Emu XL-7 & MP-7 User's Group

I am pleased to discover that the Command Stations are still being used by others. I bought mine off eBay a while ago and thought I was the only one still using it.

Currently I am mostly using it as a sequencer because of its arpeggiators.  The user patterns are incredibly powerful. It is easy to set up multiple patterns of different lengths, create polyrhythms, include triplets and dotted notes, etc. 

The two biggest limitations of the arp user patterns are:
 
1. Limited editing. There seems to be no way to insert a step in the middle of a pattern. To do this, I need to write down the pattern on a piece of paper and manually move all events one step to the right.

2. No Force to Scale. If I create a pattern with major intervals, when I play a C on the keyboard, it plays in C major.  When I play a D on the keyboard, it plays in D major. I think I need to edit the MIDI in a DAW to keep the piece in C major.

Am I missing any CS features to help with the above limitations?  Are there other hardware/software arpeggiators/sequencers that work in a similar way to the CS user patterns but go beyond these limitations?


So far I am not totally convinced on the CS as a sound source but I still want to explore it some more.  I love the flexibility of the patchcords and LFOs but prefer things that sound analog. I think DSP has progressed since the Z plane filters were created. If only Emu continued developing their products....

Does anyone have any favorite filter types that they rely on? I want to have another go at it tonight but it takes a long time to try out 50 filter types.

Regards,
Mike F

On 19/09/2010 21:59, analogsignal@... wrote:

> Are there other hardware/software arpeggiators/sequencers that work in a similar way to the CS user patterns but go beyond these limitations?

The Sequentix P3 and the forthcoming Cirklon sequencers have force to 
scale (that allows you define your own scales) but the arpeggiator is 
fairly basic until you start to introduce "aux events", when it becomes 
far more interesting.

-- 
Paul
---
"Marijuana is taken by musicians. And I'm not speaking about good 
musicians, but the jazz type." Harry J. Anslinger
http://www.smokyfrog.com

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Paul Nagle <paul@...> wrote:
> The Sequentix P3 and the forthcoming Cirklon sequencers have force to 
> scale (that allows you define your own scales) but the arpeggiator is 
> fairly basic until you start to introduce "aux events", when it becomes 
> far more interesting.

Hi Paul,

I am a lurker on the P3 mailing list so I am aware of the P3 and Cirklon even though I don't own them.  Although the P3 is very powerful, I think the CS user pattern arps have more flexibility in timing.  Looking at the P3 manual, it looks like you specify the Timebase and all notes start on the grid.

The CS user pattern arps can have notes of arbitrary duration so you can easily specify a pattern with 3 eighth notes, followed by 7 dotted 32nd notes, followed by 5 sixteenth note triplets, etc. Of course, this example is bound to be unlistenable but I like having this flexibility available to me. I guess there isn't one hardware sequencer that can do everything.

Regards,
Mike F

Sometimes I use my old Wacom tablet as a controller with software called wmidi on WinXP. It has about 300 scales. It won't convert major arp patterns to minor patterns to track a particular key, though. It will let you use the tablet pen to play notes in a particular scale. It can be found at: http://www.nicolasfournel.com/.

If you can get Jan Eidtmann's Prodatum software to work properly (I have had problems with later builds), it has an arp editor which beats using the front panel. You cannot shift and insert notes, but you can do some fast on the fly editing.  Proteum also has arp editing, but I haven't played with that feature enough to remember what it does and how it works.

I have experimented with midi data processing using a language/environment called ChucK. Its a bit buggy on a PC, it is supposed to be more reliable on Macs. You could probably write a script to play arps based upon a desired key. It would involve taking midi data from a controller, processing it using your script, and sending it to your sound module.

Hope this helps.

--Steve

PS: Welcome to the group!!!

On 20/09/2010 20:34, analogsignal@... wrote:

> I am a lurker on the P3 mailing list so I am aware of the P3 and Cirklon even though I don't own them.  Although the P3 is very powerful, I think the
CS user pattern arps have more flexibility in timing.  Looking at the P3 
manual, it looks like you specify the Timebase and all notes start on 
the grid.

It's a step sequencer so the best resolution is at tbase of 64. It also 
has delays per step that can add swing etc. However the P3 is out of 
production... the Cirklon will have full realtime stuff as well as step 
time and a bunch of groovy other things.

