMM. I have a design (that needs the PCB layout completed - about half way through) that would allow SIMM images to be downloaded via USB, play live sound via USB and simultaneously operate as up to 4 SIMMs (128MB) at once. Shouldn't take too long to finish off if there's a market. I would guess a cost of $200-$250 for them depending on how many I make at a time.�
Also have to "read" the contents of existing ROMs to be able to use them but I have a finished design for that which just needs to be made.
From: "Bruno brunorc@... [p2k]"
To: xl7 ; p2k
Sent: Sunday, 8 March 2015, 18:42
Subject: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
To: xl7 ; p2k
Sent: Sunday, 8 March 2015, 18:42
Subject: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
�
No USB, but still... anyone more tech-savvy can say something about it (apart from the fact that we would need 32MB ROMs):
http://www.downtowndougbrown.com/programmable-mac-rom-simms/
http://www.downtowndougbrown.com/programmable-mac-rom-simms/
Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-14 by George G
Yes man, I have 3 command stations I will buy 12 !!!
So do it please
Thanks
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
�The pin connections from the P2K SIMM use the standard data pins of a DRAM SIMM for data (with the upper 16-bits shorted to the lower 16-bits since the SIMMs are 16-bits wide rather than 32-bits wide). Power signals are the same as a DRAM SIMMThe address pins for the P2K SIMMs are taken from all the other signals on the DRAM SIMM. What Apple has done in a Macintosh is anyones guess (I spose I could check out the hardware reference manual) but there is no way that one of these would be compatible with a P2K since the P2K needs to have a second FLASH bank for the preset memory.And you couldn't really have an 'adapter' to "modern storage" because the interface is random parallel access at about 130ns which is way too short to convert the address signals to an access cycle for something else. You could have RAM on a device and dump an image from some other storage to that but having enough RAM is prohibitive even using PSRAM....I hadn't realised that there was still interest in a P2K FLASH SIMM. I have a design (that needs the PCB layout completed - about half way through) that would allow SIMM images to be downloaded via USB, play live sound via USB and simultaneously operate as up to 4 SIMMs (128MB) at once. Shouldn't take too long to finish off if there's a market. I would guess a cost of $200-$250 for them depending on how many I make at a time.�Also have to "read" the contents of existing ROMs to be able to use them but I have a finished design for that which just needs to be made.
From: "Bruno brunorc@... [p2k]" <p2k@yahoogroups.com>
To: xl7 <xl7@yahoogroups.com>; p2k <p2k@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 8 March 2015, 18:42
Subject: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
�No USB, but still... anyone more tech-savvy can say something about it (apart from the fact that we would need 32MB ROMs):
http://www.downtowndougbrown.com/programmable-mac-rom-simms/
Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-14 by Bruno
If I recall correctly, George would need only three ROMs, since they were supposed to be able to act as one, two or four ROMs at once, thus they are able to provide a complete soundbase for a CS.
I have two P2ks, two CSes and one wife, so I think I would go for 2-4 ROMs and I would LOVE to see a community repository of ROM images, khem khem.2015-03-14 11:06 GMT+01:00 George G pluto_ro@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:
Yes man, I have 3 command stations I will buy 12 !!!So do it pleaseThanks
Sent from my iPhoneThe pin connections from the P2K SIMM use the standard data pins of a DRAM SIMM for data (with the upper 16-bits shorted to the lower 16-bits since the SIMMs are 16-bits wide rather than 32-bits wide). Power signals are the same as a DRAM SIMMThe address pins for the P2K SIMMs are taken from all the other signals on the DRAM SIMM. What Apple has done in a Macintosh is anyones guess (I spose I could check out the hardware reference manual) but there is no way that one of these would be compatible with a P2K since the P2K needs to have a second FLASH bank for the preset memory.And you couldn't really have an 'adapter' to "modern storage" because the interface is random parallel access at about 130ns which is way too short to convert the address signals to an access cycle for something else. You could have RAM on a device and dump an image from some other storage to that but having enough RAM is prohibitive even using PSRAM....I hadn't realised that there was still interest in a P2K FLASH SIMM. I have a design (that needs the PCB layout completed - about half way through) that would allow SIMM images to be downloaded via USB, play live sound via USB and simultaneously operate as up to 4 SIMMs (128MB) at once. Shouldn't take too long to finish off if there's a market. I would guess a cost of $200-$250 for them depending on how many I make at a time.Also have to "read" the contents of existing ROMs to be able to use them but I have a finished design for that which just needs to be made.
