Emu XL-7 & MP-7 User's Group

I am posting this question here and at motunation with the hopes that somebody has run into these problems.  

1.  MP-7, Akai MPD32, Novation KS-5, MOTU MTP-AV, MidiOX, Laptop
.I wish to use the MP-7 as the clock source and tempo control
.MP-7 Midi Out/In is plugged into the MTP-AV
.MTP-AV is plugged into the laptop via USB
.KS-5 Midi Out/In is plugged into the MPD32 (Acting as a Midi Interface)
.MPD32 is plugged into the laptop via USB

Using MidiOX, I can see note data, etc and route to and from the MP-7 and KS-5...No problems.  No matter what I do, I can't get Midi clock into MidiOX from the MP-7 via the MTP-AV.

If I take the MPD-32 out of the equation and plug it directly into the MTP-AV, no problem however, I still can't see the clock data in MidiOX.  It appears that the MTP-AV will pass clock data throughout it's midi ports but not to the laptop.

If I replace the MTP-AV with an EMU 2x2 midi interface, the clock is transmitted and can be routed via the USB and midi interfaces...all is good.  Messing around with this led me to do some experimenting and hence problem #2 popped up.

2.  MP-7, Novation KS-5, MOTU MTP-AV, MidiOX, Laptop
.If I use MidiOX as the clock source with both the MP-7 and KS-5 connected to the laptop via the MTP-AV, the KS-5 arps clock well but the MP-7 tempo is 8 times the tempo set in MidiOX.  The MTP-AV can act as an MTC master however the MP-7 doesn't seem to recognize MTC so that should be irrelevant.  I checked through out the manual and every possible menu item for some sort of clock multiplier or some indication of what would cause this multiplier to the tempo.  Funny thing is, the MP-7 Tempo display shows the same tempo value that MidiOX is transmitting but the pattern is playing 8x faster.

I have several clock sources available including Live, KS-5, MP-7, Radias but ultimately, and this may sound too old school but I want the MP-7 to be the Grand Poobah in this setup

Any ideas?

Thank-you in advance

I tend to use motu midi express (8x8 midi router with a parallel port, not usb).  I did pick up a parallel port motu MTP AV, but when I found out a lot of the fancy programming was only available via Macs, I stopped trying to learn the ins and outs of the MTP AV.

That being said, I think both 8x8 midi routers use MOTU's clockworks software. (Please correct me if I am wrong about the MTP AV). 

To diagnose the problem (assuming I'm right about clockworks and the MTP AV), boot up clockworks and see what's going on with the routings and the filterings. Depending on the settings of the various pieces of gear, midi clock might not be doing what you want. That's where I'd start.

I don't know much about the other gear (just E-Mu and motu). Make sure you know what is capable of sending, receiving, and resending midi clock.  The E-Mu can be a master or a slave--depending on your setting. It will never pass incoming midi clocks out [thru]. BTW, be careful to avoid the dreading midi clock feedback loop.

> No matter what I do, I can't get Midi clock into MidiOX from the MP-7 via the MTP-AV.

This comment (above) is what makes me wonder if the MTP AV is using routings/filtering that block the midi clocks. That's why I'd check there first.

Hope this herlps.

Steve
 
   