Continue lurking and all will be revealed... :)

-- 
Paul
---
"Marijuana is taken by musicians. And I'm not speaking about good 
musicians, but the jazz type." Harry J. Anslinger
http://www.smokyfrog.com

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Paul Nagle <paul@...> wrote:
> It's a step sequencer so the best resolution is at tbase of 64. It also 
> has delays per step that can add swing etc.

It's not really a question of resolution, the P3 and the CS user arps represent time differently. I could come up with a complex rhythmic pattern in a CS user arp in 10 seconds.  Then I could spend 15 minutes figuring out how to transfer it to the P3 by setting the timebase to 64ths and plotting out where on the grid each note falls.  This dotted 32nd note of my pattern starts on the 21st 64th note so I will set the note on there. Its duration is 3/64ths so I will follow the note with two ties...

The point is CS user arps let you easily go "off the grid."
  

>  the Cirklon will have full realtime stuff as well as step 
> time and a bunch of groovy other things.

I'm looking forward to reading the details.

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:
> Proteum also has arp editing, but I haven't played with that feature enough to remember what it does and how it works.

Thanks Steve. I just downloaded Proteum.  According to the documentation, it does allow you to insert and delete arp steps. It could be just the thing I'm looking for. I will test it out this weekend.

>>2. No Force to Scale. If I create a pattern with major intervals, when I play a C on the keyboard, it plays in C major.  When I play a D on the keyboard, it plays in D major. I think I need to edit the MIDI in a DAW to keep the piece in C major.<<

you might be able to use a custom tuning table for the preset. I edited the tuning of the notes I didn't want to hear to be the same as the notes I did want to hear. it's a bit laborious, but you can get the patch to stay in key & you can also get a bit creative with microtonal stuff, to emulate real CV/gate synths for instance, or more exotic instruments.
the user-tuning tables are down the far end of the master edit menu, I think, & you select the one you want for all four layers of the patch.

outside of that, midi solutions do a box called the super event processor, which can be programmed (with s/w on their site) to remap up to 32 note numbers onto any other note number, either on a single channel or on all channels. this is good for over five octaves... 
I've just done this & intend to install the processor in the back of a doepfer maq. the sequencer will then play a minor scale (of course!) which I can transpose by retuning the instrument it's connected to. 

hth-
duncan.

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "duncan" <goddard.duncan@...> wrote:
> you might be able to use a custom tuning table for the preset. I edited the tuning of the notes I didn't want to hear to be the same as the notes I did want to hear. 
> outside of that, midi solutions do a box called the super event processor

Thanks Duncan.  Two great ideas. I have another MIDI Solutions box that works very well.

In the short term, I will probably just record the MIDI in another sequencer and fix it up there since that will be easy. But if I keep using the CS arps, I will try out your ideas.

Using a custom tuning table in this way sounds like a very clever solution. Along these lines, let me share something someone else turned me on to. Its an older program called Scala which can be used for microtunings. I have only played with it a little, but I have used it to generate a test tuning table to upload to my P2500. Not sure it will help here, but I thought I'd mention it as long as tuning tables came up. http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/

Warning: For me the learning curve was rather steep (too steep, in fact, for me to go beyond basic testing to make sure it would work). Others may have more success with it. In the short run, it might be quicker to use the CS front panel (or software, if it allows creating tuning tables). In the long run, using Scala to generate tuning tables might open up creative possibilities with microtuning.

--Steve

 

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "analogsignal@..." <analogsignal@...> wrote:
>
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "duncan" <goddard.duncan@> wrote:
> > you might be able to use a custom tuning table for the preset. I edited the tuning of the notes I didn't want to hear to be the same as the notes I did want to hear. 
> > outside of that, midi solutions do a box called the super event processor
> 
> Thanks Duncan.  Two great ideas. I have another MIDI Solutions box that works very well.
> 
> In the short term, I will probably just record the MIDI in another sequencer and fix it up there since that will be easy. But if I keep using the CS arps, I will try out your ideas.
>

>>Using a custom tuning table in this way sounds like a very clever solution.<<

cheers, steve. I remember being absolutely thrilled to discover this feature in the audity 2000, as it solved a big problem for me with live use of the maq sequencer. until then, I'd been using an emu sampler with very laboriously built custom keyboard mapping & (obviously) sampled rather than synthesized sounds.

the manual for the p2k (& probably other units) has a big section on different tunings, but this...

