Emu XL-7 & MP-7 User's Group

something else that's been bugging me about the xl7...

  track-1 -> channel-1 -> drum-kit-xyz
  track-2 -> channel-2 -> drum-kit-xyz
  track-3 -> channel-3 -> drum-kit-xyz

that would let me have control of the mutes using the track-mute buttons 
for different parts of the drum kit, independent of each other. eg, kick 
on track-1, snare on track-2, other percussion on track-3.

each of the drum kits, on different channels, should be independent of 
each other to the extent that they're operating on different channels. 
but... if the kit has knobs assigned to parameters (quick edit) then all 
of the kits (same kit, different channels) respond to knob-changes, not 
just the kit on the channel that's currently selected.

is this a bug or an undocumented feature? i don't like it :(


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         ...atom

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 	"Microsoft shouldn't be broken up. It should be shut down."
 		-- Bruce Schneier, 15 May 2000

As long, as the tracks reference the same preset, then changing on one of them
affects all. This is logical, as CC changes occur at the preset level.
If you want separate control, then you have to duplicate the preset on separate
memory slots, then reference them individually from your tracks.

Mutes, contrary, occur at track level, that's why you can have independent 
mutes.


Regards,

    Zsolt | http://adsr.hu





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Atom Smasher" <atom@...>
To: <xl7@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2011 12:40 PM
Subject: [xl7] another bug?


> something else that's been bugging me about the xl7...
>
>  track-1 -> channel-1 -> drum-kit-xyz
>  track-2 -> channel-2 -> drum-kit-xyz
>  track-3 -> channel-3 -> drum-kit-xyz
>
> that would let me have control of the mutes using the track-mute buttons
> for different parts of the drum kit, independent of each other. eg, kick
> on track-1, snare on track-2, other percussion on track-3.
>
> each of the drum kits, on different channels, should be independent of
> each other to the extent that they're operating on different channels.
> but... if the kit has knobs assigned to parameters (quick edit) then all
> of the kits (same kit, different channels) respond to knob-changes, not
> just the kit on the channel that's currently selected.
>
> is this a bug or an undocumented feature? i don't like it :(
>
>
> -- 
>         ...atom
>
>  ________________________
>  http://atom.smasher.org/
>  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>  -------------------------------------------------
>
>  "Microsoft shouldn't be broken up. It should be shut down."
>  -- Bruce Schneier, 15 May 2000
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

> As long, as the tracks reference the same preset, then changing on one 
> of them affects all. This is logical, as CC changes occur at the preset 
> level. If you want separate control, then you have to duplicate the 
> preset on separate memory slots, then reference them individually from 
> your tracks.
=====================

but... changes that are recorded as events in the sequencer are ONLY 
recognized by the preset on that channel, even if the same preset is used 
on multiple channels.

that, to me, is logical because each instance of the (same) preset on 
different channels should be independent of other channels (even if other 
channels use the same preset).

i think it might be bug in the routing of the knobs being not what's 
documented on pg 340 of the manual.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"Unthinking respect for authority
 	 is the greatest enemy of truth."
 		-- Albert Einstein

been considering starting a topic about this. i think song mode on the cs is jacked no matter what i do. first off, now that you explain it the extra track mutes i see in the time line(as in four mutes in a row for track 12, each one tick after the other when i only pressed it once) might be a result of it being cluttered at once and redistributing the extra events.

then there are times when, after saving a song and going back to it there will be a moment halfway through the song where all tracks become silent and no muting and unmuting will bring them back. then i go into the event history and find an eroneous mute event for track 1, when i had only been using tracks 9-16(?) that somehow has been thrown in the mix and is the culprit for silencing all tracks after that point.

then there are times when halfway through a saved song, one track will become permanently unmuted with no unmute events in the time line to suggest so, and therefore cannot be deleted :/

i also notice my xl7 will sometimes freeze on startup with all lights on and sometimes when i press the button to shut down it just says 'f-- it' and shuts down right away with no countdown. also it gets very warm when left on for more than an hour and has a rancid smell kind of like burnt hair on an old space heater.

so if there is a problem with the hardware like the psu i can understand the latter points but the song mode errors are absolutely insane and hopefully not what was originally shipped.

i'm seriously thinking of getting another sequencer like an asr-x and syncing the two and playing my track mutes into the asr, then playing back into the cs once edited. this way the asr-x only receives note information on a pattern track and not mute events. then i can record it back into the cs in pattern mode and forego song mode.

maybe i'll post this at gearslutz as there are a few cs lovers there too. song mode just might not be in the cards. then again, when has any company made something with everything you need. seems like no matter what you buy, it only has parts of what you need and you have to buy from another company to get the other parts.

aaron, what's the deal with song mode?





