Emu XL-7 & MP-7 User's Group

And another question is can CS transmit to midi out (B or A) already arpegiated notes ? I want to use CS arp patterns for sequence my Access Virus rack.

Yes, you can send arp notes out.
You cannot change the arp pattern via programmable knob (or midi 
controller).

On 9/21/2012 3:26 AM, nikitsanpsix wrote:
>
> And another question is can CS transmit to midi out (B or A) already 
> arpegiated notes ? I want to use CS arp patterns for sequence my 
> Access Virus rack.
>
> __._,_.__

Thanks alot for answer )
maybe you know how to change arp pattern on a fly?

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Greg Waltzer <egw@...> wrote:

>
> Yes, you can send arp notes out.
> You cannot change the arp pattern via programmable knob (or midi 
> controller).
> 
> On 9/21/2012 3:26 AM, nikitsanpsix wrote:
> >
> > And another question is can CS transmit to midi out (B or A) already 
> > arpegiated notes ? I want to use CS arp patterns for sequence my 
> > Access Virus rack.
> >
> > __._,_.__
>

The only way I can think of is to have several presets with the same 
sound, but different arp patterns.
Then you can switch between them.

On 9/25/2012 11:59 AM, nikitsanpsix wrote:
>
> Thanks alot for answer )
> maybe you know how to change arp pattern on a fly?
>
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com <mailto:xl7%40yahoogroups.com>, Greg 
> Waltzer <egw@...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, you can send arp notes out.
> > You cannot change the arp pattern via programmable knob (or midi
> > controller).
> >
> > On 9/21/2012 3:26 AM, nikitsanpsix wrote:
> > >
> > > And another question is can CS transmit to midi out (B or A) already
> > > arpegiated notes ? I want to use CS arp patterns for sequence my
> > > Access Virus rack.
>

2012/9/25 Greg Waltzer <egw@...>:
> The only way I can think of is to have several presets with the same
> sound, but different arp patterns.
> Then you can switch between them.
>
> On 9/25/2012 11:59 AM, nikitsanpsix wrote:
>>
>> Thanks alot for answer )
>> maybe you know how to change arp pattern on a fly?

A SysEx-savvy MIDI controller? Not sure how fast the response can be
and no idea if you have to retrigger the notes. Cannot test it before
this Sunday, but sounds like a nice (in terms of usefulness) task to
do...

<mode="old vinyl record with a blatant plug">
I used Behringer BCR-2000 to emit SysEx messages to control the volume
of my MP-7 with a broken volume pot.
</mode>

Cheers,

Bruno

As an experiment, I edited arp patterns on the fly with Prodatum software. The results were so great that I encouraged Jan Eidmann (who developed Prodatum) to do a standalone 32 channel live arp editor.  However, I seem to recall that in the discussion the issue of using up flash rom cycles arose. 

I do recall having a lot of fun doing on the fly editing with the Prodatum arp editor--changing end points, doing skips, etc. with a quick click of the mouse. But with the risk of premature flash rom burnt out (or would it be burn in?), I stopped.

So, it can be done with software, but I don't recommend it.

I am sure it would be possible to build an external device with a microprocessor to store arp patterns and edit them on the fly. Two summers ago, I hard coded a randomizing arp generator that sent midi data to my E-Mu. (I basically had an array with notes to be selected from.  On the back burner is an arp controller with several sliders to do live performance mods. I would encourage others to experiment with expanding their E-Mus with customized (and customizable) microprocessor controllers.

Steve

Oh.  I misread this when I first answered. I was thinking you wanted to edit an arp pattern on the fly. I realize now you just want to switch from one arp pattern to another arp pattern.

Obviously, you can make the change when you edit a preset.  And if you can do that, you can probably code up something using remote control sysex commands to simulate button presses and main encoder turns. You could then embed that sysex into a pattern. I don't think that this would really lend itself to live performance tweaking, though.

As Greg suggested, you can create multiple presets with different arp patterns or arp parameters. If this appeals to you, I recommend using the same prefix for each set of related arps.  For example, I have one set of arps with a prefix of 100, another with 101, etc.  This lets me dial up the arps in a "family" with the front panel navigator.

I am thinking it also >might< be possible to do a parameter edit via sysex to change the arp pattern. I will have to look that up, though.

