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event: mute (song mode)

event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-19 by Atom Smasher

wtf?!?! am i doing something wrong, or does this just not work... i'm 
trying to get multiple track-mutes recorded as simultaneous events in song 
mode. it seems that only one track mute can occupy a "tick". as soon as i 
try to mute more than one track at the same tick, they clobber each other 
and only one survives.

is there a better way to do this than spread out my track mutes over 
consecutive ticks? i should be able to make them happen all at once!


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         ...atom

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Re: [xl7] event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-19 by Atom Smasher

On Sat, 19 Mar 2011, Atom Smasher wrote:

> wtf?!?! am i doing something wrong, or does this just not work... i'm 
> trying to get multiple track-mutes recorded as simultaneous events in 
> song mode. it seems that only one track mute can occupy a "tick". as 
> soon as i try to mute more than one track at the same tick, they clobber 
> each other and only one survives.
===============

this is really making the xl7's song mode unusable for me. if i 
accidentally place an un/mute event at the same tick as a pre-existing 
un/mute event, one will annihilate the other.

this is insanely frustrating!!!!

someone *please* tell me i'm doing something wrong!


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         ...atom

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  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?"
 	      -- H. M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927.

Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-20 by steve_the_composer

Based on my exploration in Song Mode's Event Editor, it does indeed look like only one mute/unmute event can exist at any one tick. It seems similar to what I explored with regard to CCs in step mode: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xl7/message/21070. (For any specific CC, you can only have one value at any given tick, though you can have many different CCs at the same tick.)

I am wondering if having mutes/unmutes separated over the maximum span of 16 ticks makes an audible difference.

As I mentioned before, I never use Song Mode. So for my own curiosity I explored mute/unmutes. I discovered that at step boundaries (if you are chaining patterns together), you can have simultaneous mutes/unmutes. (I assume this doesn't help with what you are trying to do, but I thought I'd mention it in this thread in case others are exploring Song Mode.)

I seem to remember testing Song Mode by chaining several patterns and then overdubbing a single song mode layer, only to discover that song mode only had one track. After that, I didn't use it (except maybe to listen to the factory demo songs a couple of times).

I am curious to know what kinds of things you and others are doing in Song Mode (other than chaining patterns together and/or making single tracks). 

Steve 



Steve


--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> wtf?!?! am i doing something wrong, or does this just not work... i'm 
> trying to get multiple track-mutes recorded as simultaneous events in song 
> mode. it seems that only one track mute can occupy a "tick". as soon as i 
> try to mute more than one track at the same tick, they clobber each other 
> and only one survives.
> 
> is there a better way to do this than spread out my track mutes over 
> consecutive ticks? i should be able to make them happen all at once!
> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"The future isn't what it used to be."
>  	      -- Yogi Berra
>

Re: [xl7] Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-20 by Atom Smasher

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011, steve_the_composer wrote:

> Based on my exploration in Song Mode's Event Editor, it does indeed look 
> like only one mute/unmute event can exist at any one tick. It seems 
> similar to what I explored with regard to CCs in step mode: 
> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xl7/message/21070. (For any 
> specific CC, you can only have one value at any given tick, though you 
> can have many different CCs at the same tick.)
==================

the CC thing is documented, and it makes sense (unless you're talking 
about multiple CCs on different channels). simultaneous multiples of the 
same event serve no purpose (possibly, with very rare exception).

"You cannot have two events with the exact same time and data in a 
pattern. XL-7 will delete any duplicate events as soon as you increment 
the event or exit the screen." - pg99

i think the quote above is reasonable... but shouldn't apply when 
something like this is programmed into a single tick:
  mute - track 2
  mute - track 3
  unmute - track 10

those are certainly different events!

it's even more frustrating knowing there's likely an undocumented method 
of accessing mutes via sysex... and i don't know what it is.


> I am wondering if having mutes/unmutes separated over the maximum span 
> of 16 ticks makes an audible difference.
=============

that might be alright most of the time, but when creating/editing/moving 
these events in the event editor, and dropping more than one un/mute event 
into the same tick causes data destruction, that's a deal-breaker. in my 
work-flow that's just slamming my head against a wall.


> As I mentioned before, I never use Song Mode. So for my own curiosity I 
> explored mute/unmutes. I discovered that at step boundaries (if you are 
> chaining patterns together), you can have simultaneous mutes/unmutes. (I 
> assume this doesn't help with what you are trying to do, but I thought 
> I'd mention it in this thread in case others are exploring Song Mode.)
==============

tell me more about the step boundary thing. is that the zero-tick between 
patterns? i'm not sure if it will help me, but it'd be good to know, 
anyway.