--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:
>
> > As long, as the tracks reference the same preset, then changing on one 
> > of them affects all. This is logical, as CC changes occur at the preset 
> > level. If you want separate control, then you have to duplicate the 
> > preset on separate memory slots, then reference them individually from 
> > your tracks.
> =====================
> 
> but... changes that are recorded as events in the sequencer are ONLY 
> recognized by the preset on that channel, even if the same preset is used 
> on multiple channels.
> 
> that, to me, is logical because each instance of the (same) preset on 
> different channels should be independent of other channels (even if other 
> channels use the same preset).
> 
> i think it might be bug in the routing of the knobs being not what's 
> documented on pg 340 of the manual.
> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"Unthinking respect for authority
>  	 is the greatest enemy of truth."
>  		-- Albert Einstein
>

I don't think it's a bug, but it could be implemented better. 

If you have the same kit on three channels and you want to save changes on one channel, saving will affect the preset on all channels because, well, it's the same preset.

It's just a lot easier to use a different preset on each channel. This is where preset templates + automation come in handy (not to mention good habits re: saving and preset naming. I name each multi after a colour and save the related presets with the same colour name).

It's a bit of effort initially, but necessary if you want full control...




--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:
>
> > As long, as the tracks reference the same preset, then changing on one 
> > of them affects all. This is logical, as CC changes occur at the preset 
> > level. If you want separate control, then you have to duplicate the 
> > preset on separate memory slots, then reference them individually from 
> > your tracks.
> =====================
> 
> but... changes that are recorded as events in the sequencer are ONLY 
> recognized by the preset on that channel, even if the same preset is used 
> on multiple channels.
> 
> that, to me, is logical because each instance of the (same) preset on 
> different channels should be independent of other channels (even if other 
> channels use the same preset).
> 
> i think it might be bug in the routing of the knobs being not what's 
> documented on pg 340 of the manual.
> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"Unthinking respect for authority
>  	 is the greatest enemy of truth."
>  		-- Albert Einstein
>

This is interesting. As a test I set up the same arp pattern on 3 channels, started the same arp (different notes) from my usb/midi keyboard, and didn't seem to have the problem you describe.

However, I was using a slider on the keyboard that corresponds to MidiA. So when I tried MidiA in Quick Edit mode, sure enough it affected all instances of the preset, not just the one on the Basic Channel (i.e., the channel current on the display).

The next test was to set up Knob 1/MidiA in Program Mode to simulate my usn/midi keyboard slider. They functioned the same: only the patch on that channel was affected.

Now that I think about it, I'd say that's part of the design of Quick Edit mode (not a bug): the knobs edit the preset itself, not the channel settings. This makes sense. That's why the asterisk appears after the name when you tweak the preset using the quick edit knobs--to tell us that the preset has been changed and to give us an opportunity to save it if we want.

Using the knobs in Program Mode would seem to be more suited for performance tweaking of presets either on specific channels or the Basic Channel.

Hope this helps.

Steve 

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:
>
> something else that's been bugging me about the xl7...
> 
>   track-1 -> channel-1 -> drum-kit-xyz
>   track-2 -> channel-2 -> drum-kit-xyz
>   track-3 -> channel-3 -> drum-kit-xyz
> 
> that would let me have control of the mutes using the track-mute buttons 
> for different parts of the drum kit, independent of each other. eg, kick 
> on track-1, snare on track-2, other percussion on track-3.
> 
> each of the drum kits, on different channels, should be independent of 
> each other to the extent that they're operating on different channels. 
> but... if the kit has knobs assigned to parameters (quick edit) then all 
> of the kits (same kit, different channels) respond to knob-changes, not 
> just the kit on the channel that's currently selected.
> 
> is this a bug or an undocumented feature? i don't like it :(
> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"Microsoft shouldn't be broken up. It should be shut down."
>  		-- Bruce Schneier, 15 May 2000
>

This makes sense in connection with my previous explanation: When in quick edit mode, the CCs get recorded as track events and on playback they only affect the instance of the preset on the channel where the CCs were recorded.