From: "Bruno brunorc@... [p2k]" <p2k@yahoogroups.com>
To: xl7 <xl7@yahoogroups.com>; p2k <;p2k@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 8 March 2015, 18:42
Subject: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
No USB, but still... anyone more tech-savvy can say something about it (apart from the fact that we would need 32MB ROMs):
http://www.downtowndougbrown.com/programmable-mac-rom-simms/
Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-14 by George G
Yes corect Bruno ;)Anyway you will sold over 100s for sure, a lot of interest on this!Thanks
Sent from my iPhone�BrunoIf I recall correctly, George would need only three ROMs, since they were supposed to be able to act as one, two or four ROMs at once, thus they are able to provide a complete soundbase for a CS.I have two P2ks, two CSes and one wife, so I think I would go for 2-4 ROMs and I would LOVE to see a community repository of ROM images, khem khem.2015-03-14 11:06 GMT+01:00 George G pluto_ro@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:
Yes man, I have 3 command stations I will buy 12 !!!So do it pleaseThanks
Sent from my iPhone�The pin connections from the P2K SIMM use the standard data pins of a DRAM SIMM for data (with the upper 16-bits shorted to the lower 16-bits since the SIMMs are 16-bits wide rather than 32-bits wide). Power signals are the same as a DRAM SIMMThe address pins for the P2K SIMMs are taken from all the other signals on the DRAM SIMM. What Apple has done in a Macintosh is anyones guess (I spose I could check out the hardware reference manual) but there is no way that one of these would be compatible with a P2K since the P2K needs to have a second FLASH bank for the preset memory.And you couldn't really have an 'adapter' to "modern storage" because the interface is random parallel access at about 130ns which is way too short to convert the address signals to an access cycle for something else. You could have RAM on a device and dump an image from some other storage to that but having enough RAM is prohibitive even using PSRAM....I hadn't realised that there was still interest in a P2K FLASH SIMM. I have a design (that needs the PCB layout completed - about half way through) that would allow SIMM images to be downloaded via USB, play live sound via USB and simultaneously operate as up to 4 SIMMs (128MB) at once. Shouldn't take too long to finish off if there's a market. I would guess a cost of $200-$250 for them depending on how many I make at a time.�Also have to "read" the contents of existing ROMs to be able to use them but I have a finished design for that which just needs to be made.
From: "Bruno brunorc@... [p2k]" <p2k@yahoogroups.com>
To: xl7 <xl7@yahoogroups.com>; p2k <p2k@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 8 March 2015, 18:42
Subject: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
�No USB, but still... anyone more tech-savvy can say something about it (apart from the fact that we would need 32MB ROMs):
http://www.downtowndougbrown.com/programmable-mac-rom-simms/
Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-15 by Jon K. Carroll
I’m pretty sure that the copyright for the ROMs won’t run out for another 80 years, at least in the states. One of my other concerns is how the P2k engine will react to dynamically changing samples. You’re also likely to find that the P2k software can only address so much memory... (it is memory, not storage. Hence why it can be used in the RAM slots of an e5k or higher sampler...) Many of us would be happy with a programmable flash ROM that we can stick an SD card into that just copies the contents to faster flash or something, I personally am not concerned about rewriting it every two seconds over USB or streaming audio through USB.�Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 3:29 PMSubject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?��I was under the impression that this project would be for people to create their own banks, and to store them on a new ROM design as opposed to copying commercial ROMs. Despite the fact that the original ROMs are no longer being manufactured and sold (except for already existing ROMs in a re-sale market), I worry about possible legal issues. (I am not a legal expert, though.)
�
�Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-16 by smeisburger@...
Am hugely interested in this, whichever way it can be done. Would be curious about the maximum length of "instrument" samples. Ability to load one's own sounds is a major upgrade, there is certainly a market. Community repository of ROM images is a great idea too. Long ago I contributed EPROM images for the SCI DrumTraks to this archive: EPROM Images.
Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-16 by Jon K. Carroll
it wouldn’t be any harder to prosecute than any other software piracy case... if they were still actuiively selling the ROMs, or Proteus VX or EmulatorX, maybe they would.�Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 12:15 AMSubject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?��
Just so its clear...�There will be a requirement to reset the module after reprogramming except for live sounds where the module thinks its just looping and the SIMM is providing updated data based on live input. For live sounds there is a practical limit on the number of sounds that could be made live siulataneously (like four stereo samples or something).�Copyright is an issue if you want to replicate E-MU's ROMs. They probably wouldn't care. too hard to prosecute.�In the end it would be good to have a library of sounds and you construct a ROM image from it. In particular I would like to have a 128MB grand piano with four layers (one in each of the SIMM image areas).���From: "'Jon K. Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 16 March 2015, 9:19
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?��I’m pretty sure that the copyright for the ROMs won’t run out for another 80 years, at least in the states. One of my other concerns is how the P2k engine will react to dynamically changing samples. You’re also likely to find that the P2k software can only address so much memory... (it is memory, not storage. Hence why it can be used in the RAM slots of an e5k or higher sampler...) Many of us would be happy with a programmable flash ROM that we can stick an SD card into that just copies the contents to faster flash or something, I personally am not concerned about rewriting it every two seconds over USB or streaming audio through USB.�Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 3:29 PMSubject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?��I was under the impression that this project would be for people to create their own banks, and to store them on a new ROM design as opposed to copying commercial ROMs. Despite the fact that the original ROMs are no longer being manufactured and sold (except for already existing ROMs in a re-sale market), I worry about possible legal issues. (I am not a legal expert, though.)
�
�Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-16 by Matt
They arent. All this stuff is end of life. It's not even on their website anymore.
