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A challenge, a patch, a question...

A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-26 by Bruno

Hi guys,

Today I played a bit with my P2K with the idea of creating an
arpeggiated patch, that would "divide" some notes into smaller
rhythmical values. It's typical Tangerine Dream effect and is quite
easy to emulate with software sequencer, however I wanted to get a
patch that would do this.

To explain it a bit: let's say I play C1, G1, Bb1 and D2 notes, I set
arp to 1/16 and "forward assign" and I would like to hear two 1/32 for
D2 (instead of 1/16).

So I thought it would be a nice idea to retrigger the amplitude
envelope - and then I wanted to do this for filter envelope as well. I
thought about doing this from LFO. I ended up using 25% pulse through
FlipFlop sent to AEnvTrig.

Well, what I got is rather kind of MIDI delay - also very TDish
effect. The original problem is still open and I will try to attack it
soon. If you are interested in the SysEx for the current sound, I can
grab it and send it.

But, during those edits I discovered two strange and not very nice things:
 1) Under 2.26 OS I don't seem to have FEnvTrig as a patchcord
dimension - it should be there, at least according to my printed
manual. Is your experience the same?
 2) Try setting a patch with arpeggiator settings like this:
   - status: on
   - mode: anything but random or pattern
   - extension count: 1
   - extension interval: 12

Now when you play a single note, you should hear it jumping in one
octave interval. Save the patch. Change it to the next/previous one
and go back. Play a single note. Apparently extension interval got
reset. Get into the edit mode and check the settings: 12. Adjust it to
13 and back to 12. Now it works.

And I used to say that I prefer the hardware synths, because the soft
ones are buggy...

Cheers, Bruno

Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-26 by James Ulibarri

Wow, awesome information. Great job.
There are some great arpeggios in the new Tron movie.  Anyone else hear them?
But I highly doubt they used an Oberheim like they did on the original movie.
Bruno, is your tips kinda like what the Polymorph could do? Sounds like it.





On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Bruno <brunorc@...> wrote:
 

Hi guys,

Today I played a bit with my P2K with the idea of creating an
arpeggiated patch, that would "divide" some notes into smaller
rhythmical values. It's typical Tangerine Dream effect and is quite
easy to emulate with software sequencer, however I wanted to get a
patch that would do this.

To explain it a bit: let's say I play C1, G1, Bb1 and D2 notes, I set
arp to 1/16 and "forward assign" and I would like to hear two 1/32 for
D2 (instead of 1/16).

So I thought it would be a nice idea to retrigger the amplitude
envelope - and then I wanted to do this for filter envelope as well. I
thought about doing this from LFO. I ended up using 25% pulse through
FlipFlop sent to AEnvTrig.

Well, what I got is rather kind of MIDI delay - also very TDish
effect. The original problem is still open and I will try to attack it
soon. If you are interested in the SysEx for the current sound, I can
grab it and send it.

But, during those edits I discovered two strange and not very nice things:
 1) Under 2.26 OS I don't seem to have FEnvTrig as a patchcord
dimension - it should be there, at least according to my printed
manual. Is your experience the same?
 2) Try setting a patch with arpeggiator settings like this:
   - status: on
   - mode: anything but random or pattern
   - extension count: 1
   - extension interval: 12

Now when you play a single note, you should hear it jumping in one
octave interval. Save the patch. Change it to the next/previous one
and go back. Play a single note. Apparently extension interval got
reset. Get into the edit mode and check the settings: 12. Adjust it to
13 and back to 12. Now it works.

And I used to say that I prefer the hardware synths, because the soft
ones are buggy...

Cheers, Bruno


Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-26 by Bruno

Hi James,

2010/12/26 James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@...>
> Wow, awesome information. Great job.
> There are some great arpeggios in the new Tron movie.  Anyone else hear them?

Not yet...

> But I highly doubt they used an Oberheim like they did on the original movie.

I was able to got some very Tronish (and dronish sounds) from Yamaha SY77 :-)

> Bruno, is your tips kinda like what the Polymorph could do? Sounds like it.

Hard to say, never had Polymorph - not that I wouldn't like, you know
;-)  I will work with the patch, to make it behave a bit more that I
expect (and then maybe post). Right now the sound is a bit too harsh,
but I was more into arpeggiator features, than the sound itself.

Thanks for the feedback,
Bruno

Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-27 by Atom Smasher

On Sun, 26 Dec 2010, Bruno wrote:

> To explain it a bit: let's say I play C1, G1, Bb1 and D2 notes, I set 
> arp to 1/16 and "forward assign" and I would like to hear two 1/32 for 
> D2 (instead of 1/16).
==========================

program it as a user arp pattern. then just press C1 and enjoy. or....


> So I thought it would be a nice idea to retrigger the amplitude envelope 
> - and then I wanted to do this for filter envelope as well. I thought 
> about doing this from LFO. I ended up using 25% pulse through FlipFlop 
> sent to AEnvTrig.
====================

that gives me another idea... retriggering will have mixed results 
depending on the "instrument" (aka "sample") and mixed results in any 
case, but you may be able to do this... if your patch uses one or two 
layers, you can copy it/them to unused layer(s) and set the "delay" 
(bottom of page 216, XL7-OpMan-G.pdf) and set the layer's keyboard range 
to be only D2. this will give you a second trigger of the sound, but only 
when played on D2.