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "siprophet0" <siprophet0@...> wrote:
>
> I am posting this question here and at motunation with the hopes that somebody has run into these problems.  
> 
> 1.  MP-7, Akai MPD32, Novation KS-5, MOTU MTP-AV, MidiOX, Laptop
> .I wish to use the MP-7 as the clock source and tempo control
> .MP-7 Midi Out/In is plugged into the MTP-AV
> .MTP-AV is plugged into the laptop via USB
> .KS-5 Midi Out/In is plugged into the MPD32 (Acting as a Midi Interface)
> .MPD32 is plugged into the laptop via USB
> 
> Using MidiOX, I can see note data, etc and route to and from the MP-7 and KS-5...No problems.  No matter what I do, I can't get Midi clock into MidiOX from the MP-7 via the MTP-AV.
> 
> If I take the MPD-32 out of the equation and plug it directly into the MTP-AV, no problem however, I still can't see the clock data in MidiOX.  It appears that the MTP-AV will pass clock data throughout it's midi ports but not to the laptop.
> 
> If I replace the MTP-AV with an EMU 2x2 midi interface, the clock is transmitted and can be routed via the USB and midi interfaces...all is good.  Messing around with this led me to do some experimenting and hence problem #2 popped up.
> 
> 2.  MP-7, Novation KS-5, MOTU MTP-AV, MidiOX, Laptop
> .If I use MidiOX as the clock source with both the MP-7 and KS-5 connected to the laptop via the MTP-AV, the KS-5 arps clock well but the MP-7 tempo is 8 times the tempo set in MidiOX.  The MTP-AV can act as an MTC master however the MP-7 doesn't seem to recognize MTC so that should be irrelevant.  I checked through out the manual and every possible menu item for some sort of clock multiplier or some indication of what would cause this multiplier to the tempo.  Funny thing is, the MP-7 Tempo display shows the same tempo value that MidiOX is transmitting but the pattern is playing 8x faster.
> 
> I have several clock sources available including Live, KS-5, MP-7, Radias but ultimately, and this may sound too old school but I want the MP-7 to be the Grand Poobah in this setup
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thank-you in advance
>

steve wrote: "I tend to use motu midi express (8x8 midi router with a parallel port, not usb).  I did 
pick up a parallel port motu MTP AV, but when I found out a lot of the 
fancy programming was only available via Macs, I stopped trying to learn the ins and outs of the MTP AV."

Wow, I really miss my MTP AV. I had to abandon it when I went from XP to Win 7 x64 since there were no 64 bit drivers.

What was it you couldn't do? I had no problems doing all kinds of setups using Clockworks on the PC.

I've hung on to the MTP AV, since it can be used stand alone.

I lucked into something else though, the Steinberg Midex 8, when some Cubase engineer decided to write 64 drivers for this discontinued product and Steinberg released the driver 'unsupported, as is.' But it works a charm.

While they (I have two) don't have the routing flexibility of the MTP AV, they do have Cubendo's 'Linear Time Base' technology, which is a buffer system working between the bespokd software and hardware to send midi data prior to when it is to be used in the sequence. This results in some of the most ... if not the most ... robust and time accurate midi timing ever.

There's always a silver lining.

DF



 
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________________________________
 From: steve_the_composer <smw-mail@prodigy.net>
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 2:17 PM
Subject: [xl7] Re: Midi Clock and MOTU Midi Timepiece AV-USB
 

  
I tend to use motu midi express (8x8 midi router with a parallel port, not usb).  I did pick up a parallel port motu MTP AV, but when I found out a lot of the fancy programming was only available via Macs, I stopped trying to learn the ins and outs of the MTP AV.

That being said, I think both 8x8 midi routers use MOTU's clockworks software. (Please correct me if I am wrong about the MTP AV). 

To diagnose the problem (assuming I'm right about clockworks and the MTP AV), boot up clockworks and see what's going on with the routings and the filterings. Depending on the settings of the various pieces of gear, midi clock might not be doing what you want. That's where I'd start.

I don't know much about the other gear (just E-Mu and motu). Make sure you know what is capable of sending, receiving, and resending midi clock.  The E-Mu can be a master or a slave--depending on your setting. It will never pass incoming midi clocks out [thru]. BTW, be careful to avoid the dreading midi clock feedback loop.

> No matter what I do, I can't get Midi clock into MidiOX from the MP-7 via the MTP-AV.

This comment (above) is what makes me wonder if the MTP AV is using routings/filtering that block the midi clocks. That's why I'd check there first.

Hope this herlps.