On Mar 16, 2015 12:17 AM, "'Jon K. Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
it wouldn’t be any harder to prosecute than any other software piracy case... if they were still actuiively selling the ROMs, or Proteus VX or EmulatorX, maybe they would.Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 12:15 AMSubject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
Just so its clear...There will be a requirement to reset the module after reprogramming except for live sounds where the module thinks its just looping and the SIMM is providing updated data based on live input. For live sounds there is a practical limit on the number of sounds that could be made live siulataneously (like four stereo samples or something).Copyright is an issue if you want to replicate E-MU's ROMs. They probably wouldn't care. too hard to prosecute.In the end it would be good to have a library of sounds and you construct a ROM image from it. In particular I would like to have a 128MB grand piano with four layers (one in each of the SIMM image areas).From: "'Jon K. Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 16 March 2015, 9:19
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?I’m pretty sure that the copyright for the ROMs won’t run out for another 80 years, at least in the states. One of my other concerns is how the P2k engine will react to dynamically changing samples. You’re also likely to find that the P2k software can only address so much memory... (it is memory, not storage. Hence why it can be used in the RAM slots of an e5k or higher sampler...) Many of us would be happy with a programmable flash ROM that we can stick an SD card into that just copies the contents to faster flash or something, I personally am not concerned about rewriting it every two seconds over USB or streaming audio through USB.Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 3:29 PMSubject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?I was under the impression that this project would be for people to create their own banks, and to store them on a new ROM design as opposed to copying commercial ROMs. Despite the fact that the original ROMs are no longer being manufactured and sold (except for already existing ROMs in a re-sale market), I worry about possible legal issues. (I am not a legal expert, though.)
Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-16 by Matt
"Abandonware" on @Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware
On Mar 16, 2015 1:23 PM, "Matt"; <somatt@...> wrote:They arent. All this stuff is end of life. It's not even on their website anymore.
On Mar 16, 2015 12:17 AM, "'Jon K. Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
it wouldn’t be any harder to prosecute than any other software piracy case... if they were still actuiively selling the ROMs, or Proteus VX or EmulatorX, maybe they would.Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 12:15 AMSubject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
Just so its clear...There will be a requirement to reset the module after reprogramming except for live sounds where the module thinks its just looping and the SIMM is providing updated data based on live input. For live sounds there is a practical limit on the number of sounds that could be made live siulataneously (like four stereo samples or something).Copyright is an issue if you want to replicate E-MU's ROMs. They probably wouldn't care. too hard to prosecute.In the end it would be good to have a library of sounds and you construct a ROM image from it. In particular I would like to have a 128MB grand piano with four layers (one in each of the SIMM image areas).From: "'Jon K. Carroll' joncarroll@infinite-elements.com [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 16 March 2015, 9:19
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?I’m pretty sure that the copyright for the ROMs won’t run out for another 80 years, at least in the states. One of my other concerns is how the P2k engine will react to dynamically changing samples. You’re also likely to find that the P2k software can only address so much memory... (it is memory, not storage. Hence why it can be used in the RAM slots of an e5k or higher sampler...) Many of us would be happy with a programmable flash ROM that we can stick an SD card into that just copies the contents to faster flash or something, I personally am not concerned about rewriting it every two seconds over USB or streaming audio through USB.Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2015 3:29 PMSubject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?I was under the impression that this project would be for people to create their own banks, and to store them on a new ROM design as opposed to copying commercial ROMs. Despite the fact that the original ROMs are no longer being manufactured and sold (except for already existing ROMs in a re-sale market), I worry about possible legal issues. (I am not a legal expert, though.)
Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-16 by Jon K. Carroll
They are still selling products that make sue of the same sample set.�Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 1:24 PMSubject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?��
"Abandonware" on @Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware
On Mar 16, 2015 1:23 PM, "Matt" <somatt@...> wrote:
They arent. All this stuff is end of life. It's not even on their website anymore.
On Mar 16, 2015 12:17 AM, "'Jon K. Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
�
it wouldn’t be any harder to prosecute than any other software piracy case... if they were still actuiively selling the ROMs, or Proteus VX or EmulatorX, maybe they would.Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-16 by Matt
Not for these devices, & regardless it is still legal to have backup copies of things you have legally purchased. A repository of the ROM would be a backup copy. If you're worried about copyright then don't download any roms you don't already own. Let's get off the copyright debate and back to the discussion about the device please.
On Mar 16, 2015 1:37 PM, "'Jon K. Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
They are still selling products that make sue of the same sample set.Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 1:24 PMSubject: Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
"Abandonware" on @Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware
On Mar 16, 2015 1:23 PM, "Matt" <somatt@...> wrote:
They arent. All this stuff is end of life. It's not even on their website anymore.
On Mar 16, 2015 12:17 AM, "'Jon K. Carroll' joncarroll@infinite-elements.com [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
it wouldn’t be any harder to prosecute than any other software piracy case... if they were still actuiively selling the ROMs, or Proteus VX or EmulatorX, maybe they would.Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-20 by lanrosta@...
I will buy 2 kits for sure, possibly 3. Please make this happen soon. I am not concerned with USB connectivity or audio streaming either. I just want a way to import my own sample content into the command station. I can't find a Flash SIMM anywhere, and I am just waiting to be able to use my own samples on my command station. I have an Ultra sampler to author the ROM, but it's impossible to find a Flash SIMM so far. If someone on here has one for sale, or has an alternative source for these chips, please let me know.Re: [xl7] Re: [p2k] Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-20 by lanrosta@...
Yes. Yes, I do. Just bought one. Thank you for the source. ;-)Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-22 by smw-mail@...
Thanks for the link (abandonware). I had heard of orphaned software years ago at an academic conference. This article seems to do a nice job of describing the issue.
Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-23 by Brian Grassfield
Hello, as for the ported presets for Dimension Pro in Cakewalk Sonar, it's a subset of the original. I own the original full E-MU sample library for Proteus VX and Emulator X3, and these libraries far more detailed than DiPro copies. And they sounds different because DiPro haven't got a Z-plane filter license.However a good fun to translate ebx files to wav and make some cool keygroup patch in my MPC5K. :)From:"smw-mail@... [xl7]"�
Date:H, márc. 23, 2015 at 2:13
Subject:[xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?Thanks for the lead. As a long-time Cakewalk user, I knew there was some company that had ported the E-Mu P2K Samples/Presets for use with Cakewalk software. (I prefer to use the E-Mu hardware.)
SteveRe: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-23 by Matt
If everyone just promises to not violate copyright then it would be on the individual to keep that promise and not the group.
On Mar 22, 2015 2:47 PM, "smw-mail@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I brought up the copyright issue because I would hate to see this forum closed down by some misguided (in my opinion) collaboration between private industry and governmental agencies just because they can. If the plan is to collaborate to develop a ROM for housing personal samples, or samples that one has a right to make archival copies--or even to make compilations selected from ROMS one owns*, or compilations from sample CDS, softsynths, etc. etc., I don't think there's an issue.
(*or even if you have the free Proteus VX and those samples/presets and want to put them into a ROM for E-Mu hardware, etc. etc.)
With all due respect--which you know I have--I don't think the copyright issue is out of place here.
Steve
Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-28 by smw-mail@...
I feel insulted that you called the topic I raised irrelevant. Unless I am mistaken (it happens), someone mentioned the idea of creating banks of ROM images of E-Mu Sound ROMS in connection with the creation of a new way/new technology for the Command Stations/P2Ks, etc. In my book, that makes discussion of possible copyright issues relevant.
You may feel that no one will shut down the user group if we were to start hosting such a bank of ROM images or if "it appears that" some members seem to be creating new technology for the purpose of cloning E-Mu ROMs, since it is orphaned technology as defined by copyright law, its perfectly OK to do this.
However, the discussion of these issue should not be called irrelevant.
If it is not relevant to you personally, that is 100% fine with me; read what people post and either make use of it, or let it go. But don't insult people who raise legitimate issues.
Just my opinion.
Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-28 by George G
First of all my post was not intented to insult anyone!Second you can't change the way everybody will think about this copyright thing, this its everyone choice what is doing at home... You can't control people to download movies from piratebay even if its illegal...My post was strictly about the technical side where this project is just an utopy in this moment, so again I call for organization and for a way we can move forward!�Lets talk about this, can we?Is this flash rom fesible considering we are not a company with a technical history and experience behind?Is there anyone can make a technical plan? What we need to do to go firward, I am just a musician with a very basic knowledge about technical side so I can help to nuch but I can fund this and I am sure I will not be the only one...Waiting real answers about real the problems guysThanksGeorge�I feel insulted that you called the topic I raised irrelevant.� Unless I am mistaken (it happens), someone mentioned the idea of creating banks of ROM images of E-Mu Sound ROMS in connection with the creation of a new way/new technology for the Command Stations/P2Ks, etc. In my book, that makes discussion of possible copyright issues relevant.
You may feel that no one will shut down the user group if we were to start hosting such a bank of ROM images or if "it appears that" some members seem to be creating new technology for the purpose of cloning E-Mu ROMs, since it is orphaned technology as defined by copyright law, its perfectly OK to do this.
However, the discussion of these issue should not be called irrelevant.
If it is not relevant to you personally, that is 100% fine with me; read what people post and either make use of it, or let it go. But don't insult people who raise legitimate issues.
Just my opinion.
�Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs? [1 Attachment]
2015-03-29 by John Doe
I would love to install writable ROMs of Techno synth construction and Beat Garden in my Ensoniq Halo!�I gave up hope when I saw people selling the original ROMs for $250 each.�That's just crazy when you consider that the cakewalk VST's for at least five sound modules are only $100.��Not sure why you don't read the posts properly.I have attached a screen image of the state of the board layout. It is a 6 layer board with one layer being a ground plane and I haven't yet needed to use the third mid layer. If I don't use it it will become a power plane. The thin green lines are connections yet to be routed. As you can see (if the attachment comes through) most of the signals are routed but the ones that are left are harder (ie the routing becomes harder as the easy links are all taken).It will be completed when I find time to do the routing. Its not especially hard, just time consuming (and I have a thing for neatness...)After that I will need to get some made and write some software to program them and program the logic devices. There are two logic devices. One is for providing 5V buffering of input signals and address decoding, the other is for providing a live waveform (ie updated sound as the note is played. The micro on the board can pump the live sound in either from the USB interface or from some internal logic. Its not an especially powerful micro so don't expect too much along this front)It is far easier to simply copy existing wave ROMs than produce unique ROMs from samples because the format of the ROMs still needs to be decoded. Hopefully that won't be hard. Then some software (PC?) needs to be written to download the ROM images and create your own.The board has two FLASH chips and two 16-bit buffers. It would be possible to sell a cut down version with only one logic device, one buffer and one flash chip (which would either be 96MB of ROM in four slots, or 224MB of ROM which you would need to select the ones that are active (up to 128MB). The cut down version would have no live sound capabilities. And no micro SD card inteface.The reason that the design is like this is because the KORG EXB (for triton series) has a similar format but is 32-bits wide and I would like to use the same hardware in my triton rack. However providing for this capability makes the design time longer.so ....