>>Its an older program called Scala which can be used for microtunings.<<

sounds interesting too.

duncan.

> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@> wrote:
> > Proteum also has arp editing, but I haven't played with that feature enough to remember what it does and how it works.
> 

I did try out Proteum. It is useful for arp editing since it allows you to insert and delete steps.  However, it tends to crash if you edit the arp while its playing. Also I find it slower editing in Proteum than on the CS because Proteum requires a lot of mouse clicks.  I will continue editing arps primarily on the CS and use Proteum for occasionally inserting and deleting steps.

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "analogsignal@..." <analogsignal@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@> wrote:
> > > Proteum also has arp editing, but I haven't played with that feature enough to remember what it does and how it works.
> > 
> 
> I did try out Proteum. It is useful for arp editing since it allows you to insert and delete steps.  However, it tends to crash if you edit the arp while its playing. Also I find it slower editing in Proteum than on the CS because Proteum requires a lot of mouse clicks.  I will continue editing arps primarily on the CS and use Proteum for occasionally inserting and deleting steps.
>
Really. Can you give me the exact steps in Proteum that caused it to crash and, if I get time, I'll take a look, assuming I can remember how that bit worked :-(

I like this!!!!! I just did a test (tuning table: C major scale with all "accidentals" tuned down a 1/2 step; arp: 0, +4, +7, +4, +12, + 7, +4, 0) and am looking forward to taking advantage of this technique.

I never really used the user tuning tables before, but I can now see how 12 might not be enough. If I get into it, I might have to see about using my embedded sysex technique for banks of tuning tables.

Thanks for the tip!!

Steve

BTW, I editied the tuning table from the front panel, but since it was only lowering 5 notes per octave 1/2 step each it was not very time consuming.

Now I am wishing (1) we could name tuning tables and (2) we could save/load (sysex) each user table individually.


--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "duncan" <goddard.duncan@...> wrote:
>
> >>2. No Force to Scale. If I create a pattern with major intervals, when I play a C on the keyboard, it plays in C major.  When I play a D on the keyboard, it plays in D major. I think I need to edit the MIDI in a DAW to keep the piece in C major.<<
> 
> you might be able to use a custom tuning table for the preset. I edited the tuning of the notes I didn't want to hear to be the same as the notes I did want to hear. it's a bit laborious, but you can get the patch to stay in key & you can also get a bit creative with microtonal stuff, to emulate real CV/gate synths for instance, or more exotic instruments.
> the user-tuning tables are down the far end of the master edit menu, I think, & you select the one you want for all four layers of the patch.

Not being able to name a tuning is a bit annoying. I thought you could save and load a tuning as a bulk tuning dump sysx or, at least, that's what Proteum seems to be doing (it's another area I can't remember very well). I think it will also allow you to import Scala scale files and does either octave mode (a change to D changes all the Ds across the keyboard) or note mode (where a change to a note only affects that note). I never spent that long on tuning tables because I wasn't really sure what people would want to do with them.

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:
>
> I like this!!!!! I just did a test (tuning table: C major scale with all "accidentals" tuned down a 1/2 step; arp: 0, +4, +7, +4, +12, + 7, +4, 0) and am looking forward to taking advantage of this technique.
> 
> I never really used the user tuning tables before, but I can now see how 12 might not be enough. If I get into it, I might have to see about using my embedded sysex technique for banks of tuning tables.
> 
> Thanks for the tip!!
> 
> Steve
> 
> BTW, I editied the tuning table from the front panel, but since it was only lowering 5 notes per octave 1/2 step each it was not very time consuming.
> 
> Now I am wishing (1) we could name tuning tables and (2) we could save/load (sysex) each user table individually.
> 
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "duncan" <goddard.duncan@> wrote:
> >
> > >>2. No Force to Scale. If I create a pattern with major intervals, when I play a C on the keyboard, it plays in C major.  When I play a D on the keyboard, it plays in D major. I think I need to edit the MIDI in a DAW to keep the piece in C major.<<
> > 
> > you might be able to use a custom tuning table for the preset. I edited the tuning of the notes I didn't want to hear to be the same as the notes I did want to hear. it's a bit laborious, but you can get the patch to stay in key & you can also get a bit creative with microtonal stuff, to emulate real CV/gate synths for instance, or more exotic instruments.
> > the user-tuning tables are down the far end of the master edit menu, I think, & you select the one you want for all four layers of the patch.
>

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "emigr8" <emigr8@...> wrote:
> Really. Can you give me the exact steps in Proteum that caused it to crash and, if I get time, I'll take a look, assuming I can remember how that bit worked :-(

I will get back to you soon on this.