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Re: [p2k] Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-27 by Bruno Kopias-Czekay

�27-12-2010 o godz. 07:20 Atom Smasher <atom@...> napisał(a):

On Sun, 26 Dec 2010, Bruno wrote:

> To explain it a bit: let's say I play C1, G1, Bb1 and D2 notes, I set
> arp to 1/16 and "forward assign" and I would like to hear two 1/32 for
> D2 (instead of 1/16).
==========================

program it as a user arp pattern. then just press C1 and enjoy. or....

That was only an example :) generally I would like to have the fourth note divided. So the structure of the chord is not determined.


> So I thought it would be a nice idea to retrigger the amplitude envelope
> - and then I wanted to do this for filter envelope as well. I thought
> about doing this from LFO. I ended up using 25% pulse through FlipFlop
> sent to AEnvTrig.
====================

that gives me another idea... retriggering will have mixed results
depending on the "instrument" (aka "sample") and mixed results in any

True. But in case of typical synth sounds rettiggering both EGs (amp & filter) usually does the trick.

The only thing I overlooked was the fact that LFO runs from the beginning for every note :) however second LFO can modulate the amount of the first one... Work in progress!

case, but you may be able to do this... if your patch uses one or two
layers, you can copy it/them to unused layer(s) and set the "delay"
(bottom of page 216, XL7-OpMan-G.pdf) and set the layer's keyboard range
to be only D2. this will give you a second trigger of the sound, but only
when played on D2.

Thanks, that sounds interesting. While I'm not interested specifically in D2, I can say that only relatively high-pitch notes should be repeated, so it also solves my problem.

Atom, could you please affirmate or negate the presence of FEnvTrig in your modulation destinations?

Thanks for feedback,
Bruno

Re: [p2k] Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-27 by Atom Smasher

you may not have seen this, so i'll mention it here - 
http://smasher.org/tmp/xl7-tricks.txt


On Mon, 27 Dec 2010, Bruno Kopias-Czekay wrote:

> That was only an example :) generally I would like to have the fourth 
> note divided. So the structure of the chord is not determined.
<<snip>>
> Thanks, that sounds interesting. While I'm not interested specifically 
> in D2, I can say that only relatively high-pitch notes should be 
> repeated, so it also solves my problem.
============

then you may be best with the "delay" trick, and a keyboard split to 
enable the layers that double, above the split. although.... if velocity 
isn't important to the way a patch is played (or can be simulated with a 
pedal or knob) then you could use velocity to "switch" in the notes that 
get doubled.

for more unusual effects, i think you can also use the cords to create a 
velocity switch that re-triggers or enables an LFO, switches between 
slow/fast LFO, un/mutes a layer, etc. but based on what i think you're 
after, i'd start with a delayed layer switched by velocity.


> Atom, could you please affirmate or negate the presence of FEnvTrig in 
> your modulation destinations?
==============

i'm powered down for the night, but from memory i'm pretty sure it's there 
on the XL7 v2.0.


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         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

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 	 they cannot win and their participants know it. Hence,
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Re: [p2k] Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-27 by Atom Smasher

i just had to test out the velocity -> double arpeggio thing... awesome!!! 
using "Fwd Assign" i can just press a key harder than normal to have it 
"double" when it's played.


On Mon, 27 Dec 2010, Bruno Kopias-Czekay wrote:

> Atom, could you please affirmate or negate the presence of FEnvTrig in 
> your modulation destinations?
===================

my memory has failed. it's missing :(

now that i think about it, i think i've only tried to use it once, didn't 
think too much about not being able to find it, and used the aux envelope 
routed to the filter (with cords), re-triggering with AEnvTrig. it's 
partially documented in "crazy shuffles" - 
http://smasher.org/tmp/xl7-tricks.txt - i guess i didn't quite realize at 
the time that the FEnvTrig is missing.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

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 	 thousand gallons of fresh water, a few acres of grass,
 	 a few fish, a quarter acre of corn etc. What's the
 	 point of taking a shorter shower to conserve water as
 	 Greenpeace is preaching if you can sit down and
 	 consume a 1000 gallons of water at a single meal? And
 	 that single cut of meat would have cost as much in
 	 vegetable resources equivalent to what could be fed to
 	 an entire African village for a week."
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Re: [p2k] Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-27 by Bruno

2010/12/27 Atom Smasher <atom@...>:
> i just had to test out the velocity -> double arpeggio thing... awesome!!!

Glad you like it :-) Could you please share cords/LFO settings?

> using "Fwd Assign" i can just press a key harder than normal to have it
> "double" when it's played.

Argh... must... do the work... first...

>> Atom, could you please affirmate or negate the presence of FEnvTrig in
>> your modulation destinations?
> ===================
>
> my memory has failed. it's missing :(

I wonder when it disappeared. I know there are people with pre-2.0
OSes in their P2Ks, could anyone of you confirm, please?

> now that i think about it, i think i've only tried to use it once, didn't
> think too much about not being able to find it, and used the aux envelope
> routed to the filter (with cords), re-triggering with AEnvTrig. it's
> partially documented in "crazy shuffles" -
> http://smasher.org/tmp/xl7-tricks.txt - i guess i didn't quite realize at
> the time that the FEnvTrig is missing.

Did the same, but would be nice to have the possibility to retrigger
FEnv as well. Or maybe it was a misprint in the manual? I checked the
Orbit manual as well (as it's one of the "2.0 when baked") - it's
there. Same for XL7. I wonder if it's the "display issue", in other
words - what happens, if one sets the Destination to 86 (FEnvTrig,
according to 2.2 SysEx documentation).

