Emu XL-7 & MP-7 User's Group

Hmmm ... what type of audio interface are using and does it have ASIO drivers? If you are using standard Windows drivers with an onboard soundcard you will get about that much latency. 
 
What you are hearing as you tweak your knobs could have actually been buffered for several hundred millisecs.
 
If you don't have a fancy, schmantzy interface, you can download Wunsch's ASIO4All. It is free and it gives you the ability for super low latency if you aren't using softsynths or a lot of plugins in your DAW since sequencing midi puts very little load on your computer.
 
 
DF

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--- On Fri, 12/17/10, James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@...> wrote:


From: James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@...>
Subject: [xl7] CS as DAW midi controller
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:21 AM


  



i've felt the CS makes a great Ableton/Kontakt controller since it throws CC's, etc
But is it me and just my PC's and/or interface... but is there latency there for you also?
I mean i've tried with the Motu Ultralite, Emu Midi X 2x2, and Native Audio 8 cards,
and it seems as if the CS is about a whole whole note step behind sometimes on knob movements. 
Twisting a knob sometimes is really when it shows.  In Ableton it's more apparent thank Kontakt because
I think Ableton is a bit bloated and requires more CPU usage.  It's definately not instant like hardware. 

Is it the CS or my old ass computers?  I've tweaked the latency in my interfaces software and it's all the same accept
for less and more dropouts.   Anyone else feel there is something to be desired or is it just me?
This is where I think the Command Station excels.

Sorry ... in your first post I didn't notice that you'd already been tweaking your buffers/ latency. 12ms is right about the borderline for 'live' feel play. ASIO4All might get you down to around 7ms with your current hardware.

At any rate, at 12ms there shouldn't be that degree of delay you described. Maybe it is a midi latency as opposed to audio latency problem? I can only say that I don't experience that when I trigger my command station with my master keyboard.

DF

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.

--- On Fri, 12/17/10, James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@gmail.com> wrote:

From: James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@...>
Subject: Re: [xl7] CS as DAW midi controller
To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:57 PM







 



  


    
      
      
      I'm using the Native Audio 8 interface.  I guess latency is 12ms verses its 5ms ASIO.  I am not sure if the Native interface works with ASIO drivers.
I may switch to the Hercules Deejay Trim 4+6.   But here is no point for "me" to buy a RME or Apogee or something terribly expensive since the computer is not my cup of tea as a sampler/sound module.   It sounds way too clean and thin for me.  There is something majorly lost in the conversion along the line verses old dirty samplers (something major).  In fact I have to sample hardware when even firing off clips so my ears don't freak out when I hear those glistening clean VST's taking over.  






On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:49 AM, D F Tweedie <bienpegaito@...> wrote:
















 



  


    
      
      
      Hmmm ... what type of audio interface are using and does it have ASIO drivers? If you are using standard Windows drivers with an onboard soundcard you will get about that much latency. 

 
What you are hearing as you tweak your knobs could have actually been buffered for several hundred millisecs.
 
If you don't have a fancy, schmantzy interface, you can download Wunsch's ASIO4All. It is free and it gives you the ability for super low latency if you aren't using softsynths or a lot of plugins in your DAW since sequencing midi puts very little load on your computer.

 
 
DF

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.


--- On Fri, 12/17/10, James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@...> wrote:


From: James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@...>
Subject: [xl7] CS as DAW midi controller

To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:21 AM


  

i've felt the CS makes a great Ableton/Kontakt controller since it throws CC's, etc
But is it me and just my PC's and/or interface... but is there latency there for you also?
I mean i've tried with the Motu Ultralite, Emu Midi X 2x2, and Native Audio 8 cards,

and it seems as if the CS is about a whole whole note step behind sometimes on knob movements. 
Twisting a knob sometimes is really when it shows.  In Ableton it's more apparent thank Kontakt because
I think Ableton is a bit bloated and requires more CPU usage.  It's definately not instant like hardware. 


Is it the CS or my old ass computers?  I've tweaked the latency in my interfaces software and it's all the same accept
for less and more dropouts.   Anyone else feel there is something to be desired or is it just me?

This is where I think the Command Station excels.

last night i discovered the joys of using multitracks in the cs. i sequence external modules with only a few internal sounds in the mix. i had been wondering how to tackle using song mode for arranging, and although it lets me record track mutes in real time, every time the next pattern comes around all of the mutes are reset to what they are in the pattern. then trying to back up a bit and micro edit is just useless and impossible since many times i will be using samples that need to be triggered from their start points.

i was thinking of just making 32 bar patterns and trying to arrange that way with micro editing but i can only seem to get a good arrangement using pattern mode and just mute and unmute tracks on the fly.

after using multitracks it opened up a new window. i can now lay down a short sequence, then combine the tracks into one multitrack channel. then erase the original tracks(save for the drums), and record another melody. then combine the tracks again to another multitrack channel and so on. so with just a four bar pattern i can have individual sequences on multitrack channels and it makes doing track mutes in real time much easier since i'm not muting all the individual elements.