> > Can you give me the exact steps in Proteum that caused it to crash and, if I get time, I'll take a look, assuming I can remember how that bit worked :-(

Proteum crashes very often for me when I close the Edit Arp window after making a change while I am playing a pattern on the CS.  If the CS is not playing, it is much less likely to crash.

If you are thinking about improving the arp editor, I would love the ability to:

1. do all arp editing from the (computer) keyboard without touching a mouse -- sort of like the old school trackers.

2. copy and paste a step or several steps

I would also be appreciative if you could just eliminate the crashes without any other enhancements.

Thanks very much,
Mike

I have got it to crash now. Hmmm. Not sure why. My crash is something to do with tooltips, I think. Your crash sounds like a different one. I'll play and see if I can reproduce that as well.

Unfortunately, I am in the process of upgrading my DAW and don't yet have any dev tools on the machine (the disks are not at home at the moment). I'll take a look later this week, when I get back up and running properly.

Keyboard stuff should be doable using tabbing, but its very ugly and difficult, I agree. That's part of the reason I put in the MIDI import function (though that doesn't work as well as it could, either). I don't really know how other people implement this (custom arps are not something I use a lot). If someone could give me the kind of keyboard things that would help, I'll have a think. Copy and paste should be doable though. Having said that, Proteum was mostly written about five or six years ago, so there is probably a load of stuff I have forgotten. I'll get back to you.



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "analogsignal@..." <analogsignal@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "emigr8" emigr8@ wrote:
> 
> > > Can you give me the exact steps in Proteum that caused it to crash
> and, if I get time, I'll take a look, assuming I can remember how that
> bit worked :-(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proteum crashes very often for me when I close the Edit Arp window after
> making a change while I am playing a pattern on the CS.  If the CS is
> not playing, it is much less likely to crash.
> 
> 
> If you are thinking about improving the arp editor, I would love the
> ability to:
> 
> 1. do all arp editing from the (computer) keyboard without touching a
> mouse -- sort of like the old school trackers.
> 
> 2. copy and paste a step or several steps
> 
> I would also be appreciative if you could just eliminate the crashes
> without any other enhancements.
> 
> Thanks very much,
> Mike
>

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "emigr8" <emigr8@...> wrote:
>
> I have got it to crash now. Hmmm. Not sure why. My crash is something to do with tooltips, I think. Your crash sounds like a different one. I'll play and see if I can reproduce that as well.

For some reason, it is very easy to reproduce on my system. Why don't you attach some code to the Unhandled Exception event and do a stack dump to a file?  I could then send you the file.
 

> Unfortunately, I am in the process of upgrading my DAW and don't yet have any dev tools on the machine (the disks are not at home at the moment). I'll take a look later this week, when I get back up and running properly.

Thanks, no hurry. Only if you have time.


> Keyboard stuff should be doable using tabbing, but its very ugly and difficult, I agree.

Well, you can edit a step with the keyboard but I couldn't find a way to pick another step from the keyboard. But as you say, keyboard editing is currently difficult.


>If someone could give me the kind of keyboard things that would help, I'll have a think.

My ideal user arp editor would look like something like an Excel spreadsheet. I would like to use the up and down arrows to choose steps and the left and right arrows to choose step attributes (note offset, velocity, etc.) I would like be able to scroll around the grid quickly in this way.

Editing would be done in two possible ways:

1. Pressing Enter puts you in edit mode for the current cell. Now the same arrow keys let you quickly scroll through possible values. Pressing Enter again saves your change and takes you out of edit mode. Pressing Escape aborts your change without saving.