> I am curious to know what kinds of things you and others are doing in 
> Song Mode (other than chaining patterns together and/or making single 
> tracks).
============

basically, i'm trying to do some linear, instead of loop-based, 
sequencing. i haven't tried song-mode before, but i was thinking that if 
i'm trying to use it, it would be great to have my un/mutes all sequenced 
and edited and rock-solid. i guess that's just not gonna work.



-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this
 	 faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the
 	 atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few
 	 theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
 		-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Re: [xl7] Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-21 by Matt

You should be able to have different cc values for different tracks without clobbering eachother. But song mode is weird and it seems like there might be only one song track? This might be causing the cc conflict. Not sure with this. Haven't done enough playing with song mode.
i know for a fact that if you step mode a pattern in song mode it will implement whichever mutes are implemented originally in that pattern. so for example, when you save a pattern if you have track 1 and 2 muted and track 3 4 and 5 unmuted, then if you implement that pattern via step in song mode then it will mute and unmute the tracks exactly as the pattern is saved. So it seems to me if you wanted to mute/unmute tracks you could just have a blank pattern except for track mutes/unmutes and implement it in step mode. Then come and record in the notes later. This might serve as a work around... although for some reason I think you might just be doing something in a way the CS doesn't like.
regardless, why would you need recorded track mutes if you're doing linear sequencing? cant you just delete note events or whatever from that time frame you want muted?
Seems like there is much less use for track mutes when things aren't looping.


Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2011, steve_the_composer wrote:

> Based on my exploration in Song Mode's Event Editor, it does indeed look
> like only one mute/unmute event can exist at any one tick. It seems
> similar to what I explored with regard to CCs in step mode:
> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/xl7/message/21070. (For any
> specific CC, you can only have one value at any given tick, though you
> can have many different CCs at the same tick.)
==================

the CC thing is documented, and it makes sense (unless you're talking
about multiple CCs on different channels). simultaneous multiples of the
same event serve no purpose (possibly, with very rare exception).

"You cannot have two events with the exact same time and data in a
pattern. XL-7 will delete any duplicate events as soon as you increment
the event or exit the screen." - pg99

i think the quote above is reasonable... but shouldn't apply when
something like this is programmed into a single tick:
mute - track 2
mute - track 3
unmute - track 10

those are certainly different events!

it's even more frustrating knowing there's likely an undocumented method
of accessing mutes via sysex... and i don't know what it is.


> I am wondering if having mutes/unmutes separated over the maximum span
> of 16 ticks makes an audible difference.
=============

that might be alright most of the time, but when creating/editing/moving
these events in the event editor, and dropping more than one un/mute event
into the same tick causes data destruction, that's a deal-breaker. in my
work-flow that's just slamming my head against a wall.


> As I mentioned before, I never use Song Mode. So for my own curiosity I
> explored mute/unmutes. I discovered that at step boundaries (if you are
> chaining patterns together), you can have simultaneous mutes/unmutes. (I
> assume this doesn't help with what you are trying to do, but I thought
> I'd mention it in this thread in case others are exploring Song Mode.)
==============

tell me more about the step boundary thing. is that the zero-tick between
patterns? i'm not sure if it will help me, but it'd be good to know,
anyway.


> I am curious to know what kinds of things you and others are doing in
> Song Mode (other than chaining patterns together and/or making single
> tracks).
============

basically, i'm trying to do some linear, instead of loop-based,
sequencing. i haven't tried song-mode before, but i was thinking that if
i'm trying to use it, it would be great to have my un/mutes all sequenced
and edited and rock-solid. i guess that's just not gonna work.


--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this
faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the
atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few
theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
-- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

Re: [xl7] Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-21 by Atom Smasher

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011, Matt wrote:

> regardless, why would you need recorded track mutes if you're doing 
> linear sequencing? cant you just delete note events or whatever from 
> that time frame you want muted? Seems like there is much less use for 
> track mutes when things aren't looping.
===============

1) if the mutes don't work out as planned/desired, it's much easier to 
unmute than it is to replace notes.

2) AFAICT, you can't "just" delete notes in song mode; that would have to 
be edited in the pattern/loop.