From: "George G pluto_ro@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2015, 8:07
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
�First of all my post was not intented to insult anyone!Second you can't change the way everybody will think about this copyright thing, this its everyone choice what is doing at home... You can't control people to download movies from piratebay even if its illegal...My post was strictly about the technical side where this project is just an utopy in this moment, so again I call for organization and for a way we can move forward!�Lets talk about this, can we?Is this flash rom fesible considering we are not a company with a technical history and experience behind?Is there anyone can make a technical plan? What we need to do to go firward, I am just a musician with a very basic knowledge about technical side so I can help to nuch but I can fund this and I am sure I will not be the only one...Waiting real answers about real the problems guysThanksGeorgeI feel insulted that you called the topic I raised irrelevant.� Unless I am mistaken (it happens), someone mentioned the idea of creating banks of ROM images of E-Mu Sound ROMS in connection with the creation of a new way/new technology for the Command Stations/P2Ks, etc. In my book, that makes discussion of possible copyright issues relevant.
You may feel that no one will shut down the user group if we were to start hosting such a bank of ROM images or if "it appears that" some members seem to be creating new technology for the purpose of cloning E-Mu ROMs, since it is orphaned technology as defined by copyright law, its perfectly OK to do this.
However, the discussion of these issue should not be called irrelevant.
If it is not relevant to you personally, that is 100% fine with me; read what people post and either make use of it, or let it go. But don't insult people who raise legitimate issues.
Just my opinion.
�Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-30 by D F Tweedie
Not crazy ... just supply and demand. And it goes to show the timeless value of good hardware technology.How much are Stradavari going for these days?DF�CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.
From: "John Doe membraneesoterica@... [xl7]"
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
�I would love to install writable ROMs of Techno synth construction and Beat Garden in my Ensoniq Halo!�I gave up hope when I saw people selling the original ROMs for $250 each.�That's just crazy when you consider that the cakewalk VST's for at least five sound modules are only $100.��Not sure why you don't read the posts properly.I have attached a screen image of the state of the board layout. It is a 6 layer board with one layer being a ground plane and I haven't yet needed to use the third mid layer. If I don't use it it will become a power plane. The thin green lines are connections yet to be routed. As you can see (if the attachment comes through) most of the signals are routed but the ones that are left are harder (ie the routing becomes harder as the easy links are all taken).It will be completed when I find time to do the routing. Its not especially hard, just time consuming (and I have a thing for neatness...)After that I will need to get some made and write some software to program them and program the logic devices. There are two logic devices. One is for providing 5V buffering of input signals and address decoding, the other is for providing a live waveform (ie updated sound as the note is played. The micro on the board can pump the live sound in either from the USB interface or from some internal logic. Its not an especially powerful micro so don't expect too much along this front)It is far easier to simply copy existing wave ROMs than produce unique ROMs from samples because the format of the ROMs still needs to be decoded. Hopefully that won't be hard. Then some software (PC?) needs to be written to download the ROM images and create your own.The board has two FLASH chips and two 16-bit buffers. It would be possible to sell a cut down version with only one logic device, one buffer and one flash chip (which would either be 96MB of ROM in four slots, or 224MB of ROM which you would need to select the ones that are active (up to 128MB). The cut down version would have no live sound capabilities. And no micro SD card inteface.The reason that the design is like this is because the KORG EXB (for triton series) has a similar format but is 32-bits wide and I would like to use the same hardware in my triton rack. However providing for this capability makes the design time longer.so ....
From: "George G pluto_ro@... [xl7]" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: "xl7@yahoogroups.com" <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2015, 8:07
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
�First of all my post was not intented to insult anyone!Second you can't change the way everybody will think about this copyright thing, this its everyone choice what is doing at home... You can't control people to download movies from piratebay even if its illegal...My post was strictly about the technical side where this project is just an utopy in this moment, so again I call for organization and for a way we can move forward!�Lets talk about this, can we?Is this flash rom fesible considering we are not a company with a technical history and experience behind?Is there anyone can make a technical plan? What we need to do to go firward, I am just a musician with a very basic knowledge about technical side so I can help to nuch but I can fund this and I am sure I will not be the only one...Waiting real answers about real the problems guysThanksGeorge�I feel insulted that you called the topic I raised irrelevant.� Unless I am mistaken (it happens), someone mentioned the idea of creating banks of ROM images of E-Mu Sound ROMS in connection with the creation of a new way/new technology for the Command Stations/P2Ks, etc. In my book, that makes discussion of possible copyright issues relevant.
You may feel that no one will shut down the user group if we were to start hosting such a bank of ROM images or if "it appears that" some members seem to be creating new technology for the purpose of cloning E-Mu ROMs, since it is orphaned technology as defined by copyright law, its perfectly OK to do this.
However, the discussion of these issue should not be called irrelevant.
If it is not relevant to you personally, that is 100% fine with me; read what people post and either make use of it, or let it go. But don't insult people who raise legitimate issues.
Just my opinion.
�Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-30 by Bruno
Just my two cents:2015-03-30 3:16 GMT+02:00 D F Tweedie bienpegaito@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:Not crazy ... just supply and demand. And it goes to show the timeless value of good hardware technology.The supply is quite scarce here, and mostly due to the fact, that when those ROMs (and the instruments they were built into) showed up, they were rather overpriced - just look at their prices after few years, or even now. Thus market didn't respond well, and the development of a good hardware technology got thwarted. The truth is, that Phatt & Xtreme ROMs are cheap not because of their samples' quality, but because of their popularity.Crazy prices kept quoted may result in people not willing to sell their not-used anymore ROMs for less than certain unrealistic price. One day I managed to score a PK-6 with the new Composer, both Orchestrals and Vintage for 200 EUR. I would not pay more than 150EUR for a ROM, even for Vintage or Holy Grail, because it's the same craziness, which fuels the analog madness.However, I'm thinking of a small database (shared document?), where people could quote the prices they paid and they would be willing to pay for particular ROMs. The results could be surprising...How much are Stradavari going for these days?Who cares? They are not compatible with E-mu ROMs anyway ;-)Seriously though - while I appreciate your parable, you can't compare those. You could have easily scaled up the production line of ROMs: once you're done with designing a platform & the ROM, you only have to make one-per-ROM effort to collect the samples and make the presets (and some of users can confirm, that some samples and the presets are duplicated in different ROMs), and then you can really go and multiply. You can't do the same with hand-made violins, since the time & effort are linear here.Having said this, I admit it might have been that E-mu never actually reached the level of assumed profitability, so scaling up could not happen.But there's also another difference: most Stradivari were 300 years old, when E-mu started to produce P2K. They will keep playing for years, if well maintained. Our E-mu boxes won't, they already suffer from jumping dials, broken PSUs and so on. On the other hand, violin is a just a wooden box with a stick and four strings; E-mu instruments are complex mixtures of hardware and software. Most of us, apart from using them in the creative process of making music, treat them like the works of art, and - even though they are deemed to be ephemeral - they certainly deserve it, but let's not get too far ;-)BrunoRe: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-30 by Jon K. Carroll
the ‘analog� madness’? you mean the prices� on working vintage analogs? yes, it is the same kind of thing. There are a limited number of them, there were only X number made, and the supply that is available is what we have.�a better parable, if you prefer, is that an E-MU Emulator II is going UP in price. For the same reasons: electronics fail, and the cheaper the components used in them, the more likely they are to fail. Unlike the 80s E-Mu samplers, the Command Stations and Proteus 2000 series weren't made in the U.S. from Japanese components- they were made in Singapore from Chinese and Singapore(an?) components,� and then those sub-assemblies were shipped to the US and assembled here. voilà! Made in the USA. (Several other ‘made in the USA’ electronic instrument manufacturers do the same kind of thing, as well as at least one of the ‘made in EU ones)�You want inexpensive items? you end up with cheap components. And you cross your fingers and hope that the vendor doing your sub-assemblies didn’t cheap out on your encoders to make a better profit.���;�
Just my two cents:
�2015-03-30 3:16 GMT+02:00 D F Tweedie bienpegaito@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:
Not crazy ... just supply and demand. And it goes to show the timeless value of good hardware technology.�The supply is quite scarce here, and mostly due to the fact, that when those ROMs (and the instruments they were built into) showed up, they were rather overpriced - just look at their prices after few years, or even now. Thus market didn't respond well, and the development of a good hardware technology got thwarted. The truth is, that Phatt & Xtreme ROMs are cheap not because of their samples' quality, but because of their popularity.Crazy prices kept quoted may result in people not willing to sell their not-used anymore ROMs for less than certain unrealistic price. One day I managed to score a PK-6 with the new Composer, both Orchestrals and Vintage for 200 EUR. I would not pay more than 150EUR for a ROM, even for Vintage or Holy Grail, because it's the same craziness, which fuels the analog madness.However, I'm thinking of a small database (shared document?), where people could quote the prices they paid and they would be willing to pay for particular ROMs. The results could be surprising...�How much are Stradavari going for these days?�Who cares? They are not compatible with E-mu ROMs anyway ;-)Seriously though - while I appreciate your parable, you can't compare those. You could have easily scaled up the production line of ROMs: once you're done with designing a platform & the ROM, you only have to make one-per-ROM effort to collect the samples and make the presets (and some of users can confirm, that some samples and the presets are duplicated in different ROMs), and then you can really go and multiply. You can't do the same with hand-made violins, since the time & effort are linear here.Having said this, I admit it might have been that E-mu never actually reached the level of assumed profitability, so scaling up could not happen.But there's also another difference: most Stradivari were 300 years old, when E-mu started to produce P2K. They will keep playing for years, if well maintained. Our E-mu boxes won't, they already suffer from jumping dials, broken PSUs and so on. On the other hand, violin is a just a wooden box with a stick and four strings; E-mu instruments are complex mixtures of hardware and software. Most of us, apart from using them in the creative process of making music, treat them like the works of art, and - even though they are deemed to be ephemeral - they certainly deserve it, but let's not get too far ;-)�BrunoRe: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-30 by D F Tweedie
Very thorough, Bruno! :)Of course the Stradavari are an unfair comparison ... but the point is not.What ever the production economies of scale with Emu gear, the real 'business model' story is that it had a relatively small market and was plucked as low hanging fruit by Creative for it's DSP and Audio technology to feed a mass market. Creative then took what it wanted and abandoned the rest.Whether people hold on to ROMs they no longer really want or use because they want to get the the current crazy prices or not is just a reflection of the most basic economic truth: things are worth what people will pay for them.DF�CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.