if i were to run out of tracks i can make a copy of the pattern, and since i can cut and paste between patterns, use the second one as extra 'canvas'.

this gives me an idea for my dream sequencer, first of all with rubber mute buttons like the mmt8. it would have say 32 track buttons, and another 32 'sequence' buttons that you can copy multitrack data to.

i try and use the computer just for splicing audio with no added fx once inside. so i can record a song doing track mutes in real time and if i mess up i keep recording until i get it right. once in the computer i can cut out the errors and basically treat the wav files like editing tape.

i do hip-hop btw and don't use grid or step record and also am still novice in adding effects so ymmv.




--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, D F Tweedie <bienpegaito@...> wrote:
>
> Hmmm ... what type of audio interface are using and does it have ASIO drivers? If you are using standard Windows drivers with an onboard soundcard you will get about that much latency. 
> Â 
> What you are hearing as you tweak your knobs could have actually been buffered for several hundred millisecs.
> Â 
> If you don't have a fancy, schmantzy interface, you can download Wunsch's ASIO4All. It is free and it gives you the ability for super low latency if you aren't using softsynths or a lot of plugins in your DAW since sequencing midi puts very little load on your computer.
> Â 
> Â 
> DF
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication.
> 
> --- On Fri, 12/17/10, James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@...>
> Subject: [xl7] CS as DAW midi controller
> To: xl7@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:21 AM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> i've felt the CS makes a great Ableton/Kontakt controller since it throws CC's, etc
> But is it me and just my PC's and/or interface... but is there latency there for you also?
> I mean i've tried with the Motu Ultralite, Emu Midi X 2x2, and Native Audio 8 cards,
> and it seems as if the CS is about a whole whole note step behind sometimes on knob movements. 
> Twisting a knob sometimes is really when it shows.  In Ableton it's more apparent thank Kontakt because
> I think Ableton is a bit bloated and requires more CPU usage.  It's definately not instant like hardware. 
> 
> Is it the CS or my old ass computers?  I've tweaked the latency in my interfaces software and it's all the same accept
> for less and more dropouts. Â  Anyone else feel there is something to be desired or is it just me?
> This is where I think the Command Station excels.
>

i was talking about pattern mode. you can set each track to single or multi track. in pattern edit menu use the combine tracks function and it says combine selected tracks? then select the ones to combine and press enter. now all of the data is on the clipboard. then paste it to any track either in the current pattern or any other. just make sure the track your pasting to has been selected as multitrack a or b.  

you can also xplode the tracks back to their original tracks for editing etc. i haven't tried this function yet but read in the manual that when pasting combined tracks to another track which has not been designated a multitrack, then all of the original track routings will be lost, it will still paste the data but you can't xplode them later.

it's like a virtual mpc sequencer this way kind of? never used an mpc. but within a 4 bar pattern you can have 16 different 4 bar variations, and within a 32 bar pattern you can have 16 different 32 bar variations etc. 

the nice thing about this is you can seamlessly weave between variations while the sequencer is playing. i like this for experimenting since that's my method of making beats with different samples and change ups on each track. it takes a few cycles to get the timing right but it's fun and hands on for arranging. i cut out the step of plotting out a song on a time line and gets busy old school style =D  

of course you can also select the next pattern while the sequencer is playing and it plays after the current pattern is finished. also, from the 2.0 os upgrade you can hold tap while pressing enter when selecting the next pattern and it will carry over the mute settings. if you are using the trigger buttons to select tracks you press tap and the desired trigger for the same effect.

i think it was already mentioned but triggers is also something that looks interesting for chaining patterns together.

in the controllers menu you program the sixteen buttons to contain whatever patterns. and just select them while the sequencer is playing and they play in cue. you can also trigger them with the start key rapid fire style like with normal patterns(hold down play and tap stop). 

i almost got an asr-x and maybe an mpc as my first drum machine but couldn't imagine not having the dedicated track mute buttons. i just got the replacement switches from mouser too. command stations rock btw.