Cheers,
Bruno

Re: [p2k] Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-27 by Atom Smasher

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010, Bruno wrote:

>> i just had to test out the velocity -> double arpeggio thing... 
>> awesome!!!
>
> Glad you like it :-) Could you please share cords/LFO settings?
================

i just shut it down before checking my email. i'll post it in the near 
future. i may also have a new shuffle trick for one-off samples.


> Did the same, but would be nice to have the possibility to retrigger 
> FEnv as well. Or maybe it was a misprint in the manual? I checked the 
> Orbit manual as well (as it's one of the "2.0 when baked") - it's there.
================

there's a lot of copy-n-paste in those manuals and there are a few places 
where the mistakes and typos got pasted into all flavors of the manual.


> Same for XL7. I wonder if it's the "display issue", in other words - 
> what happens, if one sets the Destination to 86 (FEnvTrig, according to 
> 2.2 SysEx documentation).
=================

very good question....


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
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 		18 Dec 2000 CNN.com

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[p2k] Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-28 by steve_the_composer

This is a great thread! I am looking forward to trying these techniques. 
Steve

Re: [xl7] A challenge, a patch, a question...

2010-12-29 by Atom Smasher

On Sun, 26 Dec 2010, Bruno wrote:

> To explain it a bit: let's say I play C1, G1, Bb1 and D2 notes, I set 
> arp to 1/16 and "forward assign" and I would like to hear two 1/32 for 
> D2 (instead of 1/16).
===================

here's how to do it the easy way (as tested on my XL7)...

start with a patch that works well with "forward assign" arpeggio and only 
uses layer 1 (you can use two layers, but let's start with something 
simple to see how it's done).

make sure these parameters are set in "preset edit":
     arp
 	status:	on
 	fwd assign
 	note:	1/16
 	vel:	played
 	gate:	100%
 	ext cnt:	0
 	ext int:	1
 	sync:	key
 	pre delay:	off
 	duration:	off
 	post delay:	off
 	recycle:	off
 	kbd thru:	off
 	latch:	off
 	key range:	C-2 -> G8 (all keys)

most of those should either already be set like that or not be critical.

now copy layer one to layer two and make these edits ONLY to layer two:
 	delay:	1/32 (same screen as "start")
 	range:	velo; lo=120, fade=0; high=127; fade=0

that ~should~ be it. now any key played with a velocity higher than 120 
will "double" when played by the arp. adjust that threshold according to 
your controller and playing style.

if anyone comes up with any variations based on this, please let us know!

here's some ideas...
  * use different filter settings on layer 2
  * use a different sample ("instrument") on layer 2
  * use layer 3 (and 4!) with different delays and/or different thresholds


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Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-18 by smw-mail@...

Over the past 2 days I have continued exploring the potential for arps (families of arp presets).  This time I revisited  extension count and extension interval--which I haven't done anything with in ages. I stumbled onto a problem and rather than just ask, I decided to search the archives.

So, I am posting a link to a thread (1) in case others are interested in what has been described here and (2) in case anyone knows of a solution or workaround for the issue that led me to look. (I found this on a P2K box under OS 2.26. Not sure if CS OS 2.0 has the same issue. That's on my list to check.)

Basically, the extension interval (I am using 12) resets to 1 when I recall a stored preset--whether it is recalled (1) by dialing another preset then coming back to it on the basic channel or (2) by starting the same preset on another channel.

It is almost as if the extension interval from the preset either (1) doesn't get recalled properly or (2) is reset by something else--perhaps in the preset or the system configuration.  In any case, so far I need to change the extension interval  back to 12 in preset edit each time. 

I looked at layer and global patchcords to see if there was something there causing the interval to be reset to 1.  Nope.  I changed from random to pattern--both user arp and rom arp. Nope.  I changed the ROM Instrument. Nope.  I have a few more things to try, but when I found this nine-year old thread, I thought I'd take a break and just post this in case any one is interested.

BTW, the family-of-presets plan is to follow up with (1) initial controller amounts set to off and (2) unique preset prefix names (if I can find a work around or the extension interval issue), so that presets within the family can be manually changed on the fly.

Steve

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/xl7/conversations/topics/21077

[snip]

> But, during those edits I discovered two strange and not very nice things:
> 1) Under 2.26 OS I don't seem to have FEnvTrig as a patchcord
> dimension - it should be there, at least according to my printed
> manual. Is your experience the same?
> 2) Try setting a patch with arpeggiator settings like this:
>   - status: on
>   - mode: anything but random or pattern
>   - extension count: 1
>   - extension interval: 12

[snip]

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-20 by smw-mail@...

Some footnotes:
(1) Re: the Extension Interval bug
---- After extensive testing, I concluded (at least until I discover otherwise):
-------> The Extension Interval is correctly saved when a preset is saves.
-------> The Extension Interval is not correctly restored when a preset dialed up.
-------> The actual Extension Interval is inherited from the previously loaded preset.
---- This issues has been discussed in the P2K group.
-------> If you want to real all the threads and posts, search for "Extension Interval"
-------> Or, read this: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/p2k/conversations/messages/14998
---------- I basically confirmed what Bruno discovered--inheritance problem and one work around.
-------> A variant of Bruno's work around:

Bruno suggests having preset pairs and switching from one Ext Int preset with the desired value (= 12 for example) to another. Evidently this work around also works by recalling the one preset via midi twice (based on tests with a keyboard that can send Program Changes. 

---- One of the Command Station Addendums says this bug was fixed on the CS/P2500. I will test that.

