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What is the big deal about filters?

What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by Grant Richter

Maybe someone could clear up an ongoing mystery for me.

Why is it that some people make such a big stink about specific filters?

Like the transistor ladder (actually not a Moog design, the patent was invalidated). Why is that 
such a big deal? You need to use three oscillators with a transistor ladder just to get as big a 
sound as a single oscillator going through a Vactrol filter.

I know filters arte important for subtractive synthesis, but again, that is only one of many 
synthesis types.

There are tons of filters and filter designs, every filter has some distinct characteristics. Some 
are good for bass sounds, some are better for lead sounds. Each one has strengths and 
weaknesses depending on the application and the skill of the user.

Why is it that some people obsess over one filter and lose the opportunity to work with all the 
great sounds available from other filters?

Re: [wiardgroup] What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by amnesia

Just love it all.

The filter is a key aspect of a synths overall sound, When I think MS20 
I think crazy crunch filter, TB303 acid sound res filter etc... I am not 
obsessed with filters I just love them as much as the rest of the whole
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>

Re: What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by mrboningen

it's just fashion i guess!

i have four filters in my modular (moogerfooger mf-101 low pass, wiard
boogie, blacet filthy and CGS/Steiner Synthacon) and i will soon order
the wiard borg 2 as well, for a total of 5.

like you say grant, they all sound different and are all good. don't
worry about other people obsessing, just continue to make innovative
and high qulaity modules!

best wishes,

gregg

Re: [wiardgroup] What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by Spacemodular

--- Grant Richter <grichter@asapnet.net> wrote:


<snip>
> 
> Why is it that some people obsess over one filter
> and lose the opportunity to work with all the 
> great sounds available from other filters?
> 
> 
> 
Not me!
Having a variety of Filters is like having a large
collection of spices when cooking.

I appreciate the differences between the Boogie and
the Borg filters from the 1200 series. I can't wait to
get the Borg - it will be good next to my Boogie,
Sherman, SH-5 and Filter Factory. Not to mention all
of the wahs,and digital filters that I use as well...





 
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Re: [wiardgroup] What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by Sam Ecoff


On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:35 PM, Grant Richter wrote:

Maybe someone could clear up an ongoing mystery for me.

Why is it that some people make such a big stink about specific filters?

Being a filter lover, I thought I'd chime in...

I think that there are a few possible reasons people get silly about certain filters.

First, there's the possibility of "well, so-and-so used it on the landmark album 'Switched on Lucky Man', and I always wanted to sound like so-and-so, so that's the filter I have to have, even tho it's been out of production for 25 years and tracking a used one down will cost more than all of the modules currently offered in the Wiard lineup combined." (This having been said, I do own one of Bruce Duncan's 904a clones, and I must also admit that I teach a class at the conservatory based on Wendy Carlos's techniques).

Second, there's the possibility that the user lacks ability, and tries to compensate by buying more gear. "if I only owned this filter, then my music would be good, and I wouldn't suck anymore, and my girlfriend would stop screwing my neighbor, and my life will be perfect." (My confession - I was once a gear slut. I'm proud to say that I've not bought any hardware synths other than the occasional module for almost 4 years.)

I think the mania over certain filters is also fed by the fact that one can't go to one's local music store and try out different filters. Thus, one is left reading what others are using, what others think about certain filters, and from this, some filters gain legendary status, because what's written about the filter online becomes more important than how it actually sounds. I consider myself extremely fortunate that I actually got to try some Wiard modules in a store (Nova Musik) before making my initial purchase. I think that's the exception rather than the rule by a long shot, tho.

Like the transistor ladder (actually not a Moog design, the patent was invalidated). Why is that
such a big deal? You need to use three oscillators with a transistor ladder just to get as big a
sound as a single oscillator going through a Vactrol filter.

I would say that this falls into the category of legendary status. After all, it's the filter from the minimoog, and even those of us who've never actually played a mini know that all minimoogs sound great, and thus if we get one of these filters in our modular, we will sound great. (I hope the dripping sarcasm is coming through on your end.) ;-)

I know filters arte important for subtractive synthesis, but again, that is only one of many
synthesis types.