Steve



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "siprophet0" <siprophet0@...> wrote:
>
> I am posting this question here and at motunation with the hopes that somebody has run into these problems. 
> 
> 1.  MP-7, Akai MPD32, Novation KS-5, MOTU MTP-AV, MidiOX, Laptop
> .I wish to use the MP-7 as the clock source and tempo control
> .MP-7 Midi Out/In is plugged into the MTP-AV
> .MTP-AV is plugged into the laptop via USB
> .KS-5 Midi Out/In is plugged into the MPD32 (Acting as a Midi Interface)
> .MPD32 is plugged into the laptop via USB
> 
> Using MidiOX, I can see note data, etc and route to and from the MP-7 and KS-5...No problems.  No matter what I do, I can't get Midi clock into MidiOX from the MP-7 via the MTP-AV.
> 
> If I take the MPD-32 out of the equation and plug it directly into the MTP-AV, no problem however, I still can't see the clock data in MidiOX.  It appears that the MTP-AV will pass clock data throughout it's midi ports but not to the laptop.
> 
> If I replace the MTP-AV with an EMU 2x2 midi interface, the clock is transmitted and can be routed via the USB and midi interfaces...all is good.  Messing around with this led me to do some experimenting and hence problem #2 popped up.
> 
> 2.  MP-7, Novation KS-5, MOTU MTP-AV, MidiOX, Laptop
> .If I use MidiOX as the clock source with both the MP-7 and KS-5 connected to the laptop via the MTP-AV, the KS-5 arps clock well but the MP-7 tempo is 8 times the tempo set in MidiOX.  The MTP-AV can act as an MTC master however the MP-7 doesn't seem to recognize MTC so that should be irrelevant.  I checked through out the manual and every possible menu item for some sort of clock multiplier or some indication of what would cause this multiplier to the tempo.  Funny thing is, the MP-7 Tempo display shows the same tempo value that MidiOX is transmitting but the pattern is playing 8x faster.
> 
> I have several clock sources available including Live, KS-5, MP-7, Radias but ultimately, and this may sound too old school but I want the MP-7 to be the Grand Poobah in this setup
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Thank-you in advance
>

I tend to use motu midi express (8x8 midi router with a parallel port, not usb). I did pick up a parallel port motu MTP AV, but when I found out a lot of the fancy programming was only available via Macs, I stopped trying to learn the ins and outs of the MTP AV.

That being said, I think both 8x8 midi routers use MOTU's clockworks software. (Please correct me if I am wrong about the MTP AV).

To diagnose the problem (assuming I'm right about clockworks and the MTP AV), boot up clockworks and see what's going on with the routings and the filterings. Depending on the settings of the various pieces of gear, midi clock might not be doing what you want. That's where I'd start.

I don't know much about the other gear (just E-Mu and motu). Make sure you know what is capable of sending, receiving, and resending midi clock. The E-Mu can be a master or a slave--depending on your setting. It will never pass incoming midi clocks out [thru]. BTW, be careful to avoid the dreading midi clock feedback loop.

> No matter what I do, I can't get Midi clock into MidiOX from the MP-7 via the MTP-AV.

This comment (above) is what makes me wonder if the MTP AV is using routings/filtering that block the midi clocks. That's why I'd check there first.

Hope this herlps.