(2) Re: The missing FEnvTrig patchcord destination
---- Its missing in the display of both the 1 ru E-mu and the P2500
---- As a followup to the "maybe it can be done via sysex parameter change" comment:
------> At some point, I would like to test for that as well as other destination numbers.



Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-20 by smw-mail@...

Thanks for chiming in on this, Bruno!  I was thinking of you as I read the P2K threads on this last night.

Funny how the "new and improved" workaround came about.  After a fair amount of testing I decided to put some test patches in the 000^0 to 009^0 range because my evolution keyboard has buttons 0 -> 9 which send out Program Changes. 

One dummy preset (non-sounding) is Syn:ExtInt=02 (Button 8), another is Syn:ExtInt=12 (Button 9). So after bouncing bank and forth between these and 3 presets with different Intervals stored (Buttons 0->3), for some reason I just hit Button 0 (000^0 has the preset where the Interval set to 12) and it worked!!!!!  :-)

Yes, well worth finding the workaround--even 9 years later.  Since the keyboard just sends out midi data, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work from any source (hardware or software).

---------------

Command Station 2.0 Addendum, page 20:

• Arp Extension Interval Bug Fixed - When switching presets, arp extension interval is now correctly loaded.

In the back of my mind over the past day or two, I seemed to remember something official about the issue being fixed and there it was!!!

This morning, I tested my P2500.  The arp extension interval did indeed load correctly. Evidently the fix did not make it into OS 2.26 for the P2K variants.

---------------

Regarding the possibility of hidden patchcord destinations and the potential to access any that might be there via sysex, your questions are excellent.

> Now there are only two questions:
>  a) does it actually work?
> b) how it is being represented on the Edit Preset screen?

Based on my method for mining the hidden (and known) Remote Control sysex commands, I have been thinking of testing ALL possible destinations.

Toward that end, I will be making a spreadsheet with the destinations from the E-Mu X Softsynths and all the published values from the sysex manual to systematically test and track the results.  A few months ago, I started a spreadsheet with all the published sysex parameters with the goal of correcting the manual systematically. (I already had some corrections on my paper printout from years ago!)

The sysex parameter spreadsheet has the old and new notes plus, I have cut-and-paste sysex!!  So, I can just put it into midi-ox, send it, see what happens, change test values, and repeat until my mind can't take any more!!!

I mention this in case you will be getting out your sysex PC and are interested in testing a range of parameters.  If so, PM me; I can put the spreadsheet on my website and give you access to it.

Two other things: (1) let me know if you come up with different results re: Arp Ext Interval on the CS, and (2) since I am planning to do more with arps starting in a couple of week, I would be interested in knowing more of what others are already doing with arps.  I was already planning to look though already "published" ideas (websites, manuals, previous Tricks and Tips done by rEalm, etc. and was wondering if there are other ideas people use that couple be compiled into a new Tips & Tricks.

BTW:
 -- page 68 of the sysex manual also has destination 51: 'Chorus Position ITD. The X series has that!!!!
 -- I have a handwritten note I did some time, "76 = VEnvSus"
 -- the X softsynths have a realtime resonance destination, not available to hardware users; but:
 ---- I recall rEalm saying something to the effect that the realtime resonance [in the hardware] was cool and he would liked to have seen it in the released version of the OS upgrade. 

Oh how I wish someone would make a sampling Command Station Ultra that all the features of the X series softsynths--compatible (of course) with both EOS/EIV Ultra Samplers and the P2K/CS ROMplers--but with 21st century improvements (including full remote control that works with MIDI 1.0 and MIDI 2.0).

For what its worth, here are the layer-level patchcord destinations from the softsynths:

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-21 by smw-mail@...

Thanks for mentioning these tools, Royce!

I know I looked at Mark's site before--a few years ago (2013) I think when you were telling me about the BCR/BCF and his resources for those. Evidently, I was more interested in his Music Cognition thesis than the MIDITools as I seem to have unzipped the thesis (and read through it) but not installed his software!

I was doing my Arduino stuff around 2012, so was probably talking about my massive arduino-based midi controller.

It looks like I was done mapping the E-Mu sysex bank data file structures (P2K/CS/Audity formats). It looks like my interest in mining E-Mu's Remote Control goes back to 2009. So by 2012 I probably had no interest in starting another mining adventure!! (Been there, done that; time to move onto something different!)

And by the time I started exploring the potential for using web browsers for internet-based sysex stuff (probably circa 2014-2016), I had forgotten about Mark's software. Also, I must have figured I had mined enough hidden stuff to move on to other adventures--i.e., trying to implement E-Mu's Remote Control via web browsers.

When this thing about the missing FEnvTrig source turned up, for me it was PURELY secondary (or tertiary) to developing arps-based presets for my own personal music-making (and possibly sharing tricks/tips about arps) and the Extension Interval bug.

Nevertheless, I will certainly download the newest version of Mark's MIDITools--and will unpack/install it this time as it seems to be a time saver for even quickie sysex explorations.  Who knows--I >>might<< want to tackle a longer sysex mining adventure!  

===============================

The new addition to your software also looks quite handy.  I will take a look at that, too.

===============================

On a related note, a couple of weeks ago, I FINALLY test drove your E-Mu Librarian.  Not sure I mentioned this, but it is quite nice (although I barely touched the surface of its potential just using it to back up some banks on a new-to-me P2K with a non-wonky main encoder).