I think this gets back to the East Coast way of thinking about synthesis and the use of synthesizers. For many folks, there is no other synthesis method than subtractive synthesis, thus filters receive far more attention in many user's minds than they might otherwise. I will also say that while other methods of synthesis are certainly possible on a modular, they are not as practical (IMHO) on a modular as in the digital realm. Take additive, for example. My Kawai K5m from 1987 offers 128(!) oscillators per note, each with multi-step volume envelopes. I doubt many modular users could afford a setup like that. Even if you could, imagine trying to tune all those VCOs and EGs. Yuck!

Even FM synthesis is really pricey. I consider myself very fortunate to own three of Cynthia's Zeroscillators. I bought them when they were still $650 each instead of $995 each. Weigh that against the TX-7 module I just sold for $50. That's got twice the operators, include EGs, MIDI, and preset memory. Now, certainly, you can make effective arguments that other methods of synthesis are just as viable on a modular, and that's true to some extent, but I think it also has to do with the size of your set up, your skill level, and what kind of music you are trying to produce....

There are tons of filters and filter designs, every filter has some distinct characteristics. Some
are good for bass sounds, some are better for lead sounds. Each one has strengths and
weaknesses depending on the application and the skill of the user.

This is the prime reason that I have 9 filters in my rig currently, and I plan to double that number before all is said and done. Speaking of which... do you currently have a borg2 or boogie (blackface) in stock? I'd like to pick up one of each. Pls drop me an e-mail off list when you have a sec.

Kind regards,

Sam E.
_______________________________
Sam Ecoff
Secret Society Productions
5307 S. 92nd St. Suite 105
Hales Corners, WI 53130
(414) 427-0615
www.samecoff.com


RE: [wiardgroup] What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by Ingo Zobel

> Why is it that some people obsess over one filter and lose the
> opportunity to work with all the 
> great sounds available from other filters?


i never understood that too.

best wishes

ingo







http://www.dron.de
http://www.selfoscillate.de
http://www.signalform.de


		
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Re: What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by Gary Chang

"Grant Richter" <grichter@...> wrote:
>
> Why is it that some people make such a big stink about specific filters?
> 

Most analog synths have VCOs that don't output really clean sine
waves, so they rely on the filter to trim off every sound.  Some
systems, like the Buchla 200 series of the 70's, had as many as 10
VCOs that could output very clean sine waves, making additive
synthesis and fm viable without the use of filters practical.

Grant, of course, your 300 Series VCOs are such a device as the
Buchlas - i.e., they are capable of producing beautiful timbres
without filters.

gary

Re: [wiardgroup] Re: What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by Tyler Harwood

Oh! Two good replies in a row - the spice analogy is a good one. I've never felt that as much until now when using both Wiard filters - it's like thyme and oregano. Both delicious, delicate, excellent when combined with other choice ingredients.

Other modules add dramatic elements, and are more exciting because of the initial impression. Filters have character, oscillators do too in a similar way. It's like how guitar players obsess about different guitars and amps, drummers get attached to certain cymbals and no others will ever sound right, recording geeks swear by a specific overpriced preamp or whether the E or G series SSL EQ section sounds "more musical". When something you use resonates with your style it seems like the most important thing ever. Its subtle. It's different for everybody.

Wiard modules are special and they sound and act like they are special. I wouldn't trade mine for any other and am happy to patiently wait to see what the next amazing one will be, filter or not.
But for the sake of argument if I was going to really boil it down to one factor that differentiates filters (aside from what kind they are - eh!) I think it'd be resonance. Some sing and some sweeten. Different applications and genres of music call for different breeds of filter. I guess it's similar to how we all, synth nuts and not, obsess about the kinds of music we love. Like Gregg said: Fashion! And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be comfortable in your trousers (or lack thereof).



it's just fashion i guess!

i have four filters in my modular (moogerfooger mf-101 low pass, wiard
boogie, blacet filthy and CGS/Steiner Synthacon) and i will soon order
the wiard borg 2 as well, for a total of 5.

like you say grant, they all sound different and are all good. don't
worry about other people obsessing, just continue to make innovative
and high qulaity modules!

best wishes,

gregg


Re: [wiardgroup] What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by Norman Fay

I have a bunch of filters in my modular, listing them is the easiest way to add up how many:
Wiard Boogie
Wiard 300-borg
Wiard Omni
MOTM 480
MOTM 440
ModCan 01a ladder filter
Cyndustries quad lowpass gate
Serge VCFQX
Serge VCFX
Serge VCF2
Blacet Final Filtre.
Frostwave Resonator