So, the question is, if we use Quick Edit Mode to change a preset which is on multiple channels, are we hearing something different from what gets recorded (because we are actually editing the preset itself)? 

I just did a quick test with arps on 3 channels and if my hearing is accurate, I'd say yes.

To confirm this I recorded just CCs on track 4. (I was using filter cutoff. Channel 1 was high on beats 1 and 2 then went low for beats 3 and 4. Channel 2 was the reverse--high on beats 3 and 4 and then went low for beats 1 and 2. Channel 3 was random.)

So, while using the knobs in quick edit mode when recording CCs on Track 4, I heard the filter change on all notes on all 3 channels (in addition to the recorded CCs). However, after the 8 measure loop started repeating and I was no longer editing the preset (by using the quick edit knobs), the filtering occured based solely on the channel-level CCs recorded in each track.

Obviously, there's more than meets the ear here, what with the various sequencer recording parameters (rechannelize, etc.), but I hope this helps make sense of what's going on.

Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:
>
> > As long, as the tracks reference the same preset, then changing on one 
> > of them affects all. This is logical, as CC changes occur at the preset 
> > level. If you want separate control, then you have to duplicate the 
> > preset on separate memory slots, then reference them individually from 
> > your tracks.
> =====================
> 
> but... changes that are recorded as events in the sequencer are ONLY 
> recognized by the preset on that channel, even if the same preset is used 
> on multiple channels.
> 
> that, to me, is logical because each instance of the (same) preset on 
> different channels should be independent of other channels (even if other 
> channels use the same preset).
> 
> i think it might be bug in the routing of the knobs being not what's 
> documented on pg 340 of the manual.
> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"Unthinking respect for authority
>  	 is the greatest enemy of truth."
>  		-- Albert Einstein
>

Good news (I hope): I checked my P2500 manual and discovered you can turn off Quick Edit. In the Controllers menu system there is a KNOBS PRESET QUICK EDIT parameter. Change it from enabled to disabled and your quick edit knobs function as CC knobs without editing the preset on any channels. (No asterisk after tweaking knobs!!!!!) Maybe this is the solution you are looking for.

Steve

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011, steve_the_composer wrote:

> Now that I think about it, I'd say that's part of the design of Quick 
> Edit mode (not a bug): the knobs edit the preset itself, not the channel 
> settings. This makes sense. That's why the asterisk appears after the 
> name when you tweak the preset using the quick edit knobs--to tell us 
> that the preset has been changed and to give us an opportunity to save 
> it if we want.
===================

so... quick-edit from the panel is editing the preset... but quick-edit 
via MIDI doesn't?

otherwise, i guess it makes sense, but then it's a documentation failure.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

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On Sun, 20 Mar 2011, steve_the_composer wrote:

> Good news (I hope): I checked my P2500 manual and discovered you can 
> turn off Quick Edit. In the Controllers menu system there is a KNOBS 
> PRESET QUICK EDIT parameter. Change it from enabled to disabled and your 
> quick edit knobs function as CC knobs without editing the preset on any 
> channels. (No asterisk after tweaking knobs!!!!!) Maybe this is the 
> solution you are looking for.
===========

``"Quick-Edit" changes the initial controller setting in the preset 
whenever you move a Control Knob. This parameter selects whether or not 
the front panel Controller Knobs are used to Quick-Edit the currently 
selected preset.''

that is helpful, and makes sense. it's a bit ambiguous because when i read 
it previously (before discovering this issue) i interpreted it as meaning 
that disabling it would just turn off any function of the edit knobs, so i 
dismissed it as something i didn't have a need to change.

thanks...


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
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  -------------------------------------------------

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