Steve



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "siprophet0" wrote:
>
> I am posting this question here and at motunation with the hopes that somebody has run into these problems.
>
> 1. MP-7, Akai MPD32, Novation KS-5, MOTU MTP-AV, MidiOX, Laptop
> .I wish to use the MP-7 as the clock source and tempo control
> .MP-7 Midi Out/In is plugged into the MTP-AV
> .MTP-AV is plugged into the laptop via USB
> .KS-5 Midi Out/In is plugged into the MPD32 (Acting as a Midi Interface)
> .MPD32 is plugged into the laptop via USB
>
> Using MidiOX, I can see note data, etc and route to and from the MP-7 and KS-5...No problems. No matter what I do, I can't get Midi clock into MidiOX from the MP-7 via the MTP-AV.
>
> If I take the MPD-32 out of the equation and plug it directly into the MTP-AV, no problem however, I still can't see the clock data in MidiOX. It appears that the MTP-AV will pass clock data throughout it's midi ports but not to the laptop.
>
> If I replace the MTP-AV with an EMU 2x2 midi interface, the clock is transmitted and can be routed via the USB and midi interfaces...all is good. Messing around with this led me to do some experimenting and hence problem #2 popped up.
>
> 2. MP-7, Novation KS-5, MOTU MTP-AV, MidiOX, Laptop
> .If I use MidiOX as the clock source with both the MP-7 and KS-5 connected to the laptop via the MTP-AV, the KS-5 arps clock well but the MP-7 tempo is 8 times the tempo set in MidiOX. The MTP-AV can act as an MTC master however the MP-7 doesn't seem to recognize MTC so that should be irrelevant. I checked through out the manual and every possible menu item for some sort of clock multiplier or some indication of what would cause this multiplier to the tempo. Funny thing is, the MP-7 Tempo display shows the same tempo value that MidiOX is transmitting but the pattern is playing 8x faster.
>
> I have several clock sources available including Live, KS-5, MP-7, Radias but ultimately, and this may sound too old school but I want the MP-7 to be the Grand Poobah in this setup
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thank-you in advance
>

I just booted the MTP AV. Clockworks does indeed work with it. If you haven't created a customized motu setup yet, figure out which piece of gear will be on which port and create a setup on the motu. (You probably can use the display interface, but I am only familiar with clockworks.)

If you want the E-Mu as the clock master and all the others as slaves, set your mutings so that only the E-Mu's midi clocks are unmuted.  The red and green lights on the motu tell you what's coming in and what's going out. If you want you can mute the outgoing clocks on devices that don't respond to midi clocks.

If I understand what you want, only the red in led for the port with the MP7 should be flashing in time to the midi clock. The green out leds should flash to show the other ports (outs) are receiving the MP7's clocks. Your settings should be such that green led indicating midi out to the MP7 should not be flashing.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted.

Steve

I hear you!!!! I miss using my 8x8 parallel port midi router on my Win 7 laptop.  No parallel port!!  

> Wow, I really miss my MTP AV. I had to abandon it when I went from XP to Win 7 x64 since there were no 64 bit drivers.

I believe you can send midi clocks in on several ports. The problem is routing multiple in ports to a single midi out ports without muting some of the midi clocks on the way out to a single port.

I thought that on the midi express, you can in effect route different midi clock sources to different midi outs.  Since the MTP AV seems to show up in clockworks, I would hope the same is possible.

I could be wrong. I will try to test this when I can--probably not tonight though.

If midi coming in to motu port 1 is being sent out to ports 2, 3 and 4 (including midi clock--no filtering) and midi coming in to motu port 8 is being sent out to ports 5, 6, and 7, I don't see how there could be any co-mingling of midi clocks.

Of course, logic doesn't always work; so I might be wrong.  (I will test when I can.)

Steve
 

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Nathan Steele <XTCaine303@...> wrote:
>
> You can only send midi clock into one port on the MTP or it will do odd 
> things like doubling, quadrupling, 8x ing the tempo. this is a known 
> "issue" if you are getting 8x tempo it sounds like 4 devices are sending 
> clock into the mtp av. as i understand it clock messages are always sent 
> out all  ports and so any input clock messages are merged and so you get 
> the increased tempo, since clock messages are not channelized one clock 
> looks like any other so four merged clocks at the same tempo produce 
> this result.

I just ran a quick test. I am partially right and partially wrong.

RIGHT: 
You can have multiple clocks on different inputs and you can have them both going out to a single output.

WRONG:
This is independent of anything on the routing tab, so you cannot route one clock to one output and a different clock to a different output.

For three screen shots from clockworks, see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/xl7/photos/album/386403292/pic/list

The Test:

I took two clock sources: (1) an older Roland RA-30 Intelligent Arranger on midi express input port 8 and (2) an E-Mu P2500 on midi express input port 4.