In fact (someday), I have on my to-do list exporting all my saved (i.e., years-and-years of) E-Mu syx banks from Cakewalk project files to import and reorganize them (prune, reorder, notate, etc.) using your Librarian.  It looks like an excellent tool for this kind of reorganization project--and probably other uses I will undoubtedly find along the way.

KUDOS to you for the E-Mu Librarian!!! (Apologies if I didn't mention this before.)

Also, I used Ray's OS Updater to effortlessly update the non-wonky-encoder P2K OS (1.23, I think) to OS 2.26.  (In fact I captured the on-screen process in OBS.)

----------------------
Tangent: Display Brightness:

One final thing which you or someone else might have thoughts on. It is about the problem of hard-to-read displays an relates to the new-to-me P2K. 

Years ago, I replaced a display and discovered that the brightness (not angle!) seemed to be more a function of the E-Mu mobo or PSU than the display itself.  I believe I confirmed this a week or so ago when I replaced the defective display in the new-to-me unit with the display from the old-to-me V2K with very wonky encoder:

The much dimmer display from the V2K was considerably brighter when put into the new-to-me P2K. 

Likewise, the brighter-but-slightly-defective P2K display was considerably dimmer when put into the V2K box!!!!!  Ergo, I have concluded that something about the mobo or psu affects display brightness.

I haven't seen anyone else mention anything like this before (though maybe I missed it).  I'd be interested to know others' thoughts/experiences/etc.

----------------------
Non-ROM E-Mus as Arpeggiators (with possibly up to 32-channel midi arpeggiation):

As for how this relates to the original topic--developing arps and the tertiary sysex topic:

The V2K-with-the-very-wonky-encoder-and-slightly-defective-display (and no ROMS) is in the process of being set up as an arpeggiator for external modules (probably non-E-Mu modules because the 32 arps the E-Mus have is really more than enough!) and as a test unit for being remotely controlled--probably with (1) an arduino-based controller (with sliders!) and/or (2) web-based tools.

I will probably find uses for Mark's and Royce's tools with the V2K-as-arpeggiator-repurposing project. I imagine designing arp presets (and user arp pattrerns) on an E-Mu with ROMs before converting them for use in the not-so-standalone V2K Arpeggiator.  For managing and transferring !RP:xxxxxxxx presets, I think the Librarian would be ideal.

So, thanks for mentioning the tools, Royce.   

--Steve

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-23 by rpcfender@...

I should have mentioned that, I as I recall, the encoder is a Bourne's PEC16 range. 
Probably a PEC16-2220F-N0024

PEC16 encoder type
-2 = vertical mount with pins going down into the PCB
2 = 24 detents
20 = 20mm length (it could be a 15, you might need to mention)
F = shaft style
N = no built in push switch 
0024 = number of pulses per 360deg.
Mouser, Digikey or RS all have them.

In my cheap way, I have sprayed contact cleaner down the shaft so it weeps between the screw threaded casting and the shaft into the encoder.
A few turns and it was OK for quite a while.
I have also carefully opened one up and cleaned it when the above didn't work so well.

They are the longest lasting encoder that Bourne makes as far as I know but a only cost a few dollars.

Replace yours today and brighten your display.

Royce

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-23 by D F Tweedie

Pardon the slightly off topic request ...

Where can I find a link to Royce's E-Mu Librarian Steve mentioned?

I googled without success.

Thanks.

DF

On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 12:39:04 PM PDT, Ray Bellis ray@... [xl7] wrote:


The right part is either a �TT Electronics / BI EN16-H22AF15-ND or Bourns PEC16-4215F-N0024

These also work in the P2000 range.

Ray

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-24 by rpcfender@...

You are right. I should have looked at the drawings on the spec sheet instead of misreading the text.
Thanks for the save Ray.

Royce

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-25 by smw-mail@...

Over the past 2 days I have been teaching myself to use some of the features of Royce's E-Mu Librarian and have been finding it extremely useful so far in  terms of easily and conveniently (1) previewing banks of User and Factory Presets, (2) labeling and annotating the presets (individually and en masse) and (3a) finding my original and tweaked presets from among banks of mixed (factory, original, and tweaked) presets, (3b) labeling reminders of what I was doing in series of test & development presets, and (3c) saving just my own, non-duplicate presets from different banks in a *.LIB [Library] of unique presets.

Even at this early stage in my use of E-Mu Lib, it has been well worth the time spent learning to use it. 

I think I avoided exploring it before now because the GUI had too many buttons visible all at once for me to process. However, in two days I have really come to understand and appreciate how all of the tasks are all in one place--no massive menu hierarchies to get lost in!!!!!!

I have taken screen shots of some processes I used with the intent of sharing those as a step-by-step visual explanation in case it would help others use the tool.  BTW, I prefer to call it a librarian as opposed to an editor, only because I think of editors as patch/preset editors.  E-Mu Lib does allow (brilliantly, IMO) the editing of preset banks.

While various preset/patch editors can be used as bank editors (as opposed to patch editors), having used a number, I really appreciate Royce's software for managing, organizing, pruning, isolating, and re-organizing presets and banks of presets. The learning curve was not too bad once I decided to start using it and the all-on-one-page GUI makes tasks easy to find and duplicate.

Perhaps others will use it and can create small *.LIB files of presets they are willing to share.

Thanks, Royce!!

Steve

PIX:  7 original/tweaked presets using the CMPSR ROM [non-factory presets] pulled from 4 banks of User presets.1

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by rpcfender@...

I don't have a Proteus 2500, but I am led to believe it uses the same sysex as the Command Station.
I do have a XL7 in a MP7 and that is what I tested the Library program on.

