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Thread

Rechannelizing always behaves like "on record"?

2014-08-23 by Reuben Kinsella

Hi all - thanks for adding me to the group

Recently got hold of a Command Station, hoping to use it as the main sequencer in a live hardware based rig. So far its been really good, and a huge step up from the Electribe I was using before, but having some major issue integrating with the rest of my gear - basically it doesn't seem to be behaving logically at all, so I can only guess I'm missing a setting somewhere. Hoping someone can help out, or at least tell me to give up, as I've been trying to solve this for days now...

Basically, all I want to do is turn "Rechanellize Input" off, but despite the setting, it seems to behave as if its set to "on record": To try phrase it briefly, if I have data coming into the midi-in of the CS on multiple channels, is there any way not to record all this data into the currently selected track? Logically, it should just direct the data to the appropriatete tracks based on the channel settings, but I'm beginning to feel that I'll have to settle for only the channel that the currently selected track is set to?

In more detail:

We have 2 sequencers (one of which is the CS) running into a patchbay to control some shared sound modules, and some of these shared modules are running internal sequencers too. As a small section of the problem, I have a drum machine acting as the master clock, as well as doing some percussion on its internal sequencer (its on e.g channel 15). While its playing I would like to record a bassline into my CS. So I set the CS to track 12 which is set to channel 12 (ext) and play my bassline off a sampler receiving on channel 12. All good so far - I can play the bassline either from the pads, or from my external keyboard set to channel 12 (remember this is all going through a patchbay).

As soon as I hit record though, the percussion data (channel 15) ends up being recorded into Track 12 AS CHANNEL 12 data and in fact I can't even play the bassline anymore, because is keeps getting the "note-offs" from the drum machine too... This is what I imagine re-channelizing should do... the problem is that there doesn't seem to be a difference now between having re-channelize set to "off" or "on record". I want it OFF - ie only to accept channel 12 data on track 12, and discard the other stuff. I'd be fine too if it would even record multiple channels, but I want the channel 15 messages ending up in track 15, because thats assigned to channel 15, but it sounds like only one track at a time is possible.

If I try it with track 12 set to MultiA, which preserves the channel info, as track 12 is external, the drum machine starts to double trigger - I can't stop to explode the data either (with track 15 directed somewhere harmless), as I'm intending to be doing this all live, not having everything pre-recorded beforehand, and would like to tweak the pre-recorded stuff too, but basically can't do anything at the moment as hitting the record button just wants to record everything incoming to whatever track I've selected, regardless of its assigned channel or the rechannelize setting...

Sorry for the long first post, but any help would really be appreciated.

Re: [xl7] Re: Rechannelizing always behaves like "on record"?

2014-08-24 by Bruno

While we're at it: assuming I have "Rechannnelize input" set to "off", and I'm recording - if I transmit data on two channels, and each of them is assigned to a different track - will the data from each channel get recorded separately on those tracks? According to manual, "Automatic Channel Assignment", page 65 - it would, but would love to hear from someone "I tried it and it did (not) work".

Thanks,

Bruno

2014-08-23 21:32 GMT+02:00 smw-mail@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com>:

Does MIDI ENABLE apply to what you want to do? (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/xl7/conversations/messages/23662).

Re: Rechannelizing always behaves like "on record"?

2014-08-24 by smw-mail@...

Each time I try to figure out your set up, I am not sure I have it, so let me ask if I have it right:You have a Drum Machine, a Command Station, another sequencer, a sampler, and some other sound modules. When you say you have a patchbay, is that like a midi router? If so, does it have mapping and data filtering capabilities?

Basically you want the CS to do 4 things at the same time: (1) sync to the drum machine's midi clock, (2) play pre-recorded tracks on external gear, (3) record just a bass line, and (4) play the bass line on an external sampler. Is that it?

To me the simplest thing would be to use a midi router to only send the midi clock to the CS (plus an external keyboard, if you are using that to play parts as well as the CS's pads.

It seems to me that there is no reason to route the channel 15 data into the CS. If its coming from the drum machine, can that be set to only send out midi clock? If not, a router could filter it.

Also, did you check out the MIDI ENABLE parameter? See message 23662, which states:

Possibly an easier option:

In MIDI ENABLE, turn all channels (01B to 16B) to off

"MIDI Enable lets you turn each MIDI channel on and off independently
when in Multi mode. This feature is helpful when you have other devices
connected to the same MIDI line and do not want the XL-7 unit to respond
to the MIDI channels reserved for the other devices."

I think the MIDI IN Block Diagram really helps here.

When the MIDI ENABLE setting is off, the midi in is disconnected from the synth engine--which is what you want, if I understand you correctly.

Hope this helps.

Steve

I am not sure, but that might help. I don't remember if it just disconnects the synth engine from incoming midi data, or the sequencer as well.

Steve

Re: Rechannelizing always behaves like "on record"?

2014-08-25 by smw-mail@...

I just ran some tests that confirmed what I expected. Basically, I created a short 4 track thing in SONAR (on midi tracks 1 through 4) and played it into my P2500. I tried various combinations of settings within the P2500 (rechannelize, channel assign destination, and midi enable). I have not actively recorded tracks on the W-Mu sequencer in years, so it took a while to relearn what does what. So far as I can tell, the E-Mu sequencer (CS or P2500) will not filter out incoming data based on midi channel. I was successful, however, with my trusted parallel port motu midi express - an 8 x 8 midi router. In fact, it was relatively easy to only allow data from one midi channel to go into the P2500.