3) it *might* be possible to insert CC7 events and use MIDI volume control 
to "mute" tracks in song mode (i haven't tried this yet) but it would be a 
PITA to unmute tracks when the volumes are not all set to 127.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"Never have the armies of the North brought peace,
 	 prosperity, or democracy to the peoples of Asia,
 	 Africa, or Latin America. In the future, as in the
 	 past five centuries, they can only bring to these
 	 peoples further servitude, the exploitation of their
 	 labor, the expropriation of their riches, and the denial
 	 of their rights. It is of the utmost importance that the
 	 progressive forces of the West understand this."
 		-- Samir Amin,
 		director of Forum du Tiers Monde in Dakar, Senegal

Re: [xl7] Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-25 by Matt

page 61 of manual
"Songs can link patterns together to form more complicated arrangements.
There is also an additional song track which can be used to record notes,
controllers, pattern mutes or any other MIDI data. Songs can be of any
length, unlike patterns which are limited to 32 bars."
so the song track is the extra track which can't take more than one event in a tick i guess?


Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011, Matt wrote:

> regardless, why would you need recorded track mutes if you're doing
> linear sequencing? cant you just delete note events or whatever from
> that time frame you want muted? Seems like there is much less use for
> track mutes when things aren't looping.
===============

1) if the mutes don't work out as planned/desired, it's much easier to
unmute than it is to replace notes.

2) AFAICT, you can't "just" delete notes in song mode; that would have to
be edited in the pattern/loop.

3) it *might* be possible to insert CC7 events and use MIDI volume control
to "mute" tracks in song mode (i haven't tried this yet) but it would be a
PITA to unmute tracks when the volumes are not all set to 127.


--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

";Never have the armies of the North brought peace,
prosperity, or democracy to the peoples of Asia,
Africa, or Latin America. In the future, as in the
past five centuries, they can only bring to these
peoples further servitude, the exploitation of their
labor, the expropriation of their riches, and the denial
of their rights. It is of the utmost importance that the
progressive forces of the West understand this."
-- Samir Amin,
director of Forum du Tiers Monde in Dakar, Senegal

Re: [xl7] Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-25 by Matt

page 51 of manual
"Song Record Modes
• Realtime Record - Events are stored as they are played on the keypad,
controllers or from the MIDI input port as the single realtime track
plays. The original channel of each event is maintained when recorded.
• Step Edit - In this mode, you can single-step through the bar locations
and place Pattern Inserts wherever you want.
Songs store the following information in non-volatile Flash memory:
• Song Name & Number
• Realtime note & controller information
• Track Mutes (these can be recorded in real-time on the linear song track
and supersede the pattern track mutes)";

it says here you should be able to use track mutes in song mode in real time or in step time. is the problem that they cannot be on the same tick?


Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Matt <somatt@...> wrote:
page 61 of manual
"Songs can link patterns together to form more complicated arrangements.
There is also an additional song track which can be used to record notes,
controllers, pattern mutes or any other MIDI data. Songs can be of any
length, unlike patterns which are limited to 32 bars."
so the song track is the extra track which can't take more than one event in a tick i guess?



On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011, Matt wrote:

> regardless, why would you need recorded track mutes if you're doing
> linear sequencing? cant you just delete note events or whatever from
> that time frame you want muted? Seems like there is much less use for
> track mutes when things aren't looping.
===============

1) if the mutes don't work out as planned/desired, it's much easier to
unmute than it is to replace notes.

2) AFAICT, you can't "just" delete notes in song mode; that would have to
be edited in the pattern/loop.

3) it *might* be possible to insert CC7 events and use MIDI volume control
to "mute" tracks in song mode (i haven't tried this yet) but it would be a
PITA to unmute tracks when the volumes are not all set to 127.


--
...atom

________________________
http://atom.smasher.org/
762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
-------------------------------------------------

"Never have the armies of the North brought peace,
prosperity, or democracy to the peoples of Asia,
Africa, or Latin America. In the future, as in the
past five centuries, they can only bring to these
peoples further servitude, the exploitation of their
labor, the expropriation of their riches, and the denial
of their rights. It is of the utmost importance that the
progressive forces of the West understand this."
-- Samir Amin,
director of Forum du Tiers Monde in Dakar, Senegal


Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-25 by dutchbeats

if you have a mute at .146 and another at .147, changing the first one to .147 will write over the second one. might be a good way to erase
a bunch of mutes though, scroll the time field while on one mute event. the only muting that can be done in step mode is when you call up a pattern and change it's original mute settings and press enter to input the step, it will begin that way in the song.