Let me know what the Library program thinks the synth is and let me know if there are problems.

Thanks
Royce

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by smw-mail@...

You have a pop-up warning that says the software cannot access banks greater than bank 3 on Command Stations.  I verified that the software cannot get bank 4 on an XL-7 Version 2 ROM nor banks 4 -> 7 on a CMPSR ROM.  For some reason, it can get the higher banks on the CMPSR ROM from a 1 ru box.

I just took a quick look at the sysex guide and cannot figure out what sysex you might be using that would work on a P2K but  not a CS/P2500. Only LCD-related Requests and Messages seem to be for the P2000 and Audity only--unless your pulling of the info for the basic channel uses that strategy.

Hmmmm.  If that's what the software does, that might explain another warning pop-up I get when I start E-Mu Lib. "You may have an incompatible 'Blank' file." etc.

Neither of these issue would deter me from using and recommending the software.

Evidently on April 12th I used the previous version to get all 4 P2500 User Banks, and combined them into a 512 preset *.LIB file. Tonight, I was able to load that file.  As for Factory Presets, I suppose I could transfer them to a user bank and then get them that way if I wanted to add them to a *.LIB File.

That being said, I already created a CMPSR ROM *.LIB file from a P2K, so if anyone has a CMPSR ROM in a CS/P2500 and really wants banks 4-7, I can make it available.  However, I think Sean@E-Mu's conversion of the 8 CMPSR preset banks for our 16-controller boxes (CS/P2500) would be more functional.

Steve 

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by smw-mail@...

For reasons I won't detail (because I have already written about them), I don't use Prodatum. In short, it has some very good features; however, it had and may still have some issues.  In fact several months ago when I went to Prodatum's bug reporting page, I saw people having issues that seemed very similar to what I had reported and made had suggestions about years ago.

For what its worth, I have had links to both Proteum and Prodatum on my site since I added links.  I have not had the problems with Proteum that I had with Prodatum; however, it is strictly for Windows users, unlike Prodatum.  For Mac and Linux users, so far as I have read, there is no choice.

Nevertheless, I have intentionally chosen to let people know about both editors. I think both have their own advantages. If a tool works for someone, great!








Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by rpcfender@...

Hi Steve,

this problem occurred with the direct access to the ROM data above bank 3 - which was the normal way I accessed the data (perhaps not part of E-mu testing)

So I added a second method to access these patches (or any ROM Bank patches).
There is a radio box  two thirds down, to the left of the patch list called "Method" .

The options are how the program requests the patches, either directly from the ROM or calling each of the ROM's patches into the synth's edit buffer and then getting the edit buffer (doesn't take much longer to do).

Let me know if you work out another way to directly get the extended banks from ROM so I can add it to EmuLib.

All the best
Royce.

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by smw-mail@...

Thanks for the tip about the radio buttons for the different access methods. I saw them but didn't try the one that was selected by default. I will check that out next time I am doing music stuff.

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by rpcfender@...

EmuLib

I have added code to switch to the "Direct ROM" access method when the Bank is 0,1,2,3.
Otherwise it uses the "Edit Buffer" method for higher ROM banks.

New version is on my web site. 
Just copy "EmuLib.exe" from the zip file over the old version on your hard drive.

Royce

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by smw-mail@...

Ahhhh.  If will give this a try tomorrow. 

BTW, instead of "Unknown" for Flash ROMs, can you access the name? or maybe use the numerical ID [aka MSB]?

Not critical, just wondering as long as you seem to be doing tweaks to the code.

Thanks.

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by rpcfender@...

 
Any corrections or additions to this list of ROMs and ROM numbers?

 0 = "User"
 2 = "XTREM"
 3 = "Audity"
 4 = "Composer"
 5 = "Protozoa"
 6 = "B3"
 7 = "XL-1"
 8 = "ZR-76"
 9 = "World Exp."
10 = "Orch 1"
11 = "Orch 2"
13 = "PurePhatt"
15 = "Mo'Phatt"
14 = "XL-2"
16 = "Ensoniq"
17 =  "PROM1"
18 = "Vintage"
19 = "Drum";
64 = "Holy Grail"
65 = "TSCY"
66 = "Siedlaczek"
67 = "Beat"

Steve, this has been added to the code
default = "Id # " + SimID

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by smw-mail@...

I am balancing doing studio setup/refinements and outdoor/yard work (it is beautiful!). So:

Re: ID numbers/names: some numbers are reused; e.g. 17 is the MSB for the P2500 Composer ROM. Not sure where the name is stored--could be SIMM, could be OS checks something other than MSB.  For my software, I used a lookup array based on MSB.  Maybe someone else knows hows the OS does it. I don't see anything in the Hardware Configuration Request that directly gets at the version .  I believe all MSB 17 have the same number of Simm Instruments. Other stuff is different. Maybe the OS gets the SIMM checksum and looks up the nsame from there, if its not on the SIMM.  Maybe its in baby flash? P2500 Preset 127^3 is   :default V1.0, so I doubt that provides SIMM identification. Maybe there's an undocumented sysex. Ages ago I discovered two for the Generic Name Request (7 = pattern, 8 = song) and why 3 = (arp)--in parentheses, but if there's a request sub-code for ROM Name [e..g. object type], I didn't find it!

I tried getting upper ROM banks with the non-direct method [through edit memory, IIRC]--it worked, so I didn't try your latest version--yet.

Thanks for ROM ID name for Flash SIMMs.