2. Typing a number followed by Enter changes the value for the current cell. For example, if you are currently on the Velocity attribute of a step, typing "105" followed by Enter, would change the velocity to that value.

I could spec out other aspects of my ideal editor if you are interested but I realize it would be a lot of work to code. In any case, this should give you some ideas to think about.

Regards,
Mike

Years ago (as I recall) someone somewhere did a database or speadsheet that would send midi data. Not sure if that was here, but it sounds like something that might be usable for on-the-fly pattern editing. I will see if I can find the source.

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "analogsignal@..." <analogsignal@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "emigr8" <emigr8@> wrote:
> >
> > I have got it to crash now. Hmmm. Not sure why. My crash is something to do with tooltips, I think. Your crash sounds like a different one. I'll play and see if I can reproduce that as well.
> 
> For some reason, it is very easy to reproduce on my system. Why don't you attach some code to the Unhandled Exception event and do a stack dump to a file?  I could then send you the file.
>  
> 
> > Unfortunately, I am in the process of upgrading my DAW and don't yet have any dev tools on the machine (the disks are not at home at the moment). I'll take a look later this week, when I get back up and running properly.
> 
> Thanks, no hurry. Only if you have time.
> 
> 
> > Keyboard stuff should be doable using tabbing, but its very ugly and difficult, I agree.
> 
> Well, you can edit a step with the keyboard but I couldn't find a way to pick another step from the keyboard. But as you say, keyboard editing is currently difficult.
> 
> 
> >If someone could give me the kind of keyboard things that would help, I'll have a think.
> 
> My ideal user arp editor would look like something like an Excel spreadsheet. I would like to use the up and down arrows to choose steps and the left and right arrows to choose step attributes (note offset, velocity, etc.) I would like be able to scroll around the grid quickly in this way.
> 
> Editing would be done in two possible ways:
> 
> 1. Pressing Enter puts you in edit mode for the current cell. Now the same arrow keys let you quickly scroll through possible values. Pressing Enter again saves your change and takes you out of edit mode. Pressing Escape aborts your change without saving.
> 
> 2. Typing a number followed by Enter changes the value for the current cell. For example, if you are currently on the Velocity attribute of a step, typing "105" followed by Enter, would change the velocity to that value.
> 
> I could spec out other aspects of my ideal editor if you are interested but I realize it would be a lot of work to code. In any case, this should give you some ideas to think about.
> 
> Regards,
> Mike
>

>>Not being able to name a tuning is a bit annoying.<<

agreed, but I arrived at a "standard" that I stick to, which works for me... ymmv, as they say. without getting too specific, I use the 12 tuning tables to make "shapes" of certain scales, by flattening the same notes in each octave for each table.

table one being a relative minor, table two being a phrygian... 

*so the tuning table sets the scale, the transpose sets the absolute pitch, & between them they establish the key of a patch.*

I can have a Cm patch & an Am patch that use the same tuning table, but when I play a C into the Am patch, it plays an A instead. 

then I create vanilla patches which are named for both the scale of the tuning table and also for the transpose, which is set in the edit menu of the preset. then it's just a case of editing those patches (changing the waveforms & so on) & resaving them. 

so I have a Dm sqr pulse, an Am sawtooth, a Cm marimba, & so on.

now, how useful this is to other folks I don't know, but I use this technique with a doepfer maq sequencer, & it means the sequencer can play the right notes in any key we want, without any external quantisation or transposition being applied.

I originally had a tuning table where every note was detuned by 3 or 4 semitones to achieve an Am scale. imagine how I kicked myself when I realised I could just transpose the Cm scale down.  :-)

d.

Does anyone know if using a tuning table changes the pitches of the notes that the CS transmits over MIDI?

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:
>
> Years ago (as I recall) someone somewhere did a database or speadsheet that would send midi data. Not sure if that was here, but it sounds like something that might be usable for on-the-fly pattern editing. I will see if I can find the source.

While it sounds interesting, it would not help me since I am using Proteum to edit the CS arps. I still like using the CS as a sequencer / arp player.

>>Does anyone know if using a tuning table changes the pitches of the notes that the CS transmits over MIDI?<<

definitely NOT. would be nice, though... :-)

Its been a long day, but I've found the problem. It's a very boring memory overwrite cause by another maximum/minimum error in the P2K. If you ask it for max/min of the ARP_PATTERN_STEP_SELECT it gives you 0 and 32, where it should be 0 and 31. Oh dear.