12 altogether, not counting the phasers & MOTM resonator. Sometime I think about it and it seems ridiculous, 12 filters! But, I don't regret buying any of them, they all sound good, they all get used, none of them cost that much individually, and it's a pleasure to support, even in a small way, this diverse collection of cool people who make them. There wasn't/isn't any particular philosophy of buying any of them, other than "wow, that sounds like it would be really cool, and it's not too expensive, either". This attitude has got me into some great and inspiring musical instruments over the last 5 years or so, but of late it's got me stiffed out of money a couple of times, sad to say.

Favourites are the Borg, the MOTM 440 and the Serge VCF2. There is not one of them that I don't like.


On 11/13/06, Sam Ecoff <secoff@execpc.com> wrote:


On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:35 PM, Grant Richter wrote:

Maybe someone could clear up an ongoing mystery for me.

Why is it that some people make such a big stink about specific filters?

Being a filter lover, I thought I'd chime in...

I think that there are a few possible reasons people get silly about certain filters.

First, there's the possibility of "well, so-and-so used it on the landmark album 'Switched on Lucky Man', and I always wanted to sound like so-and-so, so that's the filter I have to have, even tho it's been out of production for 25 years and tracking a used one down will cost more than all of the modules currently offered in the Wiard lineup combined." (This having been said, I do own one of Bruce Duncan's 904a clones, and I must also admit that I teach a class at the conservatory based on Wendy Carlos's techniques).

Second, there's the possibility that the user lacks ability, and tries to compensate by buying more gear. "if I only owned this filter, then my music would be good, and I wouldn't suck anymore, and my girlfriend would stop screwing my neighbor, and my life will be perfect." (My confession - I was once a gear slut. I'm proud to say that I've not bought any hardware synths other than the occasional module for almost 4 years.)

I think the mania over certain filters is also fed by the fact that one can't go to one's local music store and try out different filters. Thus, one is left reading what others are using, what others think about certain filters, and from this, some filters gain legendary status, because what's written about the filter online becomes more important than how it actually sounds. I consider myself extremely fortunate that I actually got to try some Wiard modules in a store (Nova Musik) before making my initial purchase. I think that's the exception rather than the rule by a long shot, tho.

Like the transistor ladder (actually not a Moog design, the patent was invalidated). Why is that
such a big deal? You need to use three oscillators with a transistor ladder just to get as big a
sound as a single oscillator going through a Vactrol filter.

I would say that this falls into the category of legendary status. After all, it's the filter from the minimoog, and even those of us who've never actually played a mini know that all minimoogs sound great, and thus if we get one of these filters in our modular, we will sound great. (I hope the dripping sarcasm is coming through on your end.) ;-)

I know filters arte important for subtractive synthesis, but again, that is only one of many
synthesis types.

I think this gets back to the East Coast way of thinking about synthesis and the use of synthesizers. For many folks, there is no other synthesis method than subtractive synthesis, thus filters receive far more attention in many user's minds than they might otherwise. I will also say that while other methods of synthesis are certainly possible on a modular, they are not as practical (IMHO) on a modular as in the digital realm. Take additive, for example. My Kawai K5m from 1987 offers 128(!) oscillators per note, each with multi-step volume envelopes. I doubt many modular users could afford a setup like that. Even if you could, imagine trying to tune all those VCOs and EGs. Yuck!

Even FM synthesis is really pricey. I consider myself very fortunate to own three of Cynthia's Zeroscillators. I bought them when they were still $650 each instead of $995 each. Weigh that against the TX-7 module I just sold for $50. That's got twice the operators, include EGs, MIDI, and preset memory. Now, certainly, you can make effective arguments that other methods of synthesis are just as viable on a modular, and that's true to some extent, but I think it also has to do with the size of your set up, your skill level, and what kind of music you are trying to produce....

There are tons of filters and filter designs, every filter has some distinct characteristics. Some
are good for bass sounds, some are better for lead sounds. Each one has strengths and
weaknesses depending on the application and the skill of the user.

This is the prime reason that I have 9 filters in my rig currently, and I plan to double that number before all is said and done. Speaking of which... do you currently have a borg2 or boogie (blackface) in stock? I'd like to pick up one of each. Pls drop me an e-mail off list when you have a sec.