Using the E-Mu Librarian has really inspired to shift into productivity mode with an mind for doing multi-tracking.  I think its been over a decade since I setup Cakewalk *.ins files so I can use those to select and keep preset/patch names in a DAW; but with E-Mu Lib, I am envisioning (1) finding presets I have long wanted to return to [updated versions of my tunes], (2) pruning and reorganizing them and integrating them into banks with new presets I have been working on [based on new performance modalities I probably have mentioned somewhere], (3) finding my last SONAR Master ins file and (4) reconstructing a new one based on the results of (1) and (2).

Again, thanks for the tool and your willingness to make tweaks and explain how to do things with it!!!

Steve

   

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by smw-mail@...

Addendum to what I said about MSB = 17 SIMMS (P2500, PROM, etc.):
Earlier this year I picked up an MSB = 15 SIMM.  It shows ups as "MP-7" in my P2500, OS 2.0.  Proteum's  lookup array yields "MK-6."

The Protozoa SIMM (MSB = 5) shows up as "P/123" in 1 ru boxes.

Years ago I tried making a table of ROM/SIMM resources (number of ROM Instruments, Arps, Riffs, BTS Riffs, etc. with columns for both the common make and the name as it appears in the display.  I added what I had and what others posted about when I ran across the info.

Since then, I have compiled tables that list some of the resources (as published, and corrected, if I had info to make the corrections).

From the several comparisons I have made, I believe (without looking it up) with each new version of SIMMs with the same ROM IDs/MSBs (as well as with different ones) additional riffs were added.  I'm not 100% sure about this as I don't have every version of every ROM (not even close!)  But if I am correct, the last riff (or maybe the number of riffs) might be useful as a ROM NAME Identifier, if it cannot be pulled another way.

OK--the clear, sunny out-of-doors is calling me to come outside and do some more yard work!!!
 :-)
   

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by smw-mail@...

As far as I have seen, you are absolutely correct: "Preset ROM ID number" in the manual refers to a two-byte number with the MSB as the ROM Identifier and the LSB as the bank number.  When I press audition, I tend to automatically think of the MSB as the ROM ID and LSB as the bank number--just an eye to mind short-cut when doing hands on stuff.  When doing anything with sysex, I think of ROM ID as LSB MSB, not SIMM + Bank.

Thanks for catching me on that!

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by Ray Bellis

On 26/05/2019 20:25, smw-mail@... [xl7] wrote:

> Maybe the OS gets the SIMM checksum and looks up the nsame from
> there, if its not on the SIMM.  Maybe its in baby flash?

The ROM name is in the baby flash, offset 0x40 - 0x44.  The SIMM 
checksum is also there (offset 0x00 - 0x03) and the ROM number is at 
offset 0x2f.

Here are the numbers and identifiers that I've extracted from both my 
own ROM dumps, and from the baby flash dumps that are in the Proteus 
group archive.   Note that there *are* some duplicate numbers:

   4 CMPSR
   5 P/123
   6 B-3
   7 XLEAD
   8 QROM   ZR
   9 World
  10 ORCH1
  11 ORCH2
  13 PHATT
  14 XL-7   XROM
  15 MP-7   MROM
  16 SONIQ
  17 PROM1
  18 VROM
  19 DRUM
  64 GRAIL
  65 TeCnO
  66 AOrch
  67 BEAT

User SIMMs are identified with 106 - 119 and "FLASH" in the ROM name.

I didn't quite yet figure out how the CRC32 is calculated so that it can 
compare the value, although I'm still working on it.

I did however discover today that the O/S has a hard limit of 2MB of 
baby flash - it'll report "Invalid" if you perform a ROM check on a ROM 
larger than that.

(technically you can install a larger chip there, but the O/S won't use 
more than 2MB of it).

I also found that the CRC check routine appears to ignore User SIMMs, so 
it's perhaps not necessary to even bother filling that in on those, 
which would be a bonus!

Ray

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by smw-mail@...

Thanks for chiming in with some excellent insights, Ray.

For what its worth, I found a version of the table of ROM resources I mentioned from 2012. I probably updated it since then on an XP PC.  It might be on one of the pre-SATA drives that was in there.  I will look using a back-up XP.

It makes sense that the OS doesn't calculate CRC for Flash ROMs; every one is potentially different, so there is no way to confirm that it matches what it "should" be. Mine shows up as UserSIMM.  As for the display name,  they can be renamed and given a new ID from 106 to 119 (per the Sound Authoring guide) in a P2K, CS, or P2500.

> User SIMMs are identified with 106 - 119 and "FLASH" in the ROM name."

I'm guessing that if I re-named one, when the baby flash is updated, the name I specified would be in there (as opposed to "FLASH".  I mention this because if so, it is safer to identify a Flash ROM by the number (106-119) than the name.

Excellent E-Mu mining!!!!

Steve







ID Common Name Display Banks ROM Arps Riffs BTS Factory CRC Name (#) Instruments (#) (#) Riffs Presets
0 User


1 x 100 0 0

2 Extreme







3 Audity







4 Composer, P2000, P2K CMPSR 8 0000 -> 1173 not instld 368 0 12 controller 5b996906 5 Protozoa P/123 4 0001 -> 0404 not instld 401 0 12 controller bda94458 6 Definitive B-3 B-3 3





7 X-Lead, XL-1 1.4 XLEAD 4 0001 -> 1210 3 x 100 168 55 12 controller a0ff6671 8 Sounds of the ZR







9 World Expedition







10 Orch. Sess. Vol. 1 ORCH1 4





11 Orch. Sess. Vol. 2 ORCH2 4





13 Pure Phatt







14 X-Lead V.2 XROM 5 0001 -> 1210


16 controller bbfb0ddc 14 XL-7 XL-7 4





15 MP-7 MP-7 4





16 Ensoniq Project







17 Composer, P2500 P2500 4 0000 -> 1173


16 Controller 94d8975b 18 Vintage Collection VROM 4





19 Protean Drums DRUM 4

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-05-26 by smw-mail@...

