Emu XL-7 & MP-7 User's Group

Well this is one of those things that I'm going to have be broad in my 
explainations, so feel free to ask for any clarifications.  And of course, 
these are all just generalizations, there are more exceptions to the rules 
than there are rules!

I think at the most basic level, popular dance songs are organized around 
8 bar sections (as you pointed out below).  It provides the dancers with a 
point of reference, a feeling of being able to anticipate the changes and 
adapt their dancing to that.  That's not to say that you have an 8 bar 
chorus, then an 8 bar verse, but certainly I think you'll find a lot of 
the fills and changes happen at the end of every 8 bars.  Drops in songs 
expecially seem to be multiples of this, you don't want to build people up 
and then hit them with the full on track before they feel it should hit, 
you get a dance floor full of people stumbling to catch up.  The oppposite 
can be used to good effect with skill, drawing out a build up until you 
think it just can't get more intense.

In general I don't think dance music follows a set verse chorus type of 
progression, unless perhaps it's remix of pop song where the vocals 
actually dictate that.   I think it tends to be more like the following 
(loosely):

Intro - DJ friendly to facilitate mixing (don't get me started on this 
one)
Body - Introduce the main elements of the song, establish the groove.
Drop/build - Strip away parts of the track, and then build it back up.
Body 2 - The full on version of the track, all of your main elements are 
going on, though probably with some slight variations fromt eh first bosdy 
to keep the interest up.
Outro - Again, somewhat DJ friendly to give them time to get the track in.

I think the number one thing that makes a good dance tune, other than a 
great hook of course, is variations.  You want to avoid repetition as much 
as possible, without leaving the groove.  Drum fills, dropping out beats 
for 8th measure, anything so that you're not listening to the exact same 
loop over and over again.  Avoid static presets, make use of really slow 
LFO's to keep your sound constantly evolving and interesting, yet still 
recognizeable.  IF you're coming up on large change to the structure of a 
song, give the audience some indication of it.  An often overused trick is 
the snare roll, or reversed cymbals.  Surprise in a song can be used to 
great affect, but not if it happens all the time, then it's just 
disconcerting.

rEalm




To take my stuff to the next level (and try to make up for some time) I 
want to hear artists describe their process and try to verbalize what they 
think makes that elusive difference. Sure, playing tfor the crowd takes 
you many 
places and there are no real rules to follow. But when I sit down and 
count-out the parts of the songs that I like and see the multiples of 8 
bars and how things come and go, I want to know why the artist or the 
producer decided on this structure.










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> I think at the most basic level, popular dance songs are 
> organized around 
> 8 bar sections (as you pointed out below). 

I say it's even more simplistic than that: typically "dual 4-bar"
sections.

-m@

Aaaah! Thanks, Erik. Now I understand a little of what to look for 
in my listening. Thanks for putting it to words. I can see where a 
DJ has a strong advantage here, having gotten as much crowd interest 
as possible with ancient tools prior to boxes like we have today, 
while traditional musicians have been locked into a set number of 
bars to fit their solos into. This is fun......Now i'll load up the 
XX7 and see what works together!
:)Mark



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, erik_magrini@B... wrote:
> Well this is one of those things that I'm going to have be broad 
in my 
> explainations, so feel free to ask for any clarifications.  And of 
course, 
> these are all just generalizations, there are more exceptions to 
the rules 
> than there are rules!
> 
> I think at the most basic level, popular dance songs are organized 
around 
> 8 bar sections (as you pointed out below).  It provides the 
dancers with a 
> point of reference, a feeling of being able to anticipate the 
changes and 
> adapt their dancing to that.  That's not to say that you have an 8 
bar 
> chorus, then an 8 bar verse, but certainly I think you'll find a 
lot of 
> the fills and changes happen at the end of every 8 bars.  Drops in 
songs 
> expecially seem to be multiples of this, you don't want to build 
people up 
> and then hit them with the full on track before they feel it 
should hit, 
> you get a dance floor full of people stumbling to catch up.  The 
oppposite 
> can be used to good effect with skill, drawing out a build up 
until you 
> think it just can't get more intense.
> 
> In general I don't think dance music follows a set verse chorus 
type of 
> progression, unless perhaps it's remix of pop song where the 
vocals 
> actually dictate that.   I think it tends to be more like the 
following 
> (loosely):
> 
> Intro - DJ friendly to facilitate mixing (don't get me started on 
this 
> one)
> Body - Introduce the main elements of the song, establish the 
groove.
> Drop/build - Strip away parts of the track, and then build it back 
up.
> Body 2 - The full on version of the track, all of your main 
elements are 
> going on, though probably with some slight variations fromt eh 
first bosdy 
> to keep the interest up.
> Outro - Again, somewhat DJ friendly to give them time to get the 
track in.
> 
> I think the number one thing that makes a good dance tune, other 
than a 
> great hook of course, is variations.  You want to avoid repetition 
as much 
> as possible, without leaving the groove.  Drum fills, dropping out 
beats 
> for 8th measure, anything so that you're not listening to the 
exact same 
> loop over and over again.  Avoid static presets, make use of 
really slow 
> LFO's to keep your sound constantly evolving and interesting, yet 
still 
> recognizeable.  IF you're coming up on large change to the 
structure of a 
> song, give the audience some indication of it.  An often overused 
trick is 
> the snare roll, or reversed cymbals.  Surprise in a song can be 
used to 
> great affect, but not if it happens all the time, then it's just 
> disconcerting.
> 
> rEalm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To take my stuff to the next level (and try to make up for some 
time) I 
> want to hear artists describe their process and try to verbalize 
what they 
> think makes that elusive difference. Sure, playing tfor the crowd 
takes 
> you many 
> places and there are no real rules to follow. But when I sit down 
and 
> count-out the parts of the songs that I like and see the multiples 
of 8 
> bars and how things come and go, I want to know why the artist or 
the 
> producer decided on this structure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person(s)or 
entity 
> to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or 
legally 
> privileged material. Delivery of this message to any person other 
than 
> the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive 
privilege 
> or confidentiality. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or 
other 
> use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information 
by 

> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you 
> receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the 
> material from any computer.
> 
> For Translation:
> 
> http://www.baxter.com/email_disclaimer
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

what if you're a dj who spins the exceptions?
IDM and such :D
dunno where i was going with this..

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, erik_magrini@B... wrote:
> Well this is one of those things that I'm going to have be broad 
in my 
> explainations, so feel free to ask for any clarifications.  And of 
course, 
> these are all just generalizations, there are more exceptions to 
the rules 
> than there are rules!
> 
> I think at the most basic level, popular dance songs are organized 
around 
> 8 bar sections (as you pointed out below).  It provides the 
dancers with a 
> point of reference, a feeling of being able to anticipate the 
changes and 
> adapt their dancing to that.  That's not to say that you have an 8 
bar 
> chorus, then an 8 bar verse, but certainly I think you'll find a 
lot of 
> the fills and changes happen at the end of every 8 bars.  Drops in 
songs 
> expecially seem to be multiples of this, you don't want to build 
people up 
> and then hit them with the full on track before they feel it 
should hit, 
> you get a dance floor full of people stumbling to catch up.  The 
oppposite 
> can be used to good effect with skill, drawing out a build up 
until you 
> think it just can't get more intense.
> 
> In general I don't think dance music follows a set verse chorus 
type of 
> progression, unless perhaps it's remix of pop song where the 
vocals 
> actually dictate that.   I think it tends to be more like the 
following 
> (loosely):
> 
> Intro - DJ friendly to facilitate mixing (don't get me started on 
this 
> one)
> Body - Introduce the main elements of the song, establish the 
groove.
> Drop/build - Strip away parts of the track, and then build it back 
up.
> Body 2 - The full on version of the track, all of your main 
elements are 
> going on, though probably with some slight variations fromt eh 
first bosdy 
> to keep the interest up.
> Outro - Again, somewhat DJ friendly to give them time to get the 
track in.
> 
> I think the number one thing that makes a good dance tune, other 
than a 
> great hook of course, is variations.  You want to avoid repetition 
as much 
> as possible, without leaving the groove.  Drum fills, dropping out 
beats 
> for 8th measure, anything so that you're not listening to the 
exact same 
> loop over and over again.  Avoid static presets, make use of 
really slow 
> LFO's to keep your sound constantly evolving and interesting, yet 
still 
> recognizeable.  IF you're coming up on large change to the 
structure of a 
> song, give the audience some indication of it.  An often overused 
trick is 
> the snare roll, or reversed cymbals.  Surprise in a song can be 
used to 
> great affect, but not if it happens all the time, then it's just 
> disconcerting.
> 
> rEalm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To take my stuff to the next level (and try to make up for some 
time) I 
> want to hear artists describe their process and try to verbalize 
what they 
> think makes that elusive difference. Sure, playing tfor the crowd 
takes 
> you many 
> places and there are no real rules to follow. But when I sit down 
and 
> count-out the parts of the songs that I like and see the multiples 
of 8 
> bars and how things come and go, I want to know why the artist or 
the 
> producer decided on this structure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person(s)or 
entity 
> to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or 
legally 
> privileged material. Delivery of this message to any person other 
than 
> the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive 
privilege 
> or confidentiality. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or 
other 
> use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information 
by 

> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you 
> receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the 
> material from any computer.
> 
> For Translation:
> 
> http://www.baxter.com/email_disclaimer
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On second thought, it's probably "quad 2-bar" actually.  Although I could 
see arguments for "octal 1-bar" as well.  :)

rEalm





"Matt Picone" <matman@...>
02/12/2004 03:03 PM
Please respond to xl7

 
        To:     xl7@yahoogroups.com
        cc: 

        Subject:        RE: [xl7] Song Structures


> I think at the most basic level, popular dance songs are 
> organized around 
> 8 bar sections (as you pointed out below). 