Kind regards,

Sam E.
_______________________________
Sam Ecoff
Secret Society Productions
5307 S. 92nd St. Suite 105
Hales Corners, WI 53130
(414) 427-0615



Ok then, what filter?

2006-11-13 by mmcgrath@synercard.com


OK you Wiard-heads! This filter talk has got me thinking I should get my first Wiard flter soon. I have a Noise Ring and some joysticks, and will be ordering a pair of JAGs soon, and was going to order my first Wiard filter next.....maybe I should bump the filter purchase sooner!

I'm looking for suggestions to that most vexing of questions - "Boogie or Borg?"

I've got a Blacet Final Filtre, a Blacet Filthy Filtre, and a Blacet Dual Filter. Also have a Bananalogue VCS which does nice LPG sort of stuff, and an EHX Bi-Filter.

What Wiard filter would YOU get first, and why??

Thanks!This e-mail is confidential and may be privileged and/or proprietary. If you are not the intended recipient, any review, disclosure, copying, or use of this e-mail is prohibited.

Re: [wiardgroup] What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-13 by Paul Schreiber

I think that for the average user, the filtering is
the quickest and easiest way to get a 'new sound'.
Filters really only need 3 knobs (Intinal Cutoff,
Resonance and FM Depth) and by turning these 3 knobs,
most filters will generate a wide range of tones that
are "musically useful". And the average user can dial
in something they like in less than 30 seconds.

Also, if you have multiple filters in a system, these
3 knobs basically "do the same thing" and so it's easy
to compare the different sounds in a quick and
straight-forward manner.

Contrast this to say a DX-7. Unless you spend a LOT of
time (and have a good memory), it's hard to recall
what changing the carrier ratio on the 3rd sine
operator of algorithm #14 does. And changing that
ratio will be *different* on algorithm #5 in terms of
what tone is made. Certainly, the 1 person that took
the time made a LOT of money (Bo Tomlyn) but I suspect
he tweaked more than not. If the DX-7 had no presets
at all it would not have been a success.

The same is true for additive synths (K250/Kawai K5,
etc). What does changing the attack time of the 6th
sine harmonic do? Same goes for most wavetable synths:
can you draw me up a good violin? No, because the
harmonics change over time. What about waveguide
(remember the Yamaha VL-1?). That had 4X the numbers
to juggle over FM! And no matter what you did, you
made funny flutes :)

Paul S.



 
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Re: [wiardgroup] Ok then, what filter?

2006-11-13 by Chris Sawyer

Well, before picking one I'll attempt to convince you to buy them together! I use the Boogie and Borg 2 in combination all the time. I love the sound of the Borg 2 highpass and will often use this in series with the Boogie lowpass, which is especially lovely using the 6db+24db outputs. I personally think Boogie as VCF -> Borg 2 as VCA / Low pass gate is the "essential" Wiard subtractive patch.
That said, if I had to pick one I would pick the Borg 2, because I find it more flexible in application and more representative of the Wiard's unique character. The fully sweepable mode response allows you to find some sweet timbres that lie between the extremes of lowpass and highpass, and using the aux out you can definitely capture that "MS-20" grit. Whereas most filters to my ears are not particularly pleasant at the edge of self-oscillation, the Borg 2 sounds very musical even there. In my use, the transition is smoother than on the original 300-series Borg, whose resonance can wail in a hurry! Finally, the Borg 2 is very effective as a VCA.
Best wishes with your decision - either way I'm confident you will not be disappointed!
Chris Sawyer

Re: Ok then, what filter?

2006-11-13 by drmabuce

trumped again!
(Dang! you guys are fast today)

i hate to sound so "me too" about it, but i just couldn't agree more
with Chris' very well articulated recommendation. 
BorgII + Boogie > [sum of it's parts]
and , like Chris, i'd start with the BorgII because it's a more
versatile design.