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!

Maybe my partially trashed P2500 SIMM can become usable in a P2500/CS again one of these years!  :-).

Maybe even with new, improved presets of my own making!!!

And who knows, maybe even with new arp patterns and BTS riffs instead of the Demo Tunes! Yeah--I know--if it happens, great; if not, so be it.

Steve

> I finally cracked this :)

> The "standard" CRC32 algorithm inverts the bits of the initial seed
> value (0 -> 0xffffffff) and then also inverts the bits of the result.
> The CRC32 routine in the Proteus O/S does neither.

> I now have Perl code that can verify that the data in baby flash
> actually does match the checksum written in its header :)

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-06-05 by Ryan Cameron

Sorry to bump this thread after the fact, but I am in agreement with DF.  While reading all these posts I could help but think with every email that is would be amazing if somebody could do similar work with the Yamaha RS-7000.

I thought I was decently versed in SysEx until I read some of the stuff coming through on this chain.  Kudos, people.

Deepwhy

On Sun, May 26, 2019, 21:32 D F Tweedie bienpegaito@...m [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Steve, Royce, Ray & Bruno ...

You have no idea how in awe you guys are in the eyes of a non-techie user that can barely comprehend a sysex dump!

It's a privilege to watch you guys arm-wrestle with E-Mu.

What a shame someone hasn't bought the rights to the Emulator X3 software from the bozos at Creative.

DF

On Sunday, May 26, 2019, 3:14:30 PM PDT, smw-mail@... [xl7] <xl7@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!

Maybe my partially trashed P2500 SIMM can become usable in a P2500/CS again one of these years!  :-).

Maybe even with new, improved presets of my own making!!!

And who knows, maybe even with new arp patterns and BTS riffs instead of the Demo Tunes! Yeah--I know--if it happens, great; if not, so be it.

Steve

> I finally cracked this :)

> The "standard" CRC32 algorithm inverts the bits of the initial seed
> value (0 -> 0xffffffff) and then also inverts the bits of the result.
> The CRC32 routine in the Proteus O/S does neither.

> I now have Perl code that can verify that the data in baby flash
> actually does match the checksum written in its header :)

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-06-06 by smw-mail@...

> I thought I was decently versed in SysEx until I read some of the stuff coming through on this chain.

Footnote:

Over the past 2 days I have been mining my Cakewalk/Sonar files from 15 + years to pull out all the preset banks and presets I had stored in them (as well as finding old tunes and drafts of ides for tunes for updating and E-Mu MultiSetups).  The goal is to reorganize them using Royce's E-Mu Librarian (which--in case its not clear--I recommend!).

In the process I found a number of my Remote Control sysex tests.  I am not sure if anyone else uses E-Mu's Remote Control Sysex (maybe its hidden in some one the E-Mu software out there), but I still think there is much untapped potential from everyday user.  It's easy, if anyone is interested:

1. Open a Remote Control Session.
2. Simulate front panel button presses/releases and knob turns.
3. Close the Remote Control Session.

I hope MIDI 2.0 doesn't interfere with the lesser known features of our beloved E-Mus.

Steve

Re: [xl7] Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-06-06 by Ray Bellis

On 06/06/2019 16:46, smw-mail@... [xl7] wrote:

> In the process I found a number of my Remote Control sysex tests.� I am 
> not sure if anyone else uses E-Mu's Remote Control Sysex (maybe its 
> hidden in some one the E-Mu software out there), but I still think there 
> is much untapped potential from everyday user.� It's easy, if anyone is 
> interested:
> 
> 1. Open a Remote Control Session.
> 2. Simulate front panel button presses/releases and knob turns.
> 3. Close the Remote Control Session.
> 
> I hope MIDI 2.0 doesn't interfere with the lesser known features of our 
> beloved E-Mus.

I'm in the middle of an implementation of the E4 version of this that 
should be live on my emu.tools site some time in the next week or so.

Once that's done I plan to look at the Proteus version.

Ray

Re: A challenge, a patch, a question...

2019-10-27 by smw-mail@...

These issues sound very familiar.  Not sure if I wrote some things possibly related here or in the P2K thread. I have one day to look for my posts to see if I can find them! So, thanks for the prompt!!!!!

IIRC, I explored the FEnvTrig issue within the past year.  I might not have posted my findings/results.  I think I was communicating with Ray (or someone else) about sysex accessible parameters at the time.  I will look.

As for the issue of interval being reset, I am pretty sure I explored that within the past 6 months. In the back of my mind, I wrote that up--somewhere!!!

I have explored "automatic" presets, but tended to use randomization and riffs.  I have thought about how to introduce multiple triggers within the length of longer notes (if I understand what you want to do with regard to using dividers). It interests me and would be happy to see what you have done so far, and do discuss methods.

I am not sure if after tomorrow we will be able to send e-mails to individuals or just to the entire "list." So, if that's not possible, I can get PM at Gearslutz and Encyclotronic.

Steve