An XL-1 was connected to midi express output port 7. 

I set an XL-1 to external tempo, hit audition to monitor a preset, and watched the BASE TEMPO screen, which was set to "use MIDI."

In the mutings tab in clockworks, I muted [filtered out] realtime data on all incoming ports except 4 (clock from the P2500) and 8 (clock from the RA-30). See screenshot "motu-clock-test-realtime-input.jpg" .

I also muted realtime data on all outgoing ports except 7 (clock going to XL-1). See screenshot "motu-clock-test-realtime-output.jpg" .

So, you can (for example) have two or more different motu presets to switch between different master/slave configurations (one clock master going to several slaves), but you cannot route realtime data from different clock sources to different slaves.

Hope this helps.

Steve



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:
>
> I believe you can send midi clocks in on several ports. The problem is routing multiple in ports to a single midi out ports without muting some of the midi clocks on the way out to a single port.
> 
> I thought that on the midi express, you can in effect route different midi clock sources to different midi outs.  Since the MTP AV seems to show up in clockworks, I would hope the same is possible.
> 
> I could be wrong. I will try to test this when I can--probably not tonight though.
> 
> If midi coming in to motu port 1 is being sent out to ports 2, 3 and 4 (including midi clock--no filtering) and midi coming in to motu port 8 is being sent out to ports 5, 6, and 7, I don't see how there could be any co-mingling of midi clocks.
> 
> Of course, logic doesn't always work; so I might be wrong.  (I will test when I can.)
> 
> Steve
>  
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Nathan Steele <XTCaine303@> wrote:
> >
> > You can only send midi clock into one port on the MTP or it will do odd 
> > things like doubling, quadrupling, 8x ing the tempo. this is a known 
> > "issue" if you are getting 8x tempo it sounds like 4 devices are sending 
> > clock into the mtp av. as i understand it clock messages are always sent 
> > out all  ports and so any input clock messages are merged and so you get 
> > the increased tempo, since clock messages are not channelized one clock 
> > looks like any other so four merged clocks at the same tempo produce 
> > this result.
>

Thank-you to everyone helping with this.  I have narrowed the problem down
to the MTP and it's link to windows.  If I hook the MP-7 and the KS-5 to the
midi ports of the MTP and set the MP-7 as the master and the KS-5 as the
slave, the clock comes through fine with the temp of the KS-5 arps syncing
to the MP-7 tempo, the reverse works as well.  Prior to my initial post I
had done quite a bit of testing with the routing and muting in clockworks.
If I connect everything via the midi ports of the MTP all works well.  It's
when I introduce the laptop and USb that things get all wonky.  Since midi
clock is a realtime message, it is passed from the in or in's to all outs
unless muted.  
 
When I try to send the MP-7 clock into windows via the MTP, it gets lost.
This would make it impossible to slave Cubase or Live to the MP-7   L.
Either my MTP is fubar or MOTU really hates Windows and Windows users.  I
have a couple of older parallel versions so I will dig them out of storage
and see if they work.  Luckily I am using an older toughbook with an LPT
port.  I upgraded the USB MTP firmware to 2.0.1 so I could network it with
one of the parallel versions for a super 16x16 interface but I could never
get it to work under windows.
 
The big dream was to optimize this setup for live use with the MTP providing
the routings, the MP-7 as the brain and multiple controllers running
multiple synths.  Multiple arps, sequencers and synths running near the
point of chaos allowing for instant variation.  The clock was the only thing
I needed stable and the majority of the setup was hardware with the PC
running EmuX2 as a sampler, a few cool VST's and effects.   Oh well, maybe
back to the drawing board.  I still feel the MP-7 is the key to keeping the
mayhem in check as it is so immediate and instantly controllable.

Steve:
 
Using your test setup, have you ever tried to slave a vst arp or DAW clock
to one of the hardware clocks through the MOTU?
 