--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know what you're talking about because I don't know a darn thing
> about song mode.
> But does the trax let you queue up the next one while one is finished it's
> cycle before switching to the next pattern?
> I absolutely love that.  It makes the transitions flowing verses abrubt
> changes, and breaking the flow which is lame.
> 
> I'm thinking of buying or switching to an ASR-X!
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 1:08 PM, dutchbeats <dutchbeats@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > last night i discovered the joys of using multitracks in the cs. i sequence
> > external modules with only a few internal sounds in the mix. i had been
> > wondering how to tackle using song mode for arranging, and although it lets
> > me record track mutes in real time, every time the next pattern comes around
> > all of the mutes are reset to what they are in the pattern. then trying to
> > back up a bit and micro edit is just useless and impossible since many times
> > i will be using samples that need to be triggered from their start points.
> >
> > i was thinking of just making 32 bar patterns and trying to arrange that
> > way with micro editing but i can only seem to get a good arrangement using
> > pattern mode and just mute and unmute tracks on the fly.
> >
> > after using multitracks it opened up a new window. i can now lay down a
> > short sequence, then combine the tracks into one multitrack channel. then
> > erase the original tracks(save for the drums), and record another melody.
> > then combine the tracks again to another multitrack channel and so on. so
> > with just a four bar pattern i can have individual sequences on multitrack
> > channels and it makes doing track mutes in real time much easier since i'm
> > not muting all the individual elements.
> >
> > if i were to run out of tracks i can make a copy of the pattern, and since
> > i can cut and paste between patterns, use the second one as extra 'canvas'.
> >
> > this gives me an idea for my dream sequencer, first of all with rubber mute
> > buttons like the mmt8. it would have say 32 track buttons, and another 32
> > 'sequence' buttons that you can copy multitrack data to.
> >
> > i try and use the computer just for splicing audio with no added fx once
> > inside. so i can record a song doing track mutes in real time and if i mess
> > up i keep recording until i get it right. once in the computer i can cut out
> > the errors and basically treat the wav files like editing tape.
> >
> > i do hip-hop btw and don't use grid or step record and also am still novice
> > in adding effects so ymmv.
> >
> >
> > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com <xl7%40yahoogroups.com>, D F Tweedie
> > <bienpegaito@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmm ... what type of audio interface are using and does it have ASIO
> > drivers? If you are using standard Windows drivers with an onboard soundcard
> > you will get about that much latency.
> > > Â
> > > What you are hearing as you tweak your knobs could have actually been
> > buffered for several hundred millisecs.
> > > Â
> > > If you don't have a fancy, schmantzy interface, you can download Wunsch's
> > ASIO4All. It is free and it gives you the ability for super low latency if
> > you aren't using softsynths or a lot of plugins in your DAW since sequencing
> > midi puts very little load on your computer.
> > > Â
> > > Â
> > > DF
> > >
> > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain
> > confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use
> > of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or
> > disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the
> > Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended
> > recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the
> > communication.
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 12/17/10, James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: James Ulibarri <jamesulibarri@>
> >
> > > Subject: [xl7] CS as DAW midi controller
> > > To: xl7@yahoogroups.com <xl7%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Friday, December 17, 2010, 12:21 AM
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > i've felt the CS makes a great Ableton/Kontakt controller since it throws
> > CC's, etc
> > > But is it me and just my PC's and/or interface... but is there latency
> > there for you also?
> > > I mean i've tried with the Motu Ultralite, Emu Midi X 2x2, and Native
> > Audio 8 cards,
> > > and it seems as if the CS is about a whole whole note step behind
> > sometimes on knob movements.
> > > Twisting a knob sometimes is really when it shows. In Ableton it's more
> > apparent thank Kontakt because
> > > I think Ableton is a bit bloated and requires more CPU usage. It's
> > definately not instant like hardware.
> > >
> > > Is it the CS or my old ass computers? I've tweaked the latency in my
> > interfaces software and it's all the same accept
> > > for less and more dropouts. Â Anyone else feel there is something to be
> > desired or is it just me?
> >
> > > This is where I think the Command Station excels.
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
>

Guys,

it's actually very easy to use the CS as a DAW controller without
any hassles. Let me explain how.

1. If you've got an audio/MIDI interface with native ASIO drivers,
then use that. That will give you the best performance. Forget
ASIO4ALL, because that is only useful for cards without native
ASIO driver, and only as an emergency substitute. ASIO4ALL
will tax your computer much more, and there's no advantage
if you've got a real ASIO driver.

2. Don't forget that latency is measured/displayed differently
by vendors. Each is right, but you have to know what the numbers
mean, to adapt your system and environment.
This applies to both audio and MIDI latency.
There are vendors which will indicate input or output latency, in which
case you have to duplicate that to calculate the roundtrip latency,
which is the true system latency. So if you set up 12 msec as input latency,
then it's no wonder, you are struggling at approx. 24 msec to keep the
tempo/feel.

3. There's no quality difference between ASIO interfaces regarding
latency time. Yes, the top of the line interfaces can probably go as low
as 64 samples or 1.5 msec or even lower, but say, 5msec is available
in all the interfaces. An expensive interface won't provide any extra
at 5 msec compared to a entry level one, that is, with native ASIO drivers.

4. If you experience excessive latency using an ASIO driver, then something's
set up wrong. If you checked everything and still there's too much latency,
then use the DAW as a muted recorder, that is, LOCAL ON on the CS,
muted tracks in the DAW. This way you'll get the instant feel on the CS,
and when you unmute/play the tracks from the DAW everything should
be OK.



Regards,

    Zsolt | http://adsr.hu