The fix is a bit more complicated as I am finding bits of code that seem to partially work round it and other bits that rely on the values given. My bad. Anyway, I'll get back when I have worked out the best way to fix.

Also, you idea of presenting it as a data grid sounds kind of neat. I might play with that the next time I get any time off. Bedtime now, though.
Regards,
Keith

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "analogsignal@..." <analogsignal@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "emigr8" <emigr8@> wrote:
> >
> > I have got it to crash now. Hmmm. Not sure why. My crash is something to do with tooltips, I think. Your crash sounds like a different one. I'll play and see if I can reproduce that as well.
> 
> For some reason, it is very easy to reproduce on my system. Why don't you attach some code to the Unhandled Exception event and do a stack dump to a file?  I could then send you the file.
>  
> 
> > Unfortunately, I am in the process of upgrading my DAW and don't yet have any dev tools on the machine (the disks are not at home at the moment). I'll take a look later this week, when I get back up and running properly.
> 
> Thanks, no hurry. Only if you have time.
> 
> 
> > Keyboard stuff should be doable using tabbing, but its very ugly and difficult, I agree.
> 
> Well, you can edit a step with the keyboard but I couldn't find a way to pick another step from the keyboard. But as you say, keyboard editing is currently difficult.
> 
> 
> >If someone could give me the kind of keyboard things that would help, I'll have a think.
> 
> My ideal user arp editor would look like something like an Excel spreadsheet. I would like to use the up and down arrows to choose steps and the left and right arrows to choose step attributes (note offset, velocity, etc.) I would like be able to scroll around the grid quickly in this way.
> 
> Editing would be done in two possible ways:
> 
> 1. Pressing Enter puts you in edit mode for the current cell. Now the same arrow keys let you quickly scroll through possible values. Pressing Enter again saves your change and takes you out of edit mode. Pressing Escape aborts your change without saving.
> 
> 2. Typing a number followed by Enter changes the value for the current cell. For example, if you are currently on the Velocity attribute of a step, typing "105" followed by Enter, would change the velocity to that value.
> 
> I could spec out other aspects of my ideal editor if you are interested but I realize it would be a lot of work to code. In any case, this should give you some ideas to think about.
> 
> Regards,
> Mike
>

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "emigr8" <emigr8@...> wrote:
>
> Its been a long day, but I've found the problem. It's a very boring memory overwrite cause by another maximum/minimum error in the P2K.

Thanks for tracking it down. Looking forward to the fix.

 
> Also, you idea of presenting it as a data grid sounds kind of neat. I might play with that the next time I get any time off.

Yes, it's an idea if you have free time at some point.  Just eliminating the crashes would be a huge improvement.

Regards,
Mike

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "duncan" <goddard.duncan@...> wrote:
>
> >>Does anyone know if using a tuning table changes the pitches of the notes that the CS transmits over MIDI?<<
> 
> definitely NOT. would be nice, though... :-)
>

Oh well. That's what I suspected. Thanks anyway.

Excellent tips!!!!

(BTW, if you ever want to share your bank of tuning tables, feel free to create a folder for Tuning Dumps and upload it.)

Steve
 

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "duncan" <goddard.duncan@...> wrote:
>
> >>Not being able to name a tuning is a bit annoying.<<
> 
> agreed, but I arrived at a "standard" that I stick to, which works for me... ymmv, as they say. without getting too specific, I use the 12 tuning tables to make "shapes" of certain scales, by flattening the same notes in each octave for each table.
> 
> table one being a relative minor, table two being a phrygian... 
> 
> *so the tuning table sets the scale, the transpose sets the absolute pitch, & between them they establish the key of a patch.*
> 
> I can have a Cm patch & an Am patch that use the same tuning table, but when I play a C into the Am patch, it plays an A instead. 
> 
> then I create vanilla patches which are named for both the scale of the tuning table and also for the transpose, which is set in the edit menu of the preset. then it's just a case of editing those patches (changing the waveforms & so on) & resaving them. 
> 
> so I have a Dm sqr pulse, an Am sawtooth, a Cm marimba, & so on.
> 
> now, how useful this is to other folks I don't know, but I use this technique with a doepfer maq sequencer, & it means the sequencer can play the right notes in any key we want, without any external quantisation or transposition being applied.
> 
> I originally had a tuning table where every note was detuned by 3 or 4 semitones to achieve an Am scale. imagine how I kicked myself when I realised I could just transpose the Cm scale down.  :-)
> 
> d.
>

>>create a folder for Tuning Dumps and upload it.<<

hmmm.... I didn't know I could do that. prob'ly be a good idea to archive the sys-ex somewhere anyway- it's a lot of work to have to do again... :-)

I'll get onto it soon.

d.