A few words about RECHANNELIZE INPUT. So far as I can tell, that function only control whether or not incoming midi data going to a single specific track ("To Track Dest.") gets converted to the midi channel that matches the track you are recording on. With this function set to "off" my 4 midi channels of data coming from SONAR were recorded onto Track 1 corresponding to midi channels 1 through 4. With the function set to "always" or "on record" all 4 channels of midi data were forced to C01A (corresponding with Track 1--the Dest. track.)

As for the MIDI ENABLE parameter, so far as I can tell, that won't help with filtering incoming midi data going to the sequencer. It does do the other thing.

Well, I hope this helps.

Steve

Re: Rechannelizing always behaves like "on record"?

2014-08-25 by smw-mail@...

PS: " Logically, it should just direct the data to the appropriate tracks based on the channel settings . . . .The tracks v. channels thing has been a stumbling point for many people. I am sure it too me a whole lot of experimenting way back when to wrap my head around it, too.

The E-Mu sequencer can only record one track at a time. After a multi-channel track has been recorded, I believe you can use the editor functions to put them onto separate tracks--(1) COMBINE SELECTED TRACKS TO CLIPBOARD and (2) EXPLODE CLIPBOARD TO TRACKS. (Can anyone who has used these functions confirm that?)

So, here's what you can do: you can record multi-channel midi data onto a single track and (a) keep the original channels in the sequence or (b) for all channels to match the track number selected for recording. You also have various editing functions and channel assignment parameters.

Steve

Re: Rechannelizing always behaves like "on record"?

2014-08-25 by Reuben Kinsella

>> Each time I try to figure out your set up, I am not sure I have it, so let me ask if I have it right...Basically you want the CS to do 4 things at the same time: (1) sync to the drum machine's midi clock, (2) play pre-recorded tracks on external gear, (3) record just a bass line, and (4) play the bass line on an external sampler. Is that it?


Thanks for the response! Yeah, you pretty much understand the set up, and also the way I eventually sort of solved it...

I've spent about the entire weekend and a few days before that trying every possible combination of settings and basically concluded that its not possible - in fact I'd probably report it as a bug in the software if there was anyone to report it to.

For posterity though (and hopefully to save someone the time)

- Rechannelize "off" doesn't seem to have any difference to "on record": When a track is set to a specific midi channel, incoming data on ANY channel gets rechannelized to the selected track's channel.
(Even when I have dummy data in the "extra" channels, and also even if those channels are disabled)

- The only way not to Rechannelize is to have the Track channel set to MultiA.

- Midi Enable/Disable doesn't work as it sounds like it should at first, depending on the defininition of "respond".  The internal synth engine doesn't respond, but the sequencer recording does respond. 


>>I think the MIDI IN Block Diagram really helps here.
It should help, but actually its WRONG, or maybe doesn't give the whole picture - what happens along the "Rechannelize Y/N" leg doesn't actually behave like that, which is why I battled with it for so long.

Using the Multichannel recording almost worked, but the problem is the "shared" modules　- I wouldn't so much mind the redundant data in my tracks, but the track itself needs to be "ext" so I get the double triggering... or I have to stop in order to explode to the corecct tracks.


So basically I gave up,　and as you say figured out how to do the midi routing with the patchbay/merger/router.  Makes things slightly less flexible in some ways though - for example have been nice to record the other guys sequencer and play it back simultaneously with some tweaks or a different voice.  Also means I have to take another peice of gear when playing out, rather than a small thru box, or running a daisy chain. 


(For what its worth, I'm using an old MOTU Timepeice AV - can find them super-cheap as most people regard them as redundant, but was quite impressed by the depth of the front panel editing options... I've actually set up a few different scenes in it now to allow things through sometimes too) 


Thanks for the input anyway (and to all the others that chimed in on the topic)

Oh, last thing to check.  Some places refer to having Rechannelize set to "never".  Mine on has "off".  Is this just someones poor recall, or is there any chance I'm not running the latest OS?  Mine says ver 2.00 1.00 2003 when booting.

And just for completeness, sounds like multi-TRACK recording might be possible in song mode.  Didn't explore this too far as Song mode wouldn't work for me in general, but could be worth looking into if anyone runs into similar issues.

Thanks again!

Re: Rechannelizing always behaves like "on record"?

2014-08-25 by smw-mail@...

Thanks for the detailed reply. I know exactly what you mean by trying out all possibilities to see if something can be done!!! And I agree what you say. I had some thoughts I will probably share later. I think the idea of recording and tweaking someone else's sequences on the fly sounds great!!! It sounds like it would be nice not to give that up. (I will think more about this.)I also picked up an MTP AV and a pair of micro expresses (4 in, 6 out) over the years -- all parallel port. Yes, they are old, and once I graduate to a newer computer they will be much less useful (no parallel ports!!!), but they are work horses and function well as stand-alone midi routers. Oh, yeah--the MTP AV seems to have been designed more for Mac Users, since a number of features are not available in the PC software. For that reason, I never really mastered programming it to its fullest potential--I just have two settings I use. Maybe I need to explore it some more.

Steve