From: "Bruno brunorc@... [xl7]"
To: xl7
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
�Just my two cents:2015-03-30 3:16 GMT+02:00 D F Tweedie bienpegaito@yahoo.com [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:Not crazy ... just supply and demand. And it goes to show the timeless value of good hardware technology.The supply is quite scarce here, and mostly due to the fact, that when those ROMs (and the instruments they were built into) showed up, they were rather overpriced - just look at their prices after few years, or even now. Thus market didn't respond well, and the development of a good hardware technology got thwarted. The truth is, that Phatt & Xtreme ROMs are cheap not because of their samples' quality, but because of their popularity.Crazy prices kept quoted may result in people not willing to sell their not-used anymore ROMs for less than certain unrealistic price. One day I managed to score a PK-6 with the new Composer, both Orchestrals and Vintage for 200 EUR. I would not pay more than 150EUR for a ROM, even for Vintage or Holy Grail, because it's the same craziness, which fuels the analog madness.However, I'm thinking of a small database (shared document?), where people could quote the prices they paid and they would be willing to pay for particular ROMs. The results could be surprising...�How much are Stradavari going for these days?Who cares? They are not compatible with E-mu ROMs anyway ;-)Seriously though - while I appreciate your parable, you can't compare those. You could have easily scaled up the production line of ROMs: once you're done with designing a platform & the ROM, you only have to make one-per-ROM effort to collect the samples and make the presets (and some of users can confirm, that some samples and the presets are duplicated in different ROMs), and then you can really go and multiply. You can't do the same with hand-made violins, since the time & effort are linear here.Having said this, I admit it might have been that E-mu never actually reached the level of assumed profitability, so scaling up could not happen.But there's also another difference: most Stradivari were 300 years old, when E-mu started to produce P2K. They will keep playing for years, if well maintained. Our E-mu boxes won't, they already suffer from jumping dials, broken PSUs and so on. On the other hand, violin is a just a wooden box with a stick and four strings; E-mu instruments are complex mixtures of hardware and software. Most of us, apart from using them in the creative process of making music, treat them like the works of art, and - even though they are deemed to be ephemeral - they certainly deserve it, but let's not get too far ;-)BrunoEmulator II Prices
2015-03-30 by D F Tweedie
Great points, Jon ... but how about this?What might it cost in parts and labor to have a competent tech replace the capacitors and other parts subject to aging in a 2K/ Command Station?And how to you go about finding that tech?DF�CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.
From: "'Jon K. Carroll' joncarroll@... [xl7]" <;xl7@yahoogroups.com>
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
�the ‘analog� madness’? you mean the prices� on working vintage analogs? yes, it is the same kind of thing. There are a limited number of them, there were only X number made, and the supply that is available is what we have.�a better parable, if you prefer, is that an E-MU Emulator II is going UP in price. For the same reasons: electronics fail, and the cheaper the components used in them, the more likely they are to fail. Unlike the 80s E-Mu samplers, the Command Stations and Proteus 2000 series weren't made in the U.S. from Japanese components- they were made in Singapore from Chinese and Singapore(an?) components,� and then those sub-assemblies were shipped to the US and assembled here. voilà! Made in the USA. (Several other ‘made in the USA’ electronic instrument manufacturers do the same kind of thing, as well as at least one of the ‘made in EU ones)�;You want inexpensive items? you end up with cheap components. And you cross your fingers and hope that the vendor doing your sub-assemblies didn’t cheap out on your encoders to make a better profit.��Just my two cents:
�2015-03-30 3:16 GMT+02:00 D F Tweedie bienpegaito@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:
Not crazy ... just supply and demand. And it goes to show the timeless value of good hardware technology.�The supply is quite scarce here, and mostly due to the fact, that when those ROMs (and the instruments they were built into) showed up, they were rather overpriced - just look at their prices after few years, or even now. Thus market didn't respond well, and the development of a good hardware technology got thwarted. The truth is, that Phatt & Xtreme ROMs are cheap not because of their samples' quality, but because of their popularity.Crazy prices kept quoted may result in people not willing to sell their not-used anymore ROMs for less than certain unrealistic price. One day I managed to score a PK-6 with the new Composer, both Orchestrals and Vintage for 200 EUR. I would not pay more than 150EUR for a ROM, even for Vintage or Holy Grail, because it's the same craziness, which fuels the analog madness.However, I'm thinking of a small database (shared document?), where people could quote the prices they paid and they would be willing to pay for particular ROMs. The results could be surprising...How much are Stradavari going for these days?�Who cares? They are not compatible with E-mu ROMs anyway ;-)Seriously though - while I appreciate your parable, you can't compare those. You could have easily scaled up the production line of ROMs: once you're done with designing a platform & the ROM, you only have to make one-per-ROM effort to collect the samples and make the presets (and some of users can confirm, that some samples and the presets are duplicated in different ROMs), and then you can really go and multiply. You can't do the same with hand-made violins, since the time & effort are linear here.Having said this, I admit it might have been that E-mu never actually reached the level of assumed profitability, so scaling up could not happen.But there's also another difference: most Stradivari were 300 years old, when E-mu started to produce P2K. They will keep playing for years, if well maintained. Our E-mu boxes won't, they already suffer from jumping dials, broken PSUs and so on. On the other hand, violin is a just a wooden box with a stick and four strings; E-mu instruments are complex mixtures of hardware and software. Most of us, apart from using them in the creative process of making music, treat them like the works of art, and - even though they are deemed to be ephemeral - they certainly deserve it, but let's not get too far ;-)�BrunoRe: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-30 by Luc-Eric Rousseau