I say it's even more simplistic than that: typically "dual 4-bar"
sections.

-m@



 
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The information transmitted is intended only for the person(s)or entity 
to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or legally 
privileged material. Delivery of this message to any person other than 
the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive privilege 
or confidentiality. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other 
use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by 
entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you 
receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the 
material from any computer.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ala my first startment that there are more exceptions than rules.  :)  I 
spin the weird shit too, like Download and Plateau, and that stuff 
definitely doesn't fit into my descriptions below.  But, you should know 
how most people do it, to gain a better understanding and appreciation of 
the more esoteric stuff.

rEalm





infradead <infradead@...>
02/12/2004 09:48 PM
Please respond to xl7

 
        To:     xl7@yahoogroups.com
        cc: 

        Subject:        [xl7] Re: Song Structures


what if you're a dj who spins the exceptions?
IDM and such :D
dunno where i was going with this..

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, erik_magrini@B... wrote:
> Well this is one of those things that I'm going to have be broad 
in my 
> explainations, so feel free to ask for any clarifications.  And of 
course, 
> these are all just generalizations, there are more exceptions to 
the rules 
> than there are rules!
> 
> I think at the most basic level, popular dance songs are organized 
around 
> 8 bar sections (as you pointed out below).  It provides the 
dancers with a 
> point of reference, a feeling of being able to anticipate the 
changes and 
> adapt their dancing to that.  That's not to say that you have an 8 
bar 
> chorus, then an 8 bar verse, but certainly I think you'll find a 
lot of 
> the fills and changes happen at the end of every 8 bars.  Drops in 
songs 
> expecially seem to be multiples of this, you don't want to build 
people up 
> and then hit them with the full on track before they feel it 
should hit, 
> you get a dance floor full of people stumbling to catch up.  The 
oppposite 
> can be used to good effect with skill, drawing out a build up 
until you 
> think it just can't get more intense.
> 
> In general I don't think dance music follows a set verse chorus 
type of 
> progression, unless perhaps it's remix of pop song where the 
vocals 
> actually dictate that.   I think it tends to be more like the 
following 
> (loosely):
> 
> Intro - DJ friendly to facilitate mixing (don't get me started on 
this 
> one)
> Body - Introduce the main elements of the song, establish the 
groove.
> Drop/build - Strip away parts of the track, and then build it back 
up.
> Body 2 - The full on version of the track, all of your main 
elements are 
> going on, though probably with some slight variations fromt eh 
first bosdy 
> to keep the interest up.
> Outro - Again, somewhat DJ friendly to give them time to get the 
track in.
> 
> I think the number one thing that makes a good dance tune, other 
than a 
> great hook of course, is variations.  You want to avoid repetition 
as much 
> as possible, without leaving the groove.  Drum fills, dropping out 
beats 
> for 8th measure, anything so that you're not listening to the 
exact same 
> loop over and over again.  Avoid static presets, make use of 
really slow 
> LFO's to keep your sound constantly evolving and interesting, yet 
still 
> recognizeable.  IF you're coming up on large change to the 
structure of a 
> song, give the audience some indication of it.  An often overused 
trick is 
> the snare roll, or reversed cymbals.  Surprise in a song can be 
used to 
> great affect, but not if it happens all the time, then it's just 
> disconcerting.
> 
> rEalm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To take my stuff to the next level (and try to make up for some 
time) I 
> want to hear artists describe their process and try to verbalize 
what they 
> think makes that elusive difference. Sure, playing tfor the crowd 
takes 
> you many 
> places and there are no real rules to follow. But when I sit down 
and 
> count-out the parts of the songs that I like and see the multiples 
of 8 
> bars and how things come and go, I want to know why the artist or 
the 
> producer decided on this structure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person(s)or 
entity 
> to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or 
legally 
> privileged material. Delivery of this message to any person other 
than 
> the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive 
privilege 
> or confidentiality. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or 
other 
> use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information 
by 
> entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you 
> receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the 
> material from any computer.
> 
> For Translation:
> 
> http://www.baxter.com/email_disclaimer
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 
Yahoo! Groups Links



 






The information transmitted is intended only for the person(s)or entity 
to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or legally 
privileged material. Delivery of this message to any person other than 
the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive privilege 
or confidentiality. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other 
use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by 
entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you 
receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the 
material from any computer.

For Translation:

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