i think what is happening in real time mode is when i press four mutes simultaneously for example, it gets recorded into the event list as four mutes(/or unmutes) from the same track. more testing to do



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Matt <somatt@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> page 51 of manual
> "Song Record Modes
> • Realtime Record - Events are stored as they are played on the keypad,
> controllers or from the MIDI input port as the single realtime track
> plays. The original channel of each event is maintained when recorded.
> • Step Edit - In this mode, you can single-step through the bar locations
> and place Pattern Inserts wherever you want.
> Songs store the following information in non-volatile Flash memory:
> • Song Name & Number
> • Realtime note & controller information
> • Track Mutes (these can be recorded in real-time on the linear song track
> and supersede the pattern track mutes)"
> 
> it says here you should be able to use track mutes in song mode in real time
> or in step time.  is the problem that they cannot be on the same tick?
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Matt <somatt@...> wrote:
> 
> > page 61 of manual
> > "Songs can link patterns together to form more complicated arrangements.
> > There is also an additional song track which can be used to record notes,
> > controllers, pattern mutes or any other MIDI data. Songs can be of any
> > length, unlike patterns which are limited to 32 bars."
> > so the song track is the extra track which can't take more than one event
> > in a tick i guess?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011, Matt wrote:
> >>
> >> > regardless, why would you need recorded track mutes if you're doing
> >> > linear sequencing? cant you just delete note events or whatever from
> >> > that time frame you want muted? Seems like there is much less use for
> >> > track mutes when things aren't looping.
> >> ===============
> >>
> >> 1) if the mutes don't work out as planned/desired, it's much easier to
> >> unmute than it is to replace notes.
> >>
> >> 2) AFAICT, you can't "just" delete notes in song mode; that would have to
> >> be edited in the pattern/loop.
> >>
> >> 3) it *might* be possible to insert CC7 events and use MIDI volume control
> >>
> >> to "mute" tracks in song mode (i haven't tried this yet) but it would be a
> >>
> >> PITA to unmute tracks when the volumes are not all set to 127.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ...atom
> >>
> >> ________________________
> >> http://atom.smasher.org/
> >> 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> >> -------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> "Never have the armies of the North brought peace,
> >> prosperity, or democracy to the peoples of Asia,
> >> Africa, or Latin America. In the future, as in the
> >> past five centuries, they can only bring to these
> >> peoples further servitude, the exploitation of their
> >> labor, the expropriation of their riches, and the denial
> >> of their rights. It is of the utmost importance that the
> >> progressive forces of the West understand this."
> >> -- Samir Amin,
> >> director of Forum du Tiers Monde in Dakar, Senegal
> >>
> >>  
> >>
> >
> >
>

Re: [xl7] Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-26 by Atom Smasher

On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, dutchbeats wrote:

> if you have a mute at .146 and another at .147, changing the first one 
> to .147 will write over the second one. might be a good way to erase a 
> bunch of mutes though, scroll the time field while on one mute event.
========

i'm pretty sure it's not even good for that.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"Like many big companies, Microsoft wins by dominating
 	 distribution channels, not by having better products.
 	 Having a technical edge over competitors is not
 	 critical to their business."
 		-- Paul Graham

Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-26 by dutchbeats

lol



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, dutchbeats wrote:
> 
> > if you have a mute at .146 and another at .147, changing the first one 
> > to .147 will write over the second one. might be a good way to erase a 
> > bunch of mutes though, scroll the time field while on one mute event.
> ========
> 
> i'm pretty sure it's not even good for that.
> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"Like many big companies, Microsoft wins by dominating
>  	 distribution channels, not by having better products.
>  	 Having a technical edge over competitors is not
>  	 critical to their business."
>  		-- Paul Graham
>

Re: [xl7] Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-30 by Matt

So what's the consensus? Also why can't you implement your track mutes as a pattern?

Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mar 25, 2011 10:25 PM, "dutchbeats" <dutchbeats@...> wrote:

lol



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher wrote:
>

> On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, dutchbeats wrote:
>
> > if you have a mute at .146 and another at .147, chan...

Re: event: mute (song mode)

2011-03-31 by dutchbeats

no consensus is a good consensus i guess(!) which means my xl7 needs
repair or replacing. i revived a cs thread at futureproducers so
hopefully someone can confirm or disprove the song mode bugs. using
another sequencer to play my mutes into should be simple though, since
as far as i know it can't be done solely in pattern mode. then play the
sequence back into the cs while in pattern mode. either way i'm hooked
on the mute buttons :) this is my first time posting from my cel btw.
cool...