Steve


--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "nikitsanpsix" <nikitsan@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks alot for answer )
> maybe you know how to change arp pattern on a fly?
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Greg Waltzer <egw@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes, you can send arp notes out.
> > You cannot change the arp pattern via programmable knob (or midi 
> > controller).
> > 
> > On 9/21/2012 3:26 AM, nikitsanpsix wrote:
> > >
> > > And another question is can CS transmit to midi out (B or A) already 
> > > arpegiated notes ? I want to use CS arp patterns for sequence my 
> > > Access Virus rack.
> > >
> > > __._,_.__
> >
>

parameter 897 is PRESET_SELECT. -1 is the edit buffer.
parameter 1027 is PRESET_ARP_PATTERN.

I don't have a controller set up to send a stream of sysex, but if I did, to test I would:
1. Select a preexisting arp pattern on the front panel.
2. Via sysex set parameter 897 to -1.
3. Via sysex, send data to parameter 1027.

I am not sure this will let you change patterns on the fly, but this is the first thing I would test to give it a try.

If it works, I would next try changing specific arp presets active on different channels.  And if this works (not sure that it will, but who knows), bear in mind that you just might be changing the preset in memory. So, make sure you test this on backup copies of your presets.

If I get a chance, I will try to simulate this with a sequencer.

Steve







--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

> I am thinking it also >might< be possible to do a parameter edit via sysex to change the arp pattern. I will have to look that up, though.

Just did a quick test as follows:

1. Point parameter edit vale to -1 (edit buffer).
F0 18 0F 00 55 01 02 01 07 7F 7F F7 

2. Change arpeggiator pattern to 06 00.
F0 18 0F 00 55 01 02 03 08 06 00 F7 
(Also tried other values.)

My P2500 performed as expected. I was able to switch arp patterns on the fly for the preset in the edit buffer by sending various sysex commands.

Hope this helps.

Steve






--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> parameter 897 is PRESET_SELECT. -1 is the edit buffer.
> parameter 1027 is PRESET_ARP_PATTERN.
> 
> I don't have a controller set up to send a stream of sysex, but if I did, to test I would:
> 1. Select a preexisting arp pattern on the front panel.
> 2. Via sysex set parameter 897 to -1.
> 3. Via sysex, send data to parameter 1027.
> 
> I am not sure this will let you change patterns on the fly, but this is the first thing I would test to give it a try.
> 
> If it works, I would next try changing specific arp presets active on different channels.  And if this works (not sure that it will, but who knows), bear in mind that you just might be changing the preset in memory. So, make sure you test this on backup copies of your presets.
> 
> If I get a chance, I will try to simulate this with a sequencer.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In xl7@...m, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@> wrote:
> 
> > I am thinking it also >might< be possible to do a parameter edit via sysex to change the arp pattern. I will have to look that up, though.
>

PS: The PRESET_ARP_PATTERN_ROM_ID is parameter 1042.

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> Just did a quick test as follows:
> 
> 1. Point parameter edit vale to -1 (edit buffer).
> F0 18 0F 00 55 01 02 01 07 7F 7F F7 
> 
> 2. Change arpeggiator pattern to 06 00.
> F0 18 0F 00 55 01 02 03 08 06 00 F7 
> (Also tried other values.)
> 
> My P2500 performed as expected. I was able to switch arp patterns on the fly for the preset in the edit buffer by sending various sysex commands.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@> wrote:
> >
> > parameter 897 is PRESET_SELECT. -1 is the edit buffer.
> > parameter 1027 is PRESET_ARP_PATTERN.
> > 
> > I don't have a controller set up to send a stream of sysex, but if I did, to test I would:
> > 1. Select a preexisting arp pattern on the front panel.
> > 2. Via sysex set parameter 897 to -1.
> > 3. Via sysex, send data to parameter 1027.
> > 
> > I am not sure this will let you change patterns on the fly, but this is the first thing I would test to give it a try.
> > 
> > If it works, I would next try changing specific arp presets active on different channels.  And if this works (not sure that it will, but who knows), bear in mind that you just might be changing the preset in memory. So, make sure you test this on backup copies of your presets.
> > 
> > If I get a chance, I will try to simulate this with a sequencer.
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@> wrote:
> > 
> > > I am thinking it also >might< be possible to do a parameter edit via sysex to change the arp pattern. I will have to look that up, though.
> >
>

I may have posted my code on another site.  If you might be interested, I will take a look and get you a link if I posted it.