Thanks again for your help

Excellent question. 

Years ago, I had multiple user presets for switching between clock sources. One was for Cakewalk as master, another had it as a slave. I also had test motu presets for different gear as clock masters.  Those might have been in the Win98SE motu console, which is not compatible with clockworks. I know I did recreate some versions with SONAR and WinXP. I will take a look for them.    

As you probably know, the midi express model has 8 factory presets and 8 user presets. When I do live performance, I will either use my own settings, or sometimes the factory presets--usually live keyboards, merge all, merge some,or dual split.

I don't do much midi recording to DAW (SONAR, in my case), but when I did, I would use of of the sequencer presets (fps is unimportant to me). Also, when I dump E-Mu presets to SONAR (backing up banks, individual presets, and multis), I use one of the sequencer settings.

I was thinking about that in connection with you previous post.

I never figured out what was different about the sequencer presets; I just knew that when I did something with the sequencer, the throughput worked. Your setup has insipred me to want to sort this one out (and maybe learn to use the MTP-AV!!!!).

Later this weekend (possible this afternoon/evening), I will pull out both motu manuals to see if its explained. I will also set up several clock sources and try to push the limits in order to sort these things out. 

Steve  



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "David C." <siprophet0@...> wrote:
>
> Steve:
>  
> Using your test setup, have you ever tried to slave a vst arp or DAW clock
> to one of the hardware clocks through the MOTU?
>  
> Thanks again for your help
>

See comments below.

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "David C." <siprophet0@...> wrote:

> when I introduce the laptop and USb that things get all wonky.  
Steve: Hmmm.

  
> When I try to send the MP-7 clock into windows via the MTP, it gets lost.
Steve: Hmmmmmmmmmm.

> This would make it impossible to slave Cubase or Live to the MP-7   L.
Steve: I wonder if my observations about the Sequncer presets in the midi express relate to this.


> Either my MTP is fubar or MOTU really hates Windows and Windows users.  
Steve: Yes, motu is more Mac Friendly that Windows friendly!!


> I have a couple of older parallel versions so I will dig them out of storage
> and see if they work.  Luckily I am using an older toughbook with an LPT
> port.

> I upgraded the USB MTP firmware to 2.0.1 so I could network it with
> one of the parallel versions for a super 16x16 interface but I could never
> get it to work under windows.

Steve: I tried something similar with the midi express and the mtp and an old Mac Performa. That's when I discovered that you could do stuff with the Mac and the mtp-av that you can't do with Windows. I did have a 2 x 8x8 setup, but I couldn't justify spending time to learn how to program the mtp.

> The big dream was to optimize this setup for live use with the MTP providing
> the routings, the MP-7 as the brain and multiple controllers running
> multiple synths.  Multiple arps, sequencers and synths running near the
> point of chaos allowing for instant variation.  The clock was the only thing
> I needed stable and the majority of the setup was hardware with the PC
> running EmuX2 as a sampler, a few cool VST's and effects.   Oh well, maybe
> back to the drawing board.  I still feel the MP-7 is the key to keeping the
> mayhem in check as it is so immediate and instantly controllable.
>
Steve: A few years ago, I had a gig box set up with some modules and a midi express to do my routing.  I discovered that in transit either the battery died or got loose and I lost my motu user presets. Fortunately, I was able to change the connections and use one of the factory presets (midi machine) that routes one set of ins to some outs and other ins to different outs.

Do you have visual representations of either your set up or your ideal set up.

Do you have a link handy to the mtp-av usb manual?

Can you use midi-ox in your set-up to do routings?

Steve

PS: I do have VST host and Proteus VX and can also try to slave those to the P2500. (Not sure if I tried that before.) Will also try some VSTs in SONAR.  

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "David C." <siprophet0@...> wrote:
>
> Steve:
>  
> Using your test setup, have you ever tried to slave a vst arp or DAW clock
> to one of the hardware clocks through the MOTU?
>  
> Thanks again for your help
>