On that subject, has anyone decided to instead build a Emulator X3 Windows PC with all sample packs instead of hunting for all of those ROM?I've had a colleague convince me that the audio quality is superior with it due to the advanced in technology.It's dampened my enthusiasm significantly with regards to my E-MU nostalgia, recently jolted by this 1h TV special on EMU http://youtu.be/pDS2sDg0eP0On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:51 AM, D F Tweedie bienpegaito@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Very thorough, Bruno! :)Of course the Stradavari are an unfair comparison ... but the point is not.What ever the production economies of scale with Emu gear, the real 'business model' story is that it had a relatively small market and was plucked as low hanging fruit by Creative for it's DSP and Audio technology to feed a mass market. Creative then took what it wanted and abandoned the rest.Whether people hold on to ROMs they no longer really want or use because they want to get the the current crazy prices or not is just a reflection of the most basic economic truth: things are worth what people will pay for them.DFCONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
2015-03-30 by D F Tweedie
I managed to pick up a copy of Emulator 3 When Creative was discontinuing it. It is a very capable piece of software ... but with a good collection of ROMs I must say my preference is to tweak those hardware knobs.Of course, Emulator X3 is true sampling software, regarded by many as the best ever made and not simply a sample player like Kontakt.As far as audio quality goes, I imagine your friend is saying that with a PC and current DACs, you can get a cleaner/ purer sound than through those in the modules or Emulators.Probably true ... but then people are going to add all those distortion and saturation effects to get closer to that 'analog sound.'DF
�CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.
From: "Luc-Eric Rousseau lucericml@... [xl7]"
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [xl7] Re: Programmable ROMs?
�On that subject, has anyone decided to instead build a Emulator X3 Windows PC with all sample packs instead of hunting for all of those ROM?I've had a colleague convince me that the audio quality is superior with it due to the advanced in technology. �It's dampened my enthusiasm significantly with regards to my E-MU nostalgia, recently jolted by this 1h TV special on EMU�http://youtu.be/pDS2sDg0eP0On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:51 AM, D F Tweedie bienpegaito@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:�Very thorough, Bruno! :)Of course the Stradavari are an unfair comparison ... but the point is not.What ever the production economies of scale with Emu gear, the real 'business model' story is that it had a relatively small market and was plucked as low hanging fruit by Creative for it's DSP and Audio technology to feed a mass market. Creative then took what it wanted and abandoned the rest.Whether people hold on to ROMs they no longer really want or use because they want to get the the current crazy prices or not is just a reflection of the most basic economic truth: things are worth what people will pay for them.DF�CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.Re: [xl7] Emulator II Prices
2015-04-25 by lanrosta@...
It's true. Most any electronics tech should be able to diagnose the problem caps/psu issues (it may be a failing psu and not caps after all). And it's fine to use a local tech that doesn't 'specialize' in music equipment, as those can sometimes be overpriced, and some are even shady enough to run off with the gear. Most local electronics repair shops can do the work. They are going to want anywhere from $80 to $300 to do the work. So, as you can see, you could buy another unit used for that much.
With capacitors, all you need to do is identify the ones that are leaking or bulging (usually at the top or bottom of the cap) and replace those first with like parts (look at each one to find it's voltage and its capacitance, then get the parts from digikey, mouser, or local supplier, etc). Retest and repeat on other suspecting caps until it is either fixed, or all the caps are replaced (and for accuracy, tested after replacing each one with a digital volt meter DVM) if necessary. Yout toal cost for caps will range from $5 to maybe $30.
In addition to the caps, you will also need a solder remover (ebay has those soldering irons with the vacuum tube clicker on it for like $20. Way better than using both an iron and an individual plastic-tip solder sucker tube that requires both hands) This requires only one hand and does a nice fast removal of the solder. This makes removing the caps from the main board really, really simple. Change the tip and its a normal soldering iron to put in the new caps.
Get some thin gauge solder, and maybe a magnifying glass to read the cap labels and their polarity (+/-) so you can find suitable replacement caps and insert the new cap pins in the same polarity as the originals were in. That's about $30- $50 total (most of which are tool costs, which you get to keep and use for other solder/removal and electronics projects) and maybe 2-4 hours time.
A Digital Volt Meter (DVM) about $20 to $30 more will also help you test the circuit before and after the cap circuit. This takes patience and a steady hand to test the cap leads while the machine is apart, but plugged in and turned on. It's delicate work because you could shock yourself or damage the board with a sever voltage short. But neither are likely to happen often or cause too much harm. depends though. Which brings me to this...
Disclaimer and Warning - Capacitors CAN and DO hold a charge even after the unit has been turned off and even after several minutes. BE ABSOLUTELY CAREFUL and DO NOT TOUCH or remove any caps unless the unit has been unplugged for at least an 30 minutes to an hour first. Also, You take full responsibility for your own handy work. I am NOT liable for any mistake, damage, injury, bobloblaw you cause to yourself or machine).
Or, you could just buy another machine used on ebay or wherever. Then do the work on the bad caps board. That way if you screw it up, you still have a working one. Or, you could buy a replacement board. ebay has them occassionally, but not often. Again, usually best to find another unit secondhand and keep the current one to explore the internals without fear.