Steve



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, nikitsan <nikitsan@...> wrote:

>
> I want to make it (arpegiator) on arduino.
> I have done hardware part and work on soft, but it`s so slowly (because i`m not good programmer)
> 
> 28 ÓÅÎÔ. 2012, × 01:35, steve_the_composer ÎÁÐÉÓÁÌ(Á):
> 
> > As an experiment, I edited arp patterns on the fly with Prodatum software. The results were so great that I encouraged Jan Eidmann (who developed Prodatum) to do a standalone 32 channel live arp editor. However, I seem to recall that in the discussion the issue of using up flash rom cycles arose. 
> > 
> > I do recall having a lot of fun doing on the fly editing with the Prodatum arp editor--changing end points, doing skips, etc. with a quick click of the mouse. But with the risk of premature flash rom burnt out (or would it be burn in?), I stopped.
> > 
> > So, it can be done with software, but I don't recommend it.
> > 
> > I am sure it would be possible to build an external device with a microprocessor to store arp patterns and edit them on the fly. Two summers ago, I hard coded a randomizing arp generator that sent midi data to my E-Mu. (I basically had an array with notes to be selected from. On the back burner is an arp controller with several sliders to do live performance mods. I would encourage others to experiment with expanding their E-Mus with customized (and customizable) microprocessor controllers.
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> >
>

ok. now its work on my arduino. i can change preset arp parameters for current preset.
but would be nice to control several channels simultaneously.

oh god i found bad news on page 333 in XL7 manual ((((

(There is only one edit buffer which is used by the current preset (the preset shown in the display). You can edit only one preset at a time via SysEx commands, although these presets can be edited independently of the current preset edited using the Front Panel. Remote Preset selection is independent of the edit buffer. Changing the current preset erases the edit buffer.)

maybe it is possible via CC messages???

2012/10/13 nikitsanpsix <nikitsan@...>:
> (There is only one edit buffer which is used by the current preset (the preset shown in the display). You can edit only one preset at a time via SysEx commands, although these presets can be edited independently of the current preset edited using the Front Panel. Remote Preset selection is independent of the edit buffer. Changing the current preset erases the edit buffer.)

I don't know why do you think it's bad news.

System Exclusive is nothing more than writing to the RAM memory of
your sound module. So at any given time you can use SysEx to edit any
of the presets stored in one of the User banks. This is not the same
as editing any preset (including the factory ones) from the level of
the front panel, as front panel is actually using the edit buffer.

Probably due to rather complex structure of sounds (and its number) in
P2K platform, E-mu uses a kind of "point & edit" attitude - first you
send a SysEx message which selects one of the User presets, and then
you use universal messages, which mean for instance "change the arp
pattern of the selected preset" (in most other synths you would rather
use a parameterized message, like "change the arp pattern of the
preset number X").

So, I assume that "you can edit only one preset at a time via SysEx
commands" means that you cannot make a MIDI controller to alter TWO
different presets at the same time, since instead of sending SysEx
"change the filter cutoff of user preset 1" and then "change the
release time of user preset 2", you would rather send:
 - select user preset 1
 - change the filter cutoff
 - select user preset 2
 - change the release time
which can easily create a SysEx storm, not to mention wearing the Flash RAM out.

I would also say that - apart from arp patterns - many sound params
are mappable to realtime controllers, and there are 16 of them, so the
best idea would be to use the edit buffer to experiment with the
sounds until you know what params you want to have the hands-on
control, and then use the CCs to adapt it on the fly. As for the arp
patterns, they can still be changed for the preset in the edit buffer
without paying the Flash price (hmm... sounds like Magic the Gathering
term).

And if you want to change arp patterns for multiple presets at once
AND you know upfront the relevant combinations, you can use multis,
pointing to the same presets but with different arp patterns. Not sure
though, how fast it can happen - after all you recall almost complete
sound module setup, with 32 presets, FX settings etc.

Hope this helps,

Bruno

So far as I know, you can edit only one preset at a time via sysex if you use the edit buffer, but I thought you can directly edit preset data in memory.  Of course, if this can be done, it changes what's stored in memory and I assume uses up write cycles.

I assume one possibility would be use arps patterns inside the arduino and control those. 

Forgive me, I forget what you are trying to do. (1) Are you switching between different arp patterns and wanting to do that on up to 32 channels? (2) Are you editing arp pattern parameters on the fly and want to do that on up to 32 channels? Or, both? I will have to re-read the thread, but it seems from this message that you are wanting to do (2).