I created a folder in the Files section called Tuning Tables.

Unfortunately, the only option when saving them as sysex midi data is to save the whole bank of 12 user tuning tables. They can not be saved and reloaded inditividually (unless Keith, Jan, or anyone else has put that feature in their software).

So, if anyone uploads a bank of tuning tables and others want to test them out, they need to be sure to save their own tuning tables before uploading new ones.

I haven't looked at the tuning tables sysex in ages, but I think it is one continugous dump; I will double check this. 

Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "duncan" <goddard.duncan@...> wrote:
>
> >>create a folder for Tuning Dumps and upload it.<<
> 
> hmmm.... I didn't know I could do that. prob'ly be a good idea to archive the sys-ex somewhere anyway- it's a lot of work to have to do again... :-)
> 
> I'll get onto it soon.
> 
> d.
>

I assume you are talking about user tuning tables, the ones built in.  I know I played around with some alternate tables and even tried making some with scala--software related to alternate tunings.  I don't think I ever posted mine because they were not really finalized (i.e., complete with 128 tunings for midi notes 0 to 127).  I am not sure anyone else posted them. Hmmmmm. I didn't see any posted.

I do remember a discussion or two.  One user described using scale-linked tuning tables--tables in keys (F major, C minor, etc.) that worked well with arps so that arp patterns played notes only within the key signature. I remember giving that a go, but I don't think I set it up for the full 128 notes. I will have to look for that.

I seem to recall possibly using debug (an ms-dos) utility to edit the file rather than painstakingly dialing through the menus on the front panel. Not sure I ever tried editing tuning tables with Proteum or Prodatum, but those might be options.

I remember struggling with scala to get it to send the tables to my E-mu, but I seem to recall there were issues with the midi utility that was either recommended or bundled with it.

I now have OBS-Open Broadcast System and might be able to do some go through scala and record my monitor.  If I can get that done, maybe I can edit into a tutorial.  Are you interested in an particular type of alternate tuning?

Steve 

Quick reply.

(1) Congrats, and welcome.

(2) There is a technique of creating scaled alternate tuning tables (F Major, C minor, e.g.) that I have been told will create in effect a force-to-scale for arps. While there are only 12 user slots, it might be able to use embedded sysex to change tuning tables more or less on the fly.  If I am right, you might be able to designate tuning table as a force-to-scale table and then uses embedded sysex to change the scale at the start of a song.  Not sure if it would cause an audible glitch if you do it in the middle of a song.  I think a tuning table is around 400 bytes or so.

That being said, IIRC you don't have to change an entire table. If I am right you can use on the fly parameter value edits and only change the notes that need to be changed.

I have addressed embedded sysex elsewhere.

(3) Re: editing arps on the fly - you can sort of do that with Prodatum--however, I believe each change causes a write cycle.  So if you were to use a slider to move a step value through 32 values to get to the one you want, it is eating up 32 write cycles.  I am not 100% sure on this, but I believe there has been some discussion of it.

I'd have to take a look, but I do remember playing around and changing skips and end-points on the fly.  It might be possible to create an arp so you have skips in there that you can turn on and off.  If it IS possible, it might come close to being to add a step (more like having it there, but deleting it).  Again, I believe doing that a lot will eat write cycles.

(4) If you like softsynths, you might like the emulator x/proteus x.  The arps have been replaced with function generators that are far more complex.

(5) You might want to consider getting an EMu Ultra sampler and slaving it to the Command Station.  This will give you an unlimited array of sounds to choose from and still have the arps/sequencer.  Hmmm.  Now that I think of it, this might also help out with the force-to-scale issue.  Not sure on this, though.

Hope this helps.

Steve