 But 

  if you're a fan of the East-Coast paradigm, the Boogie is a very
precise filter with rock steady CV response and this really shows when
applied to low frequencies. 
  i think the Blacet designs are very 'bright' with a lot of top end
so a Boogie might complement them well.

  but don't deprive yourself of the Borg experience because of some
conceptual construal of bandwidth specs. ...sooner or later .... get
'em both.

best,
-doc




--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Sawyer"
<paradigmshiftbeats@...> wrote:
>
> Well, before picking one I'll attempt to convince you to buy them
together! I use the Boogie and Borg 2 in combination all the time. I
love the sound of the Borg 2 highpass and will often use this in
series with the Boogie lowpass, which is especially lovely using the
6db+24db outputs. I personally think Boogie as VCF -> Borg 2 as VCA /
Low pass gate is the "essential" Wiard subtractive patch.
> 
> That said, if I had to pick one I would pick the Borg 2, because I
find it more flexible in application and more representative of the
Wiard's unique character. The fully sweepable mode response allows you
to find some sweet timbres that lie between the extremes of lowpass
and highpass, and using the aux out you can definitely capture that
"MS-20" grit. Whereas most filters to my ears are not particularly
pleasant at the edge of self-oscillation, the Borg 2 sounds very
musical even there. In my use, the transition is smoother than on the
original 300-series Borg, whose resonance can wail in a hurry!
Finally, the Borg 2 is very effective as a VCA.
> 
> Best wishes with your decision - either way I'm confident you will
not be disappointed!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Chris Sawyer
>

Re: [wiardgroup] Re: Ok then, what filter?

2006-11-13 by mmcgrath@synercard.com


Thanks....that confirms what I'm already thinking - Borg first

but I agree - there's no way I'll be depriving myself of either of these, I'm sure I'll have 'em both within a few month

thanks for the reply!

cheers,

Michael McGrath
Manager, Engineering & Training Services
Synercard - HID Global
T: (819) 777-6687 ext. 3124
C: (613) 614-6753
F: (819) 777-8114
E: mmcgrath@synercard.com




"drmabuce"
Sent by: wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com

13/11/2006 03:24 PM

Please respond to
wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com

To
wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com
cc
Subject
[wiardgroup] Re: Ok then, what filter?





trumped again!
(Dang! you guys are fast today)

i hate to sound so "me too" about it, but i just couldn't agree more
with Chris' very well articulated recommendation.
BorgII + Boogie > [sum of it's parts]
and , like Chris, i'd start with the BorgII because it's a more
versatile design.

But

if you're a fan of the East-Coast paradigm, the Boogie is a very
precise filter with rock steady CV response and this really shows when
applied to low frequencies.
i think the Blacet designs are very 'bright' with a lot of top end
so a Boogie might complement them well.

but don't deprive yourself of the Borg experience because of some
conceptual construal of bandwidth specs. ...sooner or later .... get
'em both.

best,
-doc

--- In
wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Sawyer"
wrote:
>
> Well, before picking one I'll attempt to convince you to buy them
together! I use the Boogie and Borg 2 in combination all the time. I
love the sound of the Borg 2 highpass and will often use this in
series with the Boogie lowpass, which is especially lovely using the
6db+24db outputs. I personally think Boogie as VCF -> Borg 2 as VCA /
Low pass gate is the "essential" Wiard subtractive patch.
>
> That said, if I had to pick one I would pick the Borg 2, because I
find it more flexible in application and more representative of the
Wiard's unique character. The fully sweepable mode response allows you
to find some sweet timbres that lie between the extremes of lowpass
and highpass, and using the aux out you can definitely capture that
"MS-20" grit. Whereas most filters to my ears are not particularly
pleasant at the edge of self-oscillation, the Borg 2 sounds very
musical even there. In my use, the transition is smoother than on the
original 300-series Borg, whose resonance can wail in a hurry!
Finally, the Borg 2 is very effective as a VCA.
>
> Best wishes with your decision - either way I'm confident you will
not be disappointed!
>
> Chris Sawyer
>


This e-mail is confidential and may be privileged and/or proprietary. If you are not the intended recipient, any review, disclosure, copying, or use of this e-mail is prohibited.

Re: [wiardgroup] What is the big deal about filters?

2006-11-14 by Ingo Zobel

> 12 altogether, not counting the phasers & MOTM resonator.  Sometime I
> think
> about it and it seems ridiculous, 12 filters!


hehehe thats not ridiculous. i have around 30 different
filters in my modular, that is ridiculous.

best wishes

ingo




http://www.dron.de
http://www.selfoscillate.de
http://www.signalform.de




	
		
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