One of these days, I will have to set up my arduino to do midi i/o. Its not wired up right now. 

Steve




--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "nikitsanpsix" <nikitsan@...> wrote:

>
> 
> ok. now its work on my arduino. i can change preset arp parameters for current preset.
> but would be nice to control several channels simultaneously.
> 
> oh god i found bad news on page 333 in XL7 manual ((((
> 
> (There is only one edit buffer which is used by the current preset (the preset shown in the display). You can edit only one preset at a time via SysEx commands, although these presets can be edited independently of the current preset edited using the Front Panel. Remote Preset selection is independent of the edit buffer. Changing the current preset erases the edit buffer.)
> 
> maybe it is possible via CC messages???
>

Nice detailed reply here!! I have added a few comments (basically footnotes) below. Hope they help.
Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Bruno <brunorc@...> wrote:
>
> 2012/10/13 nikitsanpsix <nikitsan@...>:
> > (There is only one edit buffer which is used by the current preset (the preset shown in the display). You can edit only one preset at a time via SysEx commands, although these presets can be edited independently of the current preset edited using the Front Panel. Remote Preset selection is independent of the edit buffer. Changing the current preset erases the edit buffer.)
> 
> I don't know why do you think it's bad news.
> 
> System Exclusive is nothing more than writing to the RAM memory of
> your sound module. So at any given time you can use SysEx to edit any
> of the presets stored in one of the User banks. This is not the same
> as editing any preset (including the factory ones) from the level of
> the front panel, as front panel is actually using the edit buffer.

Steve: I was under the impression that there are in essence two edit buffers: one for sysex editing and one for parameter editing. I am not sure if I tested this. 

 
> Probably due to rather complex structure of sounds (and its number) in
> P2K platform, E-mu uses a kind of "point & edit" attitude - first you
> send a SysEx message which selects one of the User presets, and then
> you use universal messages, which mean for instance "change the arp
> pattern of the selected preset" (in most other synths you would rather
> use a parameterized message, like "change the arp pattern of the
> preset number X").
> 
> So, I assume that "you can edit only one preset at a time via SysEx
> commands" means that you cannot make a MIDI controller to alter TWO
> different presets at the same time, since instead of sending SysEx
> "change the filter cutoff of user preset 1" and then "change the
> release time of user preset 2", you would rather send:
>  - select user preset 1
>  - change the filter cutoff
>  - select user preset 2
>  - change the release time
> which can easily create a SysEx storm, not to mention wearing the Flash RAM out.

Steve: I think the wearing out of flash RAM is a good point. Somewhere there is a discussion of the life span of the RAM. 

Steve: I do believe you can stack parameter edits within a single sysex message by specifying sets of parameter id and value pairs. (Please double check me on this.) If I am right, you could change (for example) the edit layer pointers and the values for each of 4 layers all in one sysex command. 

Steve: Perhaps to not wear out memory and create sysex storms, it might be possible to filter what gets sent out such that if a slider on the controller goes from min to max rapidly, not all of that gets sent out.

Steve: Is the intent of the controller 
 (1) to have a single knob or slider change at the same time
----- (a) the same arp parameter on different channels? 
----- (b) different arp parameters on different channels?
 (2) to have multiple knobs or sliders changing different arp parameters on different channels?
 

> 
> I would also say that - apart from arp patterns - many sound params
> are mappable to realtime controllers, and there are 16 of them, so the
> best idea would be to use the edit buffer to experiment with the
> sounds until you know what params you want to have the hands-on
> control, and then use the CCs to adapt it on the fly. As for the arp
> patterns, they can still be changed for the preset in the edit buffer
> without paying the Flash price (hmm... sounds like Magic the Gathering
> term).

Steve: Yeah!! This is kinda what I have had in mind--the ability to tweak a whole bunch of sound parameters on different channels. The 16 E-Mu knobs are nice, but you still have to flip channels (unless you have the different channels programmed, but you are still limited to 16 at once).

> 
> And if you want to change arp patterns for multiple presets at once
> AND you know upfront the relevant combinations, you can use multis,
> pointing to the same presets but with different arp patterns. Not sure
> though, how fast it can happen - after all you recall almost complete
> sound module setup, with 32 presets, FX settings etc.

Steve: Hmmmmm. Its been a while since I switched multis on the fly; not sure how much of a glicth there would--mainly because there is a bunch of data that gets changed with multis. Instead, it might be better to have an external controller with buttons to switch just those parameters that need to be switched--basically emulating multis, but without changing everything. For example, 16 buttons to send out "psuedo multis" (just the data needed) with some sort of toggle to select banks of 16 multis.  

> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Bruno
>

Steve: I think this is a great discussion! It is making me want to carve out time to get back into designing my ardunio-based midi controller.

Another footnote: from the sysex manual--version 2.2 (paper page 53, pdf page 57): 

"These Selection Parameters are independent of what is selected from the Proteus front panel. Once you select something remotely, the only way to change the selection is remotely.

"Any regular front panel editing can be done without affecting what was selected for remote editing."

This is what led me to believe there were two different edit buffers--one for front panel edition and one for sysex editing.

Steve



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "nikitsanpsix" <nikitsan@...> wrote:

>
> 
> ok. now its work on my arduino. i can change preset arp parameters for current preset.
> but would be nice to control several channels simultaneously.
> 
> oh god i found bad news on page 333 in XL7 manual ((((
> 
> (There is only one edit buffer which is used by the current preset (the preset shown in the display). You can edit only one preset at a time via SysEx commands, although these presets can be edited independently of the current preset edited using the Front Panel. Remote Preset selection is independent of the edit buffer. Changing the current preset erases the edit buffer.)
> 
> maybe it is possible via CC messages???
>

2012/10/13 steve_the_composer <smw-mail@...>:
> Nice detailed reply here!! I have added a few comments (basically footnotes) below. Hope they help.

Thanks, glad you liked it. I

> Steve: I think the wearing out of flash RAM is a good point. Somewhere there is a discussion of the life span of the RAM.
>
> Steve: I do believe you can stack parameter edits within a single sysex message by specifying sets of parameter id and value pairs. (Please double check me on this.) If I am right, you could change (for example) the edit layer pointers and the values for each of 4 layers all in one sysex command.

Yes, I even think it would be possible to do something like this:
 - F0 + some standard SysEx voodoo for P2K
 - select preset A
 - do stuff to preset A
 - select preset B
 - do stuff to preset B
 - F7

Didn't test it though.

> Steve: Perhaps to not wear out memory and create sysex storms, it might be possible to filter what gets sent out such that if a slider on the controller goes from min to max rapidly, not all of that gets sent out.

Some controllers simply allow you to adjust their "verbosity", so you
don't have to filter anything.

> Steve: Yeah!! This is kinda what I have had in mind--the ability to tweak a whole bunch of sound parameters on different channels. The 16 E-Mu knobs are nice, but you still have to flip channels (unless you have the different channels programmed, but you are still limited to 16 at once).

...or you have an external controller with a bunch of knobs, that can
be assigned to different channels - or having ONE knob sending TWO
different messages on TWO different channels (BRC2000, I'm looking at
you).

>> And if you want to change arp patterns for multiple presets at once
>> AND you know upfront the relevant combinations, you can use multis,
>> pointing to the same presets but with different arp patterns. Not sure
>> though, how fast it can happen - after all you recall almost complete
>> sound module setup, with 32 presets, FX settings etc.
>
> Steve: Hmmmmm. Its been a while since I switched multis on the fly; not sure how much of a glicth there would--mainly because there is a bunch of data that gets changed with multis. Instead, it might be better to have an external controller with buttons to switch just those parameters that need to be switched--basically emulating multis, but without changing everything. For example, 16 buttons to send out "psuedo multis" (just the data needed) with some sort of toggle to select banks of 16 multis.

Which would boil down to just sending Program Change messages. If
switching FXs is expensive (in terms of time), then it makes perfect
sense.

> Steve: I think this is a great discussion! It is making me want to carve out time to get back into designing my ardunio-based midi controller.

I'm planning to hijack the mind of my more tech-savvy friend to get a
MIDI-equipped Arduino, and then learn how to program this beast. Of
course that would leave me with about 4 hrs of sleep per day, but...

Anyway, I would say that emulating P2K's arp engine should be quite
easy, since - while it has some interesting features, like latching -
it's not very sophisticated, so an Arduino would do. Also, while we're
at it, why not to just make the MIDIBOX SEQv4...

Cheers,

Bruno

